macof:


oluwa means Master or Lord not God. so shut the hell up

Seun:

Okay, let's do this. We could spend ages indulging in endless speculations that have nothing to do with reality, so let's not do that. Let's anchor our speculations in reality by discussing only the things we have evidence for.

You seem to believe that the 11 disciples were all beaten, persecuted and killed for insisting that Jesus rose from the dead. That they all had a chance to save their lives by confessing that Jesus did not rise from the dead, but they all refused to do that, and for this reason they were all killed. Show me the evidence for that.

(Rilwayne001, thanks for your insightful comments on the Matthew story.)

malvisguy212:
this is not what I asked. I list 3 things and ask you to pick among them. If jesus did not resurrect, why was the tomb empty ? Please answer this question.

This is how the apostles were kill http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/killing-jesus/articles/how-did-the-apostles-die/

The jews wanted to make sure, jesus did not resurrected as He claim He will, so they provide a romans guard to guard the tomb. Now, who role the giant stone ? Is it the disciples ? If yes, how could they have roll it without the guard hearing the sound ? In fact the guard will be kill if they fail to protect the body, so you expect them to do their job with their life. The jew wanted to bring the crucifixion rumors to end, so they should at least provide the body of jesus which they kill, but they couldn't.

Rilwayne001:


I don't know how come you didn't see the reply in my post, hence the reason why you keep repeating this balderdash.

I will advice you to scroll up and re-read my post.

Seun:

1. The Empty Tomb And The Men In White

Mark, which was the first gospel to be written, describes the incident in chapter 16:

Is it reasonable to accept this as evidence that Jesus rose from the dead? Let's see.

Jesus was the T B Joshua of his time. He came from a humble background, was loved by the masses because of his miracle ministry, and was hated by the religious establishment which didn't accept him as a true man of God and felt that his teachings were unscriptural.

Now lets imagine that T. B Joshua died, and then 3 days later the 3 women who were closest to him when he was alive in his ministry came to you with this story: That they went to T B Joshua's grave to pray and lay flowers, but when they got there, they saw that the grave had been opened, the body missing and a young guy in a white suit was sitting there. And the guy told them that T B Joshua had risen from the dead.

Would it be reasonable to believe that T B Joshua had risen from the dead on the basis of this testimony? Wouldn't you be suspicious that T B Joshua's body had been stolen by his top pastors to make it appear that he had risen? That the man in white was just an accomplice of the thieves? That maybe the women were hallucinating due to their grief, or simply lying to hype their hero and crush?

Luke's Gospel, written about 10 years later, describes the same incident thus:

Notice how the story has been altered to solve the issues with the first one, and spiced up?

Imagine if, in the hypothetical case of TB Joshua's alleged resurrection, the women who told you about his empty grave came back 10 years later to tell the same story. But this time, instead of a young man in a white suit who was sitting by the grave when they arrived, they claim that there was no one at T B joshua's grave initially and then suddenly, two men in glowing suits as bright as the sun (implying angels) appeared before them and gave them a scriptural lesson. Would those changes make the story more believable to you, or less so?

2. Appearing To His Closest Followers

According to Mark's Gospel,

In short, Jesus' closest followers claimed that he appeared to them at various times after his body went missing. Jesus closest followers had everything to lose by his death, and everything to gain by getting people to believe the resurrection story. They had sold all their posessions and left their families and professions to join Jesus' ministry. With his death, that ministry was finished, but the ressurection story brought it back to life. Knowing about this serious conflict of interest, it reasonable to accept their testimony as evidence that the resurrection actually happened?

If TB Joshua died and the top pastors in his church said he appeared to them, would you believe it for one moment?

3. His Appearance To 500 Believers

According to 1 Corinthians 15:6,

This would seem like the least weak evidence for the resurrection, due to the sheer number of potential witnesses, until you start to wonder why none of the Gospels mentioned it. Not even imaginative Luke of the robes as white as lightening. Why would all the Gospel writers have choosen to leave out what would have been their strongest evidence? 500 witnesses! Because it didn't happen? Because it was too early to tell such a big lie and get away with it? I don't know.

