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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? (15443 Views)
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Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by finofaya: 6:39pm On May 03, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: What objective morality of God? I did not visit the linked site, no. You still haven't told me what makes the objective morality of God objective. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by KAG: 7:40pm On May 03, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: We're all going to die anyway, so the wholesale murder of children is okay - if you truly believe your god has asked for it. That's the "objective morality" to which you subscribe? I don't believe children are deserving of being murdered, nor that it can be justified by your appeal to your god. So much for "objective morality" anchored in your religious book. But God is rich in mercy, willing to forgive, and He proved His great love for us by suffering on the cross and defeating death. If you want to live see www.needGod.com "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius." Planned Parenthood in America committed over 63 million abortions in 40 years, where all these due to rare medical condition you gave as an excuse? I don't live in America. I don't know the reasons for the abortions. I don't know whether any babies were aborted. Address your question to Planned Parenthood of America. If you want My view, you can scroll back and see what I've written. All human life is valuable and that is if you even consider the unborn babies to be human. You clearly don't believe all human life is valuable. They lives of children cease to be valuable once you believe their wholesale execution has been ordered by your god. In cases of crisis pregnancy, the approach should be to try to save a life or two, as opposed to forcing death on one or both of them. That's my point! Forcing the mother to die is abhorent. The choice is never easy for the mother, but sometimes it's the only recourse. Your subjective moral guide has led to the death of millions of unborn and in some cases born children (partial birth abortion). You will all have to face the ultimate Judge on Judgment Day. Or, most likely not. Perhaps your god commanded their deaths but just didn't inform you? Or maybe your "objective morality" is not so objective after all. In any case, my subjective moral guide hasn't led me to murder any children, nor to try to justify the killing of scores of children. I'll stick with it over your supposed "objective morality". OLAADEGBU: Nah, I'm good. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by KAG: 7:40pm On May 03, 2016 |
Muafrika2: The "objective morality" of lying for Jesus. It never gets old. 1 Like |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by Nobody: 9:32pm On May 03, 2016 |
KAG: I guess you need to be informed: ![]() Fetal tissue has been used in biomedical research since the 1930s, for the development of the first polio vaccine Cells from fetal tissue are still in use today in vaccine manufacturing, as well as for stem cell and transplantation research The U.S. Health and Human Services guidelines dictate how researchers can obtain and use fetal tissue (CNN)Fetal tissue has been used since the 1930s for vaccine development, and more recently to help advance stem cell research and treatments for degenerative diseases such as Parkinson's disease. Researchers typically take tissue samples from a fetus that has been aborted .... http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/17/health/fetal-tissue-explainer/ Use of aborted babies for warming hospitals Sarah Knapton, science correspondent 24 MARCH 2014 • 7:00AM The bodies of thousands of aborted and miscarried babies were incinerated as clinical waste, with some even used to heat hospitals, an investigation has found. Ten NHS trusts have admitted burning foetal remains alongside other rubbish while two others used the bodies in ‘waste-to-energy’ plants which generate power for heat..... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2016/03/15/aborted-babies-incinerated-to-heat-uk-hospitals/ ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by KAG: 10:53pm On May 03, 2016 |
Muafrika2: Fair enough. I take back the accusation. 1 Like |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by JustStardust: 11:13pm On May 03, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: On the contrary, the plethora of moral codes in the diverse cultures of the world proves otherwise; there is no universal objective moral code. Rather, there are many subjective moral codes. For example, In some places a woman who is accused of infidelity may be divorced, in others she may be stoned and in others still, shE and some of her family members may be ostracized. This is just one example. Besides, a cursory look at human history will reveal a changing moral zeitgeist; the general moral, and cultural climate is never the same. It keeps evolving. No creator gave morals. We humans do. LET me say a bit about slavery. The bible and koran supported slavery and in numerous points seemed to celebrate slavery as totally okay. But over time, humans started to see that slavery is very offensive and wicked to fEllow humans. Not all humans shared this novel humanistic concept at the same time but slowly and surely, it continued to gain ground. Today, even though some people really still condone slavery and may want it brought back, a majority of humans would definitely condemn it. Including the bible and koran whose pages are full romanticization of slavery. Even Jesus was not moral enough to speak against slavery, neither was st Paul. These people were supposed to speak the wishes of a creator and his morals. Their silence and condoning of slavery reveals the spirit of d timEs. Now some may start to say dat xtians were a majority of those who started to speak against slavery some using d bible for support (speaking about human kindness), but many xtians also spoke otherwise and supported d bible for it. I see the later group as being more intellectually honest. This large controversy also had a lot to do with d American Civil War. In d end reason won. And let's not forget the numerous freethinkers and humanists who were on d side of abolishing slavery. Good people tend to do good stuff and bad people, bad stuff. But for good people (like d xtians who stood on d side of slavery in those confusing times) to do very wicked stuff, it takes religion and any other dogmatic code of morals Reason has also won with the world-View on warcrimes, rape, genocide, female genital mutilation, human sacrifice and misogyny; all these are evils which the holy books (that purport to show us the moral code of a one true creator) brazenly supported and embraced. Any reasonable regardless of creed will abhor all these. But the Abrahamic god, Jesus and Mohammed and co. No. So reason will guide us to make decisions on abortion and other modern confusions. Afterall, no holy book predicted and gave advice about such. And thankfully so. Let me end with a few questions. If there were no "10 commandments" would you kill and rape and steal? Would you start hurting every one on the road? Funny, 10 commandments never even mentioned rape. Even you know what is good and bad on the basics. Or is it the fear of burning in hell that keeps you from being a murderer or serial rapist?? I don't want to believe so. