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Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 3:49pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Scholar8200:The simple question, How does ANY of this mean Grace is not unmerited favor? I have been waiting for scriptural proof that 'grace is not unmerited favor', but NOTHING you have adduced save your own baseless claims and headline shows this. You can build all your arguments without going against 'grace is unmerited favor' statement because all you are saying does not in ANY way nullify this statement. Next time you set to demolish words of wisdom, quips,quote,statement,definition and so forth, you had better be sure; 1. You understand the phrase 2. You know the phrase is WRONG 3. You know what is RIGHT Once again, regardless of all your cliches and mishmash of scriptures and arguments, grace is unmerited favor. Those words are so profound and concise, they can't possibly be distilled further. Get a life apart from kicking against the goads |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 3:57pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
vooks:Your opinion is noted. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 3:59pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Scholar8200:On top of noting my opinion, How does any of what you did or the definition you gave of grace demonstrate that grace is not unmerited favor? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 3:59pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Yes, you might have been told to come to Jesus just the way you are, correct. But you dont remain just the way you are after coming to Him else you never truly came! Or you came and left. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2 Corinth 5:17 |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 4:01pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Scholar8200:How does this make Grace is not unmerited favor!? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 4:04pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
vooks:The focus of this thread is to correct the notion that grace is no more than forgiveness(what people actually mean this days when they say Grace is unmerited favour). Sure, we can never earn/merit grace however, we have a role to play in receiving and abiding therein by faith. While there are that will welcome Strong's definition of Grace as Favour, many are apt to deliberately over look the emphasis on Divine Influence and a result it should have in the life we live. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance grace, favor: From chairo; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude) -- acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace(- ious), joy, liberality, pleasure, thank(-s, -worthy) http://biblehub.com/strongs/greek/5485.htm |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 4:07pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Scholar8200: Question is, do their 'notion' subtract anything from the FACT that Grace is Unmerited Favor? You concede Grace is Unmerited You also concede Grace is favor Why is Grace not Unmerited Favor? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 4:12pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
vooks:But the false notion that emphasizes one aspect and despises the other aspect has to be corrected!That's the purpose here. There is this hymn that some saints sang at a meeting," It Pays to Serve Jesus". After the singing, the speaker came up to say," It Costs to serve Jesus". Point? There are perspectives that must be balanced! |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 4:35pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Scholar8200:You are certainly free to correct all the notions you can afford to,real or imagined, but the question is, is grace anything other than Unmerited Favor? There is this hymn that some saints sang at a meeting," It Pays to Serve Jesus". After the singing, the speaker came up to say," It Costs to serve Jesus". Point? There are perspectives that must be balanced!Perspectives notwithstanding, Grace is Unmerited Favor, and you have conceded as much. This makes you a contradiction because you claim Grace is NOT Unmerited Favor, while at the same time conceding Grace is just that! In your case, that would be like saying 'it does not pay to serve Christ' because you are 'balancing' 'it costs to serve Christ'! |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by ElCount: 8:09pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Grace is more than just "unmerited favor" infact the term "unmerited favor" is over-simplifying grace. Now going back to Jer 31:31 God talked about a new convenant and that was when the first convenant was still effective that is the law of Moses. In a bid to establish this new convenant God sent His son Jesus Christ to die for us thereby bringing "grace", that is to say the law was brought to us through Moses and "Grace" through Jesus Christ. Wouldn't want to go into so much details cause a lot can be said about grace and it cannot be exhausted, but as for people seeing grace as a license to commit sin that's wrong because it is written in Rom 6:1-3 that as Christ died we died with Him and have become dead to sin and also resurrected with Him. And in verse 6 it tells us that our old man was crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be destroyed and hence no longer slaves to sin. Again you can't talk about grace without talking about faith cause its written in Rom 4:16 "it is of Faith that it might be by Grace, to the end that the promise might be guaranteed to all seed..." Also in Rom 5:1-2 we find out that it is Faith that gives us access to Grace Well I just recommend the book of Romans for a better insight into grace it inexhaustible |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by ElCount: 8:12pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
Pls guys stop attacking the OP just enlighten him, no one knows it all, besides he didn't derail so much just dat the examples may be a little out of place |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 11:23pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
ElCount: Words and phrases may not cover entire theology but that does not make them WRONG. The phrase 'Grace is Unmerited Favor' is 120% accurate,just as as is a Muslim quip that Jesus was a prophet. We know He is more than a prophet, but He is still a prophet! Similarly, if there is more T Grace than Unmerited Favor, Grace remains Unmerited Favor plus that 'more' Saying Grace is NOT unmerited favor means either Grace is Merited,it is not Favor or is neither. Attacking such a profound and accurate truth senselessly in the name of Correcting misconceptions and notions' is lack of wisdom. The MOST distinguishing aspect of Grace is that it is unearned,free,nobody I entitled to it, and there is NOTHING you can do to qualify for it; the Grace is what qualifies you! The SECOND distinguishing aspect of Grace is that it is God who accepts man. Mary was said to be Highly favored' and some confused religionists pray to her for this. But Jesus said more blessed is he who does the will of God, and the will of God is to believe in Him. All these means UNMERITED FAVOR is lethally accurate |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 11:27pm On Mar 16, 2016 |
