sino:

The Qur'an says we should observe, reflect and seek knowledge, it says we should explore the heavens if we can, all these clearly shows that Islam is not against science, rather it encourages Muslims to be scientific in their approach to understanding life and the environment. The advance in science has been remarkable, and due to this advancement, we are able to confirm some of the scientific facts in the Qur'an.

Ok.

I am not here to attack science in general, but evolution, its principles and its evidences...

But you haven't show evidence of your fairytale claims so far.

Where did Adam and Eve settled, what color are they?

The evidence that I have that Allah (SWT) is the creator is the Qur'an! Evolutionist claim that life came about by chance, that is scientifically impossible, the theories abound, but none holds water, you cannot use evolution to explain life, yet you want to make fun of religion?!

Those are evolutionist claims, I believe we are created and evolution occur. So What'sup?!

Wrong, evolutionist, even from your link, stated clearly that the mechanisms for these process is unknown for certain, hence the theories, it is like a guess work, they see a fossil today, then they look for something that resembles human, then they claim, this is one of the ancestors of the human, then they come up with theories, then tomorrow, another discovery, shatters the previous held theories, and then the story continues...The changes are huge, there has been no concrete explanation for the how, it is just assumptions and speculations, with conflicting results after testing...

So? What those science and theory means?

I had already informed you that the Qur'an and the hadiths are for guidance, they are not scientific journals, even though scientific facts can be found, they are meant to link you to your creator. Islam is not against seeking beneficial knowledge, I have already made that clear.

Lol, the thing about you is that you are confuse and contradicting.

Today you make fun of science being an assumption study, tomorrow you claim you are not against science that it is accepted in Islam, next tomorrow you go against evolution(biology).

Just come out and state your stand, either you reject science or accept science because no scientists will reject evolution as it is part of science, even religious people are using evolution to prove their beliefs.

[s]Yes we share some DNA sequence with other mammals, but that does not prove common ancestry, if this is true, then geneticist would have been able to successfully build a genetic tree for all animals, easily showing the trend of evolution, but this has been impossible, because the data are conflicting...Fossils found have yet to show an intermediate state of evolution, all the fossils were of complete organism, how come?! if they were evolving, then there ought to be that transition state found, this was captured appropriately in my previous link.[/s]

Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem:

[W]e are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. .

Lol, as if you've the technology in your house to do all this?

I posted a video recently about evolution, it answer your question.

Great! Now what do you think is behind the intelligent design?! For "evolution" to be successful up to this point, that means the intelligent design is being guided and monitored. For modern human to be this intelligent, and reach this level of advancement, do you not see that the "what" behind the intelligent design would be far greater in intelligence than us, and if we, as sophisticated as we are, would never create anything, without attaching the user manual, do you then expect less from the "what" behind the intelligent design?!

There are many intelligent design out there with different stories of how humans came to be, I don't know which intelligent design you're talking of? Is it Zeus, Odin, Obatala, Yahweh, Allah? There are over thousands of intelligent design out there.

The intelligent design i believe gave us brain to reason and science to solve our problems. That's my ideology.

You do not give up on faith, since certainty only comes at death, your faith would always be questioned, your ability to reflect and think properly would point you to just the fact that all this we have here can never have come to be by chance!

Then why do you say there are things we can't question?

My faith has never hindered me from accepting facts, my religion does not make me anti-science, Islam lets me know the limits, and not to let the little knowledge I have becloud my sense of reasoning and judgment.

If you call my believe in knowing everything after death, which is certain for everyone, as faith, then I can also call your believe in science telling you the answers yet to be known someday which is unknown as faith!

While I am waiting, you also are waiting (in what we believe)...It is as simple as that

Ok

Empiree:
May come to this later cuz i am not really concerned about it.




I am not concerned abut this either. Their geographical location and color of their skin dont matter to me one bit.

If you say Adam and eve location and skin color don't matter to you then logical they never existed. You can't believe in something you don't know details about them, well it is faith they say.

Here we are. Where are these humans from?. Are you saying they existed before Adam's creation?.

From Africa.

Earliest human migrations and expansions of archaic and modern humans across continents began 2 million years ago with the migration out of Africa of Homo erectus. This was followed by the migrations of other pre-modern humans including H. heidelbergensis, the likely ancestor of both modern humans and Neanderthals. Finally, Homo sapiens ventured out of Africa around 100,000 years ago, spread across Asia around 60,000 years ago and arrived on new continents and islands since then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations

This is where I am going. I think you, unlike others, arrived at this conclusion based on question asked by Angels as mentioned in the Quran


Qur'an (2:30 - 33)


"Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood".



Yes, really many including muslims have asked same question if there existed before Adam (as) humans?. Well, Allah replied them that they know not what He knows. We have not much information on that. I can not boldly confirm existence of humans before Nabi Adam. Possible explanation is that Allah gave them knowledge and characteristics of human and through that they know humans would shed blood was the reason they ask when Allah said he was going to place Khalifah on earth.


So the angels meant that this type of creature usually commits the atrocities they mentioned. The angels knew of this fact, according to their understanding of human nature, for Allah stated that He would create man from clay. Or, the angels understood this fact from the word Khalifah, which also means the person who judges disputes that occur between people, forbidding them from injustice and sin, as Al-Qurtubi(a scholar who learnt from the sahaba, famous in tafsir of Quran) said.


The statement the angels uttered was not a form of disputing with Allah's, nor out of envy for the Children of Adam, as some mistakenly thought. Allah has described them as those who do not precede Him in speaking, meaning that they do not ask Allah anything without His permission. When Allah informed them that He was going to create a creation on the earth, and they had knowledge that this creation would commit mischief on it


The statement of Allah (azal wajal):


(I know that which you do not know.)


It was said that the meaning of Allah's statement,

(I know that which you do not know.) is, "I have a specific wisdom in creating them, which you do not have knowledge of.''

This is simply faith, some kind of religious people excuse.

And again, this knowledge may go beyond text. I have no pinch of evidence to suggest pre-Adamite existence. Even the Sufis who penetrate Quran, i have not heard any of them said this so far. The least they could do was talk about Nabi Muhammad's creation before Adam in spiritual realm or gave insightful thoughts about Adam himself. So far, you are not 100% sure of existence of human pre-Adam.

From my research so far it shows pre-mordern humans or pre-adamite existed.

