idris4r83:
balderdash! Where did u c children of israel in my quotation? Mr man this is simple English and not 1 is equal to 3 or 3 is equal to 1. Islam values human life, that the Quran equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity. Thus, the Quran prohibits homicide in clear terms. The taking of a criminal’s life by the state in order to administer justice is required to uphold the rule of law, and the peace and security of the society. Only a proper and competent court can decide whether an individual has forfeited his right to life by disregarding the right to life and peace of other human beings. I dont know where u got your the interpretation that it only refers to the children of israel from. I talk with references bro, give me reference, i dont just talk anything without a backup.

Yes muslim you didnt NOT quote children of Israel to mislead people. You cant even quote your quran properly because the correct verse in your quran says " children if Israel". Your quote used an altered version and not even the correct verse muslim. Yet you wanna defend your error. Ive quoted the correct verse in full and exposed your error and cunning muslim

idris4r83:
koran 6:151 also says “…take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.” tell me if this verse refers to togolese.

You see muslim again you make a feeble claim. Notice how life is supposedly sacred yet theres provision to kill by way of justice amd law. So in all essence you can kill apostates and unbelievers because its against islamic jurisprudence. So all non muslims can die by virtue of this verse. See muslim we are commanded not to kill at all or stone adulterers. Islam makes provision for killing no matter how you look at it muslim. Again a big failure

Yusuf Ali:
[006:151] Say: "Come, I will rehearse what God hath (really) prohibited you from": Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which God hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law: thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom.

idris4r83:
nowhere and i repeat, nowhere in the entire bible where jesus claims to be God.

When a muslim keeps asking, where does Jesus say "I'm God or where does he say I have two natures". This is the answer to them. Not that they will understand this parable (no pun intended) ...MUSLIM CSI: A muslim man (allah worshipper) commits a heinous crime. The detective finds lots of witnesses, fingerprints, DNA on the crime scene linking him to the crime. When this muslim is arrested the murder weapon is found in his possession. The accused (muslim) appears before a judge along with his lawyer (Another muslim). The accused pleads not guilty. After the case is heard the judge gives the muslim 25 years. The lawyer (another muslim) claims his client is innocent. He ( the muslim lawyer) says to the judge, "can you show me in the docket where my client, says "I'm guilty, I committed the murder". Up to this day the lawyer claims that the court can't give him proof where his client said, "I'm guilty, I committed the crime". Moral of the story: Always follow the evidence.

idris4r83:
misleading people to muslim? That sounds ridiculous! It might interest u to know that the fastest growing religion on the face of the earth is Islam. U can check Google. We dont force people to islam. Quran 2vs256 says “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

No muslim youre sadly mistaken. Again the islamic lie was repeated so many times that the ignorant muslims believe it. You will never get a proper account of muslims leaving islam because you are commanded to kill apostates, hence muslim will never broadcast their apostasy as this will be suicide. So no muslim islam is draining by the hour.

Why then do you kill apostates and non muslims if theres no compulsion in religion. Think again muslim you keep making false claims

idris4r83:
misleading people to muslim? That sounds ridiculous! It might interest u to know that the fastest growing religion on the face of the earth is Islam. U can check Google. We dont force people to islam. Quran 2vs256 says “Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in God hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And God heareth and knoweth all things.

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Qur'an 9:29

If theres no compulsion in religion why must you fight with unbelievers until allah comes. Why must we be subdued and pay jizyah tax if theres no compulsion in religion. Muslim stop lying for allah. Your own scripture is against you.

Islam is a sick pagan cult that places no value on human life at all.

The honour of Islam lies in insulting kufr and kafirs. One who respects the kafirs dishonours the Muslims… The real purpose of levying jiziya on them is to humiliate them to such an extent that they may not be able to dress well and to live in grandeur. They should constantly remain terrified and trembling . It is intended to hold them under contempt and to uphold the honour and might of Islam.
Sufi saint Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624), letter No. 163

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it.
Sahih Muslim 26:5389 , See Also Sahih Muslim 26:5390 , Sunan Abu Dawud 41:5186


Narrated Ikrima: Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, ' If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:260



So much for islam being a religion of peace with no compulsion. Islam is a joke

idris4r83:
balderdash! Where did u c children of israel in my quotation? Mr man this is simple English and not 1 is equal to 3 or 3 is equal to 1. Islam values human life, that the Quran equates the taking of even one human life unjustly, with killing all of humanity. Thus, the Quran prohibits homicide in clear terms. The taking of a criminal’s life by the state in order to administer justice is required to uphold the rule of law, and the peace and security of the society. Only a proper and competent court can decide whether an individual has forfeited his right to life by disregarding the right to life and peace of other human beings. I dont know where u got your the interpretation that it only refers to the children of israel from. I talk with references bro, give me reference, i dont just talk anything without a backup.

