shadeyinka:


Pls forgive the remaining 1% oh.

That would be me.

Blackfire:




That would be me.

A man need to forgive himself to move forward

shadeyinka:


Let me help you a little to comprehend this.

Lets assume you through a time machine was transported into the year 2030 and you found Nigeria in a bloody civil war which killed 75% of the population through their use of both chemical and biological weapons. Let's assume the war was precipitated because Nnamdi Kanu was executed by Buhari unjustly.

Back to 2017, you now know the future...and Despite all your warnings...

Do you think it would be right for people to blame you if Buhari actually executed Nnamdi Kanu. Are you responsible for the war? Did you orchestrate the war?

SO, YOU SEE THAT FOREKNOWLEDGE IS NOT THE SAME AS PREDESTINATION.

If Buhari had chosen not to Execute KANU, the catastrophe could have been averted. What you pre-saw
when you time traveled to 2030 was a product of Buharis choices NOT yours.

Again... What's the use of fore knowledge if u cannot use it. Since u know that God has fore knowledge, please tell me what he does with it.

I used the teacher example and i see u pretended u didn't even see it. However u brought up an example were u gave me the ability to time travel to 13 years from now... Before i respond to that also attribute such abilities as... All powerful, all loving, and all ominieverything assigned to God. I will tell u how i will handle the kanu and buhari scenario.
In my teacher​-student example i even describe how the issue can be resolved. But u jumped and and brought up urs in a way that makes it seems like the only power God has is just to sneak into the future.

Is he not the creator?
Didn't he know before creating?
Didn't he have good intentions?
Does the suffering of the weak and helpless not affect him?
The ability to see the future must have a function, what is the function of this ability?

What you have just described is your ABSOLUTE freedom of CHOICE. If God gave you a freewill, then, with your will, you should be free to Reject Him. And God should honour your will. So that separated you will be from Him eternally. Your choice.

God allowed evil so that His own by their Choices will reject evil and choose Good and Love. Volition MUST be tested.

If a tree produces good sweet fruit in a bad environment, when transplanted to a good environment, what kind of fruit will it produce?

Conversely, if a tree produces thorns and poisons in a bad environment, what happens when it is transplanted to a good environment?

So also, when a human being choose a life of Love for God and Man in an evil world and ends up in paradise will he become evil?
And when a man lives a life Devoid of Love for God and Man with Evil is taken to paradise will he become good?

What's the function of fore knowledge in the midst of choice and freewill.
What does he intend to achieve with free will. Free will has not made the world a better place.
Is free will just for accepting and rejecting a creator we have never seen. Is the choice of rejection bad if i am born in a Moslem home and despite ur preaching, i look at my background and decide,based on what i have been told, that islam is right, Jesus is not the son of God because trinity does not make sense?
The free will u use in rejecting Mohammed is the freewill a Moslem will use in rejecting Jesus is the son of God.

What's my point..U speak of free will as if it is not determinant on other factors. There is home training, biological and psychological factors, all affecting the choice an individualvidual will make in accepting Ur idea of God.
Is God going to consider other things? Or will he just focus on free will which, obviously has not turned out good for the world?

^^^^
I have rejected any God idea with my free will because the idea does not make sense in my world view. Is God just going to judge me based on only free will? There so many determinant of this choice, and many are much stronger than the choice itself.
U guys scream free will like it's anything... Without my type of up bringing, biological and psychological make up, my choice will not have a foundation. These foundations are what matters and not really the choice itself.

shadeyinka:


Actually, this your statement


Show that you didn't understand any of my explanations.

A plan isn't foreknowledge: a plan is more of a predestination and
Positioning of toys according to plan is also a kind of predestination.

Foreknowledge is the ability to observe the future (events yet to occur)
Predestination is the ability to fix the outcome of events in future.

Let me explain with reality TV again:
1. The objective of reality TV series is to select winners having a certain desired trait
2. For this to be, there are challenges introduced by the producers for the purpose of eliminating the undesired participants.
3. No one writes the scripts for each participant (freewill)
4. If perchance the producers could watch the final recording even before the participants are assembled (through a new scientific invention of a time machine), then they have a foreknowledge of winners and losers.
5. The fact that the producers have a foreknowledge does not imply that they gave a script (predestination) to the participants AND they do not control/decide who wins and who looses.



Omniscience simply means knowledge NOT subject to timeline (past, present and future). Foreknowledge is a subset of omniscience (future).

Just like
1. The objective of man creation is to select winners having a certain desired trait
2. For this to be, their are challenges introduced by the producer(GOD) for the purpose of eliminating the undesired participants.
3. No one decides (writes the scripts) for each human being (freewill). Each human has his freedom of choice.
4. Since God had "watched the final recording" even before creation, then He has a foreknowledge of each mans actions
5. The fact that God has a foreknowledge does not imply that he predetermined a persons choices (predestination) AND thus does not control/decide who wins and who looses.

Perfectly LOGICAL

The only problem I see is you shutting out the feasibility of foreknowledge as a subset of omniscience.

I see you're trying to disassociate foreknowledge from plan, from the first example i gave.
But this question by frank317 should clear the air:
What's the function of fore knowledge in the midst of choice and freewill?

I gave you a perfect illustration:

Let's say you are that powerful and you are to create a universe with a time-line and you know what would happen in the beginning and end of that time-line and then you went ahead to create it, this very act means nothing in that time-line should surprise you or change from your EXPECTATION.

From this simple illustration, you should have realised that if your God knows what would happen and went ahead to create it, then he has foreordained the subsequent series of events.

You are wrong to use your "Producer - reality tv show example", because in that illustration he only has the opportunity to see what would happen, but he never initiated this events.

With God's foreknowledge, there was no way Adam couldn't have fallen, NO WAY.
Now, the very act of creating Adam shows he has initiated and foreordained this series of events that is to take place out of his foreknowledge.

Let me ask you this question:
Does God's foreknowledge include himself interacting and warning people?
That is, did he foresee himself warning Adam?

If yes:
What's the need for God to warn Adam if he knew what would happen, or is there any need to warn about life and death(towards salvation) if he knows what would happen?

frank317:


Again... What's the use of fore knowledge if u cannot use it. Since u know that God has fore knowledge, please tell me what he does with it.

I used the teacher example and i see u pretended u didn't even see it. However u brought up an example were u gave me the ability to time travel to 13 years from now... Before i respond to that also attribute such abilities as... All powerful, all loving, and all ominieverything assigned to God. I will tell u how i will handle the kanu and buhari scenario.
In my teacher​-student example i even describe how the issue can be resolved. But u jumped and and brought up urs in a way that makes it seems like the only power God has is just to sneak into the future.

Is he not the creator?
Didn't he know before creating?
Didn't he have good intentions?
Does the suffering of the weak and helpless not affect him?
The ability to see the future must have a function, what is the function of this ability?




What's the function of fore knowledge in the midst of choice and freewill.
What does he intend to achieve with free will. Free will has not made the world a better place.
Is free will just for accepting and rejecting a creator we have never seen. Is the choice of rejection bad if i am born in a Moslem home and despite ur preaching, i look at my background and decide,based on what i have been told, that islam is right, Jesus is not the son of God because trinity does not make sense?
The free will u use in rejecting Mohammed is the freewill a Moslem will use in rejecting Jesus is the son of God.

What's my point..U speak of free will as if it is not determinant on other factors. There is home training, biological and psychological factors, all affecting the choice an individualvidual will make in accepting Ur idea of God.
Is God going to consider other things? Or will he just focus on free will which, obviously has not turned out good for the world?

I believe you understood my point but you seem to question that audacity of this God based on the function of foreknowledge.

Again... What's the use of fore knowledge if u cannot use it. Since u know that God has fore knowledge, please tell me what he does with it.

First, Foreknowledge is an attribute only God has. Without foreknowledge, God is limited in scope, in time and in power. Its a take it or leave it situation. Is this a wrong preposition?

Before you accuse me of giving evasive answers, one of the purpose of foreknowledge is the power of intervention. Eg. If I could foreknow that you will shoot me with a Magnum 450, I could replace your live bullets discreetly with blanks. The Future isn't cast in steel.

You asked a number of questions which has been answered above.

Is he not the creator?
Didn't he know before creating?
Didn't he have good intentions?
Does the suffering of the weak and helpless not affect him?
The ability to see the future must have a function, what is the function of this ability?

However, you seem to challenge the idea that God is good and loving by the problem freewill has caused the world.

Unfortunately, the cost of true freedom is high. The only way to prevent the present chaos was for God to create beings who cannot do wrong, perfect in all sense.

If God did that, which He could, He would have created Robots. I believe God did not intend to make man as robots.

What's the function of fore knowledge in the midst of choice and freewill.
What does he intend to achieve with free will. Free will has not made the world a better place.
Is free will just for accepting and rejecting a creator we have never seen. Is the choice of rejection bad if i am born in a Moslem home and despite ur preaching, i look at my background and decide,based on what i have been told, that islam is right, Jesus is not the son of God because trinity does not make sense?
The free will u use in rejecting Mohammed is the freewill a Moslem will use in rejecting Jesus is the son of God.

Your second question above:
What does God intend to achieve by giving us freewill?
SELECTION!
Selection of those who BY their OWN volition will Choose to LOVE HIM and OTHERS...those worthy to Receive the TITLE "sons of God". Not forced, not coerced but despite all odds, survived the con termination of this world.

The Bible says that each will be judged according to the level of GRACE he has received. Those who were born without the grace of hearing the gospel will be judged according to their conscience.

Since, I am not God, I cannot give you the formula He is going to use. I can speak only of what I understand.