One thing interests me though. You said there was a possiblity that they practised incenst those times. So could it not be possible that Cain bedded his sister?. Don't you think you are so closed to what he hadith said?

It is possible they practiced incest and it is not possible, reason it is not possible is because scientifically the DNA combination is abnormality, a child born out of incest will suffer severe birth defects and early death. Then how did procreation happen?

And secondly there are no Hadiths backing it up, if there is you can present it. Thank you.

A christian man once said:


"Scripture, not science, is the ultimate test of all truth. And the further evangelicalism gets from that conviction, the less evangelical and more humanistic it becomes."

tintingz:
If you say Adam and eve location and skin color don't matter to you then logical they never existed. You can't believe in something you don't know details about them, well it is faith they say.

The reason they are not matter can be proven from Quran, Hadith and Western world constitution. I know you can glean evidences from quran and hadith so i dont need to quote that. But from Western world perspective for instance, forget about their madness sometimes, their constitution go against racial profiling. So here, talking about skin color of Adam is profiling to me and I see nothing to gain from that. I dont deny Adam was black man. I believe that but the subject just doesn't interest me.

From Africa.

Earliest human migrations and expansions of archaic and modern humans across continents began 2 million years ago with the migration out of Africa of Homo erectus. This was followed by the migrations of other pre-modern humans including H. heidelbergensis, the likely ancestor of both modern humans and Neanderthals. Finally, Homo sapiens ventured out of Africa around 100,000 years ago, spread across Asia around 60,000 years ago and arrived on new continents and islands since then.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_human_migrations

Unfortunetly, the problem with this is that it is not guarded. Scientists come up with theories all the time. And i hope you are not mixing timing of humans on earth with age of earth itself. Even scientists came up with different ages of earth. It doesn't mean they are incorrect but when Quran is silent on issue, it may be assignment for us to explore. Quran did not mention existence of human being before Adam, therefore, average musli would very suspicious to accept that. What if Jinns are the one scientist probably referred to?. Remember they don't believe in existence of unseen like Jinn. Angels, maybe.

From my research so far it shows pre-mordern humans or pre-adamite existed.

Pre=Adamic theoty caused problems once upon a time. In the 18th and 19th centuries, because white and non-white people looked superficially different, a minority of Christians thought that God had created non-whites separately from Adam, and so they must have descended from pre-Adamic creatures. Hence pre-Adamism took the form of polygenism, or multiple creations of different races. Proponents of this idea often thought that non-whites were inferior beings who could be treated as slaves. Pre-Adamism thus became the scientific justification for slavery, and a defense for racism.
http://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human-beings-on-earth-before-adam

It is possible they practiced incest and it is not possible, reason it is not possible is because scientifically the DNA combination is abnormality, a child born out of incest will suffer severe birth defects and early death. Then how did procreation happen?

Up till now some people still practice this. Are all the children born from incest have this problem?. I dont think so.

And secondly there are no Hadiths backing it up, if there is you can present it.

You have indicated earlier that you know of the hadith or narration that speaks of Cain and Abel marrying their twin sisters (from other pregnancy) but you said you do not buy the idea. So there is no need to quote it unless you want me to bring it up.

Thank you.

You Welcome


Interestingly though, pre-Adamite idea came about by the most serious early challenge to biblical Adamism came from the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate who, upon his rejection of Christianity and his conversion to Theurgy, a late form of Neoplatonism, accepted the idea that many pairs of original people had been created, a belief termed Coadamism or multiple-adamism. I ca not unfortunatetly take pre-Adamism as absolute truth. The theory is not guarded.

Empiree:
A christian man once said:


"Scripture, not science, is the ultimate test of all truth. And the further evangelicalism gets from that conviction, the less evangelical and more humanistic it becomes."




The reason they are not matter can be proven from Quran, Hadith and Western world constitution. I know you can glean evidences from quran and hadith so i dont need to quote that. But from Western world perspective for instance, forget about their madness sometimes, their constitution go against racial profiling. So here, talking about skin color of Adam is profiling to me and I see nothing to gain from that. I dont deny Adam was black man. I believe that but the subject just doesn't interest me.

This is not about western or racism, the first early humans were said to be dark-skin from Africa, you can google it.

Unfortunetly, the problem with this is that it is not guarded. Scientists come up with theories all the time. And i hope you are not mixing timing of humans on earth with age of earth itself. Even scientists came up with different ages of earth. It doesn't mean they are incorrect but when Quran is silent on issue, it may be assignment for us to explore. Quran did not mention existence of human being before Adam, therefore, average musli would very suspicious to accept that. What if Jinns are the one scientist probably referred to?. Remember they don't believe in existence of unseen like Jinn. Angels, maybe.

Actually, scientists know the age of earth.

Pre=Adamic theoty caused problems once upon a time. In the 18th and 19th centuries, because white and non-white people looked superficially different, a minority of Christians thought that God had created non-whites separately from Adam, and so they must have descended from pre-Adamic creatures. Hence pre-Adamism took the form of polygenism, or multiple creations of different races. Proponents of this idea often thought that non-whites were inferior beings who could be treated as slaves. Pre-Adamism thus became the scientific justification for slavery, and a defense for racism.
http://creation.com/pre-adamic-man-were-there-human-beings-on-earth-before-adam

Actually the word pre-adamite is used by religious people and pagans.

Science used pre-mordern human which I prefer, it is part of evolution.

Anyways what you quoted was just the wicked act the British colonials used to justify keeping blacks as slaves, they believe blacks were monkeys, they also use bible scriptures that talk about keeping slaves.

Up till now some people still practice this. Are all the children born from incest have this problem?. I dont think so.

Was there any medical treatment to treat babies born out of incest in ancient days? Remember abiku was also very much in those days which science call sickle cell.



^^^ Incestuous Children with birth defect.

You have indicated earlier that you know of the hadith or narration that speaks of Cain and Abel marrying their twin sisters (from other pregnancy) but you said you do not buy the idea. So there is no need to quote it unless you want me to bring it up.

I only read narration by ibn kathir on cain wife, i didnt see any authentic hadith.

Ibn kathir said Cain killed Abel over a woman which is thier sister because she's Abel twin sister and she's prettier that his own twin sister. All of it doesn't make any sense as the Quran said the killing of his brother was about the sacrifice.

All these sister claims are just Jewish mythology.

