tintingz:
Bla bla bla, so Cain marriage is an irrelevant issue? I will never live in ignorance anymore. Many religious people don't even ask this question, they don't even know answers to the question, all we read are assumptions.

You've already failed an argument if you say(Cain marriage is irrelevant). Cain marriage is very important when it comes to how people came to be not only about Adam and Eve.

There are different assumptions of how he got a wife, some said cain fought Abel to marry his sister, some said Cain went to the land of Nod near Eden to marry which raise the question "are people already existing in the land".? The Quran nor the bible didn't clear this, where Cain got a wife.

You claim that evolution theories are assumptions that the long duration of years for humans to evolve is impossible but you accepted that Adam, Eve and their children procreates within some few years. The thing is there are no evidence to the former.

Science is all about questioning, observing, discoveries experiments. There are evidence of hairy early humans, there are evidence of signs and symbols on walls by early humans, there are evidence of dinosaurs, there are evidence of astroids etc. The ones you called assumptions are observations and science are still doing research and experiments, and they are making progress.

The question you haven't answer is who did Cain marry and how many children did Adam had?

I just explained to you what the Qur'an is about, I don't know why you keep telling about a story not recorded in the Qur'an. I askee you a question, is it not possible that Adam gave birth to female children? We know the result of a sexual reproduction is either male or female. This suffices to show that these offsprings of Adam, continued mating and reproducing!

You said you do not want to be ignorant, but you cannot even differentiate facts from assumptions and speculations of men! How did life came about on this earth? Is there any fact from science/evolution with regards to this? You always amuse me, also what is the purpose of man on this earth? Any scientific facts?

Islam had already explained why we were created and our purpose on earth, the origin of life, and the ultimate end. The marriage of Cain adds no value to my accepting that we were all created by Allah (SWT), and to Him is our final return. The Qur'an alone is proof of the existence of a creator, and once that is acknowledged, then His words are the absolute truth!

If you cannot explain life on earth with science, and you believe that all living creatures on earth came to being by a process which cannnot be explained, and that a unicellular organism was formed and evolved through time, to give rise to what we have now, then why is it difficult for you to believe that we all came from Adam and Eve ?!

Secondly you are waiting for science to still find the answers to a lot of unknowns, of which the exact date thst would happen is unknown, and you claim you don't want to be ignorant?! Compare to one who has acknowledged the existence of the creator, submitted to the creator, believes in the words of the creator about life on earth and looks forward to meeting the creator after death! Who is the ignorant? Do you know the probability of this earth being a result of chance?

Cain married a woman, and Adam had numerous children!

AlBaqir:
^^Really you have time for this guy. Discussing with him is a waste of time.

Says AlBaqir who intends to smuggle evolution into the Qur'an

You haven't answered my question o, how did Allah create Adam through evolution from the Qur'an?

sino:


I just explained to you what the Qur'an is about, I don't know why you keep telling about a story not recorded in the Qur'an. I askee you a question, is it not possible that Adam gave birth to female children? We know the result of a sexual reproduction is either male or female. This suffices to show that these offsprings of Adam, continued mating and reproducing!

Lol, ofcos it is possible, but the Quran didn't mention any of the female children, how many children Adam have, where and when did Cain married, and how many years does it take Adam and Even to populate the earth?

But you are quick to call evolutionary theories assumption when you can't even provide single evidence to your fairytale.

You said you do not want to be ignorant, but you cannot even differentiate facts from assumptions and speculations of men! How did life came about on this earth? Is there any fact from science/evolution with regards to this? You always amuse me, also what is the purpose of man on this earth? Any scientific facts?

ofcus there are scientific fact how humans came to be with DNA/genetic examination.

Evolution is a Fact and a Theory
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

God created earth in six days, is that even a fact? Before you argue about what's fact you need to show us some evidence.

Islam had already explained why we were created and our purpose on earth, the origin of life, and the ultimate end. The marriage of Cain adds no value to my accepting that we were all created by Allah (SWT), and to Him is our final return. The Qur'an alone is proof of the existence of a creator, and once that is acknowledged, then His words are the absolute truth!

If God knows our end then why did he create us?

We were all created by a supreme being but our purpose is different, a Buddha purpose is different from a Hindu purpose, there are thousands of beliefs out there and their purpose differ. I believe our purpose is our choice.

How will Cain won't add no value to you when you can't even answer simple question?

Anyways your ideology doesn't approve questioning.

Many scholars are even confused to the question, some don't have answers.

If you cannot explain life on earth with science, and you believe that all living creatures on earth came to being by a process which cannnot be explained, and that a unicellular organism was formed and evolved through time, to give rise to what we have now, then why is it difficult for you to believe that we all came from Adam and Eve ?!

Charles Darwin research is the open eye for scientist and they have did experiments on his research and they find many of them to be fact and scientists have been improving, progressive in their research over the years. Scientists will always give references from Darwin theory.

The Origin of Species by Charles Darwin
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin.html

I believe we all came from early humans, maybe Adam and Eve or whoever they might be.

