Interviewer: How has it been since you assumed office?

El Rufai: I want to say it has been an interesting and successful journey and we are grateful...I never expected that running a state would be very different from being a federal minister. I thought that running a state would be the same as running the Federal Capital Territory but I was wrong on that. I have seen that things are quite different and more complex.

In the first month we got here, we got about N5bn from Federal Allocation but in the last two months, we got N2.8bn each. Thus, even from the time we started to now, there have been massive changes, but we are taking steps. We knew that all things are scanty and we need to do some things. That is why, from day one, the deputy governor and I have decided to give 50 per cent of our salaries as our contribution because we are going to ask public servants to make similar sacrifice.

We also reduced the size of government; the number of commissioners has been reduced from 24 to 13. It was all in an effort to cut cost. We inherited 38 Permanent Secretaries, but now we are operating with about 18 of them. We are looking at Ministries, Departments and Agencies that have similar functions and merging them just to cut cost. This is because if your revenues are collapsing, you need to cut your cost. We are reducing the length of convoys; the governor’s convoy had 21 vehicles, but now, we only have five or six cars that go out with me and they are all essential.

Interviewer: How do issues get political and ethnic colouration in your state?

El Rufai: This is something I find both disturbing and disappointing. In any argument and situation, if you have your facts and you are right, you don’t need to refer to religion. Religion doesn’t win arguments for you. What I have found in life is that the moment a person introduces religion in any situation, I know they are wrong because if you are right, have facts and can justify your position, why bring God into it? God will judge us on the day of judgment. People only revert to religion and ethnicity when they have run out of convincing arguments.

What I find in Kaduna State is that people can bring religion into everything. I think more than any state in Nigeria, Kaduna state has suffered more in terms of religious and ethnic divisions and that should be a lesson for us but what I found out is that the elite have one weapon and that is religion and it is sad. But, unfortunately for them they have not studied me. If anyone has studied my career at the FCT, they would know that playing the religious card with me will fail all the time, because the moment you play that card, I know you are an adversary that needs to be put down and I will not look back until I am done with you.

Interviewer: One of your policies that has generated a lot of controversy is the religious preaching bill. What does the government want to achieve when it becomes law and how are you going to tackle the anxiety that it has generated among the people?

El Rufai: Kaduna State, more than any state in Nigeria, if you take out the Yobe, Borno and Adamawa axis, which suffered from Boko Haram insurgency, has suffered the most from death and destruction of property due to misuse and abuse of religion. More people have been killed in Kaduna from the words that people have said. And if you go back in history to when the Maitasine incident happened; he was a Cameroonian that came to Nigeria and started preaching. The Emir of Kano had him deported back to Cameroon. After that, he managed to smuggle himself back again and continued preaching.

He was preaching a version of Islam that was intolerant, a version that called other Muslims pagans and so on. But in spite of what he was preaching, he acquired followers and we all know what happened. Military operation had to be mounted to flush them out. Those that escaped from the Maitasine crisis moved to Borno State and started the Kalakato sect, which again led to many deaths and destruction in the early 1990s.

All these came from people that were not trained in religious matters, people that woke up and started preaching and acquiring followers and inevitably their sects grew in large numbers to threaten communities and there were clashes.

That was also how Muhammed Yusuf started. He was a student of Sheik Jaafar Adam in Kano. They fell out because Jaafar felt that some of the views he was expressing were extreme and intolerant. He went and started his own sect and we all know what happened and we are still dealing with it.

Thus, when you have such things happening in your country, I think as leaders, we have to sit down and examine ourselves and the society and see what we can do to prevent it.

In my opinion, it is the lack of regulation of religion that led to all these circles of death and destruction. Just recently, we had the Shi’ite problem in Zaria, following a similar pattern.

I believe that before you start preaching in any religion, you should have gone through a system of education, training and some kind of certification. Even those that deal with the physical life get certified, let alone those that deal with the spiritual life. We initiated this bill from the Kaduna State Security Council, based on reports of new sects emerging in Kaduna State.

