joseph1013:
[b]YOU DON'T SEE AIR YET YOU DON'T DOUBT IT...

So I got a PM yesterday and this fellow sought to know how I can be so foolish to not believe in the existence of God. He said to me, "That I can't see air doesn't in any way void its existence.... Trying to understand God before believing his existences will fry your brain....so these guys only retire to their belief as they find it impossible to comprehend God."

I promised to answer him in a comment on this thread and here it is:

You can't "SEE" air, but you can observe it. There are many many tests to observe air. Scientists have observed air so well, they even know its make-up.

Evidence doesn't mean "SEE". It means "SENSE" by any means replicable: human senses or even with the help of technology.

Now no one alive and healthy today has ever SENSED God in a universally replicable manner.

For there to be a goat in a well, it's not enough for Olamide alone to see/hear it. He should also be able to demonstrate to Chidinma by telling him what steps he took to sense the goat, so that Chindinma can sense it himself and also show Audu.

If you are the only one who can sense the presence of this goat, then it's most likely all in your head (hallucination).

If you believe something so so so much and you managed to convince yourself it's there, guess what, your brain starts to see it in everything. But, my friend, it's still all in your head (delusion).

What religion has managed to do is get a whole lot of people deluded. They start seeing god in everything - they woke up today (must be god). Almost got hit by a car (God saved). Passed exam (God blessed). Didn't pass exam (God testing)... This is mass delusion my brother.

I know this has fallen on deaf ears, but I had to try.[/b]

Brigance:
Then the Lord God asked me:

"if you don't question a thing, can you conclude the truth from it?"

"Honestly Lord, I don't think so." I replied.

The Lord God smiled and agreed with me. Then He reminded me of how He had to question Adam and Eve about their flagrant bellicose before he banished them from the garden, to ascertain their offense.

Specifically, the Lord God reminded me this portion of His infallible words:

Genesis 3:8-12 New International Version (NIV)

"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD
God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day,
and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the
garden. But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are
you?”
He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid
because I was naked; so I hid.”
And he said, [b]“Who told you that you were naked? Have
you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat
from?”[/b[
The man said, “The woman you put here with me—she
gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it.”

The Lord concluded: "you see, I can't just conclude they have sinned, I had to ask them. Despite the fact that I knew all along they would sin. Remember I'm the all knowing God."

I became exceeedly glad with the ways of the Lord. And I decided I'd make His way my ways. In my excitement, I foolishly asked the Lord 'Can I make your ways my ways? Can I question the truth of this story?'

Then the anger of the Lord Kindled against me and His eyes burned in fury.

"I'm the consuming fire!" He boomed. And he proceeded to dig pits and pits of fiery furnace for me and my children after me.

Till today, The Lord is still digging and His only begotten son is still seated at his right arm, pleading on my behalf.

joseph1013:

Brigance:


What you have right here sir, is a selfless humanity service.

Do you mind, when the occasion arises that I lift some/most of your thoughts here? Even words for words..?

You're free to use them.

Freely we receive from God, freely we give.

Tritri:
@joseph1013 Should i say God bless U or what...U've been of help to upcoming agnostic like me.

joe4christ:
I dey feel you bro. You're not alone.

Joe4Christ, what a name!

Namesake, I feel you too.

joseph1013:


Joe4Christ, what a name!

Namesake, I feel you too.

joseph1013:
[b]CHRISTIANS, WHAT IS YOUR ADVANTAGE?

I often don't understand Christians and their beliefs. It's impossible to have a rational debate with many of our religious friends because they will ALWAYS find excuses to rationalise their beliefs.

Yesterday, I stumbled on an article on the internet where the respected Pastor Sunday Adelaja who leads the largest Pentecostal church in Europe confessed to having sexual relations with over 30 women in his congregation. See HERE

In his defence, I saw so many Christians calling for restraints and telling people who condemned him to realise that Pastors are humans who are subject to failings of the human flesh. But it kept me wondering about the irony of it all.

Isn't that convenient! I like how in trying to make excuses for these Pastors when they show their true selves, believers are always quick to admit suddenly that they are humans. Well, maybe you all should start treating them like one and stop being their sheep. When you were giving them your money for their lies, they were divine....when they tell you when and what to eat or wear, they were divine....but when they are caught pants down....you suddenly remember that they are humans and ask that they be pardoned for being human.

These are the same people who proselytise from door to door and refer to those of us who reject their message as sinners. They say that if we accept Jesus into our lives, he will give us the power to overcome sin and to live sin-less lives. These guys are worse offenders because they sin as much as the rest of us but they lie about this and project an aura of moral uprightness.

My question to them is - what is the advantage of giving my life to Jesus if your lives are as sinful as mine? What's the point of Jesus' death if Christians cannot overcome sins?

You claim that Jesus gives power over sins but why does this not stop you from sinning? And, if you admit that accepting Jesus into your lives doesn't stop you from sinning then on what basis do you invite others to give their lives to Christ?

I mean, what does this actually do for you? I ask because devout Christians experience illnesses, infertility, loss of jobs, divorces, untimely death and so on as much as everyone else.

