In continuation of the pagan root of islam, mohammed retained, and even participated, the fasting methods of the mecca pagans (sahih bukhari 5:58:172) and also the doing of the tarwaf and marwan which involves walking tho and fro the two mounts. These are clearly pagan and pre-islamic practice that mohammed retained in islam (sahih bukhari 2:26:710) as approved by allahh (quran 2:158).

Hence it is crystal clear that most islamic practice have arabian pagan root and mohammed only modify (a bit) his ancetral religion so that it can have a global appeal.
After the death of mohammed, most muslim went back to their unadulterated meccan traditional religion. But a war was declared by Abu Bakr, the first rightly guided Khalifa, to bring apostates back to the fold of the muslim ummah hence the famous hadith which said 'whosoever change his religion, kill him' was invoked.

And this had served as the bedrock of ensuring the future muslims do not abandon the ummah without consequence.

Farmerforlife

It is the same Supreme Being recognized as the Creator across all faiths. The prophet Muhammad did not introduce Him, he just eliminated the practice of associating partners with Him, or attributing sons and daughters to Him.

You mean association of partners with Allah is the only difference between Mutaleb's worship as an idolarer and Muhammad's islam. How is it possible for idolaters to worship their idols the exact ways Allah is worshiped? How is idol worship COMPATIBLE with Allah's worship if they are not having a common.source?

After Abraham and Ishmael, there were many prophets of God that came, which the quran recognizes, right? Now, tell me, which of them was worshiping God by following islamic mode of worship if it was Abraham who introduced islamic worship? Is their God different from that of Ishamael and Abraham?

How come that prophets from Isaac, Jacob, and Moses to Jesus never went to Mecca to do any of those islamic rituals as Muslims do today if it was Abraham who established islamic worship? Neither the Bible nor the quran, not even hadith say they did. Even the Apostles (Jesus Disciples) never did.

Would those great men of God not visit Mecca and worship there islamically if islam was founded by God?

true2god:
On your first response, you said that both mohammed and his grandfather worshipped the same allahh, which is 100% true. The only difference is mohammed's infussing (re-packaging) of his grandfather's religion (or ancestral religion) by introducing some elements of christianity and Judaism into his ancestor's pagan religion. This is because mohammed had a daily interractions with the Jews and the christians at that time (quran 9:30). On the issue of attributing patner with God, the quran, in several occassions, made reference to 'allahh and his apostle'. As a matter of fact, there is hardly any separation of 'allahh and his apostle' in the quran. This scenario hence begged this statement by aisha: 'it seems allahh is always ready to fulfill your (mohammed's) heart desires' (sahih bukhari 6:60:331). This is an observation made by aisha, that mohammed will get away with many things all in the name of allahh. From a technical point of view, most of the words mohammed attributed to allahh are his own personal words and\or desires.

Of course, this is your opinion. The verse you quoted, in fact that entire surah, was revealed in Madinah, after most of the rites of worship, salaat, zakaat, fasting etc had already been instituted. Furthermore, none of the Muslim rites of worship were then , or are now, practised by Jews or Christians. In fact, if you can think of any Jewish or Christian sects that fast the way we do, pray the way we do, or fast the way we do, I will be very interested in knowing which precisely.

There is clear demarcation between Allah and His apostle. The prophet (ﷺ) makes it clear that any status attributed to him that gives him the right to be obeyed is by virtue of his position as His messenger. He is not to be worshipped or considered more than a messenger and servant of Allah. There is no ascribing partners to Allah in any case. The hadith quoting Aisha (ra) is not contextual and she obviously did not mean to impugn the authenticity of the Quran as you imply.

true2god:

On your second response, there is no any archeological proof the abraham or ishmael ever set foot on mecca. Mohammed himself claimed that the first mosque was built 40 year prior to the temple of solomon (sahih bukhari 4:55:636). If this statement is true, that means the the kabba was built around 998-991bc. But abraham lived approximately 2000bc and so going by mohammed's own statement in the hadith i provided, abraham had no business with the kabba. And as a matter of fact, mohammed also confirmed the pagan origin of the kabba and at a time contemplated destroying it (sahih bukhari 1:3:129).

There is no archeological proof of Abraham, Noah, Moses or any of the early prophets, much less where they set foot. This does not mean that they do not exist, or that they did not go where tradition asserts that they went.
The historical chronology of the building of the mosques speaks of their establishment as holy sites, not as buildings, although it refers to original structures. The Kaaba was traditionally first built by Adam, before it was destroyed in Noah's flood and rebuilt on the original site by Abraham. There is also controversy as to whether the Temple of Solomon was built in the spot where alAqsa mosque is... its location is not really known, so the prophet (ﷺ) may or may not have been referring to Solomon's Temple location. In all cases, there are reasons to believe that the site was considered a holy site even before Judaism, and there were Jebusite sanctuaries on the spot prior to King Solomon.

http://www.baseinstitute.org/pages/temple/22

As for your dates, they are merely speculative and based on biblical chronology which puts the creation of the earth at 6000+ years ago. Obviously, it is not to be taken seriously.
If we are going to be honest, I think we should completely reject all forms of half truths as well as falsehoods. The prophet (ﷺ) wanted to rebuild the Kaaba along the lines of Abraham's design, and this is what the hadith says, and this was carried out later by Abdullah ibn alZubair (ra) as narrated by Aisha (ra). It should be clarified here that it is not the actual building of the Kaaba that is considered a sanctuary, but the location where it stands, the same as alAqsa. The Kaaba had been demolished and rebuilt a number of times due to a need for restoring the aging stones, even before revelation was sent to the prophet (ﷺ) (for example the story of how he solved the problem of who was to replace the black stone during restoration when he was young).

true2god:

On your alleged claim that the OT had been corrupted because it did not mention hajj or kabba, please do you have any proove that it was corrupted. allahh said in quran 6:115, quran 18:27.

And the word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can alter His words, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

And recite, [O Muhammad], what has been revealed to you of the Book of your Lord. There is no changer of His words, and never will you find in other than Him a refuge.

In the verses above, allahh re-affirmed that his words cannot be changed or altered. Since allahh recongized the Jews and christians scriptures as his words\works, as the wholly quran confirms, why are muslims lying that the current Jewish and christian scriptures have been altered? Who is lying\confused here, you or allahh?

I did not claim that the OT has been corrupted BECAUSE it does not mention the Kaaba or hajj (again this is controversial, there are allusiins to both). I said it was corrupted, period, therefore unrelible as a historically accurate theatrise. This is not my own opinion, but the opinion of various Christian biblical scholars who are qualified in the field.
As for your quoted verses, they refer either to promises made by Allah (the first cited verse) or specifically to the Quran (the second cited verse). You can get this from context alone. Just reread the verses with an open mind.

true2god:

On the fourth answer you said that the muslims do not attach any religious significance to the moon and the sun. Can you tell me the meaning of the islamic symbol of the crescent moon and star? Is it a sheer co-incidence without any religious importance? Why did the sultan of sokoto shifted the fasting days a day longer because the moon was not sighted yet?

I have already told you that the crescent moon and star are carry overs from the Ottoman caliphate and have no value in Islam as religious symbols. The prophet (ﷺ) never used them on mosques or flags or any such insignia, nor did his companions or their companions. It is not coincidental, it was the choice of a recent Turkish caliphate that got copied by Muslims elsewhere. The Quran clearly says...