And even if we want to at issume that it happened, we must not forget that it would be quite easy for any illusionist to stage the appearance of Jesus to people who strongly want to believe that he is still alive. Benny Hinn tells a story about Jesus appearing during one of his crusades, and people believe it.

Conclusion:
The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is a bunch of testimonies attributed to people who had every reason to lie during a period when people were far more superstitious and gullible than we are today because they didn't have science. It's not sufficient to convince an objective modern person that a 3 day old corpse whose brain and heart would have decayed considerably actually came back to life, held meetings in person with various people, and then ascended into outer space. Or ... What do you think?

malvisguy212:
alright, I read your post. What explanation will you give concerning the empty tomb ?

LoJ:

I have nothing against Seun criticizing Religion(s) and airing his views, he is entitled to do so. The guy usually makes relevant points that deserve to be discussed.

However, there seems to be some level of hyprocisy in the whole stuff. Seun goes about criticizing Christianity and christian's faith only and almost never does the same with Islam, except some vague timid topics. He created a specific forum for muslims, where you can't even intervene unless you profess that you believe that:

- Islam is the only true religion
-There is no God but Allah
- Mohammed is his prophet

or something similar, and have it written on your profile

It is very sad as some of us have brought this numerous times to his attention, with quasi no answers/explanations from him.

I am not a (religious) christian, so I do not seek to defend christianity.

Rilwayne001:


The empty tomb was never empty. According to the book of Mark: "And entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted."

I think you need to start reading your Bible.

TheSonOfMark:


Exactly!

Seun targeting Christianity solely further lends credence to the fact that Christians are rational, humane and tolerant persons by default. Only Christians would let the mocking and taunts lying low.

Seun, if you're indeed anti-religion and not just anti-christianity, attack Islam once, just even once and let's see what becomes of you. We both know you wouldn't dare. You have a face to your name.

Rilwon:


I can see how bitter the truth is to you guys, why are you all crying foul around? Haven't we had enough Christians/atheists attcking Muslims and Islam on this board and even on front page?

Attack the Original Post instead of attacking the original poster. If you have nothing to say, kindly walk away. Biko

TheSonOfMark:


[s] Rilwayne001 , you had to login to your alternate account ( Rilwon) to quote me even though your main account was active minutes ago?

Still suffering from the vestiges of the memory of the cyber-mauling I inflicted on you this time last year? You want an encore? I'd be the death of you.

[/s]]

malvisguy212:
lol, who was the young man ? Is he jesus ? If you say yes, why dint the jew provide this young man to silent the apostles claim of the resurrected christ ? If the tomb was not empty, why did the apostles begins the preaching of the resurrection immediately ?

Rilwon:


First of all you have to admit the fact that there is no empty tomb.

Admit?

malvisguy212:
lol, I think am done hear, when you ready to answer my questions, quote me, until then, am gone.

Seun:

Okay, let's do this. We could spend ages indulging in endless speculations that have nothing to do with reality, so let's not do that. Let's anchor our speculations in reality by discussing only the things we have evidence for.

You seem to believe that the 11 disciples were all beaten, persecuted and killed for insisting that Jesus rose from the dead. That they all had a chance to save their lives by confessing that Jesus did not rise from the dead, but they all refused to do that, and for this reason they were all killed. Show me the evidence for that.

(Rilwayne001, thanks for your insightful comments on the Matthew story.)

RobinHez:
I had the privilege of reading Foxe's book of Matyrs. And everything on the persecution of Christians till recent times were documented there (the disciples included)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe's_Book_of_Martyrs

[s]Also, Josephus, an historian at that time talked about the disciples and their "belief in a risen christ", how they were being killed.... Even by Nero who set fire on Rome and blamed it on the sect.[/s]

Seun:

Remember, we're talking about the persecution of the 11 disciples of Jesus who may have known that he didn't actually rise bodily. This is the part of Foxe's Book Of Matyrs that is relevant to this: www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox101.htm According to him, only John was not martyred.