Let me see where I got the interpretation that surah 5:32 refers only to the children of Israel. Oh you talk with references but all I see is incorrect references muslim. You quoted an incomplete verse muslim. Stop defending your error. You were exposed for giving a truncated verse thats not even in your quran. This is the correct verse and I also got this verse from your qurans.


Yusuf Ali:
[005:032] On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them


Dr. Munir Munshey
[005:032] For that reason, We decreed for the children of Israel, “If someone kills a human being _ unless as a penalty for murder, or unless it is to prevent the spread of corruption in the world _ it is as if he has killed the entire humanity. And if someone saves a life, it is as if he has saved the entire humanity. Certainly, (all) Our messengers had brought to them the clear (irrefutable) proofs. Despite that, most people in the world continue to commit (outrageous) excesses.

Sher Ali:
‏[ 005:032 ] On account of this, WE prescribed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killed a person - unless it be for killing a person or for creating disorder in the land - it shall be as if he killed all mankind; and whoso saved a life, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. And our Messengers came to them with clear Signs, Yet even after that, many of them commit excesses in the land.


Shakir:
[005:032] For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.


Pickthall:
[005:032] For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.


Sale:
[005:032] Wherefore we commanded the children of Israel, that he who slayeth a soul, without adding thereto the murder of another soul, or without committing wickedness in the earth, shall be as if he had slain all mankind: But he who saveth a soul alive, shall be as if he had saved the lives of all mankind. Our Apostles formerly came unto them, with evident miracles; then were many of them, after this, transgressors on the earth.


See muslim this is where I got it from that surah 5:32 only applies to the people of Israel and not muslim. So muslim next time dont use this verse to claim morals that allah ordained for Israel, youre only embarrassing yourself muslim

Eeya I can see that you are wallowing in the pool of ignorance. You sounds like hemispherectomic patient. Christianity or Christian was not mentioned in the Arabic Qur'an rather Al-khitab in Arabic meaning (the people of the book). Then who are the people of the book those who call themselves Christians

Murtadd4Christ:



How stupid can a muslim be. That means your allah is all wrong because he mentuons the word christians hundreds if times in his quran. If christianity didnt exist why does your allah mentiin the word christian so amny times in your quran dummy. Dont insult your allah. Heres just one verse as my proof..

Yusuf Ali:
[005:051] O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the CHRISTIANS for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust.

So muslim where does your allah get the idea of the word christian. Keep insulting your iwn allah muslim. Your logic is questionable

SeniorZato:
ISLAM RULES FOREVER

Another attention seeker

Bakrabas:
Eeya I can see that you are wallowing in the pool of ignorance. You sounds like hemispherectomic patient. Christianity or Christian was not mentioned in the Arabic Qur'an rather Al-khitab in Arabic meaning (the people of the book). Then who are the people of the book those who call themselves Christians

Wow muslim then youve just hit the last nail in your false quran. Ive proven that the word christian does in fact appear in all your english translations, so by your own admission theyre are all incorrectly translated. Thanks muslim for confirming your quran is indeed crap. So what do you make of the word christian in your english quran muslim. Im rolling on the floor laughing my ass of. Idris do you agree with your fellow blackstoner? Wakakakak wakakakaka

[quote author=Eldee54321 post=55427236] Another attention seeker[/quote

So true

Murtadd4Christ:


Follow the evidence. But then again if you didnt understand my posting I doubt your mind will grasp anything at all. The moral is that Jesus doesnt have to say Im God to be regarded as God dummy. You wont understand because christianity is not a one liner religion like your islamic cult. Duh

Are you following your shallow mind but the exact things you see in the Bible?
And who are you to call other religion names? Does that make you a Christian? Smh for you.

Maximus85:


Are you following your shallow mind but the exact things you see in the Bible?
And who are you to call other religion names? Does that make you a Christian? Smh for you.

Oh poor baby did I take your dummy, dummy. Your whining and crying makes no difference baby. Proof me wrong on your pagan cult. By the way islam is a cult of death and sex not a religion. If you have a case make it and quit your whining. You pagans had a big mouth all along until I proved you wrong now you wanna cry. Islam is a joke just like you.

[quote author=Murtadd4Christ post=55405652]

Again no proof at all. Anyway why dont you go and defend this topic... "I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken." (Al-Tabari 6:111)
Abeg where did you see this Al-tabari 6:111,from which book, mr ogboba onu

Murtadd4Christ:



Oh poor baby did I take your dummy, dummy. Your whining and crying makes no difference baby. Proof me wrong on your pagan cult. By the way islam is a cult of death and sex not a religion. If you have a case make it and quit your whining. You pagans had a big mouth all along until I proved you wrong now you wanna cry. Islam is a joke just like you.

Lol, When your head is empty..... You won't even know who is who.
But since insult is what you know how to do best, let me help you.
First, I'm not a Muslim.
And I will tell you that Muslims are far better in sense and reasoning than most of you stupid, foolish and gullible so called fake ars Christians. Your pastors are criminals.