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 5:37pm On May 05, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Any subjective morality we set for ourselves can only be arbitrary. Wrong! Who then is to say which moral code is to be followed. Followed by who? Why should everybody follow one single moral code? It is only God's absolute morality that is universal and is already written in our consciences. You don't really believe this, i don't think. you're just saying it because you read something like it somewhere. Think about what you're saying. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:18am On May 06, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Why is the standard of your own creation not subjective and arbitrary? PastorAIO: Because God created us and ingrained in us the sense of right and wrong. It is only by going back to the user manual for reference that we can get back to factory setting. PastorAIO: If God says it and I believe it that settles it for me. ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 5:54pm On May 09, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Because 1) I didn't create it. No one creates their morality. They discover it. 2) It may be subjective but it is Not arbitrary. If you think at all about morality and observe people around you and around the world you will notice that nobody has ever sat down and said 'I'm now going to arbitrarily create more moral sense and just randomly stick things into categories of good and evil.' If you know anybody that has done so please let us know about this person. Sense of Morality is not arbitrary but rather is formed according to certain systematic rules. For example a very big influence on our moral sense is our cosmology, i.e.. our worldview. Take 3 different world views about death. a) Life after death in heaven with Jesus, b)Life after death as a reincarnated person, c)No life after death. These 3 world views will affect the morality of the people that believe them. a)the person that believes that this life is just an exam to enter another life hereafter will have a certain attitude to Life. He might be more prepared to sacrifice his life in the here and now for a better chance in the next life. He may well believe that burning a 'witch' to death in this world in order to save her eternal soul in the next life is an act of mercy. b)the person who believes in reincarnation will have a different attitude about human life. Possibly also a different attitude to the life of animals if he considers that the goat he wants to eat for dinner might actually be his grandmother. c) the person who believes that this one life is it, a one off unique event in the entirety of history, will have yet another attitude towards human life. He might consider it more precious, he might feel that every second of it should be relished as the unique event it is. These three people will have different attitudes to murder because they have different beliefs about what exactly they are depriving the victims from. The Long and short of it all….. Sense of Morality does not arise arbitrarily but is a product of our world view/ cosmology/beliefs. Our world view is to a large part derived from our societies subsequently people who come from the same cultural milieu will share the same sense of morality. That fact alone is enough to let any thinking man or woman know that morality is not arrived at arbitrarily. if it was arbitrary everybody would be walking around with their own radically distinct and unique sense of morality. Obviously we don't know everything that there is to know about the world and so our world views are constantly evolving with every new fact that we learn. It follows that if our world views are constantly evolving then our Sense of Morality must perforce evolve along with them. 1 Like |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 2:57pm On May 10, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: This begs the question: What is the user manual? I know for certain that it is not the bible. If that's what you are referring to then you'll need to prove that the bible is the user manual from the creator. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 9:16am On May 11, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Where did you hear God saying any such thing? Did god say it to your hearing or did somebody tell you that god said it? 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 7:04pm On May 12, 2016 |
finofaya: The 10 commandments cover all rights and wrongs and it resonates within every conscience universally. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 7:09pm On May 12, 2016 |
finofaya: It covers all that is right and fair. Our Lord Jesus Christ boiled it down to 2. Loving God and loving our neighbour as ourselves. ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 7:14pm On May 12, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Thou shalt not make any graven image does not resonate within every conscience universally. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 7:19pm On May 12, 2016 |
JustStardust: The difference between God and the universe is that God created the universe hence the universe has a beginning while God remains the infinite uncreated Creator. Since the universe could not create itself and the only logical and reasonable solution is that the universe had to have a beginning and thus was created by the infinite Creator who is uncreated Himself. God does not require a cause since He has always existed as you have rightly noted. God is beyond time and is not bound by the chain of effects within time. God is a Spirit, He is not a sequence of energetic reactions and therefore is not subject to the laws of thermodynamics. His is not bound by the laws of "cause and effect". |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 8:01pm On May 12, 2016 |