Secondly you are waiting for science to still find the answers to a lot of unknowns, of which the exact date thst would happen is unknown, and you claim you don't want to be ignorant?! Compare to one who has acknowledged the existence of the creator, submitted to the creator, believes in the words of the creator about life on earth and looks forward to meeting the creator after death! Who is the ignorant? Do you know the probability of this earth being a result of chance?

Do you believe Zeus, Obatala, Odin, Yahweh created the world and humanity?

Let's know the ignorant person.

Cain married a woman, and Adam had numerous children!

Who was this woman and how many children did Adam have?

I want to know how the earth get populated according to your claims.

If God knows our end then why did he create us?

@tintingz, are you saying Allâh don't know our end?

I believe we all came from early humans, maybe Adam and Eve or whoever they might be.

are yoy doubting that we all came from Adam and hawwa?

@tintingz, the evidence I have is the Qur'an, it is a fact and not an assumption! Allah the creator of heavens and the earth, placed in it what he deemed important so that we may connect with Him, all other information not in it or authentically narrated by the Prophet ( SAW ) which Allah sent, are not important in acknowledging His sovereignty, and His worthiness of worship. Allah SWT says you should reflect and think; when you look at the heavens and the earth, and even when you look at your own self, do you think for a moment that the supreme creator is limited by anything which limits us like time and space for you to question His timing and how He populated the world just from two humans?! But again, you believe that we came to being from a singular cell, of which it coming about is unknown to you, and the whole living creation came from this singular cell! This process is so sketchy and confusing, that evolutionists keep churning different hypotheses and theories debunking earlier held beliefs, theories and hypotheses...

Scientists are even confused on how life came on earth, the theories and hypotheses proposed were all unsubstantiated! This does not tell you anything at all? So until Qur'an mentions the number of children Adam had, and the name of the wife Cain married, that is when you would accept it is a fact or acknowledge the truth found in it?!

The fact that we are here, and we reproduce to beget more offsprings which can either be male or female, is enough to show that Adam and Eve gave birth to female and male children! It is a no brainer...it is a fact, that is what happens when we reproduce sexually, saying the Qur'an didn't mention female children is silly, since Qur'an had already stated we are all children of Adam and Eve, and we are either male or female! The number of children cannot be counted, because according to the Qur'an, we are still the children of Adam, and until the end of the world, there would be more children of Adam.

I am sure you know we all would die some day, and your almighty science is yet to unravel this mystery, and stop the process of ageing or dieng, then we all would know who is on the right path and who isn't. Religions generally provides answers to a fundamental question, which is what is our purpose on this earth, it would be foolhardy to believe there is a supreme being, who created us, and then left us without informing us why he created us and what are our obligations to Him. And of course, the choice is yours, you can believe in whatever you want, be it science, Buddha or even nothing, but how would you know it is the right choice?!

AbdelKabir:


@tintingz, are you saying Allâh don't know our end?

Allah knows our end, in fact He knows every single thing. What I meant is why did He create us since Allah knows our end?
He already knows people going heaven and he knows does going to hell, he knows does who will pass the test and does that will fail, He knows Satan/Shaitan will lead people astray.

The thing is these questions are left for Allah, it is part of religion(faith).

are yoy doubting that we all came from Adam and hawwa?

I'm still doing my research who Adam and Eve are. So yes I'm still doubting because things are not adding up.

tintingz:
Allah knows our end, in fact He knows every single thing. What I meant is why did He create us since Allah knows our end?
He already knows people going heaven and he knows does going to hell, he knows does who will pass the test and does that will fail, He knows Satan/Shaitan will lead people astray.

The thing is these questions are left for Allah, it is part of religion(faith).

I'm still doing my research who Adam and Eve are. So yes I'm still doubting because things are not adding up.

still doubting that we all came from Adam and Eve even tho Qur'an explicitly stated many times that mankind came from a single soul and a spouse was made from that soul, then from this pair many men and women created?

@ sino

Until you show me evidences of your fairytale assumptions then will I take this discussion serious, I think I will stick to albaqir advice.

AbdelKabir:


still doubting that we all came from Adam and Eve even tho Qur'an explicitly stated many times that mankind came from a single soul and a spouse was made from that soul, then from this pair many men and women created?

I don't need to repeat myself again, kindly go and read my discussions with sino above, to know why I'm still doubting.

tintingz:
I don't need to repeat myself again, kindly go and read my discussions with sino above, to know why I'm still doubting.

I don't need to know why you are doubting, i only asked, if you still doubt even with an explicit statement in the Qur'an to that effect.

AbdelKabir:


I don't need to know why you are doubting, i only asked, if you still doubt even with an explicit statement in the Qur'an to that effect.

ok.

tintingz:
Allah knows our end, in fact He knows every single thing. What I meant is why did He create us since Allah knows our end?
He already knows people going heaven and he knows does going to hell, he knows does who will pass the test and does that will fail, He knows Satan/Shaitan will lead people astray.