Moreover, even in Hell, there are categories, compartments and degrees. Its not a blanket judgement for all.

So, leave the Muslims, Hindus etc alone, Focus on yourself and the truths you have heard.

The Sacrifice of Christ was an intervention...so that the weak can receive salvation as a gift.

If my parents were Moslems, the probability that I will be a Muslim is very high. But God has the way of judging them, I cannot. And that is why the Bible says that those who make paradise will not be able to boast that they were able to do it purely by themselves. But then, by grace we are saved, through faith...it is a gift of God.

The objective of freewill was not to make the world a better place. It is for God to make his selection.

4kings:

I see you're trying to disassociate foreknowledge from plan, from the first example i gave.
But this question by frank317 should clear the air:
What's the function of fore knowledge in the midst of choice and freewill?

Foreknowledge is an attribute of God. Just like intelligence is an attribute of Man. Without foreknowledge, God is no better than man in scope, time, space and power.

I gave you a perfect illustration:

From this simple illustration, you should have realised that if your God knows what would happen and went ahead to create it, then he has foreordained the subsequent series of events.

NO Sir!
If I know that if I gave myself an anti-malaria injection do I know that it would be painful?
If I still went ahead to give myself the injection and it was painful, did I "ordain" the pain?

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of the evil freewill will cause and still went ahead to create it simply means that there exist an overall good (Gods final objective) from the chaos.

You are wrong to use your "Producer - reality tv show example", because in that illustration he only has the opportunity to see what would happen, but he never initiated this events.

With God's foreknowledge, there was no way Adam couldn't have fallen, NO WAY.
Now, the very act of creating Adam shows he has initiated and foreordained this series of events that is to take place out of his foreknowledge.

In the example of the reality TV I used, don't forget that like God, the Producer selected the participants, gave the rules of the game and ultimately judge the participants. Still yet, with that amount of control, he doesn't write their speeches.

So, you see.. the example was perfect. The producer even sponsors the events.

In foreknowledge, God knew that Adam would fall and chaos will result. But Gods foreknowledge also knew that a deserable set of the humans will survive the infection of sin.

For the sake of those people, worthy to be called Gods sons, God allowed evil to prevail.

Let me ask you this question:
Does God's foreknowledge include himself interacting and warning people?
That is, did he foresee himself warning Adam?

If yes:
What's the need for God to warn Adam if he knew what would happen, or is there any need to warn about life and death(towards salvation) if he knows what would happen?

Foreknowledge is absolute

Every reality game has rules. Without rules Adam would had no fault. If Adam was not told of the forbidden fruit and he ate of it, then God will be at fault for not warning him.

Foreknowledge is about a pre knowledge of YOUR FINAL CHOICES, its not about CONTROL

shadeyinka:

I believe you understood my point but you seem to question that audacity of this God based on the function of foreknowledge.

in all honesty, i really do not understand the foreknowledge concept. Your explanations are obviously evasive. There are core and indept implications of forknowledge that u are intentionally overlooking.
And to all honesty, I really really do not feel i am questioning God's audacity, if it were so, i would be questioning God not you. I strongly believe I am questioning your your idea of God. If God feel the best medium to communicate with me(perhaps because he knows i have no right to question him), he obviously expect me to challenge what does not go well with me. He, perhaps, knows I have the write to use this medium to question everything. I am open mined here, and if you can't convince me, I have no choice but to just doubt the authenticity of ur information.

First, Foreknowledge is an attribute only God has. Without foreknowledge, God is limited in scope, in time and in power. Its a take it or leave it situation. Is this a wrong preposition?

Before you accuse me of giving evasive answers, one of the purpose of foreknowledge is the power of intervention. Eg. If I could foreknow that you will shoot me with a Magnum 450, I could replace your live bullets discreetly with blanks. The Future isn't cast in steel.

You asked a number of questions which has been answered above.

if you sincerely typed the above and trusting yourself that you have answered my question, then I am afraid I will stop questioning u, because obviously you dont have the answers I need.
but let me try again...
Its interesting to see that Foreknowledge it an attribute only God has, and you rightly put that its purpose is the power of intervention... however, we have a God who has fore knowledge but acts like he does not have it.
He acts surprise when we act out what he already knows
He knows our future and knows we are bound by what he knows, yet he says the choice is ours (again denying fore knowledge)
He send instructions to humans to change from ways he already knows we will not change from (this action denies for knowledge)
He loves us, knows the dangers of our choice but does not intervene (purpose of fore knowlegde is defeated here)
The world is a messed up as it can be when Buhari with all his limitations becomes God.

However, you seem to challenge the idea that God is good and loving by the problem freewill has caused the world.
Unfortunately, the cost of true freedom is high. The only way to prevent the present chaos was for God to create beings who cannot do wrong, perfect in all sense.

If God did that, which He could, He would have created Robots. I believe God did not intend to make man as robots.

seriously, I am human with brain. If God didnt intend to create us as robots then its high time he actually stop treating us as one. Why should the cost of freedom be high? why should i accept this unfortunate state. Is this what you just tell people u dont want to treat as robot? without explanation.
And no God can prevent the current chaos even if we can do wrong (intervention, simple). If he cannot prevent the present chaos what exactly is he expecting from us, what does he want us to do with choice? You are saying the cost of freedom is high like we asked of it. how does he intend to handle humans in hevean? will they have choice?

Your second question above:
What does God intend to achieve by giving us freewill?
SELECTION!
Selection of those who BY their OWN volition will Choose to LOVE HIM and OTHERS...those worthy to Receive the TITLE "sons of God". Not forced, not coerced but despite all odds, survived the con termination of this world.

The Bible says that each will be judged according to the level of GRACE he has received. Those who were born without the grace of hearing the gospel will be judged according to their conscience.

Since, I am not God, I cannot give you the formula He is going to use. I can speak only of what I understand.

Moreover, even in Hell, there are categories, compartments and degrees. Its not a blanket judgement for all.

So, leave the Muslims, Hindus etc alone, Focus on yourself and the truths you have heard.

The Sacrifice of Christ was an intervention...so that the weak can receive salvation as a gift.

If my parents were Moslems, the probability that I will be a Muslim is very high. But God has the way of judging them, I cannot. And that is why the Bible says that those who make paradise will not be able to boast that they were able to do it purely by themselves. But then, by grace we are saved, through faith...it is a gift of God.

The objective of freewill was not to make the world a better place. It is for God to make his selection.

selection? just selection... despite the suffering we are going through? what kind of Ego fulfillment project is that?

well, without saying much... Since u obviously dont have the information I need, I will still stand by my word that he does not exist.. perhaps if at the end of the day he is real, he will know how to judge me

shadeyinka:


Foreknowledge is an attribute of God. Just like intelligence is an attribute of Man. Without foreknowledge, God is no better than man in scope, time, space and power.



NO Sir!
If I know that if I gave myself an anti-malaria injection do I know that it would be painful?
If I still went ahead to give myself the injection and it was painful, did I "ordain" the pain?

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of the evil freewill will cause and still went ahead to create it simply means that there exist an overall good (Gods final objective) from the chaos.



In the example of the reality TV I used, don't forget that like God, the Producer selected the participants, gave the rules of the game and ultimately judge the participants. Still yet, with that amount of control, he doesn't write their speeches.

So, you see.. the example was perfect. The producer even sponsors the events.

In foreknowledge, God knew that Adam would fall and chaos will result. But Gods foreknowledge also knew that a deserable set of the humans will survive the infection of sin.

For the sake of those people, worthy to be called Gods sons, God allowed evil to prevail.





Foreknowledge is absolute

Every reality game has rules. Without rules Adam would had no fault. If Adam was not told of the forbidden fruit and he ate of it, then God will be at fault for not warning him.

Foreknowledge is about a pre knowledge of YOUR FINAL CHOICES, its not about CONTROL

Shadeyinka you really surprised me with this logical blunder, or are you being intentionally evasive:

If I know that if I gave myself an anti-malaria injection do I know that it would be painful?
If I still went ahead to give myself the injection and it was painful, did I "ordain" the pain?

Yes, of-course.
Please what other answer can you possibly have for this?

Without injecting yourself there wouldn't be any pain. Your other purpose for curing malaria does not change the fact that you created or caused the PAIN.

It has now become clear that you are looking at this one-sided or just being evasive.
Chineke!!!!!