ElCount: The OP is busy 'attacking' others who he feels are IGNORANT. Nobody is attacking him, we are simply showing him the error of attacking a truthful statement in the name of Correcting and balancing misconceptions and notions' 1 Like |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 12:14pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
vooks:Anyway I pity the OP. Very confused christian! |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by oyeludef(m): 2:43pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
promisechuks:how about you pity ursef first for being a blind follower of joseph prince? Remove d log in ur eyes before attempting to help d op. Vooks isnt against the op's theology but against d misleading caption which suggests dat grace is earned. Grace is an unmeritted favor and much more. Make sure u experience d true grace because d type joseph prince talks whereby you can still live in and enjoy d pleasures of sin is fake. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 3:05pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
ElCount:Very Good!!! This summarises the thread and its purpose!!! Stay Blessed. Indeed, NO ONE merits Grace but they only gain an entrance therein who repent and believe. They only continue therein who watch, hold fast and overcome! They only enter into its final end who endure to the end! As per the highlighted, it is for such that this thread was opened! Those whose understanding of Unmerited favour is that which needs no appropriation and is just an act of forgiveness! And afterwards calls forth no labouring to enter into that rest but a passive sauntering on the broad way claiming unmerited favour, not as what the Bible reveals it is, but as a waiver to be presented at the narrow gate! |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 3:42pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
promisechuks: He is not confused. He raises some salient but ignored aspects of our faith. He is a wise man and a great teacher. Where he erred is in the misleading header of his post saying 'Grace is NOT Unmerited Favor!' He clearly believes Grace is unmerited favor so he contradicts himself but he goes on to give some powerful words of wisdom. That's all 1 Like |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 3:51pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
Scholar8200: You are dangerous tottering on the brink of a works salvation. Some quick questions; 1. Have you sinned today? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 4:18pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
vooks:This is where I stand: 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Ephesians 2:8-10 We are saved by faith NOT works. However, a proof of that faith is a life of good works else that faith is a hoax. 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. James 2:14,17,26 The work here referred to is what Paul described as the work of faith: 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ 1 Thessalonians 1:3 In another place he says faith worketh by love! Galatians 5:6b In fact, Grace purifies us and makes us zealous of good works (Titus 2:11-14) hence he who truly receives Grace will have these evidences except he is a reprobate: |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by ElCount: 8:17pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
vooks:Not in doubt about grace being unmerited favor, but defining it as that alone over-simplifies it, that's what am saying 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 9:13pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
ElCount:'Over-simplifies' is a figment of your bias. Jesus Christ is several things including 'holy child'. You can't pick needless fights with any of His his offices because it does not cover something else. For instance the phrase 'Lamb of God' does not cover His deity. Does the phrase 'over-simplify' Jesus? Similarly, Grace is Unmerited Favor is complete and it communicates whatever it does succinctly. It is just a phrase, a profound one. If you have a better definition you would do well to give us. If there is a misconception of what Grace entails, it certainly is due to ignorance, and not due to Grace is Unmerited Favor. This is why fighting the truth communicated by the phrase in the name of correcting this ignorance is unwise. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 9:17pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
Scholar8200: Have you sinned today Scholar8200? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by ElCount: 10:13pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
vooks:You misunderstand me, I am not being bias. Anyone who says grace is NOT unmerited favor is wrong (the OP needs to correct the title of the thread). What am saying is that in a bid to define Grace and you JUST say Grace is unmerited favor and you END there seems to over-simplify it because Grace is more than JUST unmerited favor. You gave an example with Jesus. Jesus is indeed the Lamb of God but He is not only the Lamb of God. Defining Him as that ALONE means that you re not truly acknowledging His Grandeur, Greatness, etc in its TOTALITY. That's what I mean with regards to Grace. Read my first post 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 10:30pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
vooks:No, I cant recall the Spirit or my conscience bearing witness to the contrary. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 10:48pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