<<And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.>>
Quran 41:37

The moon sighting is a measure of timing. It enables the Sultan of Sokoto to ascertain the end of the lunar month of Ramadhan, and the beginning of the lunar month of Shawwal, which starts when the moon becomes visible. In fact, the feast of Passover which Jesus celebrated according to your bible, is also based on the lunar month, along with all Jewish holidays. I hope you are not trying to imply that Jesus also worshipped the moon?

true2god:

On the fifth answer, i agree with you. The Jews find the name of God too holy to be pronounced. On hebrew or Jewish lettering, it is written as YHWH (the tetragramatton) and most attempt to pronounce it as Yahweh. If thats is the case, do you still hold onto the view that the name of God is allahh?

Because there was no reason NOT to pronounce the name of Allah. The Jews corrupted their religion in a number of ways, exchanging the precepts of God for those of men. This is why the obedient original Jews are referred to as 'banu Israel', distinct from the Jews, which was reserved specifically for the disobedient ones.

true2god:

I apprciate your initial answers though fraught with half-truth and kithmanship.

You may insist that they are 'fraught with half-truth and kithmanship'. I repeat however, that a half truth is atill a lie, so is kithmanship based on falsehood. I never lie about my faith.

truthman2012:


You mean association of partners with Allah is the only difference between Mutaleb's worship as an idolarer and Muhammad's islam. How is it possible for idolaters to worship their idols the exact ways Allah is worshiped? How is idol worship COMPATIBLE with Allah's worship if they are not having a common.source?

After Abraham and Ishmael, there were many prophets of God that came, which the quran recognizes, right? Now, tell me, which of them was worshiping God by following islamic mode of worship if it was Abraham who introduced islamic worship? Is their God different from that of Ishamael and Abraham?

How come that prophets from Isaac, Jacob, and Moses to Jesus never went to Mecca to do any of those islamic rituals as Muslims do today if it was Abraham who established islamic worship? Neither the Bible nor the quran, not even hadith say they did. Even the Apostles (Jesus Disciples) never did.

Would those great men of God not visit Mecca and worship there islamically if islam was founded by God?

I have already addressed those issues. Please dont make me repeat endlessly. You are only asking the same questions in different ways.

Farmerforlife


I did not claim that the OT has been corrupted BECAUSE it does not mention the Kaaba or hajj (again this is controversial, there are allusiins to both). I said it was corrupted, period, therefore unrelible as a historically accurate theatrise. This is not my own opinion, but the opinion of various Christian biblical scholars who are qualified in the field.
As for your quoted verses, they refer either to promises made by Allah (the first cited verse) or specifically to the Quran (the second cited verse). You can get this from context alone. Just reread the verses with an open mind.

If anyone says the Bible is corrupted, such a person is not a Christian and then wonder where you got Bible Scholars who claimed the Bible is corrupted. If it is corrupted, why do they remain Christians? On which Book is their faith anchored as Christians if the Bible is corrupted? Stop the lies friend.

Again, the quran's inconsistencies about the Bible shows it (quran) is made up. Sometimes it says it is corrupt and sometimes it says it is authentic:

Allah told Muhammad to consult the Jews and the Christians if he was in doubt of the revelations he was receiving: (And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers (Quran 10:94)
Why would Allah refer Muhammad to the people who were in possession of corrupted Scripture?

Those unto whom we have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whose disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the loser (Quran 2:121)
Here we are told the problems of the earlier Scripture is the reading, i.e interpretation and not corruption. In fact you are enjoined to believe in it.

And when there cometh unto them a Scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession (Quran 2:89)
Are you not surprised that the quran says it was revealed to confirm and not to correct the Bible? But then, does it actually confirm or oppose it?

There is no controversy as to whether or not the Bible mentions Kaaba. Nowhere is Kaaba mentioned in the Bible and none of God's prophets recognized it as the house of God. My question remains: why did God's prophets in the Bible not recognize Kaaba and no reference was made to it if it was truly built by Abraham, their spiritual role model?

Olarajee:


Muhammad didn't bring the worship of Allaah, it started with the creation of man, Adam then to Abraham down to Moses, Jesus and all the prophets sent in between till the seal of all of them, Muhammad.

Darn! Heck! Mohamed the fvcking seal? My God! These fucqqers are amazing. Calling that murderous, thieving, immoral beast the seal of them all? This is wickedness of the higest order.

.

truthman2012:


If anyone says the Bible is corrupted, such a person is not a Christian and then wonder where you got Bible Scholars who claimed the Bible is corrupted. If it is corrupted, why do they remain Christians? On which Book is their faith anchored as Christians if the Bible is corrupted? Stop the lies friend.

Again, the quran's inconsistencies about the Bible shows it (quran) is made up. Sometimes it says it is corrupt and sometimes it says it is authentic:

Allah told Muhammad to consult the Jews and the Christians if he was in doubt of the revelations he was receiving: (And if thou art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers (Quran 10:94)
Why would Allah refer Muhammad to the people who were in possession of corrupted Scripture?

Those unto whom we have given the Scripture, who read it with the right reading, those believe in it. And whose disbelieveth in it, those are they who are the loser (Quran 2:121)
Here we are told the problems of the earlier Scripture is the reading, i.e interpretation and not corruption. In fact you are enjoined to believe in it.

And when there cometh unto them a Scripture from Allah, confirming that in their possession (Quran 2:89)
Are you not surprised that the quran says it was revealed to confirm and not to correct the Bible? But then, does it actually confirm or oppose it?

There is no controversy as to whether or not the Bible mentions Kaaba. Nowhere is Kaaba mentioned in the Bible and none of God's prophets recognized it as the house of God. My question remains: why did God's prophets in the Bible not recognize Kaaba and no reference was made to it if it was truly built by Abraham, their spiritual role model?

I dont want to enter into any arguments with you. From your past history, I can see that you are argumentative, hostile and really not sincere with your questions. You just seem to like wasting people's time, and I dont like entering into silly argument.

Sorry, no disrespect meant.

Farmerforlife:




I dont want to enter into any arguments with you. From your past history, I can see that you are argumentative, hostile and really not sincere with your questions. You just seem to like wasting people's time, and I dont like entering into silly argument.

Sorry, no disrespect meant.

Lol !!!!

It is now that you cannot refute my post you know I'm argumentative? Al-taqquiya !!!

I knew from the the beginning of my debate with you that you would soon be exhausted as there is a limit anyone can continue to to defend falsehood.

Your fellow islamists are afraid of confronting me and run from my threads in the name of ignoring them. If muslims will not desist from islamic allah who disguised as God and lead people into idolatry telling them it is also the worship of God, at least, nominal and ignorant Christians who would have fallen into islamic trap will be educated.

The simple reason that Allah was going back and forth in his words shows he is not the true God. He would say something is good today and tomorrow he would say the same thing is bad. He kept changing his words for manipulative reasons, saying the latest is the better one (Quran 2:106). Why would God be so weak that he would be wrong and correct himself always?

May God liberate the muslims from islamic deception.

Farmerforlife:


Only fringe sects of christianity like the Jehovah's Witness, reject the divinity of Jesus. And they are not even recognized as Christians by mainstream catholics, orthodox and protestant churches. I do not say that to state my own view of which is right or wrong theologically. Whenever we refer to 'christians', we are referring to the overwhelming majority of those who identify as such, not the insignificantly numbered fringe, so we are still correct.