---

Please think on this a little more, before you reply.

frank317:

in all honesty, i really do not understand the foreknowledge concept. Your explanations are obviously evasive. There are core and indept implications of forknowledge that u are intentionally overlooking.
And to all honesty, I really really do not feel i am questioning God's audacity, if it were so, i would be questioning God not you. I strongly believe I am questioning your your idea of God. If God feel the best medium to communicate with me(perhaps because he knows i have no right to question him), he obviously expect me to challenge what does not go well with me. He, perhaps, knows I have the write to use this medium to question everything. I am open mined here, and if you can't convince me, I have no choice but to just doubt the authenticity of ur information.


if you sincerely typed the above and trusting yourself that you have answered my question, then I am afraid I will stop questioning u, because obviously you dont have the answers I need.
but let me try again...
Its interesting to see that Foreknowledge it an attribute only God has, and you rightly put that its purpose is the power of intervention... however, we have a God who has fore knowledge but acts like he does not have it.
He acts surprise when we act out what he already knows
He knows our future and knows we are bound by what he knows, yet he says the choice is ours (again denying fore knowledge)
He send instructions to humans to change from ways he already knows we will not change from (this action denies for knowledge)
He loves us, knows the dangers of our choice but does not intervene (purpose of fore knowlegde is defeated here)
The world is a messed up as it can be when Buhari with all his limitations becomes God.


seriously, I am human with brain. If God didnt intend to create us as robots then its high time he actually stop treating us as one. Why should the cost of freedom be high? why should i accept this unfortunate state. Is this what you just tell people u dont want to treat as robot? without explanation.
And no God can prevent the current chaos even if we can do wrong (intervention, simple). If he cannot prevent the present chaos what exactly is he expecting from us, what does he want us to do with choice? You are saying the cost of freedom is high like we asked of it. how does he intend to handle humans in hevean? will they have choice?





selection? just selection... despite the suffering we are going through? what kind of Ego fulfillment project is that?

well, without saying much... Since u obviously dont have the information I need, I will still stand by my word that he does not exist.. perhaps if at the end of the day he is real, he will know how to judge me

in all honesty, i really do not understand the foreknowledge concept. Your explanations are obviously evasive. There are core and indept implications of forknowledge that u are intentionally overlooking.
And to all honesty, I really really do not feel i am questioning God's audacity, if it were so, i would be questioning God not you. I strongly believe I am questioning your your idea of God. If God feel the best medium to communicate with me(perhaps because he knows i have no right to question him), he obviously expect me to challenge what does not go well with me. He, perhaps, knows I have the write to use this medium to question everything. I am open mined here, and if you can't convince me, I have no choice but to just doubt the authenticity of ur information. 

I am not trying to convince you that God exists. No! I do not even expect you to believe in God. My intention is to Explain Theistic concepts to which all I expect is an understanding (of what theists believe) NOT a conviction.

Foreknowledge is the ability and attribute of God to view events yet to occur.

We don't have to agree on the implications of this foreknowledge neither do you have to believe with me the possibility of any being having a foreknowledge.

Do bacteria's feel pain?
The answer could be YES or NO! For those who believe in the existence of Bacteria's.

Now, if I do not believe bacteria exist, the question of bacteria feeling pain is irrelevant. What is important is to know what those who believe in the existence of bacteria say.

So, foreknowledge has been defined according to Theistic view.

Its interesting to see that Foreknowledge it an attribute only God has, and you rightly put that its purpose is the power of intervention... however, we have a God who has fore knowledge but acts like he does not have it.
He acts surprise when we act out what he already knows

He knows our future and knows we are bound by what he knows, yet he says the choice is ours (again denying fore knowledge)

He send instructions to humans to change from ways he already knows we will not change from (this action denies for knowledge)

He loves us, knows the dangers of our choice but does not intervene (purpose of fore knowlegde is defeated here)

The world is a messed up as it can be when Buhari with all his limitations becomes God.

I believe you are still mixing up Predestination with Foreknowledge.

The present is always changeable, the past is fixed and the future is a function of our collective past choices.

Warnings, Preachings and Admonitions are to motivate you to choose activities and behaviours that will give you a collective beautiful future.

Whatever you do in the present is NOT preordained they are products of your present choices.

This world is a giant Examination in progress. Even when the examiner (God) knows that you got the answers wrong, it isn't his duty to force an A out of you.


He send instructions to humans to change: and some have changed.

He loves us, knows the dangers of our choice AND He has intervened but some are expecting him to come physically down with Kobokos and fire to threaten them before they believe that he is real.

seriously, I am human with brain. If God didnt intend to create us as robots then its high time he actually stop treating us as one. Why should the cost of freedom be high? why should i accept this unfortunate state. Is this what you just tell people u dont want to treat as robot? without explanation.
And no God can prevent the current chaos even if we can do wrong (intervention, simple). If he cannot prevent the present chaos what exactly is he expecting from us, what does he want us to do with choice? You are saying the cost of freedom is high like we asked of it. how does he intend to handle humans in hevean? will they have choice? 

Of course, you didn't ask to be created. It isn't about you, its about Gods objective. Why do we multiply Bacteria for culturing milk into youghurt? To make the bacteria's happy? No. Its simply because we want yourgurt!

selection? just selection... despite the suffering we are going through? what kind of Ego fulfillment project is that?

well, without saying much... Since u obviously dont have the information I need, I will still stand by my word that he does not exist.. perhaps if at the end of the day he is real, he will know how to judge me

Your conclusion is amusing. Just because God will not fit into your finite box, He doesn't exist! SMH

There is nothing egoistic about God. Why should God be egoistic over bacteria-like creatures we are; for who He wants to filter out the undesirable set. You were made for Him and not for yourself and no amount of rancor will change it.

If all we do on earth is grow, reproduce, fight for survival and die at a max age of 100years can't you see how meaningless life is!

And that is why selection is needed. If with an opportunity of 100 years, you messed it up, what will happen when you are given a million years to live.

4kings:

Shadeyinka you really surprised me with this logical blunder, or are you being intentionally evasive:

Yes, of-course.
Please what other answer can you possibly have for this?

Without injecting yourself there wouldn't be any pain. Your other purpose for curing malaria does not change the fact that you created or caused the PAIN.

It has now become clear that you are looking at this one-sided or just being evasive.
Chineke!!!!!

---

Please think on this a little more, before you reply.

If I know that if I gave myself an anti-malaria injection do I know that it would be painful?
If I still went ahead to give myself the injection and it was painful, did I "ordain" the pain?

We were conversing on Foreknowledge and Predestination. You seemed to say having a foreknowledge is tantamount to causing the chaos on the earth.

Foreknowledge is just an ability to know future events. QED
Your present choices are under your control. The fact that God knows does not make you unaccountable for your actions.

You could have made God foreknow the good about you if you chose your present actions wisely.

Back to your so called logical fallacy:

It isn't the foreknowledge of pain that caused the pain of the injection. What caused the pain was my present action of injecting myself. I didn't manufacture (ordain) the pain. If I didn't know injections pain but I still injected myself, I will feel the pain isn't it.

shadeyinka:



We were conversing on Foreknowledge and Predestination. You seemed to say having a foreknowledge is tantamount to causing the chaos on the earth.

Foreknowledge is just an ability to know future events. QED
Your present choices are under your control. The fact that God knows does not make you unaccountable for your actions.

You could have made God foreknow the good about you if you chose your present actions wisely.

Back to your so called logical fallacy:

It isn't the foreknowledge of pain that caused the pain of the injection. What caused the pain was my present action of injecting myself. I didn't manufacture (ordain) the pain. If I didn't know injections pain but I still injected myself, I will feel the pain isn't it.

Abeg wetin be this?

You could have made God foreknow the good about you if you chose your present actions wisely.

This does not make any sense.
Are we still talking about the same "Foreknowledge" or is your understanding of foreknowledge a misnomer for another term?

How can you make such statement.
If God's knowledge is dependent on man's present actions then it's not foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge means that he is supposed to know the end from the beginning.
Therefore, there is a fixed pattern of event known from the beginning that is not supposed to change no matter what.

So any present choice you make is foreknown, if this be the case then your thought of freedom of choice is but an illusion.
And your choice does not in anyway affects God's foreknowledge.

It isn't the foreknowledge of pain that caused the pain of the injection. What caused the pain was my present action of injecting myself. I didn't manufacture (ordain) the pain. If I didn't know injections pain but I still injected myself, I will feel the pain isn't it.

Again, wetin be this.
It also isn't foreknowledge itself that caused Adam's creation and fall. But God's action of creating Adam despite the foreknowledge.

And for your last statement(@bolded), God is an all-wise and all-knowing God, so that doesn't count.

shadeyinka:



I am not trying to convince you that God exists. No! I do not even expect you to believe in God. My intention is to Explain Theistic concepts to which all I expect is an understanding (of what theists believe) NOT a conviction.

Foreknowledge is the ability and attribute of God to view events yet to occur.

We don't have to agree on the implications of this foreknowledge neither do you have to believe with me the possibility of any being having a foreknowledge.

Do bacteria's feel pain?
The answer could be YES or NO! For those who believe in the existence of Bacteria's.

Now, if I do not believe bacteria exist, the question of bacteria feeling pain is irrelevant. What is important is to know what those who believe in the existence of bacteria say.

So, foreknowledge has been defined according to Theistic view.

Of course you are not trying to convince that God exists. That should be Gods duty. You are trying to explain to me theistic belief system which i find ridiculous. I am not even sure this has anything to do with God... It's just Ur idea of God.
Foreknowledge is useless to your God idea. He acts surprised and regrets despite being the initiator of everything. This shows its either he has no foreknowledge, or does not know what to do with it.

I believe you are still mixing up Predestination with Foreknowledge.

The present is always changeable, the past is fixed and the future is a function of our collective past choices.

Warnings, Preachings and Admonitions are to motivate you to choose activities and behaviours that will give you a collective beautiful future.

Whatever you do in the present is NOT preordained they are products of your present choices.

This world is a giant Examination in progress. Even when the examiner (God) knows that you got the answers wrong, it isn't his duty to force an A out of you.


He send instructions to humans to change: and some have changed.

He loves us, knows the dangers of our choice AND He has intervened but some are expecting him to come physically down with Kobokos and fire to threaten them before they believe that he is real.

Foreknowledge cannot actually be separated from predestination when we are discussing the creator of everything since the creator's foreknowledge can't be wrong and i can't use me free will to do any other thing apart from what he has already seen. Probably this is the reason why he actually cannot do anything about it... Because what he see(foreknowledge) must come to pass(predestination).
It sounds more like a joke telling me that God sent humans to preach and admonish when he already knows i will not change, it's sound like the creator is playing game with himself.
Perhaps my present choice is also preodained.. or doesn't the creator already know?
If he knows i will fail the exam, what is the point of knowing when he cannot do anything about it... I'd rather say he does not know.