You Welcome


Interestingly though, pre-Adamite idea came about by the most serious early challenge to biblical Adamism came from the Roman Emperor Julian the Apostate who, upon his rejection of Christianity and his conversion to Theurgy, a late form of Neoplatonism, accepted the idea that many pairs of original people had been created, a belief termed Coadamism or multiple-adamism. I ca not unfortunatetly take pre-Adamism as absolute truth. The theory is not guarded.

Yes those are religious and pagan beliefs, they believe people existed before Adam.

While science has shown that there are pre-mordern humans like Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis etc.

tintingz:
This is not about western or racism, the first early humans are said to be dark-skin from Africa, you can google it.

Actually, scientists know the age of earth.


Actually the word pre-adamite is used by religious people and pagans.

Science used pre-mordern human which I prefer, it is part of evolution.

Anyways what you quoted was just the wicked act the British colonials used to justify keeping blacks as slaves, they believe blacks were monkeys, they also use bible scriptures that talk about keeping slaves.


Was there any medical treatment to treat babies born out of incest in ancient days? Remember abiku was also very much in those days which science call sickle cell.



^^^ Incestuous Children with birth defect.


I only read narration by ibn kathir on cain wife, i didnt see any authentic hadith.

Ibn kathir said Cain killed Abel over a woman which is thier sister because she's Abel twin sister and she's prettier that his own twin sister. All of it doesn't make any sense as the Quran said the killing of his brother was about the sacrifice.

All these sister claims are just Jewish mythology.



Yes those are religious and pagan beliefs, they believe people existed before Adam.

While science has shown that there are pre-mordern humans like Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis etc.

# Excellent bro. I can't agree more.

# Quran says Allah's practice/Sunnah never changes. Why will incestous children be defectuous and have less chance to survive today but not in the beginning if truly incestous relationship occurred among the children of Adam and Awa for them to have such huge population?


# Just like scientist had proven, Quran also suggest early "human" before Adam on earth.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

What do you understand in this verse?

AlBaqir:


# Excellent bro. I can't agree more.

# Quran says Allah's practice/Sunnah never changes. Why will incestous children be defectuous and have less chance to survive today but not in the beginning if truly incestous relationship occurred among the children of Adam and Awa for them to have such huge population?


# Just like scientist had proven, Quran also suggest early "human" before Adam on earth.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

What do you understand in this verse?

concerning the verse, it seems the angels already know about humans for them to make that statement, then logical some humans or human creature-like must have existed before Adam which made the angles to object in the first place. All what the angles said is what has happened looking at Allah statement "I know what you do not know".

Interesting verse, what your opinion on the verse.

tintingz:
concerning the verse, it seems the angels already know about humans for them to make that statement, then logical some humans or human creature-like must have existed before Adam which made the angles to object in the first place. All what the angles said is what has happened looking at Allah statement "I know what you do not know".

Interesting verse, what your opinion on the verse.

Exactly that's my deduction. They've witnessed human-like before.

AlBaqir:


# Excellent bro. I can't agree more.

# Quran says Allah's practice/Sunnah never changes. Why will incestous children be defectuous and have less chance to survive today but not in the beginning if truly incestous relationship occurred among the children of Adam and Awa for them to have such huge population?


# Just like scientist had proven, Quran also suggest early "human" before Adam on earth.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

What do you understand in this verse?

AlBaqir the Shi'a evolutionist

So when Allah (SWT) said He would place on the earth a Khalif, Allah was talking about evolving Adam (AS) from the human-like creatures already known to the Angels?! So tell us from the Qur'an, how Adam (AS) was evolved?! was it that the former human form was brought to the heavens, and then left in the garden to evolve before Allah (SWT) taught Adam (AS) the names of everything?! This is really an interesting aspect of evolution in the Qur'an o!

@Bold, Don't you all know that the reason for congenital disease is due to either of the parents carrying the defect or due to environmental and nutritional conditions during pregnancy?! If none of the parent is carrying any defect, their children would be healthy like any other! Only if you AlBaqir believe that Adam and Eve were created defective by Allah (SWT), then these your assumption would work! It is known that different periods of civilization had different Shari'a! some of the congenital diseases we have today are as a result of environmental conditions, from what we eat to exposures to radiations etc.

Allah (SWT) said:

O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer. (4:1 Sahih international).

What was Allah (SWT) telling us @the bold AlBaqir?! Did Allah (SWT) informed us of creating many men and many women from many men and many women?! Or from one man and woman?!

tintingz:
Ok.

But you haven't show evidence of your fairytale claims so far.

Where did Adam and Eve settled, what color are they?

Those are evolutionist claims, I believe we are created and evolution occur. So What'sup?!

So? What those science and theory means?

Lol, the thing about you is that you are confuse and contradicting.

Today you make fun of science being an assumption study, tomorrow you claim you are not against science that it is accepted in Islam, next tomorrow you go against evolution(biology).

Just come out and state your stand, either you reject science or accept science because no scientists will reject evolution as it is part of science, even religious people are using evolution to prove their beliefs.

Lol, as if you've the technology in your house to do all this?

I posted a video recently about evolution, it answer your question.

There are many intelligent design out there with different stories of how humans came to be, I don't know which intelligent design you're talking of? Is it Zeus, Odin, Obatala, Yahweh, Allah? There are over thousands of intelligent design out there.

The intelligent design i believe gave us brain to reason and science to solve our problems. That's my ideology.


Then why do you say there are things we can't question?

Ok

You should always pay attention and understand other people's point of view.

I am not confused and I do not contradict myself, assumptions and theories can come from anyone, even non scientists, I am not obliged to take such as true or being fact or even as science! The Qur'an tells me to inquire and verify things adequately before accepting, and evolution as not answered all the question thrown at it, you yourself acknowledge that! When things are yet to be proven, I do not waste time in the back and forth of men about the process of evolution? so far, what as it yield? do we know how earth came about or why?! Do we know when we are to die or how to stop death?! Do we now know that there is no afterlife?!

Secondly, I did not say you shouldn't ask questions, I said our knowledge is limited, and science acknowledges that as well. I have the Qur'an that makes sense of it all, and you are waiting...Do you know how long you need to wait?!

sino:

You should always pay attention and understand other people's point of view.