The thing is these questions are left for Allah, it is part of religion(faith).

I'm still doing my research who Adam and Eve are. So yes I'm still doubting because things are not adding up.

What exactly is the purpose of creation? I would have wish we discuss this at length but this thread is already messed up.

# Out of this thread finally.

tintingz:
@ sino

Until you show me evidences of your fairytale assumptions then will I take this discussion serious, I think I will stick to albaqir advice.

All well and good, since you hold scientific explanation in very high esteem with regards to the origin of man and the supposed evidences that supports your believe in evolution, let me share something with you, and I’ll like for you to read the whole article, and reflect accordingly.

Human Origins and the Fossil Record

Indeed, the public is commonly told that there are fossils documenting the evolution of humans from ape-like precursors, but a closer look at the technical literature tells a different story. Hominid fossils generally fall into one of two groups: ape-like species and human-like species, with a large, unbridged gap between them. In 2004, the famed evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr recognized the abrupt appearance of humans:

The earliest fossils of Homo, Homo rudolfensis and Homo erectus, are separated from Australopithecus by a large, unbridged gap. How can we explain this seeming saltation? Not having any fossils that can serve as missing links, we have to fall back on the time-honored method of historical science, the construction of a historical narrative.92

In light of such evidence, a paper in the Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution called the appearance of Homo sapiens "a genetic revolution" where "no australopithecine species is obviously transitional."93 The lack of fossil evidence for this hypothesized transition is confirmed by Harvard paleoanthropologists Daniel E. Lieberman, David R. Pilbeam, and Richard W. Wrangham:

Of the various transitions that occurred during human evolution, the transition from Australopithecus to Homo was undoubtedly one of the most critical in its magnitude and consequences. As with many key evolutionary events, there is both good and bad news. First, the bad news is that many details of this transition are obscure because of the paucity of the fossil and archaeological records.94

As for the "good news," they still admit: "although we lack many details about exactly how, when, and where the transition occurred from Australopithecus to Homo, we have sufficient data from before and after the transition to make some inferences about the overall nature of key changes that did occur."95 In other words, the fossil record provides ape-like australopithecines ("before", and human-like Homo ("after", but not fossils documenting a transition between them. In the absence of intermediates, we're left with "inferences" of a transition based strictly upon the assumption of Darwinian evolution. One commentator proposed the evidence implies a "big bang theory" of the appearance of our genus Homo.96 This does not make for a compelling evolutionary account of human origins.97

Rather than showing gradual Darwinian evolution, the history of life shows a pattern of explosions where new fossil forms come into existence without clear evolutionary precursors. Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem:


[W]e are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. . ."98

This poses a major challenge to Darwinian evolution, including the view that all animals are related through common ancestry.

As suggested, you should read the whole article Here

sino:


All well and good, since you hold scientific explanation in very high esteem with regards to the origin of man and the supposed evidences that supports your believe in evolution, let me share something with you, and I’ll like for you to read the whole article, and reflect accordingly.

Human Origins and the Fossil Record

Indeed, the public is commonly told that there are fossils documenting the evolution of humans from ape-like precursors, but a closer look at the technical literature tells a different story. Hominid fossils generally fall into one of two groups: ape-like species and human-like species, with a large, unbridged gap between them. In 2004, the famed evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr recognized the abrupt appearance of humans:

The earliest fossils of Homo, Homo rudolfensis and Homo erectus, are separated from Australopithecus by a large, unbridged gap. How can we explain this seeming saltation? Not having any fossils that can serve as missing links, we have to fall back on the time-honored method of historical science, the construction of a historical narrative.92

In light of such evidence, a paper in the Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution called the appearance of Homo sapiens "a genetic revolution" where "no australopithecine species is obviously transitional."93 The lack of fossil evidence for this hypothesized transition is confirmed by Harvard paleoanthropologists Daniel E. Lieberman, David R. Pilbeam, and Richard W. Wrangham:

Of the various transitions that occurred during human evolution, the transition from Australopithecus to Homo was undoubtedly one of the most critical in its magnitude and consequences. As with many key evolutionary events, there is both good and bad news. First, the bad news is that many details of this transition are obscure because of the paucity of the fossil and archaeological records.94

As for the "good news," they still admit: "although we lack many details about exactly how, when, and where the transition occurred from Australopithecus to Homo, we have sufficient data from before and after the transition to make some inferences about the overall nature of key changes that did occur."95 In other words, the fossil record provides ape-like australopithecines ("before", and human-like Homo ("after", but not fossils documenting a transition between them. In the absence of intermediates, we're left with "inferences" of a transition based strictly upon the assumption of Darwinian evolution. One commentator proposed the evidence implies a "big bang theory" of the appearance of our genus Homo.96 This does not make for a compelling evolutionary account of human origins.97

Rather than showing gradual Darwinian evolution, the history of life shows a pattern of explosions where new fossil forms come into existence without clear evolutionary precursors. Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem:


[W]e are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. . ."98

This poses a major challenge to Darwinian evolution, including the view that all animals are related through common ancestry.