Of course, you didn't ask to be created. It isn't about you, its about Gods objective. Why do we multiply Bacteria for culturing milk into youghurt? To make the bacteria's happy? No. Its simply because we want yourgurt!

It isn't about me? Seriously? Who makes the choice? Who does the choice affect? Who enjoys in heaven? Who suffers a in hell? How does it affect God whose objective it is.
We didn't create bacteria, we met it here and are just manipulating it to our advantage... Is that what If is doing?

Your conclusion is amusing. Just because God will not fit into your finite box, He doesn't exist! SMH

There is nothing egoistic about God. Why should God be egoistic over bacteria-like creatures we are; for who He wants to filter out the undesirable set. You were made for Him and not for yourself and no amount of rancor will change it.

If all we do on earth is grow, reproduce, fight for survival and die at a max age of 100years can't you see how meaningless life is!

And that is why selection is needed. If with an opportunity of 100 years, you messed it up, what will happen when you are given a million years to live.

I don't feel like i am made for any God. A lot of things about this God does not fit in and i am sure i am not the only one who feels this way.
If God wanted me to just accept whatever he presents to him since i am made for him and not for myself, he should have created me like a robot already.
Perhaps he should go back to the drawing board... He is obviously not achieving what he set out to achieve when. Initiated the world.
He really does not fit into my finite box... This is an honest statement. If anybody should know this it should be God... He should step down from his ego seat and do something... And if he won't... There is absolutely nothing i can do about it. Afterall it's all about him not me.

4kings:

Abeg wetin be this?

This does not make any sense.
Are we still talking about the same "Foreknowledge" or is your understanding of foreknowledge a misnomer for another term?

How can you make such statement.
If God's knowledge is dependent on man's present actions then it's not foreknowledge.

Foreknowledge means that he is supposed to know the end from the beginning.
Therefore, there is a fixed pattern of event known from the beginning that is not supposed to change no matter what.

So any present choice you make is foreknown, if this be the case then your thought of freedom of choice is but an illusion.
And your choice does not in anyway affects God's foreknowledge.


Again, wetin be this.
It also isn't foreknowledge itself that caused Adam's creation and fall. But God's action of creating Adam despite the foreknowledge.

And for your last statement(@bolded), God is an all-wise and all-knowing God, so that doesn't count.

I chuckled not a little on reading your post

Foreknowledge means that he is supposed to know the end from the beginning.
Therefore, there is a fixed pattern of event known from the beginning that is not supposed to change no matter what.

So any present choice you make is foreknown , if this be the case then your thought of freedom of choice is but an illusion.
And your choice does not in anyway affects God's foreknowledge

I have put in bold the attribute of God from your post.

You don't have to believe it.

I see that its not that you do not understand the bolded, but you question the possibility.

That's OK!

What is important is for you to know what Thesists believe.

Have you ever considered the implications of Time-travel in science fictions?

It means you can go back and forth in time. Seeing details that even the participants never saw...

For simplicity, let's assume you time-traveled to Nigeria of 1960 and you saw firsthand all what led to the Nigerian Civil war, the participants, secret documents, false information's, propagandas etc.

Would it be correct to say that you were part of those who precipitated the war?

If your answer is NO!

Suppose using the same mechanism, you travelled to the future into the year 2050 and you found that Nigeria was no more, decimated by a civil war where chemical and biological warfare were used freely.

Would it be correct to say that you were part of those who precipitated the war?


So, you see,Foreknowledge IS Separate from Predestination


So like you said,
any present choice you make is foreknown by God
..perfect if you can time travel.

Time-Travel is a modern fancy word for Foreknowledge!

Again, wetin be this.
It also isn't foreknowledge itself that caused Adam's creation and fall. But God's action of creating Adam despite the foreknowledge.

You are coming up to speed.
If God didn't create Adam, Adam wouldn't have fallen with the entire human race.

So, Why did God go ahead knowing that?

SELECTION!

The creator of the human race prepared a procedure to sieve "useless free beings" from "useful free beings"


Since you now know, choose!

frank317:

Of course you are not trying to convince that God exists. That should be Gods duty. You are trying to explain to me theistic belief system which i find ridiculous. I am not even sure this has anything to do with God... It's just Ur idea of God.

Foreknowledge is useless to your God idea. He acts surprised and regrets despite being the initiator of everything. This shows its either he has no foreknowledge, or does not know what to do with it.


Foreknowledge cannot actually be separated from predestination when we are discussing the creator of everything since the creator's foreknowledge can't be wrong and i can't use me free will to do any other thing apart from what he has already seen. Probably this is the reason why he actually cannot do anything about it... Because what he see(foreknowledge) must come to pass(predestination).

It sounds more like a joke telling me that God sent humans to preach and admonish when he already knows i will not change, it's sound like the creator is playing game with himself.

Perhaps my present choice is also preodained.. or doesn't the creator already know?

If he knows i will fail the exam, what is the point of knowing when he cannot do anything about it... I'd rather say he does not know.


It isn't about me? Seriously? Who makes the choice? Who does the choice affect? Who enjoys in heaven? Who suffers a in hell? How does it affect God whose objective it is.
We didn't create bacteria, we met it here and are just manipulating it to our advantage... Is that what If is doing?




I don't feel like i am made for any God. A lot of things about this God does not fit in and i am sure i am not the only one who feels this way.

If God wanted me to just accept whatever he presents to him since i am made for him and not for myself, he should have created me like a robot already.
Perhaps he should go back to the drawing board... He is obviously not achieving what he set out to achieve when. Initiated the world.

He really does not fit into my finite box... This is an honest statement. If anybody should know this it should be God... He should step down from his ego seat and do something... And if he won't... There is absolutely nothing i can do about it. Afterall it's all about him not me.

It sounds more like a joke telling me that God sent humans to preach and admonish when he already knows i will not change, it's sound like the creator is playing game with himself.

Perhaps my present choice is also preodained.. or doesn't the creator already know?
If he knows i will fail the exam, what is the point of knowing when he cannot do anything about it... I'd rather say he does not know.

Who told you that God knows that ALL men would NOT change. Millions have changed my friend, from all Nationalities all over the world. You may be an exception and that is too bad because you can still do something about it.

God desires a certain characteristics in His FINAL SELECTION. He has sent His words through His Prophets and Teachers. Life-Death choose... And God respects your Choice why the fuss!

If you choose to live a life independent of God here on earth, why do you think He should compel you to live the rest of your eternity with Him?

It isn't about me? Seriously? Who makes the choice? Who does the choice affect? Who enjoys in heaven? Who suffers a in hell? How does it affect God whose objective it is.
We didn't create bacteria, we met it here and are just manipulating it to our advantage... Is that what If is doing?

I am sure my bacteria illustration struck a strong chord in you.

The creator of the human race prepared a procedure to sieve "useless free beings" from "useful free beings" and here you are complaining instead of making yourself useful to Him

If he knows i will fail the exam, what is the point of knowing when he cannot do anything about itYou are a teacher, you have set your exams

You are a teacher, you have set your questions and students are doing your Exam. Now, you see this student who doesn't attend your classed, who doesn't study, completely unserious about school rules and regulations...

Now, you see him writing Rubbish... and he still has the audacity to accuse you of "Failing him"! He says since the Teacher already knew that he would fail, why did he set exams.."the teacher must have failed me!"

Thats more like your case. You are living a life contrary to what God desires (probably because you don't even respect Him and don't even care a hoot)...

Your accusation now is that since God knew that you will fail his exam, why did he set the question! He must have predestined your failure. SMH

I don't feel like i am made for any God. A lot of things about this God does not fit in and i am sure i am not the only one who feels this way.
If God wanted me to just accept whatever he presents to him since i am made for him and not for myself, he should have created me like a robot already.
Perhaps he should go back to the drawing board... He is obviously not achieving what he set out to achieve when. Initiated the world.
He really does not fit into my finite box... This is an honest statement. If anybody should know this it should be God... He should step down from his ego seat and do something... And if he won't... There is absolutely nothing i can do about it. Afterall it's all about him not me.

Too late!
He has made you!
Your exam is ON!

You are working so hard to live in ISOLATION from Him.

Your are the one who should fit into His box, you can't fix Him into your Box.

Imagine a single bacteria (designed to culture yoghurt) who says he wants to fit you inside its box...SMH laughable isn't it.

Does it even matter what a single bacteria thinks or feels or acts or does.

Your choice to be useful or NOT

shadeyinka:




Who told you that God knows that ALL men would NOT change. Millions have changed my friend, from all Nationalities all over the world. You may be an exception and that is too bad because you can still do something about it.
[s]
God desires a certain characteristics in His FINAL SELECTION. He has sent His words through His Prophets and Teachers. Life-Death choose... And God respects your Choice why the fuss!

If you choose to live a life independent of God here on earth, why do you think He should compel you to live the rest of your eternity with Him?
[/s]

I never said God knows all men will not change. The question was, if God knows i will not change, what's the point of sending someone to preach to me?
Let me ask you, when Ur God is busy sending people to preach to me, does he already know i will use my free will to refuse?
The rest crossed statement t of urs are meaningless to me

I am sure my bacteria illustration struck a strong chord in you.

The creator of the human race prepared a procedure to sieve "useless free beings" from "useful free beings" and here you are complaining instead of making yourself useful to Him

The bacteria example has been debunked by me, u can pretend not to see it. U can't compare what we do with bacteria with what u think ur God idea does with us. We are not the creator's of bacteria, we don't love it, we are just manipulating it for our own good.
If u think the creator loves us so much he wants us to be happy then u cannot compare us to bacteria.
If i created bacteria and love it, and see it's future, i will not put it in a red dish when i know putting it there will affect it in a way.