[quote author=Maximus85 post=55434298]

Lol, When your head is empty..... You won't even know who is who.
But since insult is what you know how to do best, let me help you.
First, I'm not a Muslim.
And I will tell you that Muslims are far better in sense and reasoning than most of you stupid, foolish and gullible so called fake ars Christians. Your pastors are criminals. [/quote

Oh please. Just as I thought, again assumptions with absolutely nothing to back yourself up. All your posts are empty and has no value or contribution at all. In what sense are muslims better? In killing people for islam or raping slaves and underage girls?. I dont expect an answer from you as youve proven how empty your mind is. Ok heres the challenge, tell us something intelligent. If pastors are criminals how does christianity approve or condone that in any way empty head.

If you're not a muslim what are you then?

[quote author=Murtadd4Christ post=55435736][/quote]

A daft wouldn't know what intelligence is. So I can't blame you for your empty-headedness.

Like I said, Muslims are better than hypocrites like you.

Maximus85:


A daft wouldn't know what intelligence is. So I can't blame you for your empty-headedness.

Like I said, Muslims are better than hypocrites like you.

Just as expected. Again nothing of intelligence. In what sense are muslims better. You cant just make claims little man. Oh by the way still wanna know what you are if not muslim. Let me guess youre not gonna answer. Lmao

Indeed ignorantio is a disease, those who called themselves Christian that's how it was commonly used... Before you can understand the way it was used in AL Qur'an you need to have the knowledge of Tefsir

Murtadd4Christ:


Wow muslim then youve just hit the last nail in your false quran. Ive proven that the word christian does in fact appear in all your english translations, so by your own admission theyre are all incorrectly translated. Thanks muslim for confirming your quran is indeed crap. So what do you make of the word christian in your english quran muslim. Im rolling on the floor laughing my ass of. Idris do you agree with your fellow blackstoner? Wakakakak wakakakaka

Bakrabas:
Indeed ignorantio is a disease, those who called themselves Christian that's how it was commonly used... Before you can understand the way it was used in AL Qur'an you need to have the knowledge of Tefsir

Oh my goodness muslim. You speak but still say nothing. Again I ask where does your allah get the word christian in the quran? Did allah consult the tafsir muslim. Your allah says "christian" or " christians". He does not say "those who call themselves christians" Your allah makes a definitive statement by saying christians, period. Now why dont you give us the tafsir lets see if it agrees with your allahs quran.

Keep kicking your own allah's words in the you know where. Shame, so sad when the slave of allah wants to correct allahs quran

Bakrabas:
Indeed ignorantio is a disease, those who called themselves Christian that's how it was commonly used... Before you can understand the way it was used in AL Qur'an you need to have the knowledge of Tefsir

Do you agree that all the english qurans that simply state "christian" or "christians" is not a correct translation according to your understanding muslim?

Thanks for showing us that your quran was mistranslated. Iskam is a joke. Wakakak wakakaka

The people of the (Christian) for me to believe tell the Arabic word used for the term Christianity

Islam is the only religion with Allah and daily solat is compulsory for everybody according to Bible


It's very obvious that people observe Islamic prayer in the Bible... I hope you know

Murtadd4Christ:


Do you agree that all the english qurans that simply state "christian" or "christians" is not a correct translation according to your understanding muslim?

Thanks for showing us that your quran was mistranslated. Iskam is a joke. Wakakak wakakaka

Bakrabas:
The people of the (Christian) for me to believe tell the Arabic word used for the term Christianity

Islam is the only religion with Allah and daily solat is compulsory for everybody according to Bible


It's very obvious that people observe Islamic prayer in the Bible... I hope you know

You can claim all you want that islam is the only religion with allah. I have proven that islam is a blatant lie and you didnt even attempt a defence. Islam is a lie. I have proven that allah couldnt even defend and protect his quran from corruption and destruction. A simple sheep came and eat your quran hence the verses of stoning and breastfeeding us not in the quran today.

Your own prophet confessed that he fabricated things in the quran. No dear muslim you can claim all you want but its a false claim. Islam is solely reliant on muhammad who was proven to be a liar with no credibility at all. This is the same prophet that also approved lying in islam. How can you trust a person with such low character reference.

Muhammad approved and accepted that his companions may lie.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it."...Sahih Bukhari 5:59:369

And no muslim we as christians do not worship the same God as muslims. I will give my proof when someone requests that information.

Its also very funny that you muslims love to refer to our bible to try and give veracity to your religion yet you claim our bible has been tampered with. Muslims use your own scriptures. Our bible is complete.

Islam is a lie and a fallacy based on the convenient revelations of one man with dubious character. Wake up muslims.