I am not confused and I do not contradict myself, assumptions and theories can come from anyone, even non scientists, I am not obliged to take such as true or being fact or even as science! The Qur'an tells me to inquire and verify things adequately before accepting, and evolution as not answered all the question thrown at it, you yourself acknowledge that! When things are yet to be proven, I do not waste time in the back and forth of men about the process of evolution? so far, what as it yield? do we know how earth came about or why?! Do we know when we are to die or how to stop death?! Do we now know that there is no afterlife?!

Secondly, I did not say you shouldn't ask questions, I said our knowledge is limited, and science acknowledges that as well. I have the Qur'an that makes sense of it all, and you are waiting...Do you know how long you need to wait?!

Ok

Islam and Evolution: Is there a controversy?:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etP_YJ5jWsY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etP_YJ5jWsY&feature=youtu.be

tintingz:
Ok

O boy I salute you tintingz. So you can melt this guy. His last comment is too pitiful to his usual "diehard, I must oppose and many times cavelike arguments". Indeed, tí irin ba kan irin, ìkan a tè fun kan.

# Please create time to watch that video above.

# Sunnis argue that Adam landed in India, and lived and died there, making a pilgrimage to Makkah at a point. They also claim that he was 1000 inches tall, and that modern humans later evolved from his giant children. According to authentic Sunni hadiths, Adam landed on the earth just 8000 years ago. And according to Sirah Ibn Hisham, there were 48 generations between Prophet Adam and Prophet Muhammad.

From a genetic perspective, this Sunni myth is ridiculous on several fronts. First, 48 generations is too short for evolution (which happens through germline mutations). In the case of humans, about 10,000 generations of sustained reproductive isolation of two human populations are needed for evolution to have any chance. So, it is impossible that Adam was 1000 inches tall just less than 100 generations ago. If he was 1000 inches tall, we would all be genetically similar to him, and we would all be 1000 inches tall today.

Also, there are genes in the human genome that are 60 million years old. This also refute the Sunni mythologies.

# Shi'ites too have their mythologies. Read Hayatul Qulub (English translation) of al-Majlisi. You will learn so much.

AlBaqir:


O boy I salute you tintingz. So you can melt this guy. His last comment is too pitiful to his usual "diehard, I must oppose and many times cavelike arguments". Indeed, tí irin ba kan irin, ìkan a tè fun kan.

# Please create time to watch that video above.

I will do that sir.

AlBaqir:


# Excellent bro. I can't agree more.

# Quran says Allah's practice/Sunnah never changes. Why will incestous children be defectuous and have less chance to survive today but not in the beginning if truly incestous relationship occurred among the children of Adam and Awa for them to have such huge population?


# Just like scientist had proven, Quran also suggest early "human" before Adam on earth.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

What do you understand in this verse?

Oh tingtingz, I forgot to add this to the above points:

# We have hadiths saying that Eve was created from Adam's rib - meaning that both of them were genetic clones. Children from a couple like that - and the grand children - cannot escape deformities and deaths, if incest relationship indeed occurred.

tintingz:
This is not about western or racism, the first early humans are said to be dark-skin from Africa, you can google it.

As I said before, I have no problems with Nabi Adam(as) being black man. There are elements of proofs from kitab and sunnah to this effect. But I generally hate discussing racial issue. If in America you said Adam was black man, African American might feel some sense of superiority. That's why I ignore the subject all the time. This reminds of of former NYC Imam of blessed memory. He was a Sheik from Syria who passed away in 2013 after Ramadan. He said on Minbar that Adam was a black man and his wife Hawwa was white bcus she was created from his rib and rib is white cell. And from them other color evolved like Chinese yellow, brown skinned and red skinned people etc.

Anyways what you quoted was just the wicked act the British colonials used to justify keeping blacks as slaves, they believe blacks were monkeys, they also use bible scriptures that talk about keeping slaves

Yup.

Was there any medical treatment to treat babies born out of incest in ancient days? Remember abiku was also very much in those days which science call sickle cell.



^^^ Incestuous Children with birth defect.

Is there any correlation btw Abiku and Sickle cell?. I thought Abiku according to Yoruba folklore means a child born with protracted illness with element of spiritual problems who deliberately inflicts pains on his/her parents time and again?. And sickle cell on the other hand is purely medical condition inherited due to hemoglobin blood cell. The baby may die at young age. There was adopted girl in my family. She is sickle cell patient. Used to complain of pains here and there. She is now 24, married with 3 kids. Still hail and sound. We thought she would die long ago.

To your question, let's assume Allah ordered Cain and Abel to marry their sisters according Ibn Kathir (ra), the implication is that, by default, there would not have been any potential illness from their offspring. Let's assume their was illness, every Age has antidote with which they would use to counter harmful effects of illness. And I am sure they used natural herbs if there was any birth defect at all.

I only read narration by ibn kathir on cain wife, i didnt see any authentic hadith.

Ibn kathir said Cain killed Abel over a woman which is thier sister because she's Abel twin sister and she's prettier that his own twin sister. All of it doesn't make any sense as the Quran said the killing of his brother was about the sacrifice.

My comment here is going to be off so pardon me. You do have the right to reject Ibn Kathir's narrative. I can understand. The first RED FLAG. is there is no "qola rosul" throughout the narration even the one with chain of narration to Ibn Abbas (ra). I believe in Ibn Kathir's narration about Cain and Abel marriage to their sisters. This is why I reject pre-Adamic humans. Far as I am concerned, there is correlation btw cain and Abel marrying their sister and the sacrifice mentioned in the Quran. After the order came to marry their sisters from another pregnancy, is it said that one of the girls is pretty while the other is ugly. Cain wanted pretty one (who no want pretty gal ). But by Divine Order, he is to marry the ugly one. So argument ensued and their father, Adam (as) instruct them to make sacrifice to Allah and whoever sacrifice is accepted would marry pretty girl. So Cain's sacrifice was denied and this was the reason for killing his brother, Abel. This part is mentioned in the Quran while the marriage part is not. So i believe there is possibility that the narration is true. The only problem with it is that is it lacking authority of Nabi (saw).