As suggested, you should read the whole article Here

Lol, This article was written by some creationist that want to prove an intelligent design created everything in few days, Some Jehova witness-like write ups.

Try again sir.

Science is all about progressive, if there is any gap now that doesn't mean it won't be filled in the future, You claim to study science, haven't you see changes over years after years in all the scientific books you have read?

tintingz:
Lol, This article was written by some creationist that want to prove an intelligent design created everything in few days, Some Jehova witness-like write ups.

Try again sir.

Science is all about progressive, if there is any gap now that doesn't mean it won't be filled in the future, You claim to study science, haven't you see changes over years after years in all the scientific books you have read?

I'm quite certain the references are not to the bible or Qur'an, but to scientists and scientific journals. The article can easily be referred to as a review, and it is thorough, it pointed out the loop holes and not only the missing gaps, but the contradictions, the assumptions and the impossible claims of evolution. The article is scientific in its approach and was quoting science! Again you should read! I'm sure you just scanned through, counter the claims with facts, not try to attack the author or his affiliations!

If you have faith in evolution, with all the unknowns, the contradictions, the inconsistencies, the trials and errors, the assumptions and theories, and you are willing to defend it come rain come sun, when all you have is just hope that someday scientists would solve some of thiese issues, why do you find it difficult to have faith in Allah and the Qur'an which doesn't change?!

sino:


I'm quite certain the references are not to the bible or Qur'an, but to scientists and scientific journals. The article can easily be referred to as a review, and it is thorough, it pointed out the loop holes and not only the missing gaps, but the contradictions, the assumptions and the impossible claims of evolution. The article is scientific in its approach and was quoting science! Again you should read! I'm sure you just scanned through, counter the claims with facts, not try to attack the author or his affiliations!

If you have faith in evolution, with all the unknowns, the contradictions, the inconsistencies, the trials and errors, the assumptions and theories, and you are willing to defend it come rain come sun, when all you have is just hope that someday scientists would solve some of thiese issues, why do you find it difficult to have faith in Allah and the Qur'an which doesn't change?!

Because they gave reference doesn't mean it can't be twisted, anybody can quote the Quran and twist it meanings. There are christian articles in the reference.

The site you gave is for religious faithed people, they are anti-evolutionary, anti-darwin article. They are trying to link Science with religion which you rejected.

About Center for Science and Culture
http://www.discovery.org/id/about/

Science is not about winning souls or making people to have faith in the study, it is about doing research, experiments which anybody can do.

I've given you a link in my previous post how evolution is fact, you don't expect me to reply that long write ups.

AbdelKabir:


@tintingz, are you saying Allâh don't know our end?



are yoy doubting that we all came from Adam and hawwa?

Your questions sometimes usually go south. Why would you ask him obvious question.

Albaqir, what is Shii stand on question asked by tintingz?.

The hadith simplified who Children of Adam married and I personally have no problems with that.

Now, since tintingz said he doesnt accept the theory, what's Shi'a theological reference to this?

From Sunni hadith, the issue of Cain marrying Abel twin sister vis a vis was the very cause of their conflicts. To me, that's straightforward and I have no objection. So i disagree with tintingz on this

Empiree:
Albaqir, what is Shii stand on question asked by tintingz?.

The hadith simplified who Children of Adam married and I personally have no problems with that.

Now, since tintingz said he doesnt accept the theory, what's Shi'a theological reference to this?

From Sunni hadith, the issue of Cain marrying Abel twin sister vis a vis was the very cause of their conflicts. To me, that's straightforward and I have no objection. So i disagree with tintingz on this

- Both the Bible and Quran never mentioned who Cain married.

- The story of twin sisters born with Cain and Abel or they married their sister is a Jewish myth, legend, it doesn't have any back up with the scriptures.

- To fill the gap, they(Jews) had to cook up some fairytale story, which one ibn kathir also copied as Quran narration, there are even no Hadiths backing it up(the reasons i don't take all these narration serious anymore). Seth was mentioned in the bible as the third son, where is Seth in the Quran?

- In the bible Cain went and dwelt in the land of Nod where he sees his wife and impregnated her.

(16) Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
(17) Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch. (Genesis 4: 16-17)

Some Christians accepted that people were living in land of Nod(this already contradict Adam being the first man) some said bible didn't mention that, and this is where confusion started with different assumptions like cain married a woman in Nod, cain ran with his sister, the people of Nod are adam's children, like WTF i thought Cain was the first born?

- And please don't tell me Cain killed his brother Abel over a woman? Was this planned by God? I thought it was about the sacrifice.

You can see why things are not adding up. And one brother said Cain marriage does not matter/irrelevant.

tintingz:
Because they gave reference doesn't mean it can't be twisted, anybody can quote the Quran and twist it meanings. There are christian articles in the reference.

The site you gave is for religious faithed people, they are anti-evolutionary, anti-darwin article. They are trying to link Science with religion which you rejected.

