Sarassin has been of the view that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) borrowed from the religious culture of the land they resided in. and in fact, the Supreme Diety of the Jews is a son of the God of Canaan (Canaan Supreme Diety is El).

More of his position could be seen below:

Hebrew Monotheistic belief is the product of religious syncretism, the history of the world tells us so. The Hebrews or the “hebiru” before them were a largely nomadic people, they assimilated a lot of the cultural and religious practices around them before they finally conquered the vast lands of Canaan and settled there as Israelites.

They were influenced by the Egyptians, the Babylonians (you need only examine contemporary Hebrew cosmology to illustrate this) as well as the Canaanites. These influences are pervasive in Hebrew writings, for instance we see a distillation of the Egyptian writing “Instructions of Amenemope” in the Hebrew Book of Proverbs, just as we can identify that the majority of the Psalms wrongly attributed to King David are in fact praise songs of Ugaritic origins. The instructions contained in the Book of Leviticus emphasizing ritual, legal and moral practices of the people of Israel are a virtual transplant of the legal codices of ancient Ugaritic practices.

We can define the Israelites as the descendants of Jacob, grandson of Abraham. We know that Abraham came from distant lands and even if we accept that he was a polymath there is no evidence to suggest an acquaintance with a monotheistic deity prior to him showing up in Canaan, therefore it is more likely than not that it is his first encounter with Melchizedek, King of Salem and Chief Priest of the Most High, the venerable “EL” that serves as Abraham’s first introduction to the Canaanite pantheon of deities with EL as supreme deity and his seventy sons of which we are told Yahweh is one.

It is clear that the veneration of El persisted in Israel, we know this because the Hebrew Bible records the prophets of Israel expressing deep frustration with the Israelites over their worship of other gods, i.e Baal, Dagan and Yam e.t.c.

The Israelites raised many places of worship to El and many other Canaanite deities many of which survive as name places even today in modern Israel.

The purpose of this thread is to determine the veracity of this claim.

Muttleylaff and JMAN05 are interested in this claim for we wonder how such claim could be true.

Lets try to be sincere and polite in this thread. Pls do not derail the thread.

This video explains who the Hebrews are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZeaNadhpOME


The linguistic evidence demonstrates that the ancestors of the Hebrews and the ancestors of Black Africans once lived in the same speech community. The African religions and that of Judaism originate from a common shrine which was located in the Sahara (Kayinga) before its dessication. The ancestors of the Jews migrated east at the time of the desiccating Sahara while others migrated south. Neither stoped until they got to a viable river – the Nile, the Jordan, the Tigris, the Eurphrates to the east; the Kwara (Niger), the Binuwe (Benue), the Kongo, the Zambesi to the south.

It is during the times of the occupied Sahara when the myths of ‘dm, Hwwh (woman as mother of all life) and Qyn (the smith as a person of superhuman occupation) were shared. What each decided to do with the myths in later years became completely different. Those who migrated
West and South venerated ‘adm and Qyn, whereas the Hebrews got God to curse them both.

The veneration of dimu as ancestor in Africa reflects an older situation than the curse of ‘Adam by the Hebrews. Hebrew religion was a conscious innovation: Abraham consciously broke from the religion of his ancestors. The Hebrews rejected the religion of the Africans just as they rejected the religion of the Canaanites, based on their earlier beefs. Remember Genesis 46: 34. Judaism is the creation of idealists who called their people to swim against the cultural tide.

Only diviners as was done in Canaan, Egypt and Kush, Saul did not find it difficult to trace an obeah woman (es-et ba’a l-ey ‘owb “a woman who is expert at ‘owb” in I Samuel 28:7). It is this underground religion that had its origin in African religion. There was a similarity of religious
concepts between Canaan, Egypt and Kush. The Jews were in all these but their ideologues declared themselves not of it.

We are all familiar with the fact that the Israelites were a mixed multitude and in this mix were the apiru who during the Armana age the Egyptians called them “troublesome marauders.” It included Midianites, with whom Moses intermarried. A subgroup of the Midianites were haqqen-iy “the Ken-ites,” the itinerant guild of smiths.

http://www.asarimhotep.com/documentdownloads/Who_Are_the_Hebrews.pdf

Sarassin

Am I to understand your above comment to mean that you view the hebiru as the same as the Hebrews?

2. Is there any reason for you to object to my position that YHWH (YAHWEH) is the name of the Jewish God, not El?

3. What document do you have to support your view that Yahweh was a son of El, and this son is the same as the Hebrew God?

4. why do you think Melchi is a priest of the El you have in mind?