Note, dont mind "pretty girl, ugly girl" thing. That mind be opinion of some later scholars to spice thing up



My point is, Muslims generally accepted the narration because it is Ibn Kathir speaking and has chain to Ibn Abbas, one of the brilliant sahaba. And no scholars of their time challenged him. That is their only backing. But going by these modern muslims screaming " only quran and sunnah", they should NEVER ever believe or accept the narration if we are to use their methodology but unfortunately they believe it. Question, where and how did Ibn Kathir come about this story?. I believe it is by Allah's inspiration. I heard the same story narrated by a Nigerian Sufi Sheik and he didnt even mention Ibn Kathir in his speech. My point is, these people DO NOT believe in "firasa" or that Allah could reveal certain knowledge of unseen to His servants He wills. They have accused the Sufis of claiming to knowing the "unseen". Then ask them why they believe Cain and Abel's story by Ibn Kathir without backings from Quran and Sunnah?. Why dont they challenge the story?. I believe 100% in the story bcus I know posility of Allah inspiring any of His beloved servants. They dont believe this and if a muslim claims certain knowledge that they are not familiar with they label such as mushrik or alhu bidat etc. So this type of knowledge received by Ibn Kathir(ra) is what is known among Sufis as knowledge internally received. But this type of knowledge or stories are NOT binding on anyone. A muslim may politely reject it without putting on boxing gloves.

So i dont blame you for rejecting the story bcus it has no proof beyond Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them). Tell them brothers to stop challenging what they know not bcus they are causing trouble over this. And if you do provide them evidence which i did, they rubbish it as "daif" bcus it is not coming from their quarters. Ask them to provide evidence from kitab and Sunnah for Cain and Abel marrying their sisters minus opinion of any sheik or sahaba. I will like to see evidence so that I can adjust my understanding. I hope you get my point?. Ask them if Ibn Kathir is alhu bida bcus he received this knowledge from unknown quarters?.

Thank you

While science has shown that there are pre-mordern humans like Homo erectus, Homo heidelbergensis etc.

I would not deny this 100%. I believe that Quran leaves the door open for research due to verse I cited earlier. I just can not as yet take "evidence" presented by you as fact bcus the source(s) are questionable. For now, I do not believe pre adamic humans. I stick to the narration.


WaAllahu ta'la alam

AlBaqir:
# Sunnis argue that Adam landed in India, and lived and died there, making a pilgrimage to Makkah at a point. They also claim that he was 1000 inches tall, and that modern humans later evolved from his giant children. According to authentic Sunni hadiths, Adam landed on the earth just 8000 years ago. And according to Sirah Ibn Hisham, there were 48 generations between Prophet Adam and Prophet Muhammad.

From a genetic perspective, this Sunni myth is ridiculous on several fronts. First, 48 generations is too short for evolution (which happens through germline mutations). In the case of humans, about 10,000 generations of sustained reproductive isolation of two human populations are needed for evolution to have any chance. So, it is impossible that Adam was 1000 inches tall just less than 100 generations ago. If he was 1000 inches tall, we would all be genetically similar to him, and we would all be 1000 inches tall today.

Also, there are genes in the human genome that are 60 million years old. This also refute the Sunni mythologies.

# Shi'ites too have their mythologies. Read Hayatul Qulub (English translation) of al-Majlisi. You will learn so much.

Minus your opinion or your scientific knowledge, what EXACTLY is Shia documented facts on this issue of Adam being the first human and or if they believe in pre-Adamic as well?. I want to believe that there is not much difference btw "SuShi" narrations. You however may have dumped some of the Shia mythologies lately. So can you tell what's recorded by Shia theologians about this?. Thank you

Empiree:
Minus your opinion or your scientific knowledge, what EXACTLY is Shia documented facts on this issue of Adam being the first human and or if they believe in pre-Adamic as well?. I want to believe that there is not much difference btw "SuShi" narrations. You however may have dumped some of the Shia mythologies lately. So can you tell what's recorded Shia theologians about this?. Thank you

Wallahi its almost the same mythology. However, Shi'i Mufassir opened the door of ijtihad wide open for modern interpretation with bold note that that might not be final interpretation.

# Tafsir al-Mizan of Allamah Tabatabai brought out nearly all the myths and submissions about the creation of Adam/eve, how procreation occur by incest etc and he did his best dismantle all these myths. He access various ahadith from both schools on this subject, scrutinize them, and obviously he talks about scientific researches on the subject (till the time he wrote his Tafsir) and at the end he stopped where Quran stops with his view on the verse.

# Tafsir Allamah Jawadi Amuli and that of Jafar Subhani are more recent compare to that of Tabatabai, they also follow similar approach with "updates in science", scrutiny and their deductions. However, none of them close the door in their interpretation.

May Allah provide me with plenty of time (am really engaged now). I will try and post some of their submissions but obviously none of them condemn evolution.

AlBaqir:


Wallahi its almost the same mythology. However, Shi'i Mufassir opened the door of ijtihad wide open for modern interpretation with bold note that that might not be final interpretation.

# Tafsir al-Mizan of Allamah Tabatabai brought out nearly all the myths and submissions about the creation of Adam/eve, how procreation occur by incest etc and he did his best dismantle all these myths. He access various ahadith from both schools on this subject, scrutinize them, and obviously he talks about scientific researches on the subject (till the time he wrote his Tafsir) and at the end he stopped where Quran stops with his view on the verse.

# Tafsir Allamah Jawadi Amuli and that of Jafar Subhani are more recent compare to that of Tabatabai, they also follow similar approach with "updates in science", scrutiny and their deductions. However, none of them close the door in their interpretation.

May Allah provide me with plenty of time (am really engaged now). I will try and post some of their submissions but obviously none of them condemn evolution.

Humm, interesting. I sensed there is not much difference in the theories.

Empiree:
As I said before, I have no problems with Nabi Adam(as) being black man. There are elements of proofs from kitab and sunnah to this effect. But I generally hate discussing racial issue. If in America you said Adam was black man, African American might feel some sense of superiority. That's why I ignore the subject all the time. This reminds of of former NYC Imam of blessed memory. He was a Sheik from Syria who passed away in 2013 after Ramadan. He said on Minbar that Adam was a black man and his wife Hawwa was white bcus she was created from his rib and rib is white cell. And from them other color evolved like Chinese yellow, brown skinned and red skinned people etc.

# Quran never talks about the skin color of Adam or Awa. Only fakes ahadith suggest their colors. This is one of many things left open by the Quran for man to unravel if they can. Majority of scientist with undeniable evidences via years of research concluded that Adam and Eve were black. Indeed all the answers pertaining to human history is recorded within his body unless it is not yet discovered lókù.