Murtadd4Christ:


Wow another child raping muslim on the band wagon. If the supposed two bibles are not the same perhaps you mind telling us whats the difference between them? Oh and another thing while you at it why dont you tell us why you have so many different qurans eg, Yusuf Ali,
Arberry,
Al-Hilali & Khan,
Palmer,
Shakir,
Sale,
Sher Ali,
Pickthall,
Khalifa and
Rodwell to name but a few. And NO they're not the same

so dumb u appear. How can u answer a question when u obviously don't understand d question. The Quran has been translated in to many languages but non of this translated version carry more or less verses or chapters. So tell me how that translate in to different Quran. The Catholic and Protestant bible carry 66 and 73 books respectively. My point is that, show me this kind of discrepancy in the Quran. The Quran has 114 chapters irrespective of the language it is being translated to and this is a fact d bible lacks. The scholars u mentioned above are translators and commentators of the Quran hence they did not add or remove any verse from the Quran.

Murtadd4Christ:



No allah did not preserve the quran. After all your own scriptures confirm tgat it eas eaten and defecated out by a sheep. Read this authenticated hadith as reference..

It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed, and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it." (Hasan) Ibn Majah 3:9:1944. Also read where your own prophet confessed he fabricated things in the quran..."I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken." (Al-Tabari 6:111)

I wont even elaborate on why Muasud's copt of the quran was more acceptable but yet not considered when Uthman collected the quran. Chew on that so long

Don't be too excited boy pls take ur time to read this myth of Qur'anic verses eaten by a goat
نشرت بواسطة: Waqar Akbar Cheema 11:42 AM في Alleged Variants and Lost Verses , Breastfeeding , Qur'an Preservation and Compilation , Quran. goat. eat , stoning , suckling , ten , verses 11 تعليقات

Using a report from Sunan Ibn Majah the Christian missionaries allege that some verses of the Qur’an were lost as they were eaten by a goat. Let’s analyze the narration and try to find out the truth.
The narration goes as;
عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
1- Authenticity of the narration:
Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.
The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن ('an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.
In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from 'Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.
2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:
Even if the narration were authentic it no way questions the claim of Qur’an being totally preserved and here are my evidences for this;
1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;
a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك

'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
b- About this 'verse' Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?
2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times but in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through 'Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;
عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings ... (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)
This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated. For further queries about this issue and the narration from Sahih Muslim see THIS.
Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps 'Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more. Thus even if the goat actually ate them up no part of the Qur’an was lost.
Moreover 'Aisha (RA) lived through the whole period of Qur’an compilation during the time of Abu Bakr (RA) and Usman (RA) while she was unanimously considered an authority for herself so if she had any thought about some verses missing she would have brought it to attention of other Companions of the Prophet (PBUH). Infact we have evidence of Usman (RA) making special endeavor of consulting 'Aisha (RA) and her records for verifying the official compilation. See Ibn Shabba’s Tarikh Al-Madina p.997. Despite all this she never raised the issue supporting our conclusion that no part of the Qur’an was lost even if the narration is considered reliable.
Indeed Allah Knows the best!

IbnIslam:
so dumb u appear. How can u answer a question when u obviously don't understand d question. The Quran has been translated in to many languages but non of this translated version carry more or less verses or chapters. So tell me how that translate in to different Quran. The Catholic and Protestant bible carry 66 and 73 books respectively. My point is that, show me this kind of discrepancy in the Quran. The Quran has 114 chapters irrespective of the language it is being translated to and this is a fact d bible lacks. The scholars u mentioned above are translators and commentators of the Quran hence they did not add or remove any verse from the Quran.

Poor muslim. So ssd when you have selected reading and understanding. Heres absolute prove that these these scholars and commentators in fact did altwr the quran. Notice how one verse ckearly says allah prays and then its corrected by suddenky saying it means blessings and or help.. Read my reply to your fellow muslim a few pages ago...

Prove me wrong or are you in denial muslim.

Heres the proof muslim. As you can muslim your multiple versions of the quran does contradict itself. The one says allah prays then suddenly its correct as sending blessing or help. Now what muslim. Do you want more surahs!

Palmer:
[033:056] Verily, God and His angels pray for the prophet. O ye who believe! pray for him and salute him with a salutation!

Yusuf Ali:
[033:056] God and His angels send blessings on the Prophet: O ye that believe! Send ye blessings on him, and salute him with all respect.

Khalifa:
[033:056] GOD and His angels help and support the prophet. O you who believe, you shall help and support him, and regard him as he should be regarded.