Interviewer: Are there recent cases?

El Rufai: There is one around Makarfi called Gausiyya, they do their Zuhr prayer around 11am, different from other Muslims. This is how this thing starts and if you don’t resolve it quickly, it grows into something else.

A woman in Makarfi said Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was speaking to her and sick people started going to her for their healing. The husband of this woman was busy collecting N1,000 as consultancy fee before people could see his wife. We had to take steps to end that movement because before you know it, people would start coming from far and wide and this woman would become our next problem.

It was the report of two or three of these that compelled us in the security council to ask the question, whether or not there was a law that regulates preaching. Then we were told there was a law; since 1984 after the Maitasine problems, the administration passed the law. It was subsequently amended several times to increase the fine and the imprisonment term. This is a living problem and we know it. Christian priests, the ones I know, go to seminary and spend so many years there, study under a more experienced Reverend to learn what to say and what not to say.

Interviewer: What about freedom of religion?

El Rufai: Some people have argued that there is freedom of religion, of course; Section 38 is very clear: We must not have a state religion, every Nigerian is allowed to practise their faith or even if they do not have any religion at all. However, those that are quoting Section 38 of the constitution conveniently forget Section 45 which says that you can regulate any human right if it would affect the right of others. You can practise your religion but you can’t do it in a way that abuses the right of another.

There is nothing in this law that is not in conformity with the constitution, or there is nothing new about it other than expanding the scope and after we sent the bill to the House of Assembly, I saw an article that alerted us of what we did not include: Blocking of federal highways, but that is in the Penal Code. It is good to have put it there because every Friday you see most mosques blocking roads. Why? We had to call them to a meeting to have a system that police would be there to guard and also control the traffic.

In my opinion, this is a law that we need not only in Kaduna State but almost all states in Nigeria and I want to assure you that, I just came back from the National Economic Council meeting, and a handful of the governors asked me to send them our own law because they thought they also needed it in their state. Everybody is watching to see how we will handle our own.

We sent it to the state assembly in October 2015 because some people are saying we sent it because of the Shi’ite problem. No! It was the state assembly that kept on looking at it and saying this one ‘na hot potato’ until now. But, on a very serious note, we don’t have any ulterior motive other than to put a framework that would ensure that Kaduna State people live in peace with everyone practising their religion and disallowing every Tom, Dick and Harry to come and say he can preach.

Interviewer: What is your take on the assumption by some in the state that hold that the bill is aimed at stopping the practice of Christianity and Islam in the state?

El Rufai: I have not seen anyone talking about Islam actually. Most of the people that say I would die, as if I would not die, are people who call themselves Christian clergy. Of course, I will die. If that apostle is truly an apostle, he should mention the day I will die. There is nothing in that law that prevents or infringes the practice of religion. It seeks to ensure that those that preach religion are qualified, trained and certified by their peers to do it.

And some sections of the media have made it as if the law was drafted against Christianity. It is most irresponsible and I have nothing to say except to leave the matter to God.

holamiday:
joseph1013, i've been following this thread and really your change from stunch believer to the direct oppisite is stunning. Like i said earlier on in this thread, most of your assertions & questions are valid.

Nevertheless, i see you downplay the power of faith over logic and that's a mistake, trust me. Faith exists and it has and will always defy logic. I recommend 'the secret of the ages' by Robert Collier.

malvisguy212:
darwin was the pillar of atheism, there are disturbing messages about him in that link I post.

holamiday:
I totally agree with the last statement in your response^^.

Please do something for me. Elucidate On your suggestion that 'the secret'(book & movie) is a fraud.

joseph1013:
THE APOSTATE'S PRAYER
Oh logic, which art forever. Hallowed be thy name. Thy time will come. Thou will overcome on earth, as thou should everywhere. Give us this day a clear head, and forgive us begging the question, as we forgive those who equivocate against us. Lead us not into circular reasoning, but deliver us from delusion. For thou brings us wisdom, and good sense and tolerance, for ever and ever. Amen.

holamiday:
joseph1013, once again, you said the religious concept of faith is not a virtue and i think that may not be totally true.