Lol @ i am complaining instead of making myself useful to him. How can i make myself useful to a being i don't even think exists. U definitely want me to act like a mad man.
Here u are even confusing me the more... Telling me the creator knows i will not accept him yet he is asking u to continue in this poor job of convincing me.
How in the world can i worship such a creator?

You are a teacher, you have set your questions and students are doing your Exam. Now, you see this student who doesn't attend your classed, who doesn't study, completely unserious about school rules and regulations...

Now, you see him writing Rubbish... and he still has the audacity to accuse you of "Failing him"! He says since the Teacher already knew that he would fail, why did he set exams.."the teacher must have failed me!"

Thats more like your case. You are living a life contrary to what God desires (probably because you don't even respect Him and don't even care a hoot)...

Your accusation now is that since God knew that you will fail his exam, why did he set the question! He must have predestined your failure. SMH

The teacher guesses those who will fail based on many factors. How i wish the teacher has taken a peep into the future and knows those who will fail and those who will pass despite their behaviours, will he even bother teaching? Or will he start acting surprise when they fail? Or will he go and lock them up for failing, when he already knows that there was nothing that could have been done to stop them from failing?
The funniest past is even when the teacher set the ball for their failure rolling, he made them and gave them the ability to become failures and winners but already knows they were doomed to fail yet he pretends like he didn't know and go ahead to reach them.

Too late!
He has made you!
Your exam is ON!

You are working so hard to live in ISOLATION from Him.

Your are the one who should fit into His box, you can't fix Him into your Box.

Imagine a single bacteria (designed to culture yoghurt) who says he wants to fit you inside its box...SMH laughable isn't it.

Does it even matter what a single bacteria thinks or feels or acts or does.

Your choice to be useful or NOT

He failed...I am useful with or without him...

Too bad for u, u need to start making urself useful by stop living in fantasy land... Be hard working and lead. To make the world a better place instead on believing in a being that lives in your head.

frank317:


I never said God knows all men will not change. The question was, if God knows i will not change, what's the point of sending someone to preach to me?
Let me ask you, when Ur God is busy sending people to preach to me, does he already know i will use my free will to refuse?
The rest crossed statement t of urs are meaningless to me



The bacteria example has been debunked by me, u can pretend not to see it. U can't compare what we do with bacteria with what u think ur God idea does with us. We are not the creator's of bacteria, we don't love it, we are just manipulating it for our own good.
If u think the creator loves us so much he wants us to be happy then u cannot compare us to bacteria.
If i created bacteria and love it, and see it's future, i will not put it in a red dish when i know putting it there will affect it in a way.

Lol @ i am complaining instead of making myself useful to him. How can i make myself useful to a being i don't even think exists. U definitely want me to act like a mad man.
Here u are even confusing me the more... Telling me the creator knows i will not accept him yet he is asking u to continue in this poor job of convincing me.
How in the world can i worship such a creator?



The teacher guesses those who will fail based on many factors. How i wish the teacher has taken a peep into the future and knows those who will fail and those who will pass despite their behaviours, will he even bother teaching? Or will he start acting surprise when they fail? Or will he go and lock them up for failing, when he already knows that there was nothing that could have been done to stop them from failing?
The funniest past is even when the teacher set the ball for their failure rolling, he made them and gave them the ability to become failures and winners but already knows they were doomed to fail yet he pretends like he didn't know and go ahead to reach them.




He failed...I am useful with or without him...

Too bad for u, u need to start making urself useful by stop living in fantasy land... Be hard working and lead. To make the world a better place instead on believing in a being that lives in your head.

Your evangelism is impressive!

Too bad for u, u need to start making urself useful by stop living in fantasy land... Be hard working and lead. To make the world a better place instead on believing in a being that lives in your head.

You sound like a drowning man trying to convince himself that he is OK.

Seriously, I don't believe in Obatala, Omadioha or Vishna. Why should I spend endless days proving they don't exist.

The bacteria example has been debunked by me, u can pretend not to see it.

Its obvious you don't know the mechanism of yoghurt production. You actually MULTIPLY bacteria by producing a conducive environment in milk... their multiplication is as close enough as it can be to creation (its the limit of mans ability). They didn't ask to be multiplied.... You just showed you didn't understand what you claimed you debunked.

Now that we know you have dismissed the idea of God, what benefit have you made to Nigeria. Tell me of one invention that came from you because you became godless?

You speak like God is the problem of Africans (Nigerians to be specific). You are the kind of example we crave for; what's your usefulness to Nigeria. If you are not exceptional stop the ranting and advocating that we (theists) drop our God for what? To be like you? Sorry!

Since you obviously don't believe in God, it is wisdom to understand what & how theists think WITHOUT necessarily believing them.

There is something called HOPE (after this life),
You don't have it
Yet, your primary aim is to make those with Hope as hopeless as you

What do you hope to gain by your action?

Except your serve (knowingly or unknowingly) an anti-hope personality, an enemy of hope in man, ...the hoplessly fallen one, the deciever or Satan by name.

I know you will say "I don't believe in Satan!". You don't have to; he believes in you. You have always done his biddens.

My point is, you gain NOTHING by trying to convince the hopeful to loose their hope.

Interestingly, theists don't have ANYTHING to loose if your position is correct. However, if you successfully convert a theist to atheism and you are wrong...

Conversely, an atheist has everything to loose if the theists position is correct.

....your next argument I know is, which of the several gods is the real one?.....That isn't your business at least each theist can say, " to the limit of my understanding and knowledge, I tried my best"

Good night

shadeyinka:


You sound like a drowning man trying to convince himself that he is OK.

How?

Seriously, I don't believe in Obatala, Omadioha or Vishna. Why should I spend endless days proving they don't exist.

Because worshippers of obatala or Amadioha, are not arrogant like Christians, who condemn for not believing in their own myth. They don't stand on the street, knock on ur door, scream like mad men in the parks or market, and blatantly accuse u for being sinful just because u don't believe in their myth.
Seriously, i am surprised u made such statement, i am interacting with u because i find u reasonable... But the statement above reeks of nothing but arrogance and ignorance.
Just Ur opening statement 'I SOUND like DROWNING man TRYING​ to CONVINCE myself that i am fine'
You are capable of making such arrogant statement above yet you are asking me why i am trying to prove ur Of dont exist? I have e told u in all honesty that i don't have a single conviction that Is exists, i am responding to you becasue i am amazed you u are convinced your God exists. You are even comfortably commuting blatant fallacy by believing your sees and knows the future yet the choice is ours and he cannot do anything about it.
If your Is knows from beginning to end, how else does he expect things to play out if know what he knows?

Its obvious you don't know the mechanism of yoghurt production. You actually MULTIPLY bacteria by producing a conducive environment in milk... their multiplication is as close enough as it can be to creation (its the limit of mans ability). They didn't ask to be multiplied.... You just showed you didn't understand what you claimed you debunked.

Like i told you... We didn't create bacteria, we just manipulate it for our own advantage, we don't have to care if it wants to be multiplied or not, we just want to selfishly be happy. And if you think your God idea who created us, loves us and cares that we should be happy and u compare our relationship with him with our relationship with bacteria then u seriously need help.

Now that we know you have dismissed the idea of God, what benefit have you made to Nigeria. Tell me of one invention that came from you because you became godless?

I don't understand, what's the relationship between dismissing the idea of God and being of benefit to Nigeria? How do they even relate?
I see holes in ur belief, i am trying to show them to u, and now i am being asked what invention that came from me because i find Ur idea ridiculous? You might have as well asked me that that: now that i have dismissed the God idea, what style of sex do i have with my wife?

You speak like God is the problem of Africans (Nigerians to be specific). You are the kind of example we crave for; what's your usefulness to Nigeria. If you are not exceptional stop the ranting and advocating that we (theists) drop our God for what? To be like you? Sorry!

You are beginning to digress... Weather Your God idea is the problem of Nigeria or not is not the topic at hand. Why are u going there? It is not what this discussion is all about... I only made the statement about u being useful and make the world a better place because u were telling me to be useful. And i want to ask to please avoid saying that... Stop sounding like u think i am useless because i don't believe in ur God... That's arrogant. And i just gave u a tester of ur own medicine and u have already made it the subject of the matter... Why use the term on me when u don't like it being used on u?
Let me ask u, do u think God knows we will have this discussion? Trust me if he does then it sounds like it was preordained.

Since you obviously don't believe in God, it is wisdom to understand what & how theists think WITHOUT necessarily believing them.

Trust me i am trying... That's why i am discussing with u but it just don't want to make sense.

There is something called HOPE (after this life),
You don't have it
Yet, your primary aim is to make those with Hope as hopeless as you

What do you hope to gain by your action?

Except your serve (knowingly or unknowingly) an anti-hope personality, an enemy of hope in man, ...the hoplessly fallen one, the deciever or Satan by name.

I know you will say "I don't believe in Satan!". You don't have to; he believes in you. You have always done his biddens.

My point is, you gain NOTHING by trying to convince the hopeful to loose their hope.

Interestingly, theists don't have ANYTHING to loose if your position is correct. However, if you successfully convert a theist to atheism and you are wrong...

Conversely, an atheist has everything to loose if the theists position is correct.

....your next argument I know is, which of the several gods is the real one?.....That isn't your business at least each theist can say, " to the limit of my understanding and knowledge, I tried my best"

Good night

You call it hope, i call it delusion. To me, no one has anything to loose, we are just trying to make sense of our world.

frank317:

How?