JustStardust: The moral law I stated earlier is of the highest standard that cannot be compared with any other subjective moral code. JustStardust: We know that according to your atheistic, evolutionary universe we are simply chemical accidents that can be disintegrated at anytime. ![]() JustStardust: Drug addicts also feel that they are free to get high with no responsibility at all until reality sets in ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 8:02pm On May 12, 2016 |
finofaya: God's love in our hearts will fulfil the Moral Law of God. ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 8:05pm On May 12, 2016 |
finofaya: It is based on absolute truth and not arbitrary or human's personal opinion. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 8:26pm On May 12, 2016 |
KAG: Murder is not acceptable. You cannot take the life you did not give. Only God gives and takes according to His set down Law. The soul that sins shall die and that does not depend on your sentimental reasons it is based on God's Moral Law. KAG: This happens when religious folks begin to misquote and miss-apply the Moral Laws of God. (See 2 Timothy 2:19). KAG: 98% of the abortions (murders) committed are done for social reasons only about 2% are medical. KAG: You seem to be oblivious to the truth that life does not end here on earth. I happen to believe that all children below the age of accountability will be safe in heaven. Our God is merciful. KAG: Those instances are rare and not the norm. It is only 2% that are medical complications and that is not a reason to be going on a wholesale murder of over 63 million murders and counting. KAG: Ignorance is not an excuse and now that Muafrika2 has intimated you on the evils of your atheistic evolutionary colleagues would you now condemn such abortions committed? KAG: If you are good then answer the questions in the suggested link. ==>www.NeedGod.com 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 8:52pm On May 12, 2016 |
JustStardust: I agree that the world is full of subjective moral codes but which ones should we follow? Whose moral codes are superior to others if not the absolute truth as we see in the God's Moral Law? JustStardust: That is your subjective opinion and you are entitled to it. All cultures know that it is wrong to commit murder, that is universal unless you decide to indoctrinate yourself with your evolutionary fairytales for adults that says "survival of the fittest". JustStardust: You are begging the question here. Where and when did the Bible celebrate or support slavery? Slavery is supported by atheistic evolutionary and Islamic worldviews and is certainly not Christian. JustStardust: Christians are followers of Jesus Christ. Tell me where in the Bible Christians are enjoined to engage in slave trade? JustStardust: The Moral Law of God covers all that. If you love your neighbour you will not commit any of the above crimes. JustStardust: You can't think crooked and walk straight. If you think that humans are simply chemical reactions why would you hesitate to take human life? For you to make the right decisions your thinking must be based on the absolute truth of the Word of God. JustStardust: We know what is good and fair because God has ingrained His Moral Law into us as He has created us in His own image. The Moral Law of God is only there to awaken our consciences that we have muffled due to the evil and sinful ideologies such as evolutionary theory and the likes. 1 Like 2 Shares |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:19pm On May 12, 2016 |
PastorAIO: God created the laws of morality and we have to discover them because of sin. PastorAIO: I have heard folks who believe that truth is relative. PastorAIO: They may be different moral codes but only one is true and that is the basis of our absolute morality that we have to discover if we have lost it. PastorAIO: Some folks have indoctrinated themselves into believing that embezzling government money is not stealing or taking bribe is not corrupt. An armed robber does not believe in the existence of the police until he gets caught. He has somehow convinced himself that they do not exist. PastorAIO: The laws of morality only makes sense in the Christian worldview where God created us in His own image and it will do us a whole world of good if our starting point is based on the Moral laws of God which has been set for our behaviour and these are written with indelible ink upon the table of our hearts when we go back to factory setting. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:28pm On May 12, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. You better believe it. ![]() 1 Share
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Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:29pm On May 12, 2016 |
PastorAIO: Watch the depiction in the post above this. ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 9:43pm On May 12, 2016 |
PastorAIO: "Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments" (Genesis 35:2). How did Jacob know that he had to do away with the strange gods (graven images) in his family if you say it wasn't ingrained our consciences? ![]() |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by finofaya: 11:50pm On May 12, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: There are only 10 rights and wrongs in your universe? Where did you get the idea that they resonate with everyone? The commandments don't all resonate with me, for starters. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by OLAADEGBU(m): 12:23am On May 13, 2016 |
finofaya: Which ones doesn't resonate with you? |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 7:53am On May 13, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Your failure to address the point that I made tells me that you cannot refute it so you just fart nonsense from your mouth/keyboard. You were WRONG when you said that moral codes were arbitrary. We do not invent them. I have heard folks who believe that truth is relative. If you cannot mention any names of anybody here on NL or further afield then just shut up your mouth and accept that you made yet another baseless claim.
