@ abdulwastecx, I just feel I should ask you this question. Who do you think is culpable in this issue?


I see a lot of people blame the builder, the engineer. I don't have anything against them. That's how much they understood about project management. They have little or no idea on how to handle complex structures. So it's fair to assume the builder is the man to blame just as the developer and Jack Baeur is blaming the engineer.
But the truth be told, MDUs/MTU projects is more than a one-man show or selling of spare parts. It's not a chicken coop project.

FYI, it's only the governor who approves construction of MTUs in Lagos state.

Your thought on this will be highly appreciated.

Slow progress but getting there.

Aventures:
lekki gardens structure collapse, it is quite unfortunate. May the soul of the victims rest in peace and God will grant their family and loved ones fortitude to bear the loss.

A wake up call to everyone. Some packagers are blabbing all manners of building terms they are not even practicing themselves all over social media, so happy about unfortunate incident that claims life and can as well rendered so many people jobless eventually. The jobless one can turn to kidnapper tomorrow and kidnap you for ransome in order to survive.

Yes it very right to say the truth, not only Lekki Gardens are doing such a shuddy job, they are the thief caught today. Prime waters was raining some times ago, but when they had their own cup of tea at Panti area of Lagos, multistorey whort a billion colapse without casualties they learn their lesson. Mike Adenuga GLO house also has it's own share of collapse during construction at Challenge in ibadan, almost on a rocky land, is that a lekki or Ajah Land?. Synagogue structure that collapse was it built on Lekki- Ajah land.

In a situation like this our presentation matters a lot. Before you remove a spec in someone eye please remove the log in your own eyes.

Natural disaster, can only be tamed by God and No technology per say. May God always keep us save. Amen

Structural collapse can be as result of factors unpredictable ( higher magnitude earthquake above the level allowed for during the design stage,) liquidification of the foundation, volcanic eruption etc.

Structural failure can also result from lack of proper understanding of soil property like bearing capacity, settlement rate, shear stress, soil classification etc.

It may also results from lack of proper analysis and design of structural members of the building

It may also result from poor construction techniques etc.

Structural failure can happen to any developer irrespective of been a professional or quack

Intelligent discussion in progress.

abdulwastecx:


Structural failure can happen to any developer irrespective of been a professional or quack

God bless you for this!

So you agree with me that "Building collapse is not about you alone, it's about the environment"

I'll be offended now if you don't answer my question above o. "Who do you think is culpable in this issue?"

brabus:
@ abdulwastecx, I just feel I should ask you this question. Who do you think is culpable in this issue?


I see a lot of people blame the builder, the engineer. I don't have anything against them. That's how much they understood about project management. They have little or no idea on how to handle complex structures. So it's fair to assume the builder is the man to blame just as the developer and Jack Baeur is blaming the engineer.
But the truth be told, MDUs/MTU projects is more than a one-man show or selling of spare parts. It's not a chicken coop project.

FYI, it's only the governor who approves construction of MTUs in Lagos state.

Your thought on this will be highly appreciated.

From the picture from the collapsed structure, the failure is a structural failure of the superstructure ( ground floor). Super structure failure may be due to under reinforcement, inadequate section of structural members, poor construction techniques etc.

From the above, the major blame will falls on the structural engineers to show his design calculation and all is assumptions, if physical and laboratory investigation of the debris, failed concrete section and steel from scene of the collapsed building . Their sizes noted and compared to what was specify by the engineers. If the results conform to his design, then he is to be blame. If those results are different from his designs then the blame will be on the contractors.

Government also play a role to make sure that structures are properly built to conform with lay down codes in other safe life and property of the general public .

abdulwastecx

Bingo! You are the second person who made my day today after crisisng.

Lagos state government, come and read o.

abdulwastecx,

On such a project, how do you think the active role of the Consultants (Structural, Civil, Mechanical and Electrical) can help in prevent a major failure? You'll agree such a project will definitely have consultants.

So I take it my comments are not welcome here

brabus:
Intelligent discussion in progress.

brabus:
abdulwastecx,

On such a project, how do you think the active role of the Consultants (Structural, Civil, Mechanical and Electrical) can help in prevent a major failure? You'll agree such a project will definitely have consultants.