Not all Jews speak Hebrew. Jews in Arabia then, spoke Arabic as their first language (and still do in Arab countries like Yemen), although their rabbis and scholars understood Hebrew and used it for their rituals and readings of the Torah, just like Jews in diverse countries today. There are various hadith of frequent conversations between the prophet (ﷺ) and the Jewish leaders and scholars. They referred to God as Allah. Many Jews were even called Abdullah, like Abdullah bin Salam, a foremost jewish scholar then, who converted to Islam.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Salam

Christians in pre-Islamic Arabia also did so (and still do so until now). What most of you today have been blinded to not understand is that Allah is the name of the Supreme Creator in Arabic, and is used as such across all faiths even in pre-Islamic Arabia; Christian, Jewish, Pagan and Hanif (monotheist theist).

Not all prophets have been from the children of Israel. Allah says in the Quran that prophets have been sent to every clan with the general message of monotheism. For example, we have the prophets Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail...etc, all of which are pre-judaic era. We also have more recent prophets described in the Quran, who were not Hebrews... Jonah, Shuaib, Saleh etc. The Quran did not mention all the prophets that have ever been sent (a hadith states that there were over 140,000 at different times to different tribes). All the prophets however, were Muslims (submissive to the Will of God) and monotheists (uncompromising worshippers of a Single, Unique, Indivisible, Omniscient, Omnipotent Creator of the universe and everything in it). There are traces of early monotheism in practically every faith on earth today, hinting at their early monotheistic origins which may have become corrupted later. Even Hinduism with its purported 360million gods, was originally monotheistic and the Brahmin priestly caste still affirm this, saying that polytheism is for the lower castes.

your knowledge of christianity is very limited, just like my own knowledge of Islam is also limited,its not true that only a fringe of the Christian world regard the trinity, infact the dichotomy between the Roman Catholic and the middle eastern, orthodox churches is the trinity, just like you Muslims shia and Sunni, because most of the world knows Sunni Muslim more does not make shia muslims inconsequence,
Hebrew, Aramaic and Arabic are all Semitic language.

Hebrew came first during moses to the 2nd exodus after the jew people came back they spoke Aramaic which is the language Jesus Spoke, Arabic became popular in the region with the rise of Islam, the jew that converted to Islam the name you mentioned is in Arabic, Hebrew is latin to Aramaic and Arabic just like French and Spanish.

Johna was a jew from Northern part of Israel,
If the hadith and the koran didn't mention anyother prophets just a number figures how do we verify them? how do we know which one is more truthful between all the books.

truthman2012:


Lol !!!!

It is now that you cannot refute my post you know I'm argumentative? Al-taqquiya !!!

I knew from the the beginning of my debate with you that you would soon be exhausted as there is a limit anyone can continue to to defend falsehood.

Your fellow islamists are afraid of confronting me and run from my threads in the name of ignoring them. If muslims will not desist from islamic allah who disguised as God and lead people into idolatry telling them it is also the worship of God, at least, nominal and ignorant Christians who would have fallen into islamic trap will be educated.

The simple reason that Allah was going back and forth in his words shows he is not the true God. He would say something is good today and tomorrow he would say the same thing is bad. He kept changing his words for manipulative reasons, saying the latest is the better one (Quran 2:106). Why would God be so weak that he would be wrong and correct himself always?

May God liberate the muslims from islamic deception.

Lol. Let me tell you a little home truth bro, just in case you have really deluded yourself into thinking that 'my fellow Islamists' ignore you because of your smartness or your 'convincing' arguments...

-I dont know your level of education, but your writing composition is not always coherent. Other people reading the thread cannot read your mind, so you need to cool down and really make your premise known. Just reread the above comment (and all your other comments) and you will understand what I mean.
-Your arguments are repetitive. You dont seem to understand that asking the same questions in ten different ways until the responder gets irritated is different from presenting clear proof of your premise.
-You do not seem to understand, or even read responses to your questions. You ask, then you answer, your own questions, regardless of what everyone else has responded. You also ignore links provided or evidence presented. I think you should try to take lessons on comprehension techniques, or learn how to listen for the sake of understanding, not for the sake of arguing.
-Like I said earlier, you seem to be on a crusade. You have memorised some twisted points about Islam, probably from anti-Islam websites. You do not really seem to actually understand either the points you raise, or the refutations presented. You just repeat them verbatim and keep on insisting on them no matter how logical the explanation given to you is. The overall technique seems to be to exhaust your debater into silence through irritation, not logic.

You may believe what you wish concerning this thread, I am not really interested, but in the interest of intellectual debate, I advice that you try to up your level of understanding and manner of response, so that your threads may have more credibility, and 'my fellow islamists' as well as others, will not have to face a choice between leaving you to wallow in your ignorant threads, or facing the tedium of responding to the same question in dozens of different ways.

I really wish you well though.

Farmerforlife:


Lol. Let me tell you a little home truth bro, just in case you have really deluded yourself into thinking that 'my fellow Islamists' ignore you because of your smartness or your 'convincing' arguments...

-I dont know your level of education, but your writing composition is not always coherent. Other people reading the thread cannot read your mind, so you need to cool down and really make your premise known. Just reread the above comment (and all your other comments) and you will understand what I mean.
-Your arguments are repetitive. You dont seem to understand that asking the same questions in ten different ways until the responder gets irritated is different from presenting clear proof of your premise.
-You do not seem to understand, or even read responses to your questions. You ask, then you answer, your own questions, regardless of what everyone else has responded. You also ignore links provided or evidence presented. I think you should try to take lessons on comprehension techniques, or learn how to listen for the sake of understanding, not for the sake of arguing.
-Like I said earlier, you seem to be on a crusade. You have memorised some twisted points about Islam, probably from anti-Islam websites. You do not really seem to actually understand either the points you raise, or the refutations presented. You just repeat them verbatim and keep on insisting on them no matter how logical the explanation given to you is. The overall technique seems to be to exhaust your debater into silence through irritation, not logic.

You may believe what you wish concerning this thread, I am not really interested, but in the interest of intellectual debate, I advice that you try to up your level of understanding and manner of response, so that your threads may have more credibility, and 'my fellow islamists' as well as others, will not have to face a choice between leaving you to wallow in your ignorant threads, or facing the tedium of responding to the same question in dozens of different ways.

I really wish you well though.

Trash !!!

You accused me of repeating questions, it is because I haven't got satisfactory answers. There is no other religion in which words are more repeated than in islam. You keep reciting the same thing since Muhammad's time till now and yet you have the gut to accuse me of repetition.

Those quranic verses proving Allah as inconsistent are my own words or I do not understand them? Or you mean I should just take your explanations as correct even when I know they are ordinary al-taqquiyah. Those quranic verses I cited above are clear enough to aducate any sane person that Allah is a deceiver. He deceived the muslims to disbelieve the Bible, reduced the spiritual status of Jesus and introduced Arabic idolatry to them as the worship of God.

I have kept asking and no islamists have been able to explain why all of God's prophets didn't talk about islamic rituals they do in Mecca and why even Isaac had no record of participating in the islamic rituals credited to Abraham and Ishamael in Mecca. You will do well to let us know where it is said in the quran or hadith that Sarah and Isaac worshipped islamically in Mecca. Or was islam meant for only Abraham, Ishmael and Hagai? Lies of the Devil.

Abraham never stepped his feet in Mecca, we are told where he lived and died in the Bible. Ishamael also didn't go to Mecca, the Bible tells us where he lived and died.

Farmerforlife:


Of course, this is your opinion. The verse you quoted, in fact that entire surah, was revealed in Madinah, after most of the rites of worship, salaat, zakaat, fasting etc had already been instituted. Furthermore, none of the Muslim rites of worship were then , or are now, practised by Jews or Christians. In fact, if you can think of any Jewish or Christian sects that fast the way we do, pray the way we do, or fast the way we do, I will be very interested in knowing which precisely.