JMAN05:
Sarassin

Am I to understand your above comment to mean that you view the hebiru as the same as the Hebrews?

2. Is there any reason for you to object to my position that YHWH (YAHWEH) is the name of the Jewish God, not El?

3. What document do you have to support your view that Yahweh was a son of El, and this son is the same as the Hebrew God?

JMAN05 Thank you setting up this thread. Like you I hope we can have a civilised discussion.

To answer your questions, No I do not consider the "Hebiru" the same as the Hebrews, I consider them as possible forebears of the Hebrews much as you would say for instance that the southwestern Yoruba peoples of Nigeria descended from the Mid-Western Bini people.

I don't object to your position that YHWH is the name of the Jewish God and not El. My position is that it wasn't always so, I gave the example of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of God and naming the spot after the supreme deity as he understood it, It is also true that many of the qualities attributed to the supreme deity that was El as well as others including Baal were co-opted by the prophets of Israel and attributed to YHWH.

The Ugarit clay tablet catalogued KTU 1.1 IV 14. States sm.bny.yw.ilt " The name of the Son of God, Yahweh"

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El, at least 1500 years before Abraham arrived at Canaan.

JMAN05:
Sarassin
4. why do you think Melchi is a priest of the El you have in mind?

I believe we are agreed that Melchizedek was a priest of the Most High. The Hebrew bible does not state that he was a priest of YHWH, in fact Rabbinical writings state clearly that he was high Priest of El Elyon.

Ancient Canaanite writings from Ugarit make it clear that the "Most High", the "Ancient of Days" was in fact El Elyon supreme deity of the Canaanite pantheon.

And just so we are clear, Ugaritic writings predate Hebrew writings by over a thousand years.

JMAN05:
Sarassin has been of the view that the writers of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) borrowed from the religious culture of the land they resided in. and in fact, the Supreme Diety of the Jews is a son of the God of Canaan (Canaan Supreme Diety is El).

The purpose of this thread is to determine the veracity of this claim.

Muttleylaff and JMAN05 are interested in this claim for we wonder how such claim could be true.

Lets try to be sincere and polite in this thread. Pls do not derail the thread.

More of Sarassin his position could be seen below:

Sarassin:
Hebrew Monotheistic belief is the product of religious syncretism, the history of the world tells us so

Sarassin:
The Hebrews or the “hebiru” before them were a largely nomadic people, they assimilated a lot of the cultural and religious practices around them before they finally conquered the vast lands of Canaan and settled there as Israelites

I cant agree more with this and the the fact that Abram was a Hebrew, first called to leave his family and his homeland while in Ur

As Yahweh had said to Abram:
''Leave your native country, your relatives, and your father's house and go to the land that I will show you.

Sarassin:
They were influenced by the Egyptians, the Babylonians (you need only examine contemporary Hebrew cosmology to illustrate this) as well as the Canaanites. These influences are pervasive in Hebrew writings, for instance we see a distillation of the Egyptian writing “Instructions of Amenemope” in the Hebrew Book of Proverbs, just as we can identify that the majority of the Psalms wrongly attributed to King David are in fact praise songs of Ugaritic origins. The instructions contained in the Book of Leviticus emphasizing ritual, legal and moral practices of the people of Israel are a virtual transplant of the legal codices of ancient Ugaritic practices.

Will address all these alternative facts when I make mention to ''Sarassin's 11:02pm & 11:16pm On Apr 20'' further down

Sarassin:
We can define the Israelites as the descendants of Jacob, grandson of Abraham. We know that Abraham came from distant lands and even if we accept that he was a polymath there is no evidence to suggest an acquaintance with a monotheistic deity prior to him showing up in Canaan, therefore it is more likely than not that it is his first encounter with Melchizedek, King of Salem and Chief Priest of the Most High, the venerable “EL” that serves as Abraham’s first introduction to the Canaanite pantheon of deities with EL as supreme deity and his seventy sons of which we are told Yahweh is one

SMH. I will also address all these syncretism and forceful conflation at work here when I again further down make mention to ''Sarassin's 11:02pm & 11:16pm On Apr 20''

Sarassin:
It is clear that the veneration of El persisted in Israel, we know this because the Hebrew Bible records the prophets of Israel expressing deep frustration with the Israelites over their worship of other gods, i.e Baal, Dagan and Yam e.t.c

I am the Yahweh and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me
- Isaiah 45:5

Of course, apart from the self evident Isaiah 45:5 above because its a blatant violation of the 1st commandment

Sarassin:
The Israelites raised many places of worship to El and many other Canaanite deities many of which survive as name places even today in modern Israel

The Samaritans and apostate Israelites, apart from the Canaanite, not the Israelites per se, raised many places of worship to El and many other Canaanite deities many of which survive as name places even today in modern Israel

MuttleyLaff:


I cant agree more with this and the the fact that Abram was a Hebrew, first called to leave his family and his homeland while in Ur

As Yahweh had said to Abram:
''Leave your native country, your relatives, and your father's house and go to the land that I will show you.