Because worshippers of obatala or Amadioha, are not arrogant like Christians, who condemn for not believing in their own myth. They don't stand on the street, knock on ur door, scream like mad men in the parks or market, and blatantly accuse u for being sinful just because u don't believe in their myth.
Seriously, i am surprised u made such statement, i am interacting with u because i find u reasonable... But the statement above reeks of nothing but arrogance and ignorance.
Just Ur opening statement 'I SOUND like DROWNING man TRYING​ to CONVINCE myself that i am fine'
You are capable of making such arrogant statement above yet you are asking me why i am trying to prove ur Of dont exist? I have e told u in all honesty that i don't have a single conviction that Is exists, i am responding to you becasue i am amazed you u are convinced your God exists. You are even comfortably commuting blatant fallacy by believing your sees and knows the future yet the choice is ours and he cannot do anything about it.
If your Is knows from beginning to end, how else does he expect things to play out if know what he knows?



Like i told you... We didn't create bacteria, we just manipulate it for our own advantage, we don't have to care if it wants to be multiplied or not, we just want to selfishly be happy. And if you think your God idea who created us, loves us and cares that we should be happy and u compare our relationship with him with our relationship with bacteria then u seriously need help.


I don't understand, what's the relationship between dismissing the idea of God and being of benefit to Nigeria? How do they even relate?
I see holes in ur belief, i am trying to show them to u, and now i am being asked what invention that came from me because i find Ur idea ridiculous? You might have as well asked me that that: now that i have dismissed the God idea, what style of sex do i have with my wife?


You are beginning to digress... Weather Your God idea is the problem of Nigeria or not is not the topic at hand. Why are u going there? It is not what this discussion is all about... I only made the statement about u being useful and make the world a better place because u were telling me to be useful. And i want to ask to please avoid saying that... Stop sounding like u think i am useless because i don't believe in ur God... That's arrogant. And i just gave u a tester of ur own medicine and u have already made it the subject of the matter... Why use the term on me when u don't like it being used on u?
Let me ask u, do u think God knows we will have this discussion? Trust me if he does then it sounds like it was preordained.



Trust me i am trying... That's why i am discussing with u but it just don't want to make sense.



You call it hope, i call it delusion. To me, no one has anything to loose, we are just trying to make sense of our world.

Interestingly, you precipitated my last post by saying:

Too bad for u, u need to start making urself useful by stop living in fantasy land... Be hard working and lead. To make the world a better place instead on believing in a being that lives in your head.

I believe you remember.
But your evangelism bothers me. The statement above assumes a number of negative things which are obviously untrue.

Because worshippers of obatala or Amadioha, are not arrogant like Christians, who condemn for not believing in their own myth. They don't stand on the street, knock on ur door, scream like mad men in the parks or market, and blatantly accuse u for being sinful just because u don't believe in their myth.
Seriously, i am surprised u made such statement, i am interacting with u because i find u reasonable... But the statement above reeks of nothing but arrogance and ignorance.

And you will note that their are fundermental differences
Major of which salvation, sin and hope are missing.

The Christian God compels Christians to preach salvation, love and holiness to others. This you count as arrogance. No Sir! It is duty!

Moreover, have you seen where Christians force Christianity on people? You have a right to say No!, "I don't want to hear your message or have anything to do with the hope it presents".

You are capable of making such arrogant statement above yet you are asking me why i am trying to prove ur Of dont exist? I have e told u in all honesty that i don't have a single conviction that Is exists, i am responding to you becasue i am amazed you u are convinced your God exists. You are even comfortably commuting blatant fallacy by believing your sees and knows the future yet the choice is ours and he cannot do anything about it.
If your Is knows from beginning to end, how else does he expect things to play out if know what he knows?

What is arrogance in asserting what you believe?
Like you will assert that 9÷2=4.5 anywhere even before a professor of mathematics who insists that the answer is 7.

Your problem is that instead of accepting Christians theists definition of Foreknowledge and Predestination; without necessarily believing them, you want to redefine it for them according to your whims.

Hindus believe in their Mother Cow. I don't! To me, its even funny. However, I know what they believe and I can state what they believe without twisting their views to suit mine.

Only in the course of evangelism would I attempt to use superior logic and scriptures to convert them.

Why? So that they will have the kind of Hope I have.

Unfortunately for you as an atheist, you gain nothing and neither your convert gain nothing as per life after life. Instead, you replace Hope with Hopelessness!

Like i told you... We didn't create bacteria, we just manipulate it for our own advantage, we don't have to care if it wants to be multiplied or not, we just want to selfishly be happy. And if you think your God idea who created us, loves us and cares that we should be happy and u compare our relationship with him with our relationship with bacteria then u seriously need help.

And you believe in the Theory of Evolution?
Survival of the fittest?

God created the first humans and You have been multiplied like bacteria through your parents in the earths environment. You are expected to do the wish of Him through which you were multiplied. You don't have a say in this case. God needs His select "bacteria" to have certain traits, you can choose to be whatever you want BUT God reserves the right to do as He wills with you.

Will you ultimately survive the spiritual environment?

I am more convinced this example struck a chord.

Stop sounding like u think i am useless because i don't believe in ur God... That's arrogant. And i just gave u a tester of ur own medicine and u have already made it the subject of the matter... Why use the term on me when u don't like it being used on u?
Let me ask u, do u think God knows we will have this discussion? Trust me if he does then it sounds like it was preordained.

You were the first to advocate me to be useful to the society. I never gave a hint that you are useless. I only mirrored your accusations that Atheism should actually probe that it is more useful to the society than the average theist. And you being a perfect example, there must be something outstanding about you.

Since you obviously don't believe in God, it is wisdom to understand what & how theists think WITHOUT necessarily believing them.

Trust me i am trying... That's why i am discussing with u but it just don't want to make sense.

It doesn't have to make sense to you. It is important for you however to know these theistic concepts. It can't make sense to you simply because your tool of investigations are not appropriate. Can one use a magnifying glass to view bacteria?

You have switched off the possibility of spirits existing simply because no "physical instrument" can detect them. I understand that!

You call it hope, i call it delusion. To me, no one has anything to loose, we are just trying to make sense of our world.

It still doesn't change anything of spiritual reality.

There is a final proof though:
When I die and my memory vanishes: I still loose nothing and you gain nothing
When I die and my memory remains intact: I win but then you loose.

You do not have a spiritual evidence of what you call delusion. Ask your conscience!

shadeyinka:


Interestingly, you precipitated my last post by saying:


I believe you remember.
But your evangelism bothers me. The statement above assumes a number of negative things which are obviously untrue.

Like?

And you will note that their are fundermental differences
Major of which salvation, sin and hope are missing.

The Christian God compels Christians to preach salvation, love and holiness to others. This you count as arrogance. No Sir! It is duty!

Moreover, have you seen where Christians force Christianity on people? You have a right to say No!, "I don't want to hear your message or have anything to do with the hope it presents".

Yes there are differences... Salvation,sin and hope in ur context are nothing but illusion. It changes nothing​, but just breeds hypocrits. Every belief have something to offer, it's arrogance to assume urs offers the best.
This instruction from the Christian God has turn his followers to arrogant people (similar to Islam). The God should have known better the result end of this instruction. It is indirectly against live and let live... Yet when people turn around and challenge what u preach u ask them why they waste their time challenging what u shove on their faces every now and then.
Seriously i wonder how u would have felt if Muslims preach on buses and tell u to leave Christianity and join them condemning what u belief.
A single example of how u guys tend to feel atheist are persecuting u because they challenge and blatantly reject what u offer shows how you would handle someone preaching a different beliefs at every nook and cranny u go.
I might have a right to say no, but i also have a right to ask questions and disprove u... Why are u finding that offensive? U brought it on in the first place... U called it Ur duty, what do u expect?

What is arrogance in asserting what you believe?
Like you will assert that 9÷2=4.5 anywhere even before a professor of mathematics who insists that the answer is 7.

Your problem is that instead of accepting Christians theists definition of Foreknowledge and Predestination; without necessarily believing them, you want to redefine it for them according to your whims.

Hindus believe in their Mother Cow. I don't! To me, its even funny. However, I know what they believe and I can state what they believe without twisting their views to suit mine.

Only in the course of evangelism would I attempt to use superior logic and scriptures to convert them.

Why? So that they will have the kind of Hope I have.

Unfortunately for you as an atheist, you gain nothing and neither your convert gain nothing as per life after life. Instead, you replace Hope with Hopelessness!

It is arrogant to assert what u believe by telling me am not useful because I don't believe in what u believe. It even revealed itself by ur reaction when i also asked u to get useful by disbelieving.
I can't accept the Christian believe of predestination and foreknowledge because it does not make sense to me.
Listen to urself, do u accept the Muslim belief of afterlife?
Hindus believe in mother cow, u don't, u claim u accept their belief yet u would go an preach to them to have hope and u want them o think u are not indirectly telling them their believe is hopeless. U are funny.
After life don't exist... You mustn't make sense of this world by believing in after life. Stop talking about gain or loss or hope or useful when referring to a myth. It all in ur head, it's not real.
Believing in it does not make u different from me, it's just in ur head.

And you believe in the Theory of Evolution?
Survival of the fittest?

God created the first humans and You have been multiplied like bacteria through your parents in the earths environment. You are expected to do the wish of Him through which you were multiplied. You don't have a say in this case. God needs His select "bacteria" to have certain traits, you can choose to be whatever you want BUT God reserves the right to do as He wills with you.