Islam is a joke

IbnIslam:

Don't be too excited boy pls take ur time to read this myth of Qur'anic verses eaten by a goat
نشرت بواسطة: Waqar Akbar Cheema 11:42 AM في Alleged Variants and Lost Verses , Breastfeeding , Qur'an Preservation and Compilation , Quran. goat. eat , stoning , suckling , ten , verses 11 تعليقات

Using a report from Sunan Ibn Majah the Christian missionaries allege that some verses of the Qur’an were lost as they were eaten by a goat. Let’s analyze the narration and try to find out the truth.
The narration goes as;
عن عائشة قالت لقد نزلت آية الرجم ورضاعة الكبير عشرا ولقد كان في صحيفة تحت سريري فلما مات رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وتشاغلنا بموته دخل داجن فأكلها
Reported 'Aisha (RA): ‘the verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times was revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) expired and we were occupied by his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.’ (Sunan Ibn Majah, Hadith 1944)
1- Authenticity of the narration:
Whenever we have a narration we ought to see whether it is authentic or not? The narration infact has some problems.
The particular chain given in Sunan Ibn Majah finds one of the narrators Muhammad bin Ishaq narrating it using the word عن ('an) which is rather an ambiguous way of narration and renders the narration weak when used by a narrator known for practicing Tadlis [practice of subtly missing a link] and Muhammad Ibn Ishaq is indeed such a narrator. Thus through particular chain of narration in Sunan Ibn Majah the narration is weak and unauthentic due the above mentioned defect though it has other issues as well as mentioned in the lines to follow. This is clarified by Shaykh Muhammad Taqi Usmani in Takmala Fath Al-Mulhim 1/69 pub. Darul Ahya Al-Turath Al-Arabi, Beirut.
In Musnad Ahmad the same narration is given through the same chain but with an explicit way of narration i.e. it does not have the defect like the narration in Ibn Majah’s collection. But the narration is exposed to more criticism because many other narrators have related from 'Aisha (RA) about the suckling/breastfeeding but no one has narrated the words found in this chain even though the narrators in those cases are more reliable and consistent than Muhammad bin Ishaq. And due to thefact of these words being narrated solely by him and in defiance to other much more reliable narrators, scholars have questioned its authenticity. Shaykh Shu’aib Arnaud has classified it as Da’if in his classification of Musnad Ahmad. See Musnad Ahmad 6/269 Hadith 26359.
2- The narration no way questions Qur’an infallibility:
Even if the narration were authentic it no way questions the claim of Qur’an being totally preserved and here are my evidences for this;
1- One of the two allegedly lost verses as per this narration was about stoning i.e. punishment of married adulterers. But other narrations prove that a commandment was revealed about stoning but the Holy Prophet (PBUH) did not allow it to be written as a part of the Qur’an implying that it was not meant to be Qur’an integral part. Following narrations testify to this;
a-It is reported in a narration from Kathir bin Salt that: Zaid (b. Thabit) said: 'I heard the Messenger of Allah say, 'When a married man or woman commit adultery stone them both (to death)', (hearing this) Amr said,
فقال عمرو : لما نزلت أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم فقلت : أكتبها ؟ فكأنه كره ذلك

'When this was revealed I came to Prophet and asked if I could write it, he (the Prophet) disliked it.' (Mustadrik Al-Hakim, Hadith 8184. Hakim called it Sahih)
b- About this 'verse' Kathir bin Salt says that he, Zaid bin Thabit and Marwan bin Hakam were discussing as to why it is not written in the Quranic manuscript and Umar bin Khattab was present with them and listening to their discussion he said he knew it better then them and told them that he came to Messenger of Allah and said:
يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال فأتيته فذكرته قال فذكر آية الرجم قال فقال يا رسول الله أكتبني آية الرجم قال لا استطيع ذاك
"'O Messenger of Allah, let the verse about stoning be written for me.' He (the Prophet) said, 'I can't do this.'" (Sunan Al-Kubra Baihiqi 8/211 & Sunan Al-Kubra Nasai Hadith 7148. Albani (in Sahiha 6/412) said Baihiqi pointed to its authenticity)
Had it meant to be a part of the Qur’an why would Holy Prophet (PBUH) dislike its being written and who could stop him from doing it?
2- The second allegedly lost verse was about suckling of an adult ten times but in this case too we have other narrations which categorically say that the verse was abrogated. And interestingly those narrations come through 'Aisha (RA) only. In Sahih Muslim we read;
عَنْ عَائِشَةَ أَنَّهَا قَالَتْ كَانَ فِيمَا أُنْزِلَ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ عَشْرُ رَضَعَاتٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ يُحَرِّمْنَ ثُمَّ نُسِخْنَ بِخَمْسٍ مَعْلُومَاتٍ فَتُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَهُنَّ فِيمَا يُقْرَأُ مِنْ الْقُرْآنِ
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings ... (Sahih Muslim, Hadith 2634)
This narration explicitly says that verse about ten sucklings was abrogated. For further queries about this issue and the narration from Sahih Muslim see THIS.
Having known that neither of them was meant to be part of the Qur’an; even if we accept the narration in question we will have to say that perhaps 'Aisha (RA) had kept them with her as a historical record and nothing more. Thus even if the goat actually ate them up no part of the Qur’an was lost.
Moreover 'Aisha (RA) lived through the whole period of Qur’an compilation during the time of Abu Bakr (RA) and Usman (RA) while she was unanimously considered an authority for herself so if she had any thought about some verses missing she would have brought it to attention of other Companions of the Prophet (PBUH). Infact we have evidence of Usman (RA) making special endeavor of consulting 'Aisha (RA) and her records for verifying the official compilation. See Ibn Shabba’s Tarikh Al-Madina p.997. Despite all this she never raised the issue supporting our conclusion that no part of the Qur’an was lost even if the narration is considered reliable.
Indeed Allah Knows the best!