The problem is how many of the so called structural engineer understand structural analysis and design?

I am a civil engineering graduate that has been taught by PhD orders and registered engineers, most of which can not do simple manual structural analysis such as continues beams, folded plate, shear failure in slope, etc. Civil engineering/ structure involve lot of mathematics, if you don't understand maths no matter your degree and accreditation you may not understand the basis of design

The problem is most of the consultancy film uses softwares that they don't really know how they work or copy drawings without proper design etc.

Soil is very important, so how many project have a detail soil analysis?.
How competent are these analysis?
Are they carried out with the correct instruments and precautions?
How competent are the people carrying out these investigation etc?

Building construction is a complex trade that you keep learning everyday to be better and you try as much as possible to do something that will not kill you or kill other and may not land you in jail

Oga Abdul,
Don't get me wrong I totally agree with your comments. My question is how many Developers/Builders/Engineers follow these rules to the nth degree? How many people do soil analysis? How many projects do you know that have met all these criteria?

The whole issue boils down to one single word - Accountability

Until people are held fully accountable (and punished when they fail) we will keep experiencing this.

If this happened in China do you know what will happen? All the people responsible will be killed.

I am not advocating this but trust me once we are held accoutable for our actions alot of these avodable incidents will be vastly reduced.

abdulwastecx:


The problem is how many of the so called structural engineer understand structural analysis and design?

I am a civil engineering graduate that has been taught by PhD orders and registered engineers, most of which can not do simple manual structural analysis such as continues beams, folded plate, shear failure in slope, etc. Civil engineering/ structure is a mathematics in nature if you don't understand maths no matter your degree and accreditation you will not understand the basis.

The problem is most of the consultancy film uses softwares that they don't really know how they work or copy drawings without proper design etc.

Soil is very important, so how many project have a detail soil analysis?.
How competent are these analysis?
Are they carried out with the correct instruments and precautions?
How competent are the people carrying out these investigation etc?

Building construction is a complex trade that you keep learning everyday to be better and you try as much as possible to do something that will not kill you or kill other and may not learn you in jail

Here's my thought:

Corruption and politics play a major role throughout the construction industry in Nigeria. Developers are able to exert their influence in order to get around the law or to convince officials to allow what they want and how they want it; except for few estates (owned by uniformed men and those in touch with class) where stringent conditions are met before getting approvals.

There's an instance where construction of the collapsed structure have been stopped and building sealed off for contravening the law according to the reports, but sadly the developer unsealed the site. I believe the developer was able to take advantage of the deficiencies in the system through his connections to political allies and his wealth. Not only did he make sure that inspections were rarely performed by his paper qualified consultants, he was also able to bribe officials to build on a reclaimed plot of land, add additional floors to the building, and worse still convince the poor workers to enter the building despite the cracks and warnings from engineers.

There were so many different factors that could lead up to the collapse of the Horizon, making it difficult to pinpoint one issue as the deciding fault. The building itself had structural integrity issues due to to the weak soil beneath it and increased loads due to additional floors. So, it's safe to say that the physical issues combined with an inspection system that failed to carry out an integrity check on the building (or maybe checked but didn't bother to provide result), the dummy consultants, the zombie (follow-follow) contractor and cease construction order due to the unsafe nature of the building that was unsealed, resulted in the collapse of the building and the deaths and injuries to the workers.

Everyone is just dancing to one man's tune. The man who play's the piper... is the man to be held responsible.

crisisng:
So I take it my comments are not welcome here

But this is the norm in Nigeria, isn't it?
What are you suggestions on how this can be avoided in the future?

brabus:
Here's my thought:

Corruption and politics play a major role throughout the construction industry in Nigeria. Developers are able to exert their influence in order to get around the law or to convince officials to allow what they want and how they want it; except for few estates (owned by uniformed men and those in touch with class) where stringent conditions are met before getting approvals.