Where does the Hebrew Bible state that YHWH asked Abraham to leave his father's house? The word used was “Lord” or “God”

Abraham came from the land of Ur, a Sumerian city state which would be found in modern day Iraq. The city’s patron deity was the moon god Nanna. It is not in dispute that Terach, father of Abraham was polytheistic and worshipped other gods, according to rabbinical sources he was an idolatrous priest who manufactured idols for a living. (midrash Eliyahu Rabbah 6, Eliyahu Zuta 25)

The same Rabbinical sources tells us that it was in fact Terah who gathered his family together to make the trip to the land of Canaan, he died along the way.

What standing does Abraham, who had lived all his life prior in the land of Ur worshipping the gods of his father, have to suddenly pick up and gather his family including his father and uncles at the behest of an as yet unidentified God to leave their ancestral home?

MuttleyLaff:

The Samaritans and apostate Israelites, apart from the Canaanite, not the Israelites per se, raised many places of worship to El and many other Canaanite deities many of which survive as name places even today in modern Israel

Good to know that you consider Jacob an Israelite apostate or should that be a Samaritan?

MuttleyLaff:


I am the Yahweh and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me
- Isaiah 45:5

Of course, apart from the self evident Isaiah 45:5 above because its a blatant violation of the 1st commandment

Quite clearly early Israelites begged to differ.

MuttleyLaff:


Reiterating "let us make man in our own image" indeed is a rhetorical statement
and the Genesis monologue of creation is literal in its narrative as opposed to being allegorical.

Events, subsequent to creation in that Genesis monologue narrative however, are part literal and part allegorical
Figurative language using euphemism, personification etcetera were partly used to talk about certain things that happened or that took place after creation

I brought my responses to your comments over from the other thread so we could leave the alien crew in peace.

I never had you down as a biblical literalist but there you go. You insist that the monologue of creation is literal but then go on to say that events subsequent to creation are part literal, part allegorical and figurative. Who then is the arbiter of what is literal and what is allegorical? don't you think you're being arbitrarily selective and subjective?

Genesis 1:26 is literal

I don't agree.

Pardon me for steering you on to the Job 26:7 driveway, where you'll find God hangs the earth on nothing, literally.
Now tell, are you saying, it is impossible or even improbable for God to literally hang up the stars and the moon?

I would not hang my hat on the Book of Job if I were you. The cosmology contained in the Book of Job which closely mirrored that of the Babylonians is as we now know, quite obsolete.

Ah-ha, the $64,000 question.
Its found against the backdrop and in the obscurity of Exodus 33:11-23 but the revealing when, where and how place, actually is, at Exodus 33:23

I asked about the author of Genesis.

Sarassin:
Where does the Hebrew Bible state that YHWH asked Abraham to leave his father's house?

Refer below, next coming

Sarassin:
The word used was “Lord” or “God”

Please re-check to confirm whether it's capital LORD or Lord used
You do know the reason behind using capital LORD in certain parts in the Bibles?

Sarassin:
Abraham came from the land of Ur, a Sumerian city state which would be found in modern day Iraq. The city’s patron deity was the moon god Nanna. It is not in dispute that Terach, father of Abraham was polytheistic and worshipped other gods, according to rabbinical sources he was an idolatrous priest who manufactured idols for a living. (midrash Eliyahu Rabbah 6, Eliyahu Zuta 25)

You're not posting unfamiliar information here, so note, I am not contesting that Terah etcetera was polytheistic and lived beyond the Euphrates River worshipping other gods.

But out of curiousty though, would like to know which of the midrash types is this one you've referenced?

Sarassin:
The same Rabbinical sources tells us that it was in fact Terah who gathered his family together to make the trip to the land of Canaan, he died along the way

... you convenietly left out that, it was not Terah but it was Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran who God appeared to and asked to leave his native country, his relatives, and his father's house and go to the land that YHWH will show him

Terah, out of a desire to participate and partake in this inheritance promise, wisely, made the conscious choice or decision to follow along with Abraham

Though the Canaan trip zeal was aborted, as Terah opted to stay put at Haran en route Canaan, where he eventually died,
the Canaan torch was re-ignited and kept alight, after he, Terah, Abraham's father had died, when God got Abraham out of Haran and brought him into Canaan, the promised land.