There is clear demarcation between Allah and His apostle. The prophet (ﷺ) makes it clear that any status attributed to him that gives him the right to be obeyed is by virtue of his position as His messenger. He is not to be worshipped or considered more than a messenger and servant of Allah. There is no ascribing partners to Allah in any case. The hadith quoting Aisha (ra) is not contextual and she obviously did not mean to impugn the authenticity of the Quran as you imply.



There is no archeological proof of Abraham, Noah, Moses or any of the early prophets, much less where they set foot. This does not mean that they do not exist, or that they did not go where tradition asserts that they went.
The historical chronology of the building of the mosques speaks of their establishment as holy sites, not as buildings, although it refers to original structures. The Kaaba was traditionally first built by Adam, before it was destroyed in Noah's flood and rebuilt on the original site by Abraham. There is also controversy as to whether the Temple of Solomon was built in the spot where alAqsa mosque is... its location is not really known, so the prophet (ﷺ) may or may not have been referring to Solomon's Temple location. In all cases, there are reasons to believe that the site was considered a holy site even before Judaism, and there were Jebusite sanctuaries on the spot prior to King Solomon.

http://www.baseinstitute.org/pages/temple/22

As for your dates, they are merely speculative and based on biblical chronology which puts the creation of the earth at 6000+ years ago. Obviously, it is not to be taken seriously.
If we are going to be honest, I think we should completely reject all forms of half truths as well as falsehoods. The prophet (ﷺ) wanted to rebuild the Kaaba along the lines of Abraham's design, and this is what the hadith says, and this was carried out later by Abdullah ibn alZubair (ra) as narrated by Aisha (ra). It should be clarified here that it is not the actual building of the Kaaba that is considered a sanctuary, but the location where it stands, the same as alAqsa. The Kaaba had been demolished and rebuilt a number of times due to a need for restoring the aging stones, even before revelation was sent to the prophet (ﷺ) (for example the story of how he solved the problem of who was to replace the black stone during restoration when he was young).



I did not claim that the OT has been corrupted BECAUSE it does not mention the Kaaba or hajj (again this is controversial, there are allusiins to both). I said it was corrupted, period, therefore unrelible as a historically accurate theatrise. This is not my own opinion, but the opinion of various Christian biblical scholars who are qualified in the field.
As for your quoted verses, they refer either to promises made by Allah (the first cited verse) or specifically to the Quran (the second cited verse). You can get this from context alone. Just reread the verses with an open mind.



I have already told you that the crescent moon and star are carry overs from the Ottoman caliphate and have no value in Islam as religious symbols. The prophet (ﷺ) never used them on mosques or flags or any such insignia, nor did his companions or their companions. It is not coincidental, it was the choice of a recent Turkish caliphate that got copied by Muslims elsewhere. The Quran clearly says...

<<And of His signs are the night and day and the sun and moon. Do not prostrate to the sun or to the moon, but prostate to Allah , who created them, if it should be Him that you worship.>>
Quran 41:37

The moon sighting is a measure of timing. It enables the Sultan of Sokoto to ascertain the end of the lunar month of Ramadhan, and the beginning of the lunar month of Shawwal, which starts when the moon becomes visible. In fact, the feast of Passover which Jesus celebrated according to your bible, is also based on the lunar month, along with all Jewish holidays. I hope you are not trying to imply that Jesus also worshipped the moon?



Because there was no reason NOT to pronounce the name of Allah. The Jews corrupted their religion in a number of ways, exchanging the precepts of God for those of men. This is why the obedient original Jews are referred to as 'banu Israel', distinct from the Jews, which was reserved specifically for the disobedient ones.



You may insist that they are 'fraught with half-truth and kithmanship'. I repeat however, that a half truth is atill a lie, so is kithmanship based on falsehood. I never lie about my faith.

The christians and the Jews already had an established pattern of worship before islam. And unlike islam, christianity is not a political religion which does not separate the religion from the state. Unlike islam, christianity didnt teach its members how to extort money from non-christians, as mohammed asked muslims to do (quran 9:29). Jesus didnt asked christians to fight and humiliate non-christians as mohammed commanded (quran 9:29). And unlike islam which teaches war plans and strategy against non-muslims (quran 9:5, quran 8:30 and quran 48:29), Jesus forbade his followers from doing all these criminal activities which mohammed asked muslims to engage in.

And on the issue of fasting, Jesus didnt give a compulsory period for fasting, tho' he urged his followers to always fast and pray. Fasting is a spiritual exercise that is meant to be secretive and personal between a man and his God. It should not be a festival or a feasting period as muslims do. By christian standard, if people know you are fasting it is null and void but in islam it is always a public display of self-righteousness which Jesus condemned as hypocrisy. And for your information, muslims in the arab world consume and waste more foods during ramadan. You can google this up. Why should people fasting consume and waste more food, and develop obesity during fasting? This only happen in islam.

On your second point, you said that the kabba was originally built by adam which is to say that the origin of man started from saudi arabia since adam is the first man. However secular history and archaelogy prooves that modern man originated from africa:
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070718-african-origin.html

biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-origin-of-modern-humans-the-fossil-evidence-part-1

So your claim that adam built kabba is false and has no proof outside islamic theology which had been proven false time and time again. So if the first man did not originate from the arabia nor is there any evidence he migrated there (as they do not have any means or knowledge of transport system then) then your assertion that adam built kabba is false. If your first premise is false, your second premise that abraham 're-built' kabba is also false.

You claim the OT had been corrupted, possibly because it did not support mohammed quranic narrative, that is also false. If you say the OT is corrupt, the you make allahh a liar and inconsistent in his words. However if you accept the OT as being true, then you make mohammed a liar. Whichever way, it is a lose-lose scenario for the muslims vis-a-vis their 'the bible is corrupt' argument.

On the islamic trade-mark symbol, that is the crescent moon and star, it is a pagan symbol retained in islam. Archelogical escavations, especially in afganistan, had shown many statues having a crescent moon on its chest. It is not a co-incidence that islam also incorporate that insignia into their religious symbol. Please stop blaming turkey or the othman empire on this, you make us look like idiots and we are no idiots or fools. Some of us take pain to research the history and origin of religions.

Lastly, I dont wanna dwell on the issue of allahh or no allahh. I have already made my points that the allahh that mohammed worship is the same allahh his grandfather, abdul-mutalib, worshipped. Mohammed's grandfather is an idol worshipper, why would mohammed then be different since he seem to be a custodian of the religion of his ancestors.

Good night bro.

true2god:
The christians and the Jews already had an established pattern of worship before islam. And unlike islam, christianity is not a political religion which does not separate the religion from the state. Unlike islam, christianity didnt teach its members how to extort money from non-christians, as mohammed asked muslims to do (quran 9:29). Jesus didnt asked christians to fight and humiliate non-christians as mohammed commanded (quran 9:29). And unlike islam which teaches war plans and strategy against non-muslims (quran 9:5, quran 8:30 and quran 48:29), Jesus forbade his followers from doing all these criminal activities which mohammed asked muslims to engage in.