Wow you cut and paste a whole lot of babble and hope that supposedly clear up the cough that your quran was indeed eaten and crapped out by a sheep. I dont think you even understand what youve posted. Anyway its not so uncommon for muslims to deny and even hide the embarrassment of islam. First of all, Sunaan ibn majah is regarded as one of your authenticated kitaabs and suddenly its re - authenticated because it doesnt suit islam. Then why are you still using Ibn majah if hes so questionable. Secondly you wanna suddenly attack the character of Ibn Ishaaq with such a feeble claim.

Ibn Ishaaq in islamic circles is still regarded as credible as he brought you the Sirat Rasull allah which is widespread in islam. He even brought you al- maghazi. Its because of Ibn Ishaaq that you muslims have a comprehensive view of muhammad's life. Now suddenly you wanna throw ibn ishaaq under the bus but you still widely use his works. Only a muslim can deny their own cukt so easily. Secondly, if. You wanna challenge the chain iof arrators on Sunaan ibn majah 3:9:1944 but Aisha can be regarded as a high authority as muhammad's wife. Secondly you claim Aisha was present during the compilatuon and wouldve mention the verses of stoning and suckling. Why didnt she? We can see from the under mentioned that Umar did make mention of it but was not considered due to the failure of having witnesses. Why would they consider Aisha's, a female witness. So you have failed to prove anything with your cut and paste answer, infact youve opened up a whole can of worms how cunning and sly muslims are..