Sarassin:
What standing does Abraham, who had lived all his life prior in the land of Ur worshipping the gods of his father, have to suddenly pick up and gather his family including his father and uncles at the behest of an as yet unidentified God to leave their ancestral home?

Abram rose to the occasion
and stood up to go Canaan because I AM, also known as YHWH or Yahweh or Jehovah or capital LORD in the Bibles spoke to him

Sarassin:
Good to know that you consider Jacob an Israelite apostate or should that be a Samaritan?

Jacob is neither an Israelite apostate or a Samaritan but realistically is Hebrew

Sarassin:
Quite clearly early Israelites begged to differ.

Who is an Israelite?
Define an Israelite
Give me as many biblical examples you can muster of who is one

Sarassin:
I brought my responses to your comments over from the other thread so we could leave the alien crew in peace

''...leave the alien crew in peace''
Thank you

Sarassin:
I never had you down as a biblical literalist but there you go

By the grace of God, I know when to be literal and when not to be literal
I know when a narrative is literal and when it is not
I know when not to obey the letter of the law but to obey the spirit of the law
because the letter kills, and the spirit gives life

There are ocassions to be a literalist and ocassions not to be
It is safe on this ocassion and in regards to this instance, to be put down as a biblical literalist

Sarassin:
You insist that the monologue of creation is literal but then go on to say that events subsequent to creation are part literal, part allegorical and figurative

Proves putting me down as a biblical literalist is a paradox then, don't you think?

Sarassin:
Who then is the arbiter of what is literal and what is allegorical?

You, I, everyone and each one of us, with help and in accordance to our capacity to receive

Sarassin:
Don't you think you're being arbitrarily selective and subjective?

Thank you for a honestly and straightforwardly put question
Dont you think I am being true to the narrative regardless of the consequences
Things like this, you just know it's literal when you see it
because the knowing had become something intrinsic to you
It's either you have it or you don't
So no, no, no, just being real.
No arbitrary selection, nothing random and no ulterior motive

Sarassin:
I don't agree

What in Genesis 1:26 dont you agree with is literal?

Sarassin:
I would not hang my hat on the Book of Job if I were you.
The cosmology contained in the Book of Job which closely mirrored that of the Babylonians is as we now know, quite obsolete

So you're saying the earth is NOT hung out there in the universe by God?

Sarassin:
I asked about the author of Genesis

No, you didnt ask about the author of Genesis
but asked ''where does the author of Genesis state that he obtained disclosure in the form of a revelation from God?''
of which you've duly being replied

Isra-EL

Sarassin:


JMAN05 Thank you setting up this thread. Like you I hope we can have a civilised discussion.

To answer your questions, No I do not consider the "Hebiru" the same as the Hebrews, I consider them as possible forebears of the Hebrews much as you would say for instance that the southwestern Yoruba peoples of Nigeria descended from the Mid-Western Bini people.

I don't object to your position that YHWH is the name of the Jewish God and not El. My position is that it wasn't always so, I gave the example of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of God and naming the spot after the supreme deity as he understood it, It is also true that many of the qualities attributed to the supreme deity that was El as well as others including Baal were co-opted by the prophets of Israel and attributed to YHWH.

The Ugarit clay tablet catalogued KTU 1.1 IV 14. States sm.bny.yw.ilt " The name of the Son of God, Yahweh"

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El, at least 1500 years before Abraham arrived at Canaan.

Very correct.
The Hebrew god was a junior god in the Canaanite pantheon of gods, and El was the most high god in that pantheon.
The ugarith texts go further to list these 12 gods of the pantheon that included el shaddai, the Hebrew god. It also states that Ashera was the consort of el shaddai.

The Bible supports the junior status of Yahweh/Jehovah by telling us that the tribe of Israel , from the clan of Jacob and Isaac, along with patches land along the valleys of ancient Canaan, was Yahweh's own inheritance.
This was the so-called promised land.
This explains why Yahweh instructed his Israelite armies that all inhabitants of his promised land, his own inheritance, be mercilessly wiped out.

What the Bible chroniclers did was simply to merge all the personalities and attributes of the all the Canaanite and Egyptian Pantheons into one super imaginary deity they called Yahweh.

That is why I don't see any difference between the monotheistic religions - Judaism, Christianity, Islam. They simply merged deities, teachings and cultures in their locality to make the religion easily acceptable to the locals.

plaetton:


This explains why Yahweh instructed his Israelite armies that all inhabitants of his promised land, his own inheritance, be mercilessly wiped out.