The bible(though i do not revere or totally believe in this book, but i admit it contains a whole lot of wisdom) says 'FAITH is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen'. Would you say this statement is baseless? Would you rather warn everyone to ignore it?

Take this for example, i intend to own a company. I exercise faith and i see everything on ground(even though they aren't, physically). Rebuke or endorse this action.

holamiday:
joseph1013, i must say once again, the points you made above are actually quite relevant. The secret movie may have exaggerated. But let's look at the law of attraction from the more holistic general view. It states that everyone is the author of events and circumstances that come into their life whether good or bad, based on the state of their mind.

I know about confirmation bias and i'm cautious of it. What do you say about one of 2 friends seeing success in a particular area of life even when they have both put in the same amount of work. I've seen people enjoy the so-called 'unmerited favour'. I've seen answered prayers & unanswered prayers. What do you say about the woman who healed herself of cancer in 'the secret' movie?

So, apart from your 'belief' motivating your own self, i believe it could actually go ahead of you to create your circumstances. If you really do not believe that, then please explain to me what causes our circumstances? If you say chance, then explain to me who 'chance' is, and how one may reach and probably influence her.

holamiday:
joseph1013, so much to digest from your responses. Phew!! But you still have 't answered my concluding questions.

From whence do circumstances(which are beyond control)in a man's life come from? Where are they designed? How do i choose my experiences?

joseph1013:
EVIDENCE OF GOD'S BLESSING

What are the evidence of God's blessings? Good spouse? Good job? Money? Adorable kids? Great and expensive accommodation? Nice cars? Education? Excellent grades? First class certificate?

These are the things propagated by Nigerian Pastors as evidence of God's grace and blessings. But then all around me, "unbelievers" actually enjoy all these and much more. What do I need God's grace for when I can get these things without it?

Something that supposedly comes from a "God" ought to be unique and should not be common among men. But it seems like Nigerian gods are actually competing with Nigerian politicians and "big men" for the wealth and success of life.

The truth is: The Nigerian Christian god and its blessings were created in the image of Nigerians and their desires. Gods ALWAYS behave like the people who created them!

urahara:
p
bros u are 2 much

joseph1013:
I already answered in my response you've not digested.

- From whence do circumstances (which are beyond control) in a man's life come from? Where are they designed?
+ Probability and Confirmation bias

- How do I choose my experiences?
+ See Steps 1-6

holamiday:
Probability? That's simply 'chance'. You mean events and circumstances happening in your life are based on chance? Ain't you worried about that? Isn't that scary?
joseph1013, methinks you need to think more, study more and come back to modify that^^^
No offence bro.

joseph1013:
[b]GOD DID THIS AND GOD DID THAT

Billions of people believe in God because they believe God did something. That something may have been as extraordinary as creating the universe from nothing; as complex as creating humans; as caring as healing a sick child, or as helpful as finding a parking space in a crowded lot.

But did these people SEE God do these things? Did God explain HOW he did what he did? Were there any witnesses? Did God leave any evidence that unequivocally tied him to these acts?

Of course, the answer to all these questions is always the same. It is always NO. There is never anything at all that links God to the event.

Even if you prayed for something to happen and it happened, that does not mean God made it happen--there are always other possible explanations. Even if you can't think of an explanation, there may be an explanation that you are unaware of.

So when you think God did something, you have only an hypothesis, and no sensible person believes an hypothesis until it is shown to be true. But that hypothesis has never, ever been shown to be true, which is why I don't believe God did anything at all.

And neither should you.[/b]

CltrAltDelicious:
This has to be the best thread on NL IMO
Keep up the good work my fine Sire