Hmm, Olaadegbu, the king of baseless claims. At least you seem to understand how different moral codes arise based on our knowledge/beliefs about the world. Even if only one is true, you still have to tell us how humans with their limited knowledge can know which one is true.
So What!! How does what you wrote above address anything I've said. Some folks have indoctrinate themselves into believing that mass genocide and the slaughter of innocent women and babies is the will of God, but that has no bearing on the point I made. I'll repeat my point cos it seems you missed it. - Based on our knowledge of the world our Sense of Morality is derived. Our knowledge of the world is not absolute and it grows every day, likewise our sense of morality cannot be absolute and it also evolves with our knowledge.
WRONG AND DAFT!!! Every moral code makes sense within it's own world view. Biblical morality is as daft as the world view espoused in the bible. Unless you can claim that the bible is scientifically accurate in its world views then I may accept that it's moralities may be absolute. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 7:55am On May 13, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Strange Gods are not equal to Graven Images. Haba!! I have graven images hanging on the walls of my house, they are not gods and no one bows to them. They are images of people and things (found on the earth below and the heavens above) that delight me to look at. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 8:00am On May 13, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: Bullcrap Infesting Black Lives Everywhere. |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 8:02am On May 13, 2016 |
OLAADEGBU: So you prayed and a hand came from heaven and handed you a bible? See as your pinocchio nose is big for the cartoon. 1 Like |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by PastorAIO: 8:16am On May 13, 2016 |
Brigance: |
Re: Why Is It Necessary To Appeal To God For Objective Morals? by wirinet(m): 8:52am On May 13, 2016 |
[quote author=OLAADEGBU post=45375980] I hope this helps those accusing God of the immorality of killing the 'innocents'. ![]() A basic knowledge of Canaanite culture reveals its inherent moral wickedness. The Canaanites were a brutal, aggressive people who engaged in bestiality, Inbreeding, and even child sacrifice. Deviant sexual acts were the norm. The Canaanites' sin was so repellent that God said, "The land vomited out its inhabitants" (Leviticus 18:25). Even so, the destruction (of human beings) was directed more at the Canaanite religion (Deuteronomy 7:3–5,12:2-3) than at the Canaanite people per se. The judgment was not ethnically motivated. Individual Canaanites, like Rahab in Jericho, could still find that mercy follows repentance (Joshua 2). God's desire is that the wicked turn from their sin rather than die (Ezekiel 18:31-32, 33:11). Second, God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God and God alone can give life, and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person's life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God's. While it is wrong for us to take a life, except in instances of capital punishment, war, and self-defense, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. But didn't God also command the Israelites to kill non-combatants? The biblical record is clear that He did. Here again, we must remember that, while it is true the Canaanite women did not fight, this in no way means they were innocent, as their seductive behaviour in Numbers 25 indicates (Numbers 25:1–3). However, the question still remains: what about the children? This is not an easy question to answer, but we must keep several things in mind. First, no human person (including infants) is truly innocent. The Scripture teaches that we are all born in sin (Psalm 51:5; 58:3). This implies that all people are morally culpable for Adam’s sin in some way. Infants are just as condemned from sin as adults are. PastorAIQ, please help me ask Mr olaadegbu the Objective morality in the above quotes, i am too appalled to debate the topic directly with him, i might get too angry angry and lose my cool. What is the objective morality in him and his God sanctioning the killing of new borns because they are born condemned. What is the objective morality in him and his God commanding his followers to take a life or lives because lives are not the property of the owner but of his God, so it is right to take it at the command of his God. What is the objective morality in committing Genocide against other people because they have another religion. Furthermore, ask what is the objective morality in making and bowing down in front of graven image? Almost all the population of the world make and bow down before one image or the other, be it a cross, a crucifix, other religious symbols, pictures of dead relatives, political and religious figures, etc. What is the objective reality in keeping the Sabbath holy. Only the Jews ( and maybe seventh day Adventist) recognize the Sabbath (Saturday) as holy. |
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