Will you ultimately survive the spiritual environment?

I am more convinced this example struck a chord.

The example would have made the slightest sense if i even belief there is this God somewhere. U have to first establish this God's existence to me before even thinking it struck a chord.
And if your God idea thinks i don't have a say, then he should have created me like a robot already... He shouldn't​ have given me brain and thought process to consider what does not make sense to me.

You were the first to advocate me to be useful to the society. I never gave a hint that you are useless. I only mirrored your accusations that Atheism should actually probe that it is more useful to the society than the average theist. And you being a perfect example, there must be something outstanding about you.

Well, i guess i misunderstood you... Sorry for that.

It doesn't have to make sense to you. It is important for you however to know these theistic concepts. It can't make sense to you simply because your tool of investigations are not appropriate. Can one use a magnifying glass to view bacteria?

You have switched off the possibility of spirits existing simply because no "physical instrument" can detect them. I understand that!


It still doesn't change anything of spiritual reality.

There is a final proof though:
When I die and my memory vanishes: I still loose nothing and you gain nothing
When I die and my memory remains intact: I win but then you loose.

You do not have a spiritual evidence of what you call delusion. Ask your conscience!

Meanwhile here i am thinking all these makes sense to u because ur tool of investigation is wrong. Do u see?
If i die and there is afterlife, i still have nothing to loose. I Know ur tool of investigation is wrong and this assurance will determine what happens to me after life. I commit no wrong by looking around me and assuming Ur God idea is wrong. If God has not proved himself to exists, he has not business punishing me for that.

frank317:

Like?

Yes there are differences... Salvation,sin and hope in ur context are nothing but illusion. It changes nothing​, but just breeds hypocrits. Every belief have something to offer, it's arrogance to assume urs offers the best.
This instruction from the Christian God has turn his followers to arrogant people (similar to Islam). The God should have known better the result end of this instruction. It is indirectly against live and let live... Yet when people turn around and challenge what u preach u ask them why they waste their time challenging what u shove on their faces every now and then.
Seriously i wonder how u would have felt if Muslims preach on buses and tell u to leave Christianity and join them condemning what u belief.

@Bolded Illusion? Time will tell!

I don't care if Muslims preach...even though, they have no direct command to preach to sinners. They were commanded to enforce Islam on all people.

Arrogance! That is what you feel. Confidence and certainty can be mistaken for arrogance you know.

A single example of how u guys tend to feel atheist are persecuting u because they challenge and blatantly reject what u offer shows how you would handle someone preaching a different beliefs at every nook and cranny u go.
I might have a right to say no, but i also have a right to ask questions and disprove u... Why are u finding that offensive? U brought it on in the first place... U called it Ur duty, what do u expect?

Atheist persecuting Christians!
Where did you get that idea. Your population is too small to do any harm. Although prophetically, at the end time, atheism will be the dominant world "religion" and theg with the pseudo-christ, you will succeed.g

It is arrogant to assert what u believe by telling me am not useful because I don't believe in what u believe. It even revealed itself by ur reaction when i also asked u to get useful by disbelieving.
I can't accept the Christian believe of predestination and foreknowledge because it does not make sense to me.
Listen to urself, do u accept the Muslim belief of afterlife?
Hindus believe in mother cow, u don't, u claim u accept their belief yet u would go an preach to them to have hope and u want them o think u are not indirectly telling them their believe is hopeless. U are funny.
After life don't exist... You mustn't make sense of this world by believing in after life. Stop talking about gain or loss or hope or useful when referring to a myth. It all in ur head, it's not real.
Believing in it does not make u different from me, it's just in ur head.

Did I tell you that you are not useful?
Certainly not!
I said you are not useful to God.

Just as, I am not useful to Allah or Sango or Ahmadioha.

Are you saying that you are useful to God?
Then, I spoke the truth; "for how can one be useful to an abstract non existent concept as God"

The example would have made the slightest sense if i even belief there is this God somewhere. U have to first establish this God's existence to me before even thinking it struck a chord.
And if your God idea thinks i don't have a say, then he should have created me like a robot already... He shouldn't​ have given me brain and thought process to consider what does not make sense to me.

Well, i guess i misunderstood you... Sorry for that.

What you feel or think do not change reality.
Too late!

Meanwhile here i am thinking all these makes sense to u because ur tool of investigation is wrong. Do u see?
If i die and there is afterlife, i still have nothing to loose. I Know ur tool of investigation is wrong and this assurance will determine what happens to me after life. I commit no wrong by looking around me and assuming Ur God idea is wrong. If God has not proved himself to exists, he has not business punishing me for that
.

Prepare your defence before God when you meet Him.
He might bow to your superior argument

shadeyinka:

@Bolded Illusion? Time will tell!

I don't care if Muslims preach...even though, they have no direct command to preach to sinners. They were commanded to enforce Islam on all people.

Arrogance! That is what you feel. Confidence and certainty can be mistaken for arrogance you know.

If you are waiting for time u are on a long thing... Do you know why? It's all after death, and we will be so dead, there will be no opportunity for 'i told you so'

You don't care if muslims preach and tell you your belief is wrong and ask you to join theirs but you feel threatened when atheists openly come out and challenge your belief. You constantly ask them why they are challenging your belief if they don't believe.
Do you even wonder why Muslims kill some of ya? Remind me of the lady killed doing morning cry... You actually don't know how obnoxious you guys are.

Atheist persecuting Christians!
Where did you get that idea. Your population is too small to do any harm. Although prophetically, at the end time, atheism will be the dominant world "religion" and theg with the pseudo-christ, you will succeed.g

Well then stop asking what we are doing challenging u guys, it make me feel u feel threatened.
You preach to us, we challenge Ur preaching... Don't turn around to say we shouldn't challenge u.

Did I tell you that you are not useful?
Certainly not!
I said you are not useful to God.

God is not useful to me, and being useful to a mythical being that resides in ur head is far from my worries.

What you feel or think do not change reality.
Too late!

Reality is what i feel, that why i do not believe in a mythical God, or life after death.

Prepare your defence before God when you meet Him.
He might bow to your superior argument

Ok

frank317:

If you are waiting for time u are on a long thing... Do you know why? It's all after death, and we will be so dead, there will be no opportunity for 'i told you so'

You don't care if muslims preach and tell you your belief is wrong and ask you to join theirs but you feel threatened when atheists openly come out and challenge your belief. You constantly ask them why they are challenging your belief if they don't believe.
Do you even wonder why Muslims kill some of ya? Remind me of the lady killed doing morning cry... You actually don't know how obnoxious you guys are.



Well then stop asking what we are doing challenging u guys, it make me feel u feel threatened.
You preach to us, we challenge Ur preaching... Don't turn around to say we shouldn't challenge u.


God is not useful to me, and being useful to a mythical being that resides in ur head is far from my worries.



Reality is what i feel, that why i do not believe in a mythical God, or life after death.



Ok

Ever felt threatened by Atheists or Atheism! NEVER

How can Hope compete against Hopelessness and win?.

Time is short.

When the truth finally dawns on you, it will not be because you were ignorant it will be because of your willful choice.

Till then, let us both be patient. Time will tell

shadeyinka:


Ever felt threatened by Atheists or Atheism! NEVER

Cool, so next time don't ask me why i spend endless days trying to prove your God don't exist.
If you don't bring him to me i will not bother.

How can Hope compete against Hopelessness and win?.

Hopeless in what? Explain why u think i am hopeless, cause i might get u wrong once again.
U think i am hopeless becasue i don't believe in a mythical life after death? How does believing in life after death make u hopeful? What life style of ur shows u are a more hopeful person than i am... How can u prove to me you are a hopeful person? By believing in a mythical life after death?

When the truth finally dawns on you, it will not be because you were ignorant it will be because of your willful choice.

Lets try again...Ur God see the future... He see the beginning from the end and everything he see must come to pass, but he tries to change us by sending Ur type to preach to us and change us when he knows he has already seen that even if u talk to us we will not change.
Make sense of you God first before concluding the truth will fall down on me... That gibberish above about ur God is what u call the truth? I rather remain ignorant.

Till then, let us both be patient. Time will tell

Stop saying this, u sound like a baby.

frank317:

Cool, so next time don't ask me why i spend endless days trying to prove your God don't exist.
If you don't bring him to me i will not bother.

Don't forget that this Post wasn't targeted at atheist. It wasbfor Christians. You were the one who bumped in. Courtesy demands that I answer your probes and questions and that I have done.

Hopeless in what? Explain why u think i am hopeless, cause i might get u wrong once again.
U think i am hopeless becasue i don't believe in a mythical life after death? How does believing in life after death make u hopeful? What life style of ur shows u are a more hopeful person than i am... How can u prove to me you are a hopeful person? By believing in a mythical life after death?

Do you have hope for life after this life?
NO!
Do I have hope for life after this life?
YES!

Its the truth, twist it anyhow!
Hopelessness is a terrible state to be in.

Lets try again...Ur God see the future... He see the beginning from the end and everything he see must come to pass, but he tries to change us by sending Ur type to preach to us and change us when he knows he has already seen that even if u talk to us we will not change.

Make sense of you God first before concluding the truth will fall down on me... That gibberish above about ur God is what u call the truth? I rather remain ignorant.

Stop saying this, u sound like a baby.

I cant see that understanding is of grace and many times it can be taught.

shadeyinka:


I chuckled not a little on reading your post


I have put in bold the attribute of God from your post.

You don't have to believe it.

I see that its not that you do not understand the bolded, but you question the possibility.

That's OK!

What is important is for you to know what Thesists believe.

