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Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 11:20am On Mar 18, 2016 |
promisechuks:Because that is the message of the thread as alluded to in the Op:
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Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 11:22am On Mar 18, 2016 |
promisechuks:Now when you say unmerited favour, what does that favour entail?(Answer using Scriptural references to back your points). |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 11:34am On Mar 18, 2016 |
promisechuks:Perhaps you need to re-read the Op. Noted. That's because you did not discern what the thread is trying to address. Quote this directly as stated by me Because all is appropriated by faith and we CAN fall from the faith if we do not take heed. Judgest thou? What then does the New Covenant promise of God writing His laws in our heart mean to you? Kindly show me where I said that. Now answer, did Jesus fulfil the law or abolished it? Quote relevant references. And faith worketh by love meaning no love means no faith! "If any man has not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of His" etc Ever found these in Scripture? Quote where this was written so that you can get more clarifications He that shall endure to the end shall be saved. What does that mean? We are not of them that drawback unto perdition... What does this imply? Be sure to quote where I said this and I will explain. Taking this issue, if one became sick again and does not appropriate by an active faith this Provision does he get healed ![]() You are treading thin ice here!!! Why didnt you finish that passage that says there is no condemnation ONLY for those who walk after the Spirit and not the flesh ![]() there are misrepresentations here; only God knows if they are inadvertent (needlessly) or deliberate. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 11:54am On Mar 18, 2016 |
Scholar8200: Regardless of what 'favor entail', is it MERITED in any way? Is it earned? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 12:58pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
vooks:Like I said before, it is neither merited nor earned. But then, when received, what does it entail? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 1:38pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Bro, It is UNMERITED. You got that right. What is the difference between a NT Saint like yourself and an OT Saint like Job? Are you BETTER at obeying God than them? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by promisechuks: 1:58pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
what verses prove that the law has being abolished |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by oyeludef(m): 2:39pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
promisechuks:So the church should be encouraged to continue living in sin abi? A person living in sin should be deceived that he is righteous already or wat exactly is ur point. Why did Jesus send letters through john to d seven churches in d book of revelation majorly to warn them? Joseph prince is a false teacher and d earlier u realize it, d better it will be for you 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 4:10pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
vooks: A NT saint is justified by faith in Christ and receives the Indwelling of the Spirit, quickened by the Latter, he is enabled (Grace) to please God in the deepest sense of the word. A NT saint is born of the Spirit, is adopted as a son through Jesus Christ, Is Indwelt and empowered by the Spirit (enabling him to fulfil the righteousness of the law which law is written on the table of his heart by the same Person Who wrote it on tablets of stone-the Spirit, only that this time the Writer indwells him as a Power and Revealer of the Life of He that fulfilled the Law). The OT saints (most of who were pleasing to God on account of their faith in Him) were rather limited as a result of the hardness of heart and that is why the high point of the NT is a transformation that begins from the heart and manifests in the life. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by malvisguy212: 4:21pm On Mar 18, 2016 |
vooks:you misunderstood the op, let me ask you. What is God’s requirement for salvation? What must a sinner do to be saved? Is faith the only requirement for salvation ? The correct view for this question is ; GRACE plus FAITH = salvation plus works. ( Not please, the work here imply the evidence of a saving faith).GOD message to the unbelievers is very clear: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved" (Acts 16:31). The message IS NOT surrender to His Lordship, it is believe on the Lord and be save. Because Grace is unmerited favor from God, then How can a sinner willingly believe on the Lordship of jesus ? He must do away with his favorite sin. Just as a tree cannot have apples unless it already has the nature of an apple tree, so a person cannot have a willingness and desire to believe in jesus unless he already possesses the new nature received by regeneration at salvation (2 Pet. 1:3-4). Thus, even the willingness and desire to submit to Christ’s rule are the result of, and not a requirement for, salvation.". Grace is not just unmerited favor from God, is more than that. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 2:01am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Scholar8200:In short, you are merely BETTER at keeping the Law? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 2:14am On Mar 19, 2016 |