# What is the scientific research and evidence of that Imam to conclude that way? If he has none, then his opinion is useless. That, Eve was created from Adam's rib, is an opinion from other opinion in various Mufassir's interpretation of sura Nisa: 1. I have brought the two side of the argument before. So, the man probably based his theory on the "hadith" that says so.

AlBaqir:


# What is the scientific research and evidence of that Imam to conclude that way? If he has none, then his opinion is useless. That, Eve was created from Adam's rib, is an opinion from other opinion in various Mufassir's interpretation of sura Nisa: 1. I have brought the two side of the argument before. So, the man probably based his theory on the "hadith" that says so.

I believe we discussed this before in a different thread. Matter with rib issue is tafsir and tawil. So i won't blame the Imam for his opinion bcus Quran itself brings about very close meaning "zahjaha" to mean "brought forth from him", "created from him", "create like his nature" etc according different translations

Empiree:


Is there any correlation btw Abiku and Sickle cell?. I thought Abiku according to Yoruba folklore means a child born with protracted illness with element of spiritual problems who deliberately inflicts pains on his/her parents time and again?. And sickle cell on the other hand is purely medical condition inherited due to hemoglobin blood cell. The baby may die at young age. There was adopted girl in my family. She is sickle cell patient. Used to complain of pains here and there. She is now 24, married with 3 kids. Still hail and sound. We thought she would die long ago.

To your question, let's assume Allah ordered Cain and Abel to marry their sisters according Ibn Kathir (ra), the implication is that, by default, there would not have been any potential illness from their offspring. Let's assume their was illness, every Age has antidote with which they would use to counter harmful effects of illness. And I am sure they used natural herbs if there was any birth defect at all.

# Its only a possibility that Abiku is synonymous to sickle cell diseases, in the past. The reason I say this is that Nigeria do not have record of any lab. research that actually go back in time to explore the past problems/encounters.

# Some infant mortality then might not be as a result of as but other diseases which today we have immunization for.

# Yoruba do not believe Abiku to be a disease rather to them its a kind of evil force as you've stated above. Their mythology is so scary that according to them if for example you burn the hand of that child (as a sign of identification), after the mother got birth again, they might see the burnt mark on the new born baby. Some Yoruba Alfa even suggested it is the work of Jinn. Anyway that's their own assumption. Today, thanks to science, their is nothing like "Abiku" again.

# The tale reported by Ibn Kathir can never be supported by your assumption that "since Allah was the one who ordered them to practice incest which is an abomination, then their offspring might escape those defective difficulties".

Me as a person believe as I stated (the verse of Quran) earlier that Allah's Sunnah do not change from the moment He created the earth till judgement day. Gravity is gravity etc. Incest is incest and it is haram. Allah never allows Haram and evil at one time and then forbids it later. Please don't mistakenly bring alcohol issue for it was never allowed/ordered by Allah in the first place.

Like I ask before, why would earliest generation defy this natural law but recent generation suffer from it (i.e incest)? It should have been the order way round if we talk science perhaps via adaptation and survival of the fiteset.

Empiree:

My point is, Muslims generally accepted the narration
because it is Ibn Kathir speaking and has chain to Ibn
Abbas, one of the brilliant sahaba. And no scholars of their
time challenged him. That is their only backing. But going
by these modern muslims screaming " only quran and
sunnah" , they should NEVER ever believe or accept the
narration if we are to use their methodology but
unfortunately they believe it. Question, where and how did
Ibn Kathir come about this story?. I believe it is by Allah's
inspiration. I heard the same story narrated by a Nigerian
Sufi Sheik and he didnt even mention Ibn Kathir in his
speech. My point is, these people DO NOT believe in "firasa"
or that Allah could reveal certain knowledge of unseen to
His servants He wills. They have accused the Sufis of
claiming to knowing the "unseen". Then ask them why they
believe Cain and Abel's story by Ibn Kathir without backings
from Quran and Sunnah?. Why dont they challenge the
story?. I believe 100% in the story bcus I know posility of
Allah inspiring any of His beloved servants. They dont
believe this and if a muslim claims certain knowledge that
they are not familiar with they label such as mushrik or alhu
bidat etc. So this type of knowledge received by Ibn Kathir
(ra) is what is known among Sufis as knowledge internally
received. But this type of knowledge or stories are NOT
binding on anyone. A muslim may politely reject it without
putting on boxing gloves.
So i dont blame you for rejecting the story bcus it has no
proof beyond Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas (may Allah be
pleased with them). Tell them brothers to stop challenging
what they know not bcus they are causing trouble over this.
And if you do provide them evidence which i did, they
rubbish it as "daif" bcus it is not coming from their quarters.
Ask them to provide evidence from kitab and Sunnah for
Cain and Abel marrying their sisters minus opinion of any
sheik or sahaba. I will like to see evidence so that I can
adjust my understanding. I hope you get my point?. Ask
them if Ibn Kathir is alhu bida bcus he received this
knowledge from unknown quarters?.

# Because it is from Ibn Kathir? What kind of evidence is that? Only the Wahabism/Salafi can take that as final prove. Even these people reject Ibn Kathir's interpretation and suggestions sometimes if it doesn't go inline with their belief system e.g issue of Tawassul. We have discussed this too. Today, you have edited Ibn Kathir Tafsir (and Sahih Bukhari and Muslim (English/Arabic translations) where many things have been deliberately expunged.

# Then, you need to observe this: Ibn Kathir copied/ depends largely on the Tafsir of Tabari in his own Tafsir. So, most of these tales were originally Tabari's ideas. The only thing Ibn Kathir did was just to separate daif hadith from Sahih that his predecessor Tabari used in his Tafsir.

# Most of Muslim's ahadith and stories of the early Prophets were Jewish/Christianic stories which many Muslim convert brought into Islam. The idea of all salaf are righteous therefore we must accept their narration if the sanad have been proven true will continue to divide Muslim opinion and cause great problem.

Empiree:
I believe we discussed this before in a different thread. Matter with rib issue is tafsir and tawil. So i won't blame the Imam for his opinion bcus Quran itself brings about very close meaning "zahjaha" to mean "brought forth from him", "created from him", "create like his nature" etc according different translations

# Absolutely. The point is Quran never says that it is from the rib. These people only relied on a debatable hadith to force an interpretation. If you remember I brought my own understanding of the hadith rather than taking it literally.
Is it difficult for Allah to say it straightforward that He created Eve from Adam's rib? No. This is something Quran left open for findings and interpretations. Forcing an interpretation and closing the door on that based on debatable hadith written 100s of years by fallible people that never ever even met any sahabah not to talk of Payonbar (saws) is one of those sickness that will never allow intellectual curiosity and development among the Muslim. Quran is unique in its style.