About Center for Science and Culture
http://www.discovery.org/id/about/

Science is not about winning souls or making people to have faith in the study, it is about doing research, experiments which anybody can do.

I've given you a link in my previous post how evolution is fact, you don't expect me to reply that long write ups.

You dismiss a whole article because it has Christian references, and it is anti evolution?! If science to you is not about faith, why are you finding it difficult to read and reflect on contrary views?! You are no different from any religious individual with absolute faith in his/her religion without caring what others have to say. You should learn to be more open-minded.

I do not reject linking science with religion Mister, I even posted a video about scientific facts in the Qur'an! I am against assumptions and unsubstantiated theories...A man said you came from apes, the evidences for this are conflicting and some unsubstantiated, you expect me to take that as a fact?!

Saying that they might have twisted this and that is you finding excuses, I brought out a quote from the whole write up, I did not expect you to refute the whole article, I expected you to have shown the twisting at least from the aspect I had presented here, and prove that evolution of man, is indeed a fact. By the way, the link you presented earlier is not opening... Why not post some of the information here how evolution is a fact?!

sino:


You dismiss a whole article because it has Christian references, and it is anti evolution?! If science to you is not about faith, why are you finding it difficult to read and reflect on contrary views?! You are no different from any religious individual with absolute faith in his/her religion without caring what others have to say. You should learn to be more open-minded.

I do not reject linking science with religion Mister, I even posted a video about scientific facts in the Qur'an! I am against assumptions and unsubstantiated theories...A man said you came from apes, the evidences for this are conflicting and some unsubstantiated, you expect me to take that as a fact?!

Saying that they might have twisted this and that is you finding excuses, I brought out a quote from the whole write up, I did not expect you to refute the whole article, I expected you to have shown the twisting at least from the aspect I had presented here, and prove that evolution of man, is indeed a fact. By the way, the link you presented earlier is not opening... Why not post some of the information here how evolution is a fact?!

Bla bla bla... I'm tired going circle with you.

The link you provided is a christian motivated/affiliated, responding to it is a waste of time as I've read many articles concerning science, did you read the link I provided about evolution? it is not opening? Dont worry i will post out the link write ups. you expect me to read an anti-evolutionary article that is twisted.

And the funniest thing is that, science is very broad and important that rreligious people are using science to prove their claims and to find fault in science itself. How funny.

They forgot that science is base on questioning and theories.

Science have provide evidence to humans questions but you on the other hand you haven't provide just one single evidence, you're just going circle like hula hoop.

And lastly, I don't have faith in science, I find science to be a gift for humans, a gift that makes humans to think and solve their questions and problems.

When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.
The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution.
- Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs.
- Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972
Read more -
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html

Cc: sino

tintingz:
Bla bla bla... I'm tired going circle with you.

The link you provided is a christian motivated/affiliated, responding to it is a waste of time as I've read many articles concerning science, did you read the link I provided about evolution? it is not opening? Dont worry i will post out the link write ups. you expect me to read an anti-evolutionary article that is twisted.

And the funniest thing is that, science is very broad and important that rreligious people are using science to prove their claims and to find fault in science itself. How funny.

They forgot that science is base on questioning and theories.

Science have provide evidence to humans questions but you on the other hand you haven't provide just one single evidence, you're just going circle like hula hoop.

And lastly, I don't have faith in science, I find science to be a gift for humans, a gift that makes humans to think and solve their questions and problems.

We are not going in circles, you may go back and read how our conversation had moved to this point, which is, evidences for evolution, especially that of man.

While I admit I didn’t read your links initially, I always provide a quote to help buttress my points, I do not just point you to a link without quoting what I deem useful to our discussion…

Be that as it may, I eventually was able to access the link (and thank you for quoting the article again), and it was an interesting read, unfortunately, the summary of the whole article was that, evolution is a fact, while the mechanism that tries to explain evolution, are basically theories which are being proposed by different individuals, and which research would keep giving us clues to what maybe right or wrong as the case may be. Furthermore, what makes evolution a fact is that there are no other viable process that can be convincingly explained or stand critical examination.

What is most amusing is that, evolution itself is not standing the critical examination thus far! This is what you believers in evolution say, evolution is a fact! There are proof of previous life, from fossils and we are able to estimate the age of earth and some of these fossils, although we do not know how these changes occurred, how the transitions came about, or what brought about life itself, we are still searching for answers…While I as a Muslim say, Allah (SWT) is the creator of everything, He sent down the evidence in form of a book called the Qur’an, The creator is the All Knower, the Sublime, I am not searching for any other answers, I know why I am here, and I know what happens after I die…I can also say the Qur'an is a fact! and the historical evidence for it is overwhelming, not to mention the impossibility of a desert dwelling Arab, to produce such a book with scientific facts in it...

While trying to propose the facts of evolution, a quote was presented, which I believe is useful here:

It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.
- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

I was expecting an incontrovertible evidence to buttress that evolution is fact, but I was very disappointed.