malvisguy212:You are wrong on one too many accounts, I'm not even sure where to start let me ask you. What is God’s requirement for salvation? What must a sinner do to be saved? Is faith the only requirement for salvation ? The correct view for this question is ; GRACE plus FAITH = salvation plus works. ( Not please, the work here imply the evidence of a saving faith).GOD message to the unbelievers is very clear:And exactly what do you think is the meaning of 'believe'? Mental assent? The message IS NOT surrender to His Lordship, it is believe on the Lord and be save.What is 'believe'? And what do you believe? Because Grace is unmerited favor from God, then How can a sinner willingly believe on the Lordship of jesus ?By hearing the word of God. Faith comes by hearing He must do away with his favorite sin. Just as a tree cannot have apples unless it already has the nature of an apple tree, so a person cannot have a willingness and desire to believe in jesus unless he already possesses the new nature received by regeneration at salvation (2 Pet. 1:3-4).Nonsense. This means the 'willingness and desire to believe in Jesus' comes AFTER regeneration. But how would you be regenerated BEFORE believing? The order of salvation is simple; God draws you you his grace. As you respond to this drawing (you may opt to ignore it), you believe in Him, and immediately your sins are forgiven, you are regenerated, given a new nature, and the Spirit of God. One does not discard sins to become a Christian, one becomes a Christian to discard sins. Thus, even the willingness and desire to submit to Christ’s rule are the result of, and not a requirement for, salvation.". Grace is not just unmerited favor from God, is more than that.Confusion galore. Please study the word 'believe' |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 5:10am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Vooks, Scholar8200 you guys have settled on the fact that grace is unmerited. Now we move on to the next question as posed by Scholar8200 Scholar8200: This is the source of confusion for the extremist grace peddlers out there. Forget the dictionary here and lets dissect the scripture for what grace generally and specifically entails. I believe we can tell that by enumerating the components of the favour, the manifold (multifaceted) grace or free gifts. The first, we all agree is forgiveness. ... Second, salvation. Of course not merited because there are indeed men called to be vessels of wrath; Romans 9:22 | What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: We do all agree that the Spirit of God, Christ and the fruits and gifts of the Spirit of God are graces, right? The powers of God? These are the scriptures by which we know that all the above are gifts. Unmerited. But does that mean that everybody can have them? That is the real question. Gifts of God. These are without repentance(He does not take them away at any time). They are: His Son (Jn 3:16,Jn 4:10) His Spirit (Acts 8:20) These three are one. Due to the nature of God, whatever he gives is not an end to itself. So His gifts give on: HIS SON Gifts of Jesus Gift of grace(Rom 5:15), given for our justification(verse 16) Gift of righteousness(Romans 5:17) Gift of grace This are gifts that come through the work of the grace of God in us. They are for ministry, enumerated in (Eph 4:11); Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, teachers. Fruits of righteousness(2 Cor 9:10, Mat 3:8, Phil 1:11) Fruits of the Holy Spirit are also the fruits of righteousness. They are sown in peace(james 3:18) HIS SPIRIT Fruits of the Holy Spirit(Gal 5:22) These are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness,goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, against which there is no law(and therefore, no snare, which means they are the best weaponry against the works of wickedness.) Gifts of the Spirit These are also the gifts of grace: Prophesy(1st Cor 14:1, 1st Cor 12:10) Speaking in unknown tongues (1st Cor 14:2, and their interpretation(v.10) Wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Christ(Eph 1:17, Ex 28:3) Exellence and knowledge(1st Cor 8:12, Ex 28:3) Faith(1 cor 8:9) Healings(1st cor 8:9) Working of miracles(v.10) Discernment of spirits(10) GIFTS OF THE SPIRIT These gifts keep giving on. The best of which are: Fruits of the gift of knowledge of Jesus (1 pet 1:5- ![]() To faith, add virtue, to virtue, knowledge, to Knowledge, temperance, to temperance, patience, to patience, Godliness, to godliness, brotherly kindness, to brotherly kindness, charity. Gifts of wisdom(Prov 4:9)wisdom has fruits(James 3:17) These are ornaments of grace, or a crown of glory. Remember the personality of Jesus is wisdom(1 cor 1:30)Its the gifts come to full circle. Its good with an inheritance, and by it there is profit there is profit to them that see the sun.(Ecc 7:11) The gifts/fruits of wisdom are: Riches(prov 14:24) Honor(prov 4:18) Multiply your days(prov 2:11) Rule and inheritance(prov 17:2) Increase sorrow(Ecc 1:18, 6:4,7,7:7)(this is because of the increase in knowledge of the perversion of justice by the sons of darkness.) Wisdom is a defence(Ecc 7:12) Strengthens (Ecc 9:18) Makes their face to shine, gives boldness(Ecc 8:1) Heard more than the fool(Ecc 9:17 The list is by no means exhaustive. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 5:20am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks:We need to differentiate here between works under the old testament (which were a shadow of the new testament) and works under the laws of Christ. Hebrews 10:1 | For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. So what purpose did the DAILY sacrifices serve? Do we need a different form of a daily sacrifice, one under the laws of Christ. Yes we do... Luke 9:23 | And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. You should realize that all sacrifices and offerings and other Levitical laws were in actuality Prophetic, or signs of the works of righteousness. A shadow of a real thing that we now have. Now we have the Spirit of God that empowers us to live in righteousness of the spirit. Righteousness that is not hidden. It's a light that shines (light actually defined as works of righteousness); Matthew 5:14 | Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Matthew 5:15 | Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Matthew 5:16 | Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 5:50am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2:It is also a source of confusion for extremist Legalists, modern Pharisees if you wish. The key to understanding all is is to examine the righteousness of God which is by faith in Jesus Christ. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 5:56am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks: Then let us. What entails righteousness? Better yet, Is a righteous man different in any way(character/works) from an unrighteous? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 7:30am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2:It's a complex concept but basically it means RIGHT standing with God.....or blameless I wish to remind us that Paul kept the Law Philippians 3:6 (KJV) Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. Which makes me ponder, what value did Paul's conversion confer seeing he was already blameless as far as the Law was concerned? He answers this question in the next few verses; Philippians 3:9 (KJV) And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: He ran to Christ, fleeing from the righteousness of the Law, which is based on omission/commission to righteousness of Christ which is by faith. Obviously the righteousness of Christ by faith is more valuable and incomparable to the righteousness of the law. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 8:12am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks: Agreed.
And what law was Paul referring to? He was a Pharisee by proffession. A teacher and door of the law. If you would consider the religious practices of the jews at his birth, it was a continuation of the laws of Moses. I agree with you here,
Which is why I believe you have decided to ignore any reason so long as it challenges the "you do not have to do anything notion". This is something I have agreed to, and even distinguished above : Muafrika2: So we agree, Paul found a better deal in the new covenant. What am not sure we agree on is whether Paul's light shined for all people to see. And whether he thought change of character mattered to believers. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 9:15am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2: Nope, Obviously change of character matters, and nobody disputes that. My question is whether this change of character is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST WHICH IS BY FAITH. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 9:54am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks: Righteousness is different from character. The character is a fruit of righteousness. By which we can by reverse tell between the righteous and the unrighteous... Matthew 21:43 | Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. We should agree that God hates men who are full of unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate(strife), deceit, malignity; whisperers(backbiters),Romans 2:8, 1:29 Anyone can go ahead and do the above as a Christian. I assure that persons spirit will be affected. The presence of God/ anointing of God will seep out like from a tap. And you'll be opening a door for spiritual attacks/it creates vulnerability in Christians. It's actually one way of testing powers. And, faith has its works... which a Christian who doesn't bother to produce, will ignore and quench the Spirit of God. It's very easy to backslide when the Spirit of God goes silent. And there are all sorts of people in churches not bringing forth any fruit. You tell them they don't have to do anything, you've sent them to their destruction.
The above quoted scripture explains what works a Christian should be doing. These are the works of righteousness under the covenant of Christ. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 10:02am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2: Good points, we now know character is not righteousness, but exactly what is RIGHTEOUSNESS OF CHRIST WHICH IS BY FAITH? Is it doing/not doing ABCD....? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 10:05am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks:Pls Where did you get that from the post you quoted? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 10:09am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Scholar8200:From your post; Scholar8200:Again,you are merely BETTER at keeping the Law? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 10:51am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks:But that is not the only sentence there? Why selecting that alone? As Romans 8 says, we fulfil the righteous demands of the law when we walk in the Spirit, but that is not all there is to Romans 8. Kindly consider the whole post and not just that sentence (evidently edited) |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 10:54am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2:Thanks a lot!!! Indeed, can all these and many more be received without faith? And when received do we remain just the same way we came? Or do we change only in a positional or judicial sense? GOD FORBID! We call ourselves Pentecostals, claim the Baptism with the Spirit, expect manifestations of the Spirit as 1 Corinth 14 shows but overlook or dispense with the manifestation of the Spirit as Romans 8 and Galatians 5:22-25 shows! In other words the gifts must manifest(perhaps we love the show) but the fruits are a passive positional deposit (because the flesh must be mortified and self denied)?! We tell the seeker of the Spirit's baptism that there must be manifestations by the Spirit but we tell the new convert that (in spite of the Spirit that indwells him through faith) that we must remain slaves to sin!!! It is this disparity that is being addressed. Both should be balanced. 1 Like |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 11:15am On Mar 19, 2016 |