Actually, I would have ignored this emotional outburst from you, but I just would like to point out that you believe that Jesus is God, and was with God (even at the time of the Israeli conquests). Therefore, he must have been part of the God that ordered the Hebrews to slaughter, rape and steal the lands of non believers... activities which you claim to be crimes. Were Moses and Joshua criminals? Did Jesus order them to commit crimes as part of the trinity? He couldnt have asked christians to fight unbelievers, because 12 disciples (one of whom was a traitor) could not have taken on the Roman Empire. He did command widespread slaughter of Amalekites, Canaanites, Jebusites, Phillistines etc earlier (while he was still with 'God the father'). And we discover that Christians did not shun the use of the sword to convert the heathen after they became numerous enough to do so. This leads us to believe that not fighting unbelievers in Jesus' time was due to lack of opportunity, not intention.

true2god:

And on the issue of fasting, Jesus didnt give a compulsory period for fasting, tho' he urged his followers to always fast and pray. Fasting is a spiritual exercise that is meant to be secretive and personal between a man and his God. It should not be a festival or a feasting period as muslims do. By christian standard, if people know you are fasting it is null and void but in islam it is always a public display of self-righteousness which Jesus condemned as hypocrisy. And for your information, muslims in the arab world consume and waste more foods during ramadan. You can google this up. Why should people fasting consume and waste more food, and develop obesity during fasting? This only happen in islam.

Since you have no recourse to stipulations on fasting in your religion, I do not think you have a right to describe what fasting should or should not be. Christians fast? Dont make me laugh, a christian once told me that he fasts by reducing his morning bread intake from N100 bread to N60, no kidding. Who is to say that he was wrong according to christianity? We do not fast to show off, we fast in obedience to our Lord who told us when and how to fast. It is not our faults if you non Muslims are more eager to calculate how many days we fasted, and how many days are left than we are. If your mind was not constantly bothered by our fasting, you would not have even known that we were doing so.

true2god:

On your second point, you said that the kabba was originally built by adam which is to say that the origin of man started from saudi arabia since adam is the first man. However secular history and archaelogy prooves that modern man originated from africa:
news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070718-african-origin.html

biologos.org/blogs/archive/the-origin-of-modern-humans-the-fossil-evidence-part-1

So your claim that adam built kabba is false and has no proof outside islamic theology which had been proven false time and time again. So if the first man did not originate from the arabia nor is there any evidence he migrated there (as they do not have any means or knowledge of transport system then) then your assertion that adam built kabba is false. If your first premise is false, your second premise that abraham 're-built' kabba is also false.

So you now believe that we descended from Ape-like creatures in Africa? And your whole refutation of my statement on the building of the Kaaba rests on this theory? Lol. It wasnt Adam the christian half ape that built the Kaaba. It was Adam the full human that did so. Science is full of ever changing theories and it has not established with any degree of certainty where mankind started from. Here are other, newer links showing that mankind started in the Middle East...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1341973/Did-humans-come-Middle-East-Africa-Scientists-forced-write-evolution-modern-man.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8227204/Did-the-first-humans-come-out-of-Middle-East.html

Based on this, do you now believe that Adam built the Kaaba, therefore Abraham rebuilt it, therefore Islam is true?

true2god:

You claim the OT had been corrupted, possibly because it did not support mohammed quranic narrative, that is also false. If you say the OT is corrupt, the you make allahh a liar and inconsistent in his words. However if you accept the OT as being true, then you make mohammed a liar. Whichever way, it is a lose-lose scenario for the muslims vis-a-vis their 'the bible is corrupt' argument.

Allah never said that the OT is not corrupt, so there is no contradiction to its being so. Even the OT itself says that it is corrupt, and that the 'wise' interpreters of the law have rejected the original word of the Lord...

<How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?>
Jeremiah 8:8

I mean, can anyone believe that our Lord and Creator is the revealer of these following words

<There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.>
(Ezekiel 23:20)

I mean, come on for crying out loud! Why would our Creator engage in such vulgar word play? God is truly far above all that you non Muslims attribute to Him.

To educate you in detail, the Torah revealed to Moses, and which makes up part of the present OT was meant only for a short period of time, for the Hebrews alone. It was never meant by Allah to last forever, or to be applied on all mankind. Only the Quran is, and for this reason, only the Quran was preserved perfectly.

true2god:

On the islamic trade-mark symbol, that is the crescent moon and star, it is a pagan symbol retained in islam. Archelogical escavations, especially in afganistan, had shown many statues having a crescent moon on its chest. It is not a co-incidence that islam also incorporate that insignia into their religious symbol. Please stop blaming turkey or the othman empire on this, you make us look like idiots and we are no idiots or fools. Some of us take pain to research the history and origin of religions.

Perhaps the idiocy lies in you trying to tie the moon and star symbol to Islam by hook or by crook. The issue is very simple, bring forward a narration, or an archeological or historical finding, proving that Muslims at the time of the prophet (ﷺ) or his companions, used the symbol of the crescent moon on their flags, mosques or as part of their insignia. Come on, I challenge you. I will accept any non fabricated evidence you present.

true2god:

Lastly, I dont wanna dwell on the issue of allahh or no allahh. I have already made my points that the allahh that mohammed worship is the same allahh his grandfather, abdul-mutalib, worshipped. Mohammed's grandfather is an idol worshipper, why would mohammed then be different since he seem to be a custodian of the religion of his ancestors.

We have already dwelt exhaustively on this topic earlier. If you insist on holding on to your beliefs in the face of all logical explanation, then there is nothing anyone can do.

true2god:

Good night bro.

Good night.

Farmerforlife:


Actually, I would have ignored this emotional outburst from you, but I just would like to point out that you believe that Jesus is God, and was with God (even at the time of the Israeli conquests). Therefore, he must have been part of the God that ordered the Hebrews to slaughter, rape and steal the lands of non believers... activities which you claim to be crimes. Were Moses and Joshua criminals? Did Jesus order them to commit crimes as part of the trinity? He couldnt have asked christians to fight unbelievers, because 12 disciples (one of whom was a traitor) could not have taken on the Roman Empire. He did command widespread slaughter of Amalekites, Canaanites, Jebusites, Phillistines etc earlier (while he was still with 'God the father'). And we discover that Christians did not shun the use of the sword to convert the heathen after they became numerous enough to do so. This leads us to believe that not fighting unbelievers in Jesus' time was due to lack of opportunity, not intention.



Since you have no recourse to stipulations on fasting in your religion, I do not think you have a right to describe what fasting should or should not be. Christians fast? Dont make me laugh, a christian once told me that he fasts by reducing his morning bread intake from N100 bread to N60, no kidding. Who is to say that he was wrong according to christianity? We do not fast to show off, we fast in obedience to our Lord who told us when and how to fast. It is not our faults if you non Muslims are more eager to calculate how many days we fasted, and how many days are left than we are. If your mind was not constantly bothered by our fasting, you would not have even known that we were doing so.



So you now believe that we descended from Ape-like creatures in Africa? And your whole refutation of my statement on the building of the Kaaba rests on this theory? Lol. It wasnt Adam the christian half ape that built the Kaaba. It was Adam the full human that did so. Science is full of ever changing theories and it has not established with any degree of certainty where mankind started from. Here are other, newer links showing that mankind started in the Middle East...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1341973/Did-humans-come-Middle-East-Africa-Scientists-forced-write-evolution-modern-man.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/8227204/Did-the-first-humans-come-out-of-Middle-East.html

Based on this, do you now believe that Adam built the Kaaba, therefore Abraham rebuilt it, therefore Islam is true?



Allah never said that the OT is not corrupt, so there is no contradiction to its being so. Even the OT itself says that it is corrupt, and that the 'wise' interpreters of the law have rejected the original word of the Lord...