There's an instance where construction of the collapsed structure have been stopped and building sealed off for contravening the law according to the reports, but sadly the developer unsealed the site. I believe the developer was able to take advantage of the deficiencies in the system through his connections to political allies and his wealth. Not only did he make sure that inspections were rarely performed by his paper qualified consultants, he was also able to bribe officials to build on a reclaimed plot of land, add additional floors to the building, and worse still convince the poor workers to enter the building despite the cracks and warnings from engineers.

There were so many different factors that could lead up to the collapse of the Horizon, making it difficult to pinpoint one issue as the deciding fault. The building itself had structural integrity issues due to to the weak soil beneath it and increased loads due to additional floors. So, it's safe to say that the physical issues combined with an inspection system that failed to carry out an integrity check on the building (or maybe checked but didn't bother to provide result), the dummy consultants, the zombie (follow-follow) contractor and cease construction order due to the unsafe nature of the building that was unsealed, resulted in the collapse of the building and the deaths and injuries to the workers.

Everyone is just dancing to one man's tune. The man who play's the piper... is the man to be held responsible.

abdulwastecx:

From the above, the major blame will falls on the structural engineers to show his design calculation and all is assumptions, if physical and laboratory investigation of the debris, failed concrete section and steel from scene of the collapsed building . Their sizes noted and compared to what was specify by the engineers. If the results conform to his design, then he is to be blame. If those results are different from his designs then the blame will be on the contractors.

Now, you raised a very important issues here that only few can discern. And shockingly, 90% of those who understand its meaning won't be bold enough to talk about it. This is no longer a beer parlour gist.

It will be good to ask all those building here to ask their structural engineers where they got figures they use to calculate the LOADS (live and dead) and determine ALLOWABLE IMPOSED LOADS on each structure when soil test is not carried out and most time they do not even bother to ask questions from the architect, home owners and consultants on the type of materials they intend to use for the finishes. Most time, they just assume.

Pls prove me wrong if I'm lying.

brabus:


As a peace loving person, I resolved with my Oga to pay him 50% of the said amount to which I ve transferred 50k almost 3 weeks ago.

The wahala just resumed yesterday when Oga say where is his balance. I will go back to Nairaland to make trouble. I will transfer back the 50k to you. Blah blah blah.

And wetin I go when the money no dey!

So afterall, Brabus can behave like a gentleman?

Hmmm... wetin we no go see for this 2016!

So, this man wey dey order Don Moen at will cant phuck-out just 400K in one go!

Anyway, that is by the way.

I like it when people "grow sense", it shows you are not the heady, "try-me-if-you-can" guy that l thought you were.

It is a commendable attitude, that you have negotiated with your creditor without much fuss.

But Maverick, you sef fall hand small sha! No word to the House, once money starts changing hands?
Not even by PM!

Anyway, lesson learned.

Since Brabus has taken steps to do the right thing, l think we should all give him a break.
Our (my own personal interest) is that he does the right thing.... which he has shown good faith to do.

I hereby revert back to "Normal Mode" as far as Brabus is concerned. No hard feelings.

Nor do so again. If you cant "guarantee it", dont be a middle-man of any sort.

brabus:


Now, you raised a very important issues here that only few can discern. And shockingly, 90% of those who understand its meaning won't be bold enough to talk about it. This is no longer a beer parlour gist.

It will be good to ask all those building here to ask their structural engineers where they got figures they use to calculate the LOADS (live and dead) and determine ALLOWABLE IMPOSED LOADS on each structure when soil test is not carried out and most time they do not even bother to ask questions from the architect, home owners and consultants on the type of materials they intend to use for the finishes. Most time, they just assume.

Pls prove me wrong if I'm lying.

I'm building a bungalow and my town planning authority doesn't require structural engineering for structures such as mine.

The rest is due diligence and various personal experiences.

Today is my lucky day. I won 3 back-to-back even though I went for a double.

EgunMogaji:


I'm building a bungalow and my town planning authority doesn't require structural engineering for structures such as mine.

The rest is due diligence and various personal experiences.

You're exempted. You're building a chicken coop Discharged and acquitted.

abdulwastecx:


The problem is how many of the so called structural engineer understand structural analysis and design?