Have you ever considered the implications of Time-travel in science fictions?

It means you can go back and forth in time. Seeing details that even the participants never saw...

For simplicity, let's assume you time-traveled to Nigeria of 1960 and you saw firsthand all what led to the Nigerian Civil war, the participants, secret documents, false information's, propagandas etc.

Would it be correct to say that you were part of those who precipitated the war?

If your answer is NO!

Suppose using the same mechanism, you travelled to the future into the year 2050 and you found that Nigeria was no more, decimated by a civil war where chemical and biological warfare were used freely.

Would it be correct to say that you were part of those who precipitated the war?


So, you see,Foreknowledge IS Separate from Predestination

Your illustration again, is a misrepresentation of what is being discussed.
If it's just that then ofcourse, the time-traveler didn't cause or predestinate those events.

But if this time-traveler had the power to create Nigeria and its citizens and foresaw these events, then went on to create Nigeria, then we can conclude that he was the one who initiated or precipitate this events.

So like you said,
any present choice you make is foreknown by God
..perfect if you can time travel.

So any "present" choice made during the time-line was foreknown and caused by the time-traveler.

You are coming up to speed.
If God didn't create Adam, Adam wouldn't have fallen with the entire human race.

So, Why did God go ahead knowing that?

SELECTION!

The creator of the human race prepared a procedure to sieve "useless free beings" from "useful free beings"


Since you now know, choose!

What is this "prepared procedure"?

4kings:

Your illustration again, is a misrepresentation of what is being discussed.
If it's just that then ofcourse, the time-traveler didn't cause or predestinate those events.

But if this time-traveler had the power to create Nigeria and its citizens and foresaw these events, then went on to create Nigeria, then we can conclude that he was the one who initiated or precipitate this events.


So any "present" choice made during the time-line was foreknown and caused by the time-traveler.


What is this "prepared procedure"?

Your argument is like saying that the inventors of Aeroplanes are guilty of the death of several thousands since air travel began. After all, if they didn't create the Plane, people wouldn't die from air crash!

Did the inventors know that people will die from their invention?

If you are in affirmation that the builders of Planes are guilty, then maybe God is also guilty (according to you), then case closed.

If you can prove that Airplane inventors DID NOT know that people will die, then you have a point. Otherwise, suggest logical why the inventors of airplanes still went ahead

Foreknowledge is distinct from Predestination.

Prepared procedure!

1. Objective: Gods Need of freebeings who will Love and Serve Him
2. Create Freebeings
3. However, true freedom must involve exercise of individual freewill of choice to conform or not
4. Freewill must be tested to separate desired characteristics
5. Tests involve several scenarios for which the exercise of choice is made.
6. Compliant freebeings are separated for His use and uncompliant creatures are discarded.

What procedures do you think you will use if you were given the power to create bacterial culture who have freedom to obey or disobey you?

shadeyinka:



Your argument is like saying that the inventors of Aeroplanes are guilty of the death of several thousands since air travel began. After all, if they didn't create the Plane, people wouldn't die from air crash!

Did the inventors know that people will die from their invention?

If you are in affirmation that the builders of Planes are guilty, then maybe God is also guilty (according to you), then case closed.

If you can prove that Airplane inventors DID NOT know that people will die, then you have a point. Otherwise, suggest logical why the inventors of airplanes still went ahead

Foreknowledge is distinct from Predestination.

Always misrepresenting the point!

You're trying to compare Human Cognition with Omniscience.
From mere human cognition i know what could happen from building an aircraft, and this is due to uncontrollable factors like unexpected engine failure, pilot's carelessness and so on.
But the missing fact is that i don't know for sure that these could happen, there are only a logical consideration that comes to mind.

However, An Omniscience being is aware of the exact second the plane took off, the exact second an engine fails, the exact second each and everyone dies.

Omniscience cannot do away with predestination in this case, because events foreknown MUST occur.
However, on the basis of human cognition future events are are only considerations of what MIGHT occur.

I hope this clears the issue.

Prepared procedure!

1. Objective: Gods Need of freebeings who will Love and Serve Him
2. Create Freebeings
3. However, true freedom must involve exercise of individual freewill of choice to conform or not
4. Freewill must be tested to separate desired characteristics
5. Tests involve several scenarios for which the exercise of choice is made.
6. Compliant freebeings are separated for His use and uncompliant creatures are discarded.

What procedures do you think you will use if you were given the power to create bacterial culture who have freedom to obey or disobey you?

Do you not realize that the mere fact of bring up TESTS attacks God's OMNISCIENCE?

If this was the case then God is not Omniscient and he does not know the end results from the beginning.
If this is true then your illustrations is OK.

---

Happy Easter by the way.

You cant say which percent will go and which percentage will be left behind. Gods thought is diffrent from ours. So why must we worry to know.

But one thing that is sure is that many in church will go and many will not. While many not in church that day for one reason or the other will go too.

4kings:

Always misrepresenting the point!

With due respect, you are the one misrepresenting points.

4kings:

You're trying to compare Human Cognition with Omniscience.
From mere human cognition i know what could happen from building an aircraft, and this is due to uncontrollable factors like unexpected engine failure, pilot's carelessness and so on.
But the missing fact is that i don't know for sure that these could happen, there are only a logical consideration that comes to mind.

However, An Omniscience being is aware of the exact second the plane took off, the exact second an engine fails, the exact second each and everyone dies.

Omniscience cannot do away with predestination in this case, because events foreknown MUST occur.
However, on the basis of human cognition future events are are only considerations of what MIGHT occur.

I hope this clears the issue.

Cognition is a process of knowing a thing:
Foreknowledge isn't a process. It is like haven watched a "pre-release" of a movie.

What you are saying is that because God watched the pre-release movie of the earth, He wrote the script!

If you can prove that all who watched a movie premiere wrote the script, then you have a point.

I believe you have heard of the word "intuition" before?
How does a bird know that its supposed to brood on her eggs?
How does a female rabbit know that she is supposed to nurse her blind offsprings? Etc

This is just a proof that knowing doesn't have to come from experience. How much more God the creator!

A question for you: and please answer it truthfully
What is the implication if you are not subject to time space?

4kings:

Do you not realize that the mere fact of bring up TESTS attacks God's OMNISCIENCE?

If this was the case then God is not Omniscient and he does not know the end results from the beginning.
If this is true then your illustrations is OK.

---

Happy Easter by the way.

Not one bit!

Suppose as a teacher of 100 students, I decided to promote 20 students and demote 80 students based on no criteria of selection. Am I fair to the students?

You by this claim that tests isn't necessary in omniscience, however if God decided to create humans and without giving you a chance condemned you to hell based on His foreknowledge, would you say the judgement is fair?

Is it possible to claim that prisoners are free while you keep the prison gates locked. If they are free indeed, then they must be able to decide where they want to go.

Volition MUST be tested and God is Just

davtosh:
You cant say which percent will go and which percentage will be left behind. Gods thought is diffrent from ours. So why must we worry to know.

But one thing that is sure is that many in church will go and many will not. While many not in church that day for one reason or the other will go too.

Of course, God owns the judgement.

The purpose of the wasn't to start giving figures, but to cause us as Christians to think.

The question we should ask ourselves is, even though I go to Church every Sunday,
Does Jesus know me?

shadeyinka:


With due respect, you are the one misrepresenting points.

Hmmm, am i?

Cognition is a process of knowing a thing:
Foreknowledge isn't a process. It is like haven watched a "pre-release" of a movie.

What you are saying is that because God watched the pre-release movie of the earth, He wrote the script!

If you can prove that all who watched a movie premiere wrote the script, then you have a point.

Don't you get the point.
If this is solely the case of just watching the pre-released movie, then i'm ok with cancelling out predestination.
I even addressed this with your time traveler example.

But the issue here is that, this movie was initiated by God, therefore all events in this movie were initiated by God(Predestination!!!).
If i am omnipotent and i have a series of events in mind(or a movie), we can say this is foreknowledge, if i then bring this movie into reality then i created this series of events. So simple as A,B,C.
This is different from your airplane inventors example, which is just an example of human cognition taking place.So i didn't misrepresent any point, i addressed your points appropriately.

I believe you have heard of the word "intuition" before?
How does a bird know that its supposed to brood on her eggs?
How does a female rabbit know that she is supposed to nurse her blind offsprings? Etc

This is just a proof that knowing doesn't have to come from experience. How much more God the creator!

Why are you mixing the point up, intuition also causes KNOWLEDGE, the only difference here, is that it is not gotten from conscious reasoning. So this does not in anyway affect the issue at hand.

A question for you: and please answer it truthfully
What is the implication if you are not subject to time space?
Not one bit!

Then i cease to exist.

Suppose as a teacher of 100 students, I decided to promote 20 students and demote 80 students based on no criteria of selection. Am I fair to the students?

You by this claim that tests isn't necessary in omniscience, however if God decided to create humans and without giving you a chance condemned you to hell based on His foreknowledge, would you say the judgement is fair?

You really don't get it.
If indeed it's Omniscience then this tests and results were all foreknown.
This does not change the issue.
I also addressed this in the "baby playing with toys" example.

Is it possible to claim that prisoners are free while you keep the prison gates locked. If they are free indeed, then they must be able to decide where they want to go.

That's why all our actions are based on ILLUSION if indeed we are in this situation.

Volition MUST be tested and God is Just

This is your problem, you are of the idea that your God is Just.
You know the implication of this issue on that idea, therefore you've unconsciously subjected yourself to selective perception bias.
Well who knows i might be wrong and deluded, but hopefully we would find out soon, addressing this logically.