Except for the bold, there happens to be no issue at all, nothing suggests evolution about those facts, even when you consider the bold, what Islam says is that we are from Adam (AS), a previously existing man, thus, our life arose from a previously existing life, but when it comes to the statement that humans arose from nonhumans, that is where I demand proofs! And so far, the evidences for this are not substantiated; they are conflicting, and even confusing, then why should I or anyone believe that?! I have mentioned that I do not have issues with facts, it is the assumptions and unsubstantiated theories are what I cannot accept! All what the fossils suggest are different creatures, the relationships being proposed by these evolutionists, are basically their personal theories, thoughts and assumptions about these creatures!

You said you do not want to be ignorant, so you wouldn’t believe Allah (SWT) created us, but you easily accept and believe the theories and assumptions from men who themselves acknowledge that they do not know the answers yet (but hope someday, they would), if that is not faith, then what is it?!

sino:


We are not going in circles, you may go back and read how our conversation had moved to this point, which is, evidences for evolution, especially that of man.

While I admit I didn’t read your links initially, I always provide a quote to help buttress my points, I do not just point you to a link without quoting what I deem useful to our discussion…

Ok.

Be that as it may, I eventually was able to access the link (and thank you for quoting the article again), and it was an interesting read, unfortunately, the summary of the whole article was that, evolution is a fact, while the mechanism that tries to explain evolution, are basically theories which are being proposed by different individuals, and which research would keep giving us clues to what maybe right or wrong as the case may be. Furthermore, what makes evolution a fact is that there are no other viable process that can be convincingly explained or stand critical examination.

That's science or can you use Hadiths or scripture books to examine or explain the galaxy, universe, cosmos, biology, evolution, nature, medics, fossil etc.?

If not for science we won't know all these, we will rely on ancient myths and practice.

What is most amusing is that, evolution itself is not standing the critical examination thus far! This is what you believers in evolution say, evolution is a fact! There are proof of previous life, from fossils and we are able to estimate the age of earth and some of these fossils, although we do not know how these changes occurred, how the transitions came about, or what brought about life itself, we are still searching for answers…While I as a Muslim say, Allah (SWT) is the creator of everything, He sent down the evidence in form of a book called the Qur’an, The creator is the All Knower, the Sublime, I am not searching for any other answers, I know why I am here, and I know what happens after I die…I can also say the Qur'an is a fact! and the historical evidence for it is overwhelming, not to mention the impossibility of a desert dwelling Arab, to produce such a book with scientific facts in it...

And where are the evidence you claim?

Even Muslims scientists and Christians are using science to show evidence/proves of the scriptures events, I don't know which other evidence you have claimed apart from using science. Please show us just one evidence you have claimed apart from using science. Show me the flying horse(unicorn, Pegasus) Muhammad (SA) used to travel to heaven, where can it be found, show me how Satan enter people's mouth or laughs. The funniest thing is that Hercules and Perseus rode on a flying horse in Greek mythology.

Science knows how changes occurs, because some are not yet being solved doesn't mean its won't be solved. Can you show us how to cure Ebola from Hadiths?

While trying to propose the facts of evolution, a quote was presented, which I believe is useful here:

It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.
- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

I was expecting an incontrovertible evidence to buttress that evolution is fact, but I was very disappointed.

Except for the bold, there happens to be no issue at all, nothing suggests evolution about those facts, even when you consider the bold, what Islam says is that we are from Adam (AS), a previously existing man, thus, our life arose from a previously existing life, but when it comes to the statement that humans arose from nonhumans, that is where I demand proofs! And so far, the evidences for this are not substantiated; they are conflicting, and even confusing, then why should I or anyone believe that?! I have mentioned that I do not have issues with facts, it is the assumptions and unsubstantiated theories are what I cannot accept! All what the fossils suggest are different creatures, the relationships being proposed by these evolutionists, are basically their personal theories, thoughts and assumptions about these creatures!

Humans are said to share DNA sequence with mammals, there are discovery bones of hairy ape-like being about million years ago in museums and science labs. Google and YouTube is your friend.

You said you do not want to be ignorant, so you wouldn’t believe Allah (SWT) created us, but you easily accept and believe the theories and assumptions from men who themselves acknowledge that they do not know the answers yet (but hope someday, they would), if that is not faith, then what is it?!

I believe an intelligent design created us with the process of evolution.

Faith is something you give up on, questioning is limited, research is limited even with proves you are not to accept it as long as it doesn't align with your beliefs.

Science is a continual study, a research study that discover new thing, a study that push for answers and to solve problems, it is very different from faith, scientists don't give up.

tintingz:
- Both the Bible and Quran never mentioned who Cain married.

- The story of twin sisters born with Cain and Abel or they married their sister is a Jewish myth, legend, it doesn't have any back up with the scriptures.

- To fill the gap, they(Jews) had to cook up some fairytale story, which one ibn kathir also copied as Quran narration, there are even no Hadiths backing it up(the reasons i don't take all these narration serious anymore). Seth was mentioned in the bible as the third son, where is Seth in the Quran?