I am a civil engineering graduate that has been taught by PhD orders and registered engineers, most of which can not do simple manual structural analysis such as continues beams, folded plate, shear failure in slope, etc. Civil engineering/ structure involve lot of mathematics, if you don't understand maths no matter your degree and accreditation you may not understand the basis of design

The problem is most of the consultancy film uses softwares that they don't really know how they work or copy drawings without proper design etc.

Soil is very important, so how many project have a detail soil analysis?.
How competent are these analysis?
Are they carried out with the correct instruments and precautions?
How competent are the people carrying out these investigation etc?

Building construction is a complex trade that you keep learning everyday to be better and you try as much as possible to do something that will not kill you or kill other and may not land you in jail

l saw the below in the picture of the Lekki Gardens.

Am l the only one that noticed that the Parapet was done at a stage, indicating that the building was to be roofed at that level but strangely, more floors were added ontop!

Could this be a contributing factor......... extending the building higher to make more money

Question to ask your Structural Engineer?

What's the allowable bearing soil pressure?
What's the total live load?
What's the total dead load?
What's the assumed floor finishes load?
Columns, Brickwall, Beams, Roof materials
What's the assumed concentrated live loads?
What's the assumed distributed live loads?

This is where we get it all wrong. We do not have idea of what data our structural man used in computing the allowable imposed loads, yet we buy finishing materials based on our taste and not design requirement.

Next thing, you'll blame the builder. It's like blaming the Vulcaniser for overloading... how i fit talk am sef. Abeg use your church mind, decipher the thing jare.

This one no be packaging o! Just confront facts with figures.

crisisng:
But this is the norm in Nigeria, isn't it?
What are you suggestions on how this can be avoided in the future?

Let's give them a "Brabus' treatment"

abdulwastecx:


Government also play a role to make sure that structures are properly built to conform with lay down codes in other safe life and property of the general public .

Forget the government. The people in power are bereft of ideas. In 2011, a client (from the US) asked me why he needs an overhead water tank and I started to explain. He was like "Shi.t! I don't see that here and the water runs"

Meanwhile, our government is still commissioning public boreholes, community well, public toilet etc in 2016. So what role do you think such can play. If you dig this issue very well, the hands of major government agencies on this matter are not clean. No be LASBCA! Imagine, none of the painted Lekki Gardens structure was marked but the unpainted one. Thats to tell you that even in face of disaster, they still can't protect our interest.

Can you see the date the X was marked? Don't be surprised if all the houses in Lagos is marked X tomorrow. It's our government at work.

brabus:
Question to ask your Structural Engineer?

What's the allowable bearing soil pressure?
What's the total live load?
What's the total dead load?
What's the assumed floor finishes load?
Columns, Brickwall, Beams, Roof materials
What's the assumed concentrated live loads?
What's the assumed distributed live loads?

This is where we get it all wrong. We do not have idea of what data our structural man used in computing the allowable imposed loads, yet we buy finishing materials based on our taste and not design requirement.

Next thing, you'll blame the builder. It's like blaming the Vulcaniser for overloading... how i fit talk am sef. Abeg use your church mind, decipher the thing jare.

This one no be packaging o! Just confront facts with figures.

If l as a "lay man" should ask you all these, wont you start wondering whether l am an Engineer.......... or how is a poor man who just wants to build his shack know all these?

I think these is where the Consultant or even a knowledgeable Builder should come in.
They can ask the necessary questions on behalf of the House owner.

I once asked one of Nairaland 'Geotechnical" Engineer to do a Soil test for me.
When l showed the result to my Consultant/Structural Engineer, he just said "This is very bad". You will have to do another test!

That so-called Engineer just did rubbish, packaged the result and bind it for me, since l dont know jack about Soil test!
He was expecting that l will just ask him to start building, since he also claimed to be a Builder.
I did not waste time before discharging him.

Imagine if l did not see a Consultant Engineer, at the sides?

Well ...Honest Disagreement is often a good sign of progress....Mahatma Gandhi

Excuzeme:


If l as a "lay man" should ask you all these, wont you start wondering whether l am an Engineer.......... or how is a poor man who just wants to build his shack know all these?

I think these is where the Consultant or even a knowledgeable Builder should come in.
They can ask the necessary questions on behalf of the House owner.