# What is the Imam's prove that Adam was black when Ibn Hajar for example suggested him to be white and of 1080 inches tall?

AlBaqir:


Oh tingtingz, I forgot to add this to the above points:

# We have hadiths saying that Eve was created from Adam's rib - meaning that both of them were genetic clones. Children from a couple like that - and the grand children - cannot escape deformities and deaths, if incest relationship indeed occurred.

Lol thank you, I've debated a related topic with si.no before, he's yet to show me where Adam inherited his X-chromosome from since he believes the first human has Y X chromosome.

AlBaqir:

# What is the Imam's prove that Adam was black when Ibn Hajar for example suggested him to be white and of 1080 inches tall?

Actually I woundnt expect imam to busy with references at the mimbar. It was only 30 mins sermon on jumah. Would have been different if it was a class

AlBaqir:



# Because it is from Ibn Kathir? What kind of evidence is that? Only the Wahabism/Salafi can take that as final prove. Even these people reject Ibn Kathir's interpretation and suggestions sometimes if it doesn't go inline with their belief system e.g issue of Tawassul. We have discussed this too. Today, you have edited Ibn Kathir Tafsir (and Sahih Bukhari and Muslim (English/Arabic translations) where many things have been deliberately expunged.

That's what I'm saying, that we, especially them believed it AS IS because it was narated by ibn khatir (ra). I did not know this before neither heard of it until 2yrs ago here on nl by a Christian and I decided to research it.

Overall, the issue is quite irrelevant and has no basis for salvation of ours except for educational purposes.

Empiree:
As I said before, I have no problems with Nabi Adam(as) being black man. There are elements of proofs from kitab and sunnah to this effect. But I generally hate discussing racial issue. If in America you said Adam was black man, African American might feel some sense of superiority. That's why I ignore the subject all the time. This reminds of of former NYC Imam of blessed memory. He was a Sheik from Syria who passed away in 2013 after Ramadan. He said on Minbar that Adam was a black man and his wife Hawwa was white bcus she was created from his rib and rib is white cell. And from them other color evolved like Chinese yellow, brown skinned and red skinned people etc.

Oga, it is a fact from scientific discoveries (fossil) that first humans were dark-skin from Africa, it is not about racism thing.

And the rib story thing are all fairytale, middle eastern myth, Jewish folklore, so in all Adam's body na the lower rib Allah find use create Eve? That's really a degrading to the female folks and funniest thing is religious women also believe in this that they came from men ribs.

Yup.

Is there any correlation btw Abiku and Sickle cell?. I thought Abiku according to Yoruba folklore means a child born with protracted illness with element of spiritual problems who deliberately inflicts pains on his/her parents time and again?. And sickle cell on the other hand is purely medical condition inherited due to hemoglobin blood cell. The baby may die at young age. There was adopted girl in my family. She is sickle cell patient. Used to complain of pains here and there. She is now 24, married with 3 kids. Still hail and sound. We thought she would die long ago.

Abiku was a myth just like epilepsy was myth that lizard is the cause of it and some ignorant people still believe in this, but science has shown us that epilepsy is from the brain.

The rate of abiku(death of babies) was very high during our fathers and mothers era, there is nothing like blood test then, they believe it is spiritual thing since they have no treatment for it, now you hardly hear such thing as abiku, it has been said to be sickle cell because we now have modern medical treatment to treat it And not only sickle cell there are other defects, diseases that kill babies early.

The girl you talked about is still alive because of the modern medical treatments we have today which never existed during our ancestors era.

To your question, let's assume Allah ordered Cain and Abel to marry their sisters according Ibn Kathir (ra), the implication is that, by default, there would not have been any potential illness from their offspring. Let's assume their was illness, every Age has antidote with which they would use to counter harmful effects of illness. And I am sure they used natural herbs if there was any birth defect at all.

Lol, natural herbal for birth defects?, birth defects comes with disabilities and many children with disabilities don't live long which herbal wan cure disability ehn?

My comment here is going to be off so pardon me. You do have the right to reject Ibn Kathir's narrative. I can understand. The first RED FLAG. is there is no "qola rosul" throughout the narration even the one with chain of narration to Ibn Abbas (ra). I believe in Ibn Kathir's narration about Cain and Abel marriage to their sisters. This is why I reject pre-Adamic humans. Far as I am concerned, there is correlation btw cain and Abel marrying their sister and the sacrifice mentioned in the Quran. After the order came to marry their sisters from another pregnancy, is it said that one of the girls is pretty while the other is ugly. Cain wanted pretty one (who no want pretty gal ). But by Divine Order, he is to marry the ugly one. So argument ensued and their father, Adam (as) instruct them to make sacrifice to Allah and whoever sacrifice is accepted would marry pretty girl. So Cain's sacrifice was denied and this was the reason for killing his brother, Abel. This part is mentioned in the Quran while the marriage part is not. So i believe there is possibility that the narration is true. The only problem with it is that is it lacking authority of Nabi (saw).


Note, dont mind "pretty girl, ugly girl" thing. That mind be opinion of some later scholars to spice thing up



My point is, Muslims generally accepted the narration because it is Ibn Kathir speaking and has chain to Ibn Abbas, one of the brilliant sahaba. And no scholars of their time challenged him. That is their only backing. But going by these modern muslims screaming " only quran and sunnah", they should NEVER ever believe or accept the narration if we are to use their methodology but unfortunately they believe it. Question, where and how did Ibn Kathir come about this story?. I believe it is by Allah's inspiration. I heard the same story narrated by a Nigerian Sufi Sheik and he didnt even mention Ibn Kathir in his speech. My point is, these people DO NOT believe in "firasa" or that Allah could reveal certain knowledge of unseen to His servants He wills. They have accused the Sufis of claiming to knowing the "unseen". Then ask them why they believe Cain and Abel's story by Ibn Kathir without backings from Quran and Sunnah?. Why dont they challenge the story?. I believe 100% in the story bcus I know posility of Allah inspiring any of His beloved servants. They dont believe this and if a muslim claims certain knowledge that they are not familiar with they label such as mushrik or alhu bidat etc. So this type of knowledge received by Ibn Kathir(ra) is what is known among Sufis as knowledge internally received. But this type of knowledge or stories are NOT binding on anyone. A muslim may politely reject it without putting on boxing gloves.