- In the bible Cain went and dwelt in the land of Nod where he sees his wife and impregnated her.

(16) Then Cain went away from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, east of Eden.
(17) Cain knew his wife, and she conceived and bore Enoch; and he built a city, and called the name of the city after the name of his son, Enoch. (Genesis 4: 16-17)

Some Christians accepted that people were living in land of Nod(this already contradict Adam being the first man) some said bible didn't mention that, and this is where confusion started with different assumptions like cain married a woman in Nod, cain ran with his sister, the people of Nod are adam's children, like WTF i thought Cain was the first born?

- And please don't tell me Cain killed his brother Abel over a woman? Was this planned by God? I thought it was about the sacrifice.

You can see why things are not adding up. And one brother said Cain marriage does not matter/irrelevant.

well, we rather leave it. As suggested earlier, the story Altogether is irrelevant to me right now. But I won't disregard the hadith of their marriage to their twin sisters. We can not use current Islamic Law of our prophet (saw) and apply it to Adam's time. In the time of Nabi Adam (as), it was not haram for the brothers to marry their twin sisters. So there was no question of mahram. It is now made haram with advent of Islam.

Jewish theory or not, you have to understand that we do share some similarities but might be slightly twisted. So now that you reject hadith in the regard, can you give us your opinion (and perhaps back it up even if it just scientic fact) how human procreate after Cain and Abel were born?

For a start, to those that want to know about evolution, this video is presented in an understandable way.

And I will be sharing other related videos. Enjoy.

What is the evidence of evolution


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIEoO5KdPvg

tintingz:

I believe an intelligent design created us with the process of evolution.

What's your definition of highlighted part?

Empiree:
well, we rather leave it. As suggested earlier, the story Altogether is irrelevant to me right now. But I won't disregard the hadith of their marriage to their twin sisters. We can not use current Islamic Law of our prophet (saw) and apply it to Adam's time. In the time of Nabi Adam (as), it was not haram for the brothers to marry their twin sisters. So there was no question of mahram. It is now made haram with advent of Islam.

Can you provide any authentic Hadiths that talk about Cain wife?

Jewish theory or not, you have to understand that we do share some similarities but might be slightly twisted. So now that you reject hadith in the regard, can you give us your opinion (and perhaps back it up even if it just scientic fact) how human procreate after Cain and Abel were born?

The assumptions that Cain married his sister is from Jewish books, some early scholars like ibn kathir copied it and used it as Quran narration.

There is Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondria Eve, this are scientific Adam and Eve that lived in Africa, they are blacks, it is different from the white middle eastern looking Adam that Abrahamic religious people paint them.

The earth got populated through migration by early humans, how Adam cchildren got wives and husband was never mentioned in Quran and Bible, all are based on assumption the same assumption si.no was using to make fun of science. It is possible early humans praticed incest(even though incest DNA is a bad combination) and I also believed in pre-mordern humans aside from Adam, something some people called pre-adamite which the bible almost fall into the trap when it says "Cain went to the land of Nod and sees his wife" it shows people must have been existing in the land.

Pre-mordern human DNA meeting mordern Human DNA.

tintingz:
Ok.

That's science or can you use Hadiths or scripture books to examine or explain the galaxy, universe, cosmos, biology, evolution, nature, medics, fossil etc.?

If not for science we won't know all these, we will rely on ancient myths and practice.

The Qur'an says we should observe, reflect and seek knowledge, it says we should explore the heavens if we can, all these clearly shows that Islam is not against science, rather it encourages Muslims to be scientific in their approach to understanding life and the environment. The advance in science has been remarkable, and due to this advancement, we are able to confirm some of the scientific facts in the Qur'an.

I am not here to attack science in general, but evolution, its principles and its evidences...

tintingz:

And where are the evidence you claim?

Even Muslims scientists and Christians are using science to show evidence/proves of the scriptures events, I don't know which other evidence you have claimed apart from using science. Please show us just one evidence you have claimed apart from using science. Show me the flying horse(unicorn) Muhammad (SA) used to travel to heaven, where can it be found, show me how Satan enter people's mouth or laughs. The funniest thing is that Hercules and Perseus rode on a flying horse in Greek mythology.

The evidence that I have that Allah (SWT) is the creator is the Qur'an! Evolutionist claim that life came about by chance, that is scientifically impossible, the theories abound, but none holds water, you cannot use evolution to explain life, yet you want to make fun of religion?!

tintingz:

Science knows how changes occurs, because some are not yet being solved doesn't mean its won't be solved. Can you show us how to cure Ebola from Hadiths?

Wrong, evolutionist, even from your link, stated clearly that the mechanisms for these process is unknown for certain, hence the theories, it is like a guess work, they see a fossil today, then they look for something that resembles human, then they claim, this is one of the ancestors of the human, then they come up with theories, then tomorrow, another discovery, shatters the previous held theories, and then the story continues...The changes are huge, there has been no concrete explanation for the how, it is just assumptions and speculations, with conflicting results after testing...