vooks:Leave the pharisee christian! The guy hasn't known that the topic of this thread that he started is a kind of blasphemy and can take him in an express way to hell, because when grace is not unmerited, it is merit. Forget about the way his beating round the bush. That's how they go around preaching contradiction but I thank for the wave of the pure gospel going round the world. Just see how contradicting these statements are; 1. Grace is not an unmerited favour, but it is freely given. 2. No works can merit the gift of eternal life but you have to live rightly to gain eternal life and make heaven. 3. Jesus was condemned for our sins, but after accepting the lordship of christ you can be condemned of your sins; then what is the essence of christ's condemnation over sin? 4. Living above the law(grace) means to live more rightly than he that is under the law; yet the pharisee-christian cannot keep the 10 commandment and 630+ laws and do extra as a person who really lives above law by right living. 5. After accepting the gift of eternal life, you have to maintain it with your right living; please whose righteousness can maintain what his righteousness couldn't earn? 6. The law was not abolished but we are not under the law; please can law(moses) and grace(jesus) co-exist together? 7. Jesus; "whosoever that shall believe in me shall not perish." Then they say; if you only believe without doing the right thing you cannot be saved, let alone going to heaven but eternal life is a free gift and unmerited favour that is based on faith." 8. jesus was punished for the sins of the whole world, but sinners can be punished for their sins in this day of salvation. 9. When you are saved and do something bad, you are unsaved, but all our sins have being forgiven; so now God is a joker? So God can play injustice by punishing us for the sins he punished jesus for? 10: col 2"....ALL our sins where forgiven" but the all there doesn't include all the sins of our entire life, but all your sins till the day of your salvation; please, can there be all without a complete past, present and future? Is ALL = past - present - future? 11. By his stripes we WERE healed of our diseases(past, present and future) but by his death we are only forgiven of our past and not present and future till we ask for forgiveness. 12. There is no more condemnation to them that believe in christ, but the holyspirit convicts and tells us we are going to hell because of our bad we did; so the holyspirit is responsible for the condemnation of a believer. But at the same time the devil is the accuser of the brethen; please in this statement, what is the difference between the devil and the holyspirit? I think I should stop here. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 10:50pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
Leave the pharisee christian! The guy hasn't known that the topic of this thread that he started is a kind of blasphemy and can take him in an express way to hell, because when grace is not unmerited, it is merit. Forget about the way his beating round the bush. That's how they go around preaching contradiction but I thank for the wave of the pure gospel going round the world. Just see how contradicting these statements are; 1. Grace is not an unmerited favour, but it is freely given. 2. No works can merit the gift of eternal life but you have to live rightly to gain eternal life and make heaven. 3. Jesus was condemned for our sins, but after accepting the lordship of christ you can be condemned of your sins; then what is the essence of christ's condemnation over sin? 4. Living above the law(grace) means to live more rightly than he that is under the law; yet the pharisee-christian cannot keep the 10 commandment and 630+ laws and do extra as a person who really lives above law by right living. 5. After accepting the gift of eternal life, you have to maintain it with your right living; please whose righteousness can maintain what his righteousness couldn't earn? 6. The law was not abolished but we are not under the law; please can law(moses) and grace(jesus) co-exist together? 7. Jesus; "whosoever that shall believe in me shall not perish." Then they say; if you only believe without doing the right thing you cannot be saved, let alone going to heaven but eternal life is a free gift and unmerited favour that is based on faith." 8. jesus was punished for the sins of the whole world, but sinners can be punished for their sins in this day of salvation. 9. When you are saved and do something bad, you are unsaved, but all our sins have being forgiven; so now God is a joker? So God can play injustice by punishing us for the sins he punished jesus for? 10: col 2"....ALL our sins where forgiven" but the all there doesn't include all the sins of our entire life, but all your sins till the day of your salvation; please, can there be all without a complete past, present and future? Is ALL = past - present - future? 11. By his stripes we WERE healed of our diseases(past, present and future) but by his death we are only forgiven of our past and not present and future till we ask for forgiveness. 12. There is no more condemnation to them that believe in christ, but the holyspirit convicts and tells us we are going to hell because of our bad we did; so the holyspirit is responsible for the condemnation of a believer. But at the same time the devil is the accuser of the brethen; please in this statement, what is the difference between the devil and the holyspirit? I think I should stop here. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 10:54pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
ElCount:Okay. Since, it is over-simplified and more than just an unmerited favour. Please, I challenge you to bring up your meaning of grace, for us to know whether it is more than unmerited favour. Please I will appreciate you if you do. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 11:18pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
oyeludef:While you are freaking on the grace, the message of the cross, please note that I am not a follower of prince, I live my life by the 100% faith I have in christ alone. Secondly, prince doesn't preach enjoyment in sin, he preaches righteous consciousness rather than the gospel of condemnation and sin-conciousness that the devil is being armed with while condemning the church right from our church pulpits. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 11:35pm On Mar 17, 2016 |
Please why changing the OP? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by ElCount: 7:35am On Mar 18, 2016 |
promisechuks:look mehn, I can't give you a particular definition of Grace even though I can try just as I cannot give a particular definition of who Jesus is that's why he has so many names. But let me ask you this, if u define Grace as just unmerited favor and nothing else, how then do you account for Grace being the new convenant God said he will establish with us in Jer 31:31. Like I said previously the book of Romans can help, I can't keep going on in this merry-go-round of an argument . I don't think its getting us anywhere 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 8:22am On Mar 18, 2016 |
Scholar8200:When last do you recall Spirit or your conscience bearing witness to your sinning? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 8:26am On Mar 18, 2016 |
ElCount:Who said you 'end there'? When Jesus is called lamb of God, it does not 'just END there', that's specific for that purpose. In short, if the phrase does not encompass all there is to Grace, this does not automatically translate in the phrase being wrong, nor does it 'over-simplify' nothing. Point is you are barking at the wrong tree |
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