<How can you say, “We are wise, for we have the law of the Lord,” when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? The wise will be put to shame; they will be dismayed and trapped. Since they have rejected the word of the Lord, what kind of wisdom do they have?>
Jeremiah 8:8

I mean, can anyone believe that our Lord and Creator is the revealer of these following words

<There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.>
(Ezekiel 23:20)

I mean, come on for crying out loud! Why would our Creator engage in such vulgar word play? God is truly far above all that you non Muslims attribute to Him.

To educate you in detail, the Torah revealed to Moses, and which makes up part of the present OT was meant only for a short period of time, for the Hebrews alone. It was never meant by Allah to last forever, or to be applied on all mankind. Only the Quran is, and for this reason, only the Quran was preserved perfectly.



Perhaps the idiocy lies in you trying to tie the moon and star symbol to Islam by hook or by crook. The issue is very simple, bring forward a narration, or an archeological or historical finding, proving that Muslims at the time of the prophet (ﷺ) or his companions, used the symbol of the crescent moon on their flags, mosques or as part of their insignia. Come on, I challenge you. I will accept any non fabricated evidence you present.



We have already dwelt exhaustively on this topic earlier. If you insist on holding on to your beliefs in the face of all logical explanation, then there is nothing anyone can do.



Good night.

Jesus said in Matthew 6:16, "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. And now compare how an average muslim fast by telling the whole world they are fasting in a manner that shows a form of showmanship and hypocrisy. Besides, the arabs consume more foods at ramadan, why is this so?
www.nielsen.com/sa/en/insights/news/2015/the-ramadan-effect-reflecting-on-food-consumption-in-united-arab-emirates-and-saudi-arabia.html
www.barenakedislam.com/2013/07/15/why-do-muslims-get-so-fat-during-ramadan-when-they-fast-from-dawn-to-dusk-everyday-for-a-month/

So it is funny that muslims eat more and some develop obesity during ramadan. You should also note that mecca experience the highest food wastage at ramadan period. Is fasting synonymous to feasting, as we see in islam?

On your alleged wars in the bible, non of them have a religious undertone. The wars recorded are part of Jewish history and never a religious ones to convert infidels to Yahweh. Even today the Jews are still fighting on land issues, especially against the arab world. You will agree with me that christianity and islam never came to light when those biblical wars took place. On the other hand all the wars fought and commanded by mohammed are religious in nature to convert people to islam (under the sword of allahh). Many quranic passages and hadith sanctioned war against non-muslims or people who refused to embrase islam. Let us look at these few ones:

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me (my words: this is a threat that can only come from a criminal).”

Sahih Muslim 30—Muhammad said: “I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah.”

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

Quran 9:29-Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled.

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.” (my words: this can only come from an evil and genocidal person like mohammed)

Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103 —Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”

And to cap it all, mohammed concluded that he had been made victorious by means of terrors. See the hadith below:

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220 Narrated Abu Huraira: allahh's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: allahh's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them). Since mohammed is the mulims perfect man, the muslims have no problem being terrorist.

Still on who built the kabba, do you suggest we ignore science and archaelogy and accept the islamic narrative that the first man to step on surface earth happen to be in mecca? We are not talking about evolution here but the history of early men which over 90% of anthropologist and archaelogist concluded started from africa. If a portion of science supports the quran muslims will celebrate it as a proove to authenticate the quran but will ignore any scientific findings that rejects the quran. This is hypocrisy and double standard. There is no single proof, remotely or otherwise, that mecca is the origin of modern man and your claim that adam (the supposed first man) lived in mecca. It is a folklore in islamic mythology without any non-islamic authentication.

On Jeremiah 8:8, this is the height of islamic malicious claim to render the Jewish scriptures null and viod, even when allahh did not void it but asked muslims to consult the people of the book in any area they are confused. It seems muslims know better than allahh. Jeremiah talked about some Jewish scribed who manipulated the law to give the people a false sense of security. If you read Jeremiah chapter 7:1-29, it is the announcement of God judgement against the people for the disobedince but the scribes were telling the people different thing hence God stated that those scribes 'are lying scribes'. I know you are intelligent, read Jeremiah chapter 7 and 8 and stop following the standard muslims mantra.

I dont want to make my post too lengthy. I will respond on the pagan origin of the crescent moon and star with archaelogical photographs on sculptures dating back to pre-islamic era. At least a visual presentation and hard evidence will assist you, if only you do not uncompromisingly hold onto the mosque and madrassas narratives that provided no single scientific or secular evidence.

Farmerforlife:


I have already addressed those issues. Please dont make me repeat endlessly. You are only asking the same questions in different ways.

Sallam Bro, i think u are yet to knw who dis guys are !
You will surely come to know why alot of brothers there stop replying them. There r completely senseless n time wasting but u can still help out with what u can for the sake of the readers seeking for the truth but not for dis critics. Wasllsm

true2god:
In continuation of the pagan root of islam, mohammed retained, and even participated, the fasting methods of the mecca pagans (sahih bukhari 5:58:172) and also the doing of the tarwaf and marwan which involves walking tho and fro the two mounts. These are clearly pagan and pre-islamic practice that mohammed retained in islam (sahih bukhari 2:26:710) as approved by allahh (quran 2:158).

Hence it is crystal clear that most islamic practice have arabian pagan root and mohammed only modify (a bit) his ancetral religion so that it can have a global appeal.
After the death of mohammed, most muslim went back to their unadulterated meccan traditional religion. But a war was declared by Abu Bakr, the first rightly guided Khalifa, to bring apostates back to the fold of the muslim ummah hence the famous hadith which said 'whosoever change his religion, kill him' was invoked.

And this had served as the bedrock of ensuring the future muslims do not abandon the ummah without consequence.

how market mr critic?
u just can't stop decieving urself! Wasn't it d same topic that was trashed last year and now u are bringing up again confusing ur fellow xtians more. There is no gain i told several times didn't i? I suggest u should go n start analyzing those contracting verses from paul, mark, mathew and john in ur bible rather than wasting ur time here, there r a lot of confused xtians like you wanting to know why, when, how and who in ur book they need u d most

"https://www.nairaland.com/2287893/allah-loves-pagans-hates-jews/1#39781433"

authenticmoha:
i have more to say but due to time factor i just have to go bt answer my question if u call Jesus lord what will GOD

We call Him Lord because He claimed He is,and went ahead to proof it and He is still proofing it.

authenticmoha:
who told u that we are praying to idols or prophet Muhammad (S.A.W) we pray to almighty Allah .why do u called jesus lord if u call him lord then what will u call GOD if u say we are worshipping idol tell me which idol has a magnificent power to allow the crescent moon to come on the month of ramadan on the last the day of ramadan when Almighty GOD who created Heaven and Earth is on the throne.why do u people usually pray to jesus and why mwot Almighty GOD you don't have to pray to jesus before your prayer is going to GOD.we don't have to pray to the prophet before our prayers is going to be answered so take note

Bros Lunar Eclipse occur every month of the year. I learnt that in my elementary geography class. If you are in doubt ask NASA.

masseratti:
not all Christians refer Jesus as God, not all Christians believe in the concept of trinity, you guys should drop that please, how is it possible for the Jewish people to call God in Arabic Allah? they have their own language and its different, how come all the prophets are Jewish except Muhammad.

I am a prophet and not a Jew.

Farmerforlife:


Only fringe sects of christianity like the Jehovah's Witness, reject the divinity of Jesus. And they are not even recognized as Christians by mainstream catholics, orthodox and protestant churches. I do not say that to state my own view of which is right or wrong theologically. Whenever we refer to 'christians', we are referring to the overwhelming majority of those who identify as such, not the insignificantly numbered fringe, so we are still correct.