I had already informed you that the Qur'an and the hadiths are for guidance, they are not scientific journals, even though scientific facts can be found, they are meant to link you to your creator. Islam is not against seeking beneficial knowledge, I have already made that clear.

tintingz:

Humans are said to share DNA sequence with mammals, there are discovery bones of hairy ape-like being about million years ago in museums and science labs. Google and YouTube is your friend.

Yes we share some DNA sequence with other mammals, but that does not prove common ancestry, if this is true, then geneticist would have been able to successfully build a genetic tree for all animals, easily showing the trend of evolution, but this has been impossible, because the data are conflicting...Fossils found have yet to show an intermediate state of evolution, all the fossils were of complete organism, how come?! if they were evolving, then there ought to be that transition state found, this was captured appropriately in my previous link.

Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem:

[W]e are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. .

tintingz:

I believe an intelligent design created us with the process of evolution.

Great! Now what do you think is behind the intelligent design?! For "evolution" to be successful up to this point, that means the intelligent design is being guided and monitored. For modern human to be this intelligent, and reach this level of advancement, do you not see that the "what" behind the intelligent design would be far greater in intelligence than us, and if we, as sophisticated as we are, would never create anything, without attaching the user manual, do you then expect less from the "what" behind the intelligent design?!

tintingz:

Faith is something you give up on, questioning is limited, research is limited even with proves you are not to accept it as long as it doesn't align with your beliefs.

Science is a continual study, a research study that discover new thing, a study that push for answers and to solve problems, it is very different from faith, scientists don't give up.

You do not give up on faith, since certainty only comes at death, your faith would always be questioned, your ability to reflect and think properly would point you to just the fact that all this we have here can never have come to be by chance!

My faith has never hindered me from accepting facts, my religion does not make me anti-science, Islam lets me know the limits, and not to let the little knowledge I have becloud my sense of reasoning and judgment.

If you call my believe in knowing everything after death, which is certain for everyone, as faith, then I can also call your believe in science telling you the answers yet to be known someday which is unknown as faith!

While I am waiting, you also are waiting (in what we believe)...It is as simple as that

Empiree:
What's your definition of highlighted part?

A supreme being, a creator, a God.

tintingz:
Can you provide any authentic Hadiths that talk about Cain wife?. The assumptions that Cain married his sister is from Jewish books, some early scholars like ibn kathir copied it and used it as Quran narration.

May come to this later cuz i am not really concerned about it.

There is Y-chromosomal Adam and Mitochondria Eve, this are scientific Adam and Eve that lived in Africa, they are blacks, it is different from the white middle eastern looking Adam that Abrahamic religious people paint them.

I am not concerned abut this either. Their geographical location and color of their skin dont matter to me one bit.

The earth got populated through migration by early humans,

Here we are. Where are these humans from?. Are you saying they existed before Adam's creation?.

I also believed in pre-mordern humans aside from Adam, something some people called pre-adamite which the bible almost fall into the trap when it says "Cain went to the land of Nod and sees his wife" it shows people must have been existing in the land.

This is where I am going. I think you, unlike others, arrived at this conclusion based on question asked by Angels as mentioned in the Quran


Qur'an (2:30 - 33)


"Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood".



Yes, really many including muslims have asked same question if there existed before Adam (as) humans?. Well, Allah replied them that they know not what He knows. We have not much information on that. I can not boldly confirm existence of humans before Nabi Adam. Possible explanation is that Allah gave them knowledge and characteristics of human and through that they know humans would shed blood was the reason they ask when Allah said he was going to place Khalifah on earth.


So the angels meant that this type of creature usually commits the atrocities they mentioned. The angels knew of this fact, according to their understanding of human nature, for Allah stated that He would create man from clay. Or, the angels understood this fact from the word Khalifah, which also means the person who judges disputes that occur between people, forbidding them from injustice and sin, as Al-Qurtubi(a scholar who learnt from the sahaba, famous in tafsir of Quran) said.


The statement the angels uttered was not a form of disputing with Allah's, nor out of envy for the Children of Adam, as some mistakenly thought. Allah has described them as those who do not precede Him in speaking, meaning that they do not ask Allah anything without His permission. When Allah informed them that He was going to create a creation on the earth, and they had knowledge that this creation would commit mischief on it


The statement of Allah (azal wajal):


(I know that which you do not know.)


It was said that the meaning of Allah's statement,

(I know that which you do not know.) is, "I have a specific wisdom in creating them, which you do not have knowledge of.''



And again, this knowledge may go beyond text. I have no pinch of evidence to suggest pre-Adamite existence. Even the Sufis who penetrate Quran, i have not heard any of them said this so far. The least they could do was talk about Nabi Muhammad's creation before Adam in spiritual realm or gave insightful thoughts about Adam himself. So far, you are not 100% sure of existence of human pre-Adam.


One thing interests me though. You said there was a possiblity that they practised incenst those times. So could it not be possible that Cain bedded his sister?. Don't you think you are so closed to what he hadith said?

tintingz:
A supreme being, a creator, a God.

Good