Seun:
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is probably the most important event in Christianity. Apostle Paul said, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (I Cor 15:14). He also said, "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins". Did it really happen, though? Let's look at the evidence.

1. The Empty Tomb And The Men In White

Mark, which was the first gospel to be written, describes the incident in chapter 16:

Is it reasonable to accept this as evidence that Jesus rose from the dead? Let's see.

Jesus was the T B Joshua of his time. He came from a humble background, was loved by the masses because of his miracle ministry, and was hated by the religious establishment which didn't accept him as a true man of God and felt that his teachings were unscriptural.

Now lets imagine that T. B Joshua died, and then 3 days later the 3 women who were closest to him when he was alive in his ministry came to you with this story: That they went to T B Joshua's grave to pray and lay flowers, but when they got there, they saw that the grave had been opened, the body missing and a young guy in a white suit was sitting there. And the guy told them that T B Joshua had risen from the dead.

Would it be reasonable to believe that T B Joshua had risen from the dead on the basis of this testimony? Wouldn't you be suspicious that T B Joshua's body had been stolen by his top pastors to make it appear that he had risen? That the man in white was just an accomplice of the thieves? That maybe the women were hallucinating due to their grief, or simply lying to hype their hero and crush?

Seun:
The resurrection of Jesus Christ is probably the most important event in Christianity. Apostle Paul said, "If Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (I Cor 15:14). He also said, "if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins". Did it really happen, though? Let's look at the evidence.

1. The Empty Tomb And The Men In White

Mark, which was the first gospel to be written, describes the incident in chapter 16:

Is it reasonable to accept this as evidence that Jesus rose from the dead? Let's see.

Jesus was the T B Joshua of his time. He came from a humble background, was loved by the masses because of his miracle ministry, and was hated by the religious establishment which didn't accept him as a true man of God and felt that his teachings were unscriptural.

Now lets imagine that T. B Joshua died, and then 3 days later the 3 women who were closest to him when he was alive in his ministry came to you with this story: That they went to T B Joshua's grave to pray and lay flowers, but when they got there, they saw that the grave had been opened, the body missing and a young guy in a white suit was sitting there. And the guy told them that T B Joshua had risen from the dead.

Would it be reasonable to believe that T B Joshua had risen from the dead on the basis of this testimony? Wouldn't you be suspicious that T B Joshua's body had been stolen by his top pastors to make it appear that he had risen? That the man in white was just an accomplice of the thieves? That maybe the women were hallucinating due to their grief, or simply lying to hype their hero and crush?

Luke's Gospel, written about 10 years later, describes the same incident thus:

Notice how the story has been altered to solve the issues with the first one, and spiced up?

Imagine if, in the hypothetical case of TB Joshua's alleged resurrection, the women who told you about his empty grave came back 10 years later to tell the same story. But this time, instead of a young man in a white suit who was sitting by the grave when they arrived, they claim that there was no one at T B joshua's grave initially and then suddenly, two men in glowing suits as bright as the sun (implying angels) appeared before them and gave them a scriptural lesson. Would those changes make the story more believable to you, or less so?

2. Appearing To His Closest Followers

According to Mark's Gospel,

In short, Jesus' closest followers claimed that he appeared to them at various times after his body went missing. Jesus closest followers had everything to lose by his death, and everything to gain by getting people to believe the resurrection story. They had sold all their posessions and left their families and professions to join Jesus' ministry. With his death, that ministry was finished, but the ressurection story brought it back to life. Knowing about this serious conflict of interest, it reasonable to accept their testimony as evidence that the resurrection actually happened?

If TB Joshua died and the top pastors in his church said he appeared to them, would you believe it for one moment?