Seeing as Christianity does not immune you from misfortune nor does it make you to be more moral than everyone else, what then is the advantage of submitting yourselves to its irrational doctrines?

To conclude, the point has to be made - religions and their gods do not make people moral. They give people a feeling of righteousness and a sense of entitlement to call others sinners whilst all the while being full of sh!t![/b]

joseph1013:
[b]CHRISTIANS, WHAT IS YOUR ADVANTAGE?

I often don't understand Christians and their beliefs. It's impossible to have a rational debate with many of our religious friends because they will ALWAYS find excuses to rationalise their beliefs.

Yesterday, I stumbled on an article on the internet where the respected Pastor Sunday Adelaja who leads the largest Pentecostal church in Europe confessed to having sexual relations with over 30 women in his congregation. See HERE

In his defence, I saw so many Christians calling for restraints and telling people who condemned him to realise that Pastors are humans who are subject to failings of the human flesh. But it kept me wondering about the irony of it all.

Isn't that convenient! I like how in trying to make excuses for these Pastors when they show their true selves, believers are always quick to admit suddenly that they are humans. Well, maybe you all should start treating them like one and stop being their sheep. When you were giving them your money for their lies, they were divine....when they tell you when and what to eat or wear, they were divine....but when they are caught pants down....you suddenly remember that they are humans and ask that they be pardoned for being human.

These are the same people who proselytise from door to door and refer to those of us who reject their message as sinners. They say that if we accept Jesus into our lives, he will give us the power to overcome sin and to live sin-less lives. These guys are worse offenders because they sin as much as the rest of us but they lie about this and project an aura of moral uprightness.

My question to them is - what is the advantage of giving my life to Jesus if your lives are as sinful as mine? What's the point of Jesus' death if Christians cannot overcome sins?

You claim that Jesus gives power over sins but why does this not stop you from sinning? And, if you admit that accepting Jesus into your lives doesn't stop you from sinning then on what basis do you invite others to give their lives to Christ?

I mean, what does this actually do for you? I ask because devout Christians experience illnesses, infertility, loss of jobs, divorces, untimely death and so on as much as everyone else.

Seeing as Christianity does not immune you from misfortune nor does it make you to be more moral than everyone else, what then is the advantage of submitting yourselves to its irrational doctrines?

To conclude, the point has to be made - religions and their gods do not make people moral. They give people a feeling of righteousness and a sense of entitlement to call others sinners whilst all the while being full of sh!t![/b]

joseph1013:
GOD SENDS NO ONE TO HELL, PEOPLE SEND THEMSELVES...

Engage a knowledgeable Christian about the concept of Hell and why an all-loving God would even create that for his frail beings and you are bound to get the answer, "God does not send anybody to hellfire, it is the people themselves who voluntarily choose hell".

Well, I got the amazing darkmatter25 to the rescue in this video...watch it. It's less than 3 minutes


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaJgLBoB_Pw

PastorAIO:
Have you never heard of the imputation of righteousness? That means that the rest of your life can be dark as sin itself but as far as God is concerned you smell of roses.

joseph1013:


[b]LOL. I am aware of the concept of eternal salvation and Christ being made our own righteousness. For instance the following verses speak of that:

Romans 4:5
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption.

While those are valid, these ones show something interesting:

Romans 6:14
Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law.

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

1 John 3:9
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

1 John 5:18
We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them.[/b]

francis247:
Watched the video. The comparison is totally baseless.
1. The armed rubber did not give her the money and therefore has no right to demand of it from her in that manner unlike God who gave us life (and He is not putting a gun to our heads directly of indirectly to use it as it pleases Him or be dammed anyways).

2. God does not give us ultimatum like the armed robber, neither does He say believe in me or I send you to hell. He is saying believe in me, believe I can save you or the devil lays claim to your soul and does as he pleases. The devil sends people to hell for doing his will (the devil). It's a matter of reward. You don't work for one man and expect to be rewarded by another. God rewards his workers and so does the devil, they just have different ways of doing it. When someone dies, the devil tries to lay claim to the soul whether or not the soul is for him to reward, while God does same if the soul is for Him to reward as well. It's like an exam, only those whom have written well pass and get promoted (all things being equal of course(rewarded). Those who fail depending on the extent to which the fail are not promoted, while some are demoted and some are no more allowed to remain in the institution (punished). As for why God created the devil. He did not create him. The devil is a manifestation of the other side of good just like there is no fake until there is an original, just like there was no computer virus until computers came into existence. And as for God not destroying the devil since he is all powerful and Omnipotent, it's like saying that God should kill a spirit. A spirit is indestructible, just like viruses and fake versions of an original are inextinguishable until and unless the place of habitation of the virus or the original of the fake is extinguished.

3. Finally, unlike the scenario painted in the video, God has has given us a choice. To blame the case of a sinner ending up in hell on God, is like blaming a parent who has provided for his teenage child, warned the him/her against stealing, only for the child to go out there and steal, gets caught in the act, the offended party reports to the authorities and the law takes its cause. Now remember I'm referring to a teenager here, let alone an adult old enough to reason very well and make life changing decisions on his own.