The Perversion of Qur’an and
the Loss of Many Parts of It
On page 131 of his book, "El-Sheaa and Correction", the contemporary Muslim scholar, Dr. Mosa-El-Mosawy, makes this frank confession,
"Those who adopt the notion of the perversion of the Qur’an are present among all different Islamic groups, but the majority of them come from the El-Sheaa scholars."
Perversion of Qur’an is an unimaginable notion to the lay Muslim because the Scholars of Islam are hiding this truth from being published or becoming known.
Of course, we weren’t just satisfied with what Dr. El-Mosawy has already mentioned, but we went back to the most popular ancient scholars and to Muhammad’s relatives and companions to investigate this notion concerning the perversion and loss of several parts of the Qur’an because those are the trustworthy people regarding the history and development of Islam.
Upon examining the testimonies of these great companions, the answer was positive. They clearly stated that perversion and loss of large fragments of the Qur’an did occur. Let us scrutinize their testimony in order to present to deluded Muslims the truth as it is proclaimed by their trusted spiritual leaders and scholars. The deceptive veil must be removed so people can see the true face of the Qur’an.
’Ibn Umar al–Khattab explicitly admits,
"Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost, thus let him say, ‘I have acquired of it what is available"’ (Suyuti: Itqan, part 3, page 72).
A’isha (also page 72) adds to the story of ibn Umar and says,
"During the time of the prophet, the chapter of the Parties used to be two hundred verses when read. When Uthman edited the copies of the Qur’an, only the current (verses) were recorded" (73 verses).
The same statement is made by Ubay ibn Ka’b, one of the great companions. On page 72, part 3, the Suyuti says,
"This famous companion asked one of the Muslims, ‘How many verses in the chapter of the Parties?’ He said, ‘Seventy-two or seventy-three verses.’ He (Ubay) told him, ‘It used to be almost equal to the chapter of the Cow (about 286 verses) and included the verse of the stoning.’ The man asked, ‘What is the verse of the stoning?’ He said, ‘If an old man or woman committed adultery, stone them to death."’
This same story and same dialogue which took place between the companion and one of the Muslims is recorded by Ibn Hazm (volume 8, part 11, pages 234 and 235). Then Ibn Hazm said,
"’Ali Ibn Abi Talib said this has a reliable chain of authority (The Sweetest [Al Mohalla] vol. 8.)."
The Zamakh-shari also cited it in his book, "al-Kash-Shaf’ (part 3, page 518).
These are unquestionable statements made by the pillars of the Islamic religion who transmitted Muhammad’s sayings and biography, "The Tradition", and who interpreted the Qur’an— among them Ibn ’Umar, A’isha, Ubay Ibn Ka’b and ’Ali Ibn Abi Talib. Ibn ’Umar states that a large part of the Qur’an was missed. A’isha and Ubay Ibn Ka’b assert that dozens of verses from the "Chapter of the Parties" have been lost. ’Ali confirms that, too. In regard to this particular verse, the following incident is recorded in "The Itqan" by Suyuti (part 1, page 168),
"During the collection of the Qur’an, people used to come to Zayd Ibn Thabit (with the verses they memorized). He shunned recording any verse unless two witnesses attested to it. The last verse of chapter of Repentance was found only with Khuzayma Ibn Thabit. Zayd said, ‘Record it because the apostle of God made the testimony of Khuzayma equal to the testimony of two men.’ ’Umar came with the verse of the stoning but it was not recorded because he was the only witness to it."
One can only wonder and ask, "Does ’Umar need another witness to agree with him? Would he lie to God and the Qur’an? Because of that, ’Umar said after that, "If it were not that people would say, "Umar has added to the book of God’, I would have recorded the verse of the stoning" (part 3, page 75 of the Itqan). Refer also to skiek Kishk’s book (part 3, page 64). Another confession by A’isha:
"Among the (verses) which were sent down, (the verse) of the ten breast feedings was abrogated by (a verse which calls for five breast feedings. The apostle of God died and this verse was still read as part of the Qur’an. This was related by Abu Bakr and ’Umar" (refer to Suyuti’s qan, part 3, pages 62 and 63).
Events Which Led To The Loss Of Some Verses
A Domesticated Animal Eats Qur’anic Verses
In his book (volume 8, part II, pages 235 and 236), Ibn Hazm says plainly,
"The verses of stoning and breast feeding were in the possession of A’isha in a (Qur’anic) copy. When Muhammad died and people became busy in the burial preparations, a domesticated animal entered in and ate it."
A’isha herself declared that and she knew exactly what she possessed. Also, Mustafa Husayn, who edited and reorganized the book, "al-Kash-shaf" by the Zamakh-Shari, asserts this fact in page 518 of part 3. He says that the ones who related this incident and said that a domesticated animal ate the verses were reliable persons among them ’Abdulla Ibn Abi Bakr and A’isha herself. This same story has been mentioned also by Dar-al-Qutni, al-Bazzar and al Tabarani, on the authority of Muhammad Ibn Ishaq who heard it from ’Abdulla who himself heard it from A’isha.
Professor Mustafa indicates that this does not negate that the abrogation of these verses may have occurred before the domesticated animal ate them. Why then did ’Umar want to record the verse of the stoning in the Qur’an if its recitation was abrogated? And why did people used to read the verses of the breast-feeding? And, if Muhammad died while these verses were still recited who abrogated them? Did the domesticated animal abrogate them? It is evident that this really did occur according to the witness of the companions, Muslim scholars, and A’isha herself.
Other Matters Which Were Lost, Not Recorded And Altered
In part 3, page 73, the Suyuti said,
"Hamida, the daughter of Abi Yunis, said, ‘When my father was eighty years old, he read in the copy of A’isha, "God and His angels bless (literally pray for) the prophet Oh ye who believe, bless him and those who pray in the first rows." Then she said, "That was before ’Uthman changed the Qur’anic copies.""’
On page 74, we read,
"Umar said to ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf, ‘Didn’t you find among the verses that we received one saying, "Strive as you strove at the first?" We do not locate it (any more).’ ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf told him, ‘This verse has been removed among those others which were removed from the Qur’an."’
It is well known that ’Abdul-Rahman Ibn ’Oaf was one of the great companions and was among those who were nominated for the caliphate.
Also, on the same page (74, of part 3) of "The Itqan", we read,
"Maslama al-Ansar said to the companions of Muhammad, ‘Tell me about two verses which have not been recorded in the Qur’an which ’Uthman collected.’ They failed to do so. Maslama said, ‘Oh, ye who believed and immigrated and fought for the cause of God by (sacrificing) your properties and yourselves, you received the glad tidings, for you are prosperous. Also, those who sheltered them, aided them and defended them, against whom God (revealed) His wrath, no soul knows what is awaiting them as a reward for what they did."’
Throughout pages 73 and 74 of part 3, the Suyuti records for us all the remarks made by Muhammad’s companions in regard to the unpreserved Qur’anic verses which the readers failed to find in the Qur’an which ’Uthman collected and which is currently in vogue. It is worthwhile to notice that we only quote the testimonies of the most reliable authorities whose witness is highly regarded and cited by all the scholars and students of the Qur’an such as ’Ali, ’Uthman, Abu Bakr, A’isha (Muhammad’s wife), Ibn Mas’ud, and Ibn ’Abbas. In the context of expounding the Qur’an, these scholars are always quoted to shed light on the events which took place during the time of Muhammad. No one could interpret the tenets of Islam better than these scholars could.

Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran...




Memorization

'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2)

'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3)

The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.



Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:

'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4)

'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)

'Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka'. (6)

The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by the Companions: 'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then'. (7)

Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.

'At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. 'Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place..."' (

'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'. (9)



Second Generation Memorizers:

"...Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)



Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.