vooks: Well thank you for asking me a question you just avoided; Muafrika2: There is no righteosness without faith. It's impossible to please God without faith. Character is testimony to the presence or absence of righteosness. Godly Character is in fact the righteousness of men. Because God is love. He Is Patient, Merciful, Good, Longsuffering, Kind, ... This is what we who believe in Him are continually being turned into. UnGodly character is wickedness. And this is my answer,(feel free to post YOU TAKE of what being in right standing with God as you said righy er oddness is means. Try and remove character out of it and see.) So God's character is in fact what our righteosness is. Is righteosness a noun or a verb? If a verb, it's an act. If a noun, then the definition, which cannot be complete without the action. There is a spiritual difference between a righteous spirit and an unrighteous one. The spirits of men are not passive entities. Before GOD, A human spirit Is Either glorifying Him, thus a Living, continuous sacrifice. It takes resolve to continually crucify our flesh. Righteosness does not exist in a vacuum. It's a work of faith. And this is how you can see righteousness; - faith, virtue, knowledge (Godly), temperence, patience, Godliness, brotherly kindness, charity; (which you have overlooked in my last post): - Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/2-Peter-Chapter-1/#6 As I also just posted, the spirit of the wicked on the other hand is continually in this state; .. fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate(strife), deceit, malignity; whisperers(backbiters),Romans 2:8, 1:29. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Nobody: 11:45am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Indeed, and for Christians, If you ever reach a place where you are not feeling the change, be very careful. This scripture has been a guide to me for years. When you think you stand, watch out lest you fall (someone will have to remind me where it is) When you don't see any need to change, you wont accept the change that is freely available. We call ourselves Pentecostals, claim the Baptism with the Spirit, expect manifestations of the Spirit as 1 Corinth 14 shows but overlook or dispense with the manifestation of the Spirit as Romans 8 and Galatians 5:22-25 shows! Agreed. And there are very vulnerable Christians who will never learn how to walk with God because of this notion that Christianity is a free ride. And we become slaves to God. Bond servants. And a good servant will definitely seek to please his/her master. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 11:49am On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2:Very correct, that is why Paul said to examine ourselves. Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? 2 Corinth 13:5 Indeed and that not by struggling or trying but by the Grace which He so freely gives to the willing!!! 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 12:45pm On Mar 19, 2016 |
Muafrika2:I did define righteousness. There is no righteosness without faith. It's impossible to please God without faith.Very true, so what's the righteousness of Christ that is ONLY received by faith? Character is testimony to the presence or absence of righteosness. Godly Character is in fact the righteousness of men. Muafrika2:Righteousness is not character in one post and the next post it is character? You are unashamedly inconsistent poster. Because God is love. He Is Patient, Merciful, Good, Longsuffering, Kind, ... This is what we who believe in Him are continually being turned into.So righteousness is behavior modification? UnGodly character is wickedness. And this is my answer,(feel free to post YOU TAKE of what being in right standing with God as you said righy er oddness is means. Try and remove character out of it and see.)And this is what Paul was seeking by faith, right? The Law lacked ability to give man God's character? Is righteosness a noun or a verb? If a verb, it's an act. If a noun, then the definition, which cannot be complete without the action.Vain semantics There is a spiritual difference between a righteous spirit and an unrighteous one. The spirits of men are not passive entities. Before GOD, A human spirit Is Either glorifying Him, thus a Living, continuous sacrifice. It takes resolve to continually crucify our flesh.It in other words take EFFORT to be righteous which is by faith? Do this, do that...voila! You are righteous Righteousness is effort? What is the role of faith? Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;You think Peter is prescribing a righteousness formula? ![]() As I also just posted, the spirit of the wicked on the other hand is continually in this state;Again, righteousness is behavioral modification, right? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 12:58pm On Mar 19, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Because it concerns me. If you can't stand by what you post, then don't post. As Romans 8 says, we fulfil the righteous demands of the law when we walk in the Spirit, but that is not all there is to Romans 8. Kindly consider the whole post and not just that sentence (evidently edited) Are you better at keeping the Law? |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by Scholar8200(m): 12:59pm On Mar 19, 2016 |
Behaviour modification? Rather, what I see is the receiving and manifestation of a Life while we witness the mortifying of the old and the renewal of the mind, by the Spirit. |
Re: GRACE TRANSCENDS FORGIVENESS! by vooks: 1:00pm On Mar 19, 2016 |
Scholar8200:Righteousness of Christ which is BY FAITH is a bunch of dos and don'ts? |
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