PastorAIO:
So is it a contradiction? Or is it that God in his infinite kindness, realising that his children love to pick and choose felt that it's best to give them an ample supply of various doctrines.

You just said it.

joseph1013:
Pastor...LOL

That awkward moment when one of those you led to Christ on Campus shout your name on the streets of Lagos and introduce you to his wife as one of the best Preachers he's ever come across and you are instantly tongue-tied.

The struggle for the souls of men used to be so real mehn. LMAO

PS: Appreciate the shout-out, bro.

THE WISDOM OF A FATHER

My father never believed in ramming religion down the throats of children.

Attending church on Sundays was a family tradition, and we always tried to be on time at Mass.

But that was it. My dad would tell us that education was much more important than religiosity. Hustling to be in church everyday was a poor use of time, especially for young people.

My mother would ask me if I was interested in accompanying her to some religious service during the week.

I would simply say no.

I had other things to do.

She would not try to impose her views on me. We understood each other.

It was at home that I learned that it was crucial to build a solid academic foundation, and to read widely, as no knowledge is a waste.

Pop would tell us that when we become adults, we could spend every day of every week in church if we wished. By that time, that would be our own headache, not his. His own job of raising responsible kids would have been accomplished.

All the talk of sin and hellfire and heaven should not concern kids learning the beauty of mathematics and biology, and the habit of reading. Reams of plain A4 sheets were always avaliable, and thoughts readily found expression on flawless paper.

The old man believed that aiming to become a pastor in future showed a lack of grit and ambition.

Nowadays I see many families where religion is put ahead of education. It is scary seeing many bible thumping kids and young people who cannot think. That is the sort of thing that pissed off the old man.

One wonders what time youths devote to real learning these days. Who would even blame them when their parents are the type that show up every Wednesday to hear the same miracle message from Father Mbaka?

Today, pentecostal pastors are riding in luxury cars and flying shiny private jets. Kids now get to take home fictitious grades they never earned.

Parents condone it. Society teeters on the edge of collapse. Who can turn back the hands of time?

joseph1013:
[b]CHRISTIANS, WHAT IS YOUR ADVANTAGE?

I often don't understand Christians and their beliefs. It's impossible to have a rational debate with many of our religious friends because they will ALWAYS find excuses to rationalise their beliefs.

Yesterday, I stumbled on an article on the internet where the respected Pastor Sunday Adelaja who leads the largest Pentecostal church in Europe confessed to having sexual relations with over 30 women in his congregation. See HERE

In his defence, I saw so many Christians calling for restraints and telling people who condemned him to realise that Pastors are humans who are subject to failings of the human flesh. But it kept me wondering about the irony of it all.

Isn't that convenient! I like how in trying to make excuses for these Pastors when they show their true selves, believers are always quick to admit suddenly that they are humans. Well, maybe you all should start treating them like one and stop being their sheep. When you were giving them your money for their lies, they were divine....when they tell you when and what to eat or wear, they were divine....but when they are caught pants down....you suddenly remember that they are humans and ask that they be pardoned for being human.

These are the same people who proselytise from door to door and refer to those of us who reject their message as sinners. They say that if we accept Jesus into our lives, he will give us the power to overcome sin and to live sin-less lives. These guys are worse offenders because they sin as much as the rest of us but they lie about this and project an aura of moral uprightness.

My question to them is - what is the advantage of giving my life to Jesus if your lives are as sinful as mine? What's the point of Jesus' death if Christians cannot overcome sins?

You claim that Jesus gives power over sins but why does this not stop you from sinning? And, if you admit that accepting Jesus into your lives doesn't stop you from sinning then on what basis do you invite others to give their lives to Christ?

I mean, what does this actually do for you? I ask because devout Christians experience illnesses, infertility, loss of jobs, divorces, untimely death and so on as much as everyone else.

Seeing as Christianity does not immune you from misfortune nor does it make you to be more moral than everyone else, what then is the advantage of submitting yourselves to its irrational doctrines?

To conclude, the point has to be made - religions and their gods do not make people moral. They give people a feeling of righteousness and a sense of entitlement to call others sinners whilst all the while being full of sh!t![/b]

joseph1013:
[b]LYING FOR GOD

Time and time again I hear Muslims defend the embarrassing parts of their scripture by claiming infidels don't understand Arabic. And, if we did, it would all be clear to us.

It's almost a clever scheme because it simultaneously, deflects the opprobrium from Islam and places it on us because we lack the ability to understand Arabic.

But there are three problems with this apologetic. Firstly, there are eight English language translations of the Qur'an that I know of. When they all disagree with your interlocutor's claimed translation, we have good reason to be suspicious.

Secondly, it is obvious that Arabic speaking Muslims disagree amongst themselves on the meaning of some verses--to the extent of inciting Muslim-on-Muslim homicide in some cases.

Thirdly, we infidels know of taqiyya. One would imagine, if a religion wishes to make a virtue of dissimulation, it would at least not brag about it.... Duh.

PS
al-Taqiyya:
deception; the islamic word for concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies.[/b]

PastorAIO:
Further more Quran was written in Medieval Arabic which nobody speaks today. It's virtually a different language.
Only super academic moslems can read the quran as written. Many of their imams can't.