Not all Jews speak Hebrew. Jews in Arabia then, spoke Arabic as their first language (and still do in Arab countries like Yemen), although their rabbis and scholars understood Hebrew and used it for their rituals and readings of the Torah, just like Jews in diverse countries today. There are various hadith of frequent conversations between the prophet (ﷺ) and the Jewish leaders and scholars. They referred to God as Allah. Many Jews were even called Abdullah, like Abdullah bin Salam, a foremost jewish scholar then, who converted to Islam.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Salam

Christians in pre-Islamic Arabia also did so (and still do so until now). What most of you today have been blinded to not understand is that Allah is the name of the Supreme Creator in Arabic, and is used as such across all faiths even in pre-Islamic Arabia; Christian, Jewish, Pagan and Hanif (monotheist theist).

Not all prophets have been from the children of Israel. Allah says in the Quran that prophets have been sent to every clan with the general message of monotheism. For example, we have the prophets Adam, Noah, Abraham, Ismail...etc, all of which are pre-judaic era. We also have more recent prophets described in the Quran, who were not Hebrews... Jonah, Shuaib, Saleh etc. The Quran did not mention all the prophets that have ever been sent (a hadith states that there were over 140,000 at different times to different tribes). All the prophets however, were Muslims (submissive to the Will of God) and monotheists (uncompromising worshippers of a Single, Unique, Indivisible, Omniscient, Omnipotent Creator of the universe and everything in it). There are traces of early monotheism in practically every faith on earth today, hinting at their early monotheistic origins which may have become corrupted later. Even Hinduism with its purported 360million gods, was originally monotheistic and the Brahmin priestly caste still affirm this, saying that polytheism is for the lower castes.

Yes got you there, you said indivisible, but my own God is Omnipresent. He can divide Himself to infinitesimally units and be everywhere at the same time. Isn't my God the greatest. ?

aminusanti:

how market mr critic?
u just can't stop decieving urself! Wasn't it d same topic that was trashed last year and now u are bringing up again confusing ur fellow xtians more. There is no gain i told several times didn't i? I suggest u should go n start analyzing those contracting verses from paul, mark, mathew and john in ur bible rather than wasting ur time here, there r a lot of confused xtians like you wanting to know why, when, how and who in ur book they need u d most

"https://www.nairaland.com/2287893/allah-loves-pagans-hates-jews/1#39781433"

For the fact that we have talked about it before does not mean we should ignore it now, more people are joining nairaland who were not part of the last discussion.

The practice of marwan and tarfa, as aisha noted, was performed by meccan pagans in the pre-islamic era and was regarded, by aisha, as part of idolatary. Why will islam continue with a practice associated with paganism? The standard response from muslim apologist was that hagar and ishmeal did it hence muslims must also, like robots, perform the 'pagan ritual'. And from history, aside from saudi revised history, neither abraham nor ishmeal set foot on mecca. The Jewish scriptures, which mohammed plagarized, never mentioned mecca or kabba for once neither did any Jewish prophet (moses, jesus, daniel, isiah, jeremiah, the disciples, etc) ever talked about mecca or kabba. Why are muslims deceiving us? allahh asked muslims to seek the 'people of the book' (the jews and the christians) for re-confirmation if muslims need clarifications on his 'revelations' to mohammed, why are muslims now more intelligent that allahh?

Muslims wanna make islam look like a rocket science through conflicting tasfirs and hadiths (weak hadith, fake hadiths and authentic hadith excuses) but we will continue the good work of making them understand their text if they lack intellectual capacity to analyse and interprete them. No offense intended bro.

aminusanti:

Sallam Bro, i think u are yet to knw who dis guys are !
You will surely come to know why alot of brothers there stop replying them. There r completely senseless n time wasting but u can still help out with what u can for the sake of the readers seeking for the truth but not for dis critics. Wasllsm

I think I am beginning to realise. Jazakum Allah khayran for the pointer.

true2god:
For the fact that we have talked about it before does not mean we should ignore it now, more people are joining nairaland who were not part of the last discussion.

any sensible person that read the prev discussion will surely come to know all your queries were answered accordingly but unfortunately you are not here for the answers.

As i mentioned earlier these were things that were there before paganism.They were rituals which were done by Ibrahim (Abraham) and Ishamael . The people of the area followed the religion of Ibrahim through the guidance of Ishmael since he was the prophet of the area. As time went on and he passed away the people started to stray away from the religion and started introducing foreign things and other gods into their worship. In the end the only thing that was left from the religion of Ibrahim and Ishmael were those few things.

The practice of marwan and tarfa, as aisha noted, was performed by meccan pagans in the pre-islamic era and was regarded, by aisha, as part of idolatary. Why will islam continue with a practice associated with paganism? The standard response from muslim apologist was that hagar and ishmeal did it hence muslims must also, like robots, perform the 'pagan ritual'. And from history, aside from saudi revised history, neither abraham nor ishmeal set foot on mecca.

What r your proof on abraham(pbh) n ishmaeal(pbh) did not set foot on mecca?? Waiting..

here r my proofs!

"Behold! We gave the site, To Abraham, of the (Sacred) House [That is the Kaaba that he built], (Saying): 'Associate not anything (In worship) with Me; And sanctify My House For those who compass it round, Or stand up, Or bow, or prostrate themselves (Therein in prayer). And proclaim the Pilgrimage among men: they will come to thee on foot and (mounted) on every kind of camel, lean on account of journeys through deep and distant mountain highways; (The Noble Quran, 22:26-27)"

The Jewish scriptures, which mohammed plagarized, never mentioned mecca or kabba for once neither did any Jewish prophet (moses, jesus, daniel, isiah, jeremiah, the disciples, etc) ever talked about mecca or kabba. Why are muslims deceiving us ?

Isaiah 606. The multitude of camels shall cover thee, the dromedaries of Midian and Ephah; all they from Sheba shall come: they shall bring gold and incense; and they shall shew forth the praises of the LORD. 

7. "All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered together unto thee, the rams of Nebaioth shall minister unto thee: they shall come up with acceptance on mine altar, and I will glorify the house of my glory".

Isaiah 35.8 "And a highway will be there; it will be called the Way of Holiness; it will be for those who walk on that Way. The unclean will not journey on it; wicked fools will not go about on it"

Few points to notice here:

If this is the case, then this prosperity has got to be Islam! This is further seen in the "Way of Holiness" (Isaiah 35:that Arabia will have in it, that no unclean person is allowed to take. This would, without a doubt, then be referring to the Muslims' yearly pilgrimage to Mecca, today.

And now tell me are these rituals copied from pagans??

Islam's Rituals are supported by the previous Scriptures
Read Psalm 138:2“I will bow down toward your holy temple and will praise your name for your love and your faithfulness, for you have exalted above all things your name and your word”
In the previous Scriptures, all Prophets of GOD Almighty bowed down to Him, the Almighty, in the direction of His Holy Temple or House. It's all over the Bible and outside the Bible
.Psalm 138:2 “I will bow to you in the direction of your Holy Temple.”,

Luke5:33 They said to him, "John's disciples often fast and pray, and so do the disciples of the Pharisees, but yours go on eating and drinking.

"Matthew 6:16 "When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full."

Allahh asked muslims to seek the 'people of the book' (the jews and the christians) for re-confirmation if muslims need clarifications on his 'revelations' to mohammed, why are muslims now more intelligent that allahh?