3. His Appearance To 500 Believers

According to 1 Corinthians 15:6,

This would seem like the least weak evidence for the resurrection, due to the sheer number of potential witnesses, until you start to wonder why none of the Gospels mentioned it. Not even imaginative Luke of the robes as white as lightening. Why would all the Gospel writers have choosen to leave out what would have been their strongest evidence? 500 witnesses! Because it didn't happen? Because it was too early to tell such a big lie and get away with it? I don't know.

And even if we want to at issume that it happened, we must not forget that it would be quite easy for any illusionist to stage the appearance of Jesus to people who strongly want to believe that he is still alive. Benny Hinn tells a story about Jesus appearing during one of his crusades, and people believe it.

Conclusion:
The evidence for the resurrection of Jesus is a bunch of testimonies attributed to people who had every reason to lie during a period when people were far more superstitious and gullible than we are today because they didn't have science. It's not sufficient to convince an objective modern person that a 3 day old corpse whose brain and heart would have decayed considerably actually came back to life, held meetings in person with various people, and then ascended into outer space. Or ... What do you think?

Scholar8200:


That would only be if the followers of T.B.Joshua are as armed and rugged as ISIS, having what it takes to drive away the SEALS that were on guard! But what does the Bible reveal, the disciples were hiding when all this happened!

freshcvvs:


But the disciples also moved with weapons or you didn't know?

Scholar8200:
So,11 extremely frightened men descended on a band of well trained, fully armed soldiers with just 2 swords, and overpowered them, rolled away the stone and stole the body while the soldiers scampered to the pharisees to report that He rose from the dead and the pharisees bribed them to say instead that the disciples stole the body??

And then afterwards those disciples walk on the road while the same soldiers saw them and looked the other way?

Let's be reasonable!

freshcvvs:


How many armed men were there?
Was it not recorded they were fast asleep? What if they were drugged? Not possible?

Just thinking aloud and not to join in this back and forth stories.

Fynestboi:



@bolded really?

Seun:

Remember, we're talking about the persecution of the 11 disciples of Jesus who may have known that he didn't actually rise bodily. This is the part of Foxe's Book Of Matyrs that is relevant to this: www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox101.htm According to him, only John was not martyred .

As it is not our business to enlarge upon our Savior's history, either before or after His crucifixion, we shall only find it necessary to remind our readers of the discomfiture of the Jews by His subsequent resurrection. Although one apostle had betrayed Him; although another had denied Him, under the solemn sanction of an oath; and although the rest had forsaken Him, unless we may except "the disciple who was known unto the high-priest"; the history of His resurrection gave a new direction to all their hearts, and, after the mission of the Holy Spirit, imparted new confidence to their minds. The powers with which they were endued emboldened them to proclaim His name, to the confusion of the Jewish rulers, and the astonishment of Gentile proselytes.

Scholar8200:
Drugged with Another anachronism here! You need some enlightenement here:
http://bibleview.org/en/bible/easter/soldiers/

freshcvvs:


Sending a bible bias link to refute a bible contrary view? You're so smart in reverse.

ritababe:


check all his thread and see how he mocks Christianity, let me speak my mind.

ritababe:




so that gives him the right to insult ones religion?

Scholar8200:
Isnt that wonderful?

In any case, the point remains that there were fully armed soldiers there whose efficiency earns their life and failure costs their life and the 11 were holed up in a room for fear of the jews hence the lie that the Body was stolen by the same disciples is an exact illustration of what I just called it.

Scholar8200:
So,11 extremely frightened men descended on a band of well trained, fully armed soldiers with just 2 swords, and overpowered them, rolled away the stone and stole the body while the soldiers scampered to the pharisees to report that He rose from the dead and the pharisees bribed them to say instead that the disciples stole the body??

And then afterwards those disciples walk on the road while the same soldiers saw them and looked the other way?

Let's be reasonable!