Further Points of Consideration:

* Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers. * Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran) * It's a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.



Conclusion:

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from young children sometime as young as six or less and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet

Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records..." relates John Burton (12)

"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)



Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him..." (14)

Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...' (15)

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. (16)

'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. (17)

Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:... 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' (18)

During the Prophet's last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast t it you will never fall into error - a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet...' (19)

'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. (20)

'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. (21)

'The best known among these (Prophet's Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit'. (22)

'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'. (23)



Conclusion:

The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet's possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur'an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet's death. The task of collecting the Qur'an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet.



Written Quran in First Generation:

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book)...so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)'...So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart)..." (24)

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

'...Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory...' (25)

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26) 2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question. (27)

'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'. (28)

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it. This is exactly where the neat check and balance system of preservation of the Quran comes into play, but which is lacking for any other scripture besides the Quran.


Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt..." (29)



Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30) 2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31) 3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)

When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, 'By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)

Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)

'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'. (37)

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'. (38)

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)

'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'. (40)

Conclusion:

'Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'. (41)

It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.

Sir Williams Muir states, " There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used". (42)

Sir William Muir continues, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (43)

This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:

We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)' (Quran - Chapter 15, Verse 9). *('We' is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)

Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.

IbnIslam:
so dumb u appear. How can u answer a question when u obviously don't understand d question. The Quran has been translated in to many languages but non of this translated version carry more or less verses or chapters. So tell me how that translate in to different Quran. The Catholic and Protestant bible carry 66 and 73 books respectively. My point is that, show me this kind of discrepancy in the Quran. The Quran has 114 chapters irrespective of the language it is being translated to and this is a fact d bible lacks. The scholars u mentioned above are translators and commentators of the Quran hence they did not add or remove any verse from the Quran.

Muslim so often claim a false victory without having all the facts or simply cut and paste things they have not researched or even grasp. Any way the muslims think they have a case by accusing the bible as altered because theres a difference between the amount of books between catholics and protestants. Let explain to the muslims why these Seven books also known as the Apocrypha is not valid and therefore not found in the protestant bible. These books are so absurd that even muslims wouldnt want them in their quran....



The apocrypha (απόκρυφα means "hidden" is a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ that is rejected by Protestants and officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church in 1546 as being inspired. These books are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch.

But if the Apocrypha is a Scripture , then it should not have any errors. But since it does have errors, as will be demonstrated below, this puts into question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church has properly used its self-proclaimed position as the teaching authority of the Christian Church. If it can error in such an important manner as what is Scripture, can it be trusted to properly teach the Christian Church?

Problems in the Apocrypha

When we look into the apocrypha itself, we find numerous problems. For example, we see it advocating magic where the smoke of a fish heart on a fire drives away devils.

Condones the use of magic

Tobit 6:5-7 , "Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them."
Is it true that the smoke from a fish's heart, when burned, drives away evil spirits? Of course not. Such a superstitious teaching has no place in the word of God that
Teaches that forgiveness of sins is by human effort.

Salvation by works :

Tobit 4:11 , "For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness."
Tobit 12:9 , "For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting."
We know from Scripture that alms (money or food given to the poor or needy as charity) does not purge our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses us - not money or food given to poor people. "But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin." (1 John 1:7 ).
Money as an offering for the sins of the dead :
2 Maccabbees 12:43, "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection."
Can anyone truly accept that money isn't offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture.

Historical Errors

Wrong historical facts :

Judith 1:5 , "Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him."
Baruch 6:2 , "And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace."
The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians. 1
Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. "And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

Conclusion

Obviously the apocrypha has serious problems. From magic, to salvation by works, to money as an offering for the sins of the dead, and blatant incorrect historical facts--it is full of false and unbiblical teachings. It isn't inspired of God. Likewise, neither is the Roman Catholic Church, which has stated the Apocrypha is inspired. This shows the Roman Catholic Church is not the means by which God is communicating his truth to his people, that the Magisterium has erred greatly, and that it is infested with man's false tradition rather than God's absolute truth

Binb:
Proof of The Preservation of the Quran

Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran...




Memorization

'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2)

'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3)

The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.



Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:

'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4)

'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)

'Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka'. (6)

The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by the Companions: 'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then'. (7)

Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.

'At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. 'Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place..."' (

'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'. (9)



Second Generation Memorizers:

"...Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)



Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.



Further Points of Consideration:

* Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers. * Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran) * It's a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.



Conclusion:

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from young children sometime as young as six or less and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet

Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records..." relates John Burton (12)

"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)



Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him..." (14)

Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers...' (15)

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. (16)

'The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. (17)

Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:... 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' (18)

Muslim by spamming the forum it does jot mean that youve addressed the points Ive made against islam. You havent even address the narration, Ibn Ishaq, Aisha, the sheep eating your quran. All you do us cut and paste claims that Im actually questioning. Will you answer