You still quoting this verse according to your liking
* do you believe in that verse of qur'an??
* do u believe in prophet mohammad (s.w.a)??
* do u believe in the book that was sent tru him??
If no why?
If yes why?

Will answer ur question when u reply that. I just can't count how many times i thrashed dis ur query..

Muslim wanna make islam look like a rocket science through conflicting tasfirs and hadiths (weak hadith, fake hadiths and authentic hadith excuses) but we will continue the good work of making them understand their text if they lack intellectual capacity to analyse and interprete them. No offense intended bro.

How realiable is bible pls? How did it reach paul, john, mathew,mark and luke?

waldigit:


Yes got you there, you said indivisible, but my own God is Omnipresent. He can divide Himself to infinitesimally units and be everywhere at the same time. Isn't my God the greatest. ?

Oh you really think that makes your god great? Does that not make him incomplete on the occasions when a large piece of him is crucified and dies on the cross? Is a piece of your god everywhere, as in your bathroom? In the soakaway? In the dumpster?

Smh! You people blaspheme constantly without even being aware of it. May the Almighty open your eyes to the truth. My God is Indivisible and Omniscient. He is Aware of all that happens, and He has control over all things. He does not beget, nor was He ever begotten. And there is nothing that we can compare with Him in likeness or similitude. So just stop trying.

Farmerforlife:


Oh you really think that makes your god great? Does that not make him incomplete on the occasions when a large piece of him is crucified and dies on the cross? Is a piece of your god everywhere, as in your bathroom? In the soakaway? In the dumpster?

Smh! You people blaspheme constantly without even being aware of it. May the Almighty open your eyes to the truth. My God is Indivisible and Omniscient. He is Aware of all that happens, and He has control over all things. He does not beget, nor was He ever begotten. And there is nothing that we can compare with Him in likeness or similitude. So just stop trying.

In your signature you said it all. You have chosen to believe what you want, irrespective of whether it is the truth or not.
It is entirely a matter of choice. But does not mean you are a bad guy.
But, I can only advice you to do your due diligence and verify what you believe and why you do.
I don't have anything against Muslim's, my grandparents mother side are Muslims. I have many Muslim friends too.

Farmerforlife:


Oh you really think that makes your god great? Does that not make him incomplete on the occasions when a large piece of him is crucified and dies on the cross? Is a piece of your god everywhere, as in your bathroom? In the soakaway? In the dumpster?

Smh! You people blaspheme constantly without even being aware of it. May the Almighty open your eyes to the truth. My God is Indivisible and Omniscient. He is Aware of all that happens, and He has control over all things. He does not beget, nor was He ever begotten. And there is nothing that we can compare with Him in likeness or similitude. So just stop trying.

nice1 brother. May Allah reward u. Ameen

truthman2012:


Muslims don't refer to their God in their native language, they call him Allah, even Israeli muslims, to whom God revealed Himself as Yahweh. Those Muhammad considered as idolaters were those who worshiped other idols besides his father's own.

If I get you right, you are saying Mutaleb was worshipping the true God (allah) as an idolater. If this is the case it means the Allah Muslims worship as God is Mutaleb idols.

There were idols in Muhammad's family, Uzza, Lat, and Manat, which Mutaleb was worshipping as his Allah, are these also what Muslims worship as Allah? If not, what is the difference between Mutaleb's Allah (his idols) and Muhammad's Allah as a Muslim. Please note that muslims also worship their Allah the exact way Mutaleb worshipped his Allah (idols).

CHRISTIANITY IS THE NUMBER ONE IDOL WORSHIPPING IN THE WORLD. YOU SHOULD ASK PAUL WHY CHRISTIANS WORSHIP ON SUNDAY. EVEN DECEMBER 25TH IS THE DAY THAT SUN god WAS BORN. ASK THOSE WHO KNOW THE HISTORY, THE REAL DATE OF BIRTH OF JESUS WAS AROUND JUNE JULY.. CHRISTIANS WERE DECEIVED TO WORSHIP THE SUN(SON)... Google the the ORIGIN OF TRINITY AND SUN WORSHIP AND CROSS. ALL THE TEACHINGS OF CHRISTIANITY WAS BORROWED FROM SUN WORSHIP/PEGANISM .

true2god

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924—Muhammad said: “I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his life from me (my words: this is a threat that can only come from a criminal).”

No, islam is a religion of peace but the founder used fighting to establish it.

Qur’an 5:51—O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

The beauty of islam: making enmity with non-muslims.

Sahih Muslim 4366—Muhammad said: “I will expel the Jews and Christians from the Arabian Peninsula and will not leave any but Muslim.” (my words: this can only come from an evil and genocidal person like mohammed)

This shows the tolerance of islam and that is the reason muslims shout Christians hate islam.

Al-Bukhari, Al-Adab al-Mufrad 1103 —Muhammad said: “Do not give the People of the Book the greeting first. Force them to the narrowest part of the road.”

Islam is a religion of peace!!!

And to cap it all, mohammed concluded that he had been made victorious by means of terrors. See the hadith below:

Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 220 Narrated Abu Huraira: allahh's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror(cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: allahh's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them). Since mohammed is the mulims perfect man, the muslims have no problem being terrorist.

There is no terrorism in islam but only Muhammad was a terrorist.

Still on who built the kabba, do you suggest we ignore science and archaelogy and accept the islamic narrative that the first man to step on surface earth happen to be in mecca? We are not talking about evolution here but the history of early men which over 90% of anthropologist and archaelogist concluded started from africa. If a portion of science supports the quran muslims will celebrate it as a proove to authenticate the quran but will ignore any scientific findings that rejects the quran. This is hypocrisy and double standard. There is no single proof, remotely or otherwise, that mecca is the origin of modern man and your claim that adam (the supposed first man) lived in mecca. It is a folklore in islamic mythology without any non-islamic authentication.

This alone is enough for muslims to throw away the quran for making false assertion
How could Adam first build Kaaba as he was not created there?

waldigit:

I am a prophet and not a Jew.

lol, please

truthman2012:


No, islam is a religion of peace but the founder used fighting to establish it.



The beauty of islam: making enmity with non-muslims.



This shows the tolerance of islam and that is the reason muslims shout Christians hate islam.



Islam is a religion of peace!!!



There is no terrorism in islam but only Muhammad was a terrorist.



This alone is enough for muslims to throw away the quran for making false assertion
How could Adam first build Kaaba as he was not created there?

THESE ALONE IS ENOUGH FOR YOU TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE A PEGAN.

DabELLs:


CHRISTIANITY IS THE NUMBER ONE IDOL WORSHIPPING IN THE WORLD. YOU SHOULD ASK PAUL WHY CHRISTIANS WORSHIP ON SUNDAY. EVEN DECEMBER 25TH IS THE DAY THAT SUN god WAS BORN. ASK THOSE WHO KNOW THE HISTORY, THE REAL DATE OF BIRTH OF JESUS WAS AROUND JUNE JULY.. CHRISTIANS WERE DECEIVED TO WORSHIP THE SUN(SON)... Google the the ORIGIN OF TRINITY AND SUN WORSHIP AND CROSS. ALL THE TEACHINGS OF CHRISTIANITY WAS BORROWED FROM SUN WORSHIP/PEGANISM .

Trash !!!!

Do Christians have sun as their symbol as muslims have moon as their's?

Does sun shine only on Sundays? How is it SUN-day?

What happens to Church services on Sundays there are no sunshine?

Do Christians look out for sun in doing anything as muslims wait for moon to start and end ramadan?