So i dont blame you for rejecting the story bcus it has no proof beyond Ibn Kathir and Ibn Abbas (may Allah be pleased with them). Tell them brothers to stop challenging what they know not bcus they are causing trouble over this. And if you do provide them evidence which i did, they rubbish it as "daif" bcus it is not coming from their quarters. Ask them to provide evidence from kitab and Sunnah for Cain and Abel marrying their sisters minus opinion of any sheik or sahaba. I will like to see evidence so that I can adjust my understanding. I hope you get my point?. Ask them if Ibn Kathir is alhu bida bcus he received this knowledge from unknown quarters?.

Thank you

Ibn Kathir copied from Jewish books(myth), the origin of the sister story of Cain and Abel is from Jewish books there is no inspiration from Allah in it. The Judeo-christians also buy the fake story.

I would not deny this 100%. I believe that Quran leaves the door open for research due to verse I cited earlier. I just can not as yet take "evidence" presented by you as fact bcus the source(s) are questionable. For now, I do not believe pre adamic humans. I stick to the narration.


WaAllahu ta'la alam

Are you saying the Quran is not complete? Quran said Cain killed Abel because of the sacrifice, why do some scholars have to smuggle in some fairytale story to fill some gaps?

Empiree, this will help a lot about pre-Adamite era:


Human Evolution - History of Humanity Documentary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Ski3H8dXk

tintingz:
Oga, it is a fact from scientific discoveries (fossil) that first humans were dark-skin from Africa, it is not about racism thing.

I know it is not. I don't have problem with it. Just like to avoid the subject. Few years was watching documentary on Animal Planets with a white dude. It was about monkeys and Apes. I played dumb and asked him, why do they look like this? . He said "that's the beginning of man" indicating he understands Adam was black

And the rib story thing are all fairytale, middle eastern myth, Jewish folklore, so in all Adam's body na the lower rib Allah find use create Eve? That's really a degrading to the female folks and funniest thing is religious women also believe in this that they came from men ribs.

well opinions vary in this.

The rate of abiku(death of babies) was very high during our fathers and mothers era, there is nothing like blood test then, they believe it is spiritual thing since they have no treatment for it, now you hardly hear such thing as abiku, it has been said to be sickle cell because we now have modern medical treatment And not only sickle cell there are other defects, diseases that kill babies early.

The girl you talked about is still alive because of the modern medical treatments we have today which never existed during our ancestors.

Maybe maybe not. But I never believed in Abiku myth. I see it more as stage play.

Lol, natural herbal for birth defects?, birth defects comes with disabilities and many children with disabilities don't live long which herbal wan cure disability ehn?

never underestimate power of herbs

Ibn Kathie copied from Jewish books(myth), the origin of the sister story of Cain and Abel is from Jewish books there is no inspiration from Allah in it. The Judeo-christians also buy the fake story.

my intention here was to bring to attention of the brothers that love singing Quran and sunnah to answer where ibn kathir got it from since it's not documented in any of the Islamic primary sources. But they believe it just as much as i do

Are you saying the Quran is not complete? Quran said Cain killed Abel because of the sacrifice, why do some scholars have to smuggle in some fairytale story to fill some gap?

well, just like Quran speaks of Sahaba and wives of the prophet (saw) without mentioning them by name or without relating all their stories. Does that mean it is incomplete? . Your judgement is wrong here.

AlBaqir:


Oh tingtingz, I forgot to add this to the above points:

# We have hadiths saying that Eve was created from Adam's rib - meaning that both of them were genetic clones. Children from a couple like that - and the grand children - cannot escape deformities and deaths, if incest relationship indeed occurred.

Apparently, you guys do not understand what you are reading, even from science! You are yet to answer my questions, then you want to quickly obfuscate your inadequacies by bringing up irrelevancies!

#FACT! Incest is never the cause of birth defect! if you disagree, bring your evidence

#I do not understand why it is so difficult for you to accept that Allah (SWT) created Eve from Adam (AS), and I still wonder what you are trying to achieve with pushing the acceptance of the theory of evolution when it still has a lot of uncertainties...Is it to appeal to the atheist?! or what?!

Now read the following verses:

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (Q3:49 Sahih International)

By the way, that was Jesus (AS) talking there, did what take place in the above verse from the Qur'an suggest evolution in any way?! Was it not an immediate creation from clay?! How many years did it take for Jesus (AS) to create a bird from clay by the permission of Allah (SWT)?! O, it is Miracle!!! And the creation of the heavens and the earth is not?!

Secondly Allah (SWT) says further, when some Christians are confused and claim Jesus(AS) was divine,:

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (Q3:59 Sahih International)

When clay became bird in an instant from a man (by the permission of Allah (SWT) ), why then are you now looking for evolution up and down?! To prove what exactly?!

Secondly, Jesus (AS) did not have a father o! How do you use evolution to explain this?!

sino:

Apparently, you guys do not understand what you are reading, even from science! You are yet to answer my questions, then you want to quickly obfuscate your inadequacies by bringing up irrelevancies!

#FACT! Incest is never the cause of birth defect! if you disagree, bring your evidence

#I do not understand why it is so difficult for you to accept that Allah (SWT) created Eve from Adam (AS), and I still wonder what you are trying to achieve with pushing the acceptance of the theory of evolution when it still has a lot of uncertainties...Is it to appeal to the atheist?! or what?!

Now read the following verses:

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (Q3:49 Sahih International)

By the way, that was Jesus (AS) talking there, did what take place in the above verse from the Qur'an suggest evolution in any way?! Was it not an immediate creation from clay?! How many years did it take for Jesus (AS) to create a bird from clay by the permission of Allah (SWT)?! O, it is Miracle!!! And the creation of the heavens and the earth is not?!

Secondly Allah (SWT) says further, when some Christians are confused and claim Jesus(AS) was divine,:

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (Q3:59 Sahih International)

When clay became bird in an instant from a man (by the permission of Allah (SWT) ), why then are you now looking for evolution up and down?! To prove what exactly?!

Secondly, Jesus (AS) did not have a father o! How do you use evolution to explain this?!

lol, just watch how shaytaan will give them wahy(revelation) on this that you've brought.