I once asked one of Nairaland 'Geotechnical" Engineer to do a Soil test for me.
When l showed the result to my Consultant/Structural Engineer, he just said "This is very bad". You will have to do another test!

That so-called Engineer just did rubbish, packaged the result and bind it for me, since l dont know jack about Soil test!
He was expecting that l will just ask him to start building, since he also claimed to be a Builder.
I did not waste time before discharging him.

Imagine if l did not see a Consultant Engineer, at the sides?

If familiarising yourself with those terms is what will help you protect yourself and your own from disaster, you better start learning by heart baba. I'm telling you the reality.

At least, each project must have an independent Consultant/Structural engineer (well paid) who will carry out integrity checks and conformity test at critical stages of work.

I did a project for a nairalander in 2012. The Consultant/Structural engineers' certificate is tied to the building project. You need to see how the man keeps coming to site to check the work and beg me "Bosun, e se dada o. E pe mi before casting o"
Today, we (myself and the consultant) are building together at Lekki II. He's just few metres away from my Browne Mews project and he was a happy man.

By now, we should be reading names of the people on that collapsed building project.

Finally, I have to expose what makes us standout in the area of delivering services, base on Granite.

This is the 30tons loading, that have always keep us in business.

If is not looking like this is never 30tons.

Today at Ajao Estate, I ran into this crowd(LandLord Association meeting) watch my truck disxharging

Chekitaut:
Finally, I have to expose what makes us standout in the area of delivering services, base on Granite.

This is the 30tons loading, that have always keep us in business.

If is not looking like this is never 30tons.

Today at Ajao Estate, I ran into this crowd(LandLord Association meeting) watch my truck disxharging

Ajao!!! Ilu nla. Dem fit thief anything... I had a funny experience there. Good that you're offloading in daytime.

But chekitaut, you no try at all. This one na "Bubu loading" or "Garri egba"

brabus:


You're exempted. You're building a chicken coop Discharged and acquitted.

I beg your pardon Sir, a padlock chicken coop

brabus:


Ajao!!! Ilu nla. Dem fit thief anything... I had a funny experience there. Good that you're offloading in daytime.

But chekitaut, you no try at all. This one na "Bubu loading" or "Garri egba"

...Beyond IMAGINATION. Our slogan

Chekitaut:
Finally, I have to expose what makes us standout in the area of delivering services, base on Granite.

This is the 30tons loading, that have always keep us in business.

If is not looking like this is never 30tons.

Today at Ajao Estate, I ran into this crowd(LandLord Association meeting) watch my truck disxharging

How I was something like this could be delivered to my site in Benin ... Nice one boss

Lekki Gardens sealed, police arrest contractor

Meanwhile, the police in Lagos says it has arrested the contractor handling the building.

Oladapo Badmus, spokesman of the command, made the disclosure to NAN on Tuesday, but he did not reveal where the arrested was made.

Badmus gave his name as Odofin Taiwo, adding that he was currently under investigation.

https://www.thecable.ng/lekki-gardens-sealed-police-arrest-contractor



___________

Key pointers for the Police

- Who issued the Contractor's Insurance Certificate? Which Insurance Company?
- Who issued the Performance Bond?
- Has the Contractor handled a similar project before in the last 2 years? Any certificate of fitness issued on completed projects?
- Which other projects are handled by the contractor in the last 12 months?
- Is the contractor registered member of any professional bodies?
- Who conducted the integrity tests on the contractor's project? If there is, who has the results?
- What was written on the LASBCA Contravention Notice? Did the Contractor gave the copy of the document to the estate developer or he just pocketed it? If he did, what was the action taken?
- Who issue clearance for milestone payments released to contractor? Do they carry out conformity test and all related test at each milestones?


SON
I no get time for Standards Organisation of Nigeria (SON). Hypocrisy is when you start to inspect the collapsed building sites while leaving out (the importer, manufacturers and producers) Iron Rod manufacturers, block manufacturers, PVC, electrical cables producers, doors & windows to ensure they conform to standards. If you don't know your job, open a thread on nairaland, people can help out.