What the Bible chroniclers did was simply to merge all the personalities and attributes of the all the Canaanite and Egyptian Pantheons into one super imaginary deity they called Yahweh.

Hit the nail on the head!

MuttleyLaff:

By the grace of God, I know when to be literal and when not to be literal
I know when a narrative is literal and when it is not
I know when not to obey the letter of the law but to obey the spirit of the law
because the letter kills, and the spirit gives life

There are ocassions to be a literalist and ocassions not to be
It is safe on this ocassion and in regards to this instance, to be put down as a biblical literalist

Thank you for a honestly and straightforwardly put question
Dont you think I am being true to the narrative regardless of the consequences
Things like this, you just know it's literal when you see it
because the knowing had become something intrinsic to you
It's either you have it or you don't
So no, no, no, just being real.
No arbitrary selection, nothing random and no ulterior motive

It's great that the Grace of God provides you illumination as to what is a literal narrative and what isn't. My point is that others may not be quite so lucky, and therein lies the problem, you say you know when to obey the letter of the law and when not to, but really it is your subjective analysis that you term "Grace of God".

So you're saying the earth is NOT hung out there in the universe by God?

Oh, I agree that the Earth is hung out there in the universe, the question is, does the literalist in you agree with the Genesis model of the Earth with its overturned "hard bowl" of the heavens with windows for the "tears of heaven" surrounded by water?

Let me come in here by putting a time frame to the Jewish writing, the Torah was written around 460BC, modern scholarship put it at 430-465BC...this was the time when the Jews where just leaving babylon on their exile. When the Lord Marduk told cyrus to free everybody who where held against their will. This God that calls cyrus his servant is no other than Marduk..He was the God the Jews worship, he chose israel as his son/servant. ..

That will make Ezra the author of the first five books of Moses..which I agree with..most of the Jews did not even know who this God was Isaiah45 :1-10. They worship the God of the surrounding towns, and for this they where punished.
They got most of their stories from babylon e.g the story of Noah was gotten from the story of Altehexes....i don't know if I got the spelling right.
They incorporated this story in their belief system..the Jews always knew there were other God but chose to serve Marduk because he chose them as a people...if you look at the list of nations in genesis chapter 9,10..no mention of Israel cause they where Marduk portion...all the other sons of God where kings and Queens over those countries..deut 32:7.

Sarassin:


Good to know that you consider Jacob an Israelite apostate or should that be a Samaritan?

Sir good to have you back...We've always thirst for your teachings please create more threads in your spare time.I beseech you.Thank you.

The Jews are not monotheistic, they recognise the existence of other gods but chose one from the lot....this has a name, I think pantheism..

Sarassin:


JMAN05 Thank you setting up this thread. Like you I hope we can have a civilised discussion.

To answer your questions, No I do not consider the "Hebiru" the same as the Hebrews, I consider them as possible forebears of the Hebrews much as you would say for instance that the southwestern Yoruba peoples of Nigeria descended from the Mid-Western Bini people.

Where the hebrews descended is in the bible. Not from hebiru.

I don't object to your position that YHWH is the name of the Jewish God and not El. My position is that it wasn't always so, I gave the example of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of God and naming the spot after the supreme deity as he understood it, It is also true that many of the qualities attributed to the supreme deity that was El as well as others including Baal were co-opted by the prophets of Israel and attributed to YHWH.

I see no need for that. All I could say is that the jews and the extra biblical writers had the same style of writing.

The Ugarit clay tablet catalogued KTU 1.1 IV 14. States sm.bny.yw.ilt " The name of the Son of God, Yahweh"

This translation is faulty, the likely one is "My son shall not be called by the name of yw, o goddess." This agrees with the context cos the line later mentioned ym as his name. see page 149 of the Ugaritic Baal Cycle by Smith.

This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El, at least 1500 years before Abraham arrived at Canaan.

This claim isnt true, although De Moor is among those making this case, in the book by Mark S. Smith (The Ugaritic Baal Cycle, Vol I, Introduction with Text,Translation and Commentary of KTU 1.1-1.2) page 151-152 stated that there were no extra-biblical reference to Yahweh prior to Mesha Stele. According to the book, De Moor noted that given the implicit identification of yw with yamm in I.I.IV, it seems unlikely yw is historically connected with Yahweh. more is found there to show that such connection to Yahweh is not reasonable.

Sarassin:


I believe we are agreed that Melchizedek was a priest of the Most High. The Hebrew bible does not state that he was a priest of YHWH, in fact Rabbinical writings state clearly that he was high Priest of El Elyon.

Ancient Canaanite writings from Ugarit make it clear that the "Most High", the "Ancient of Days" was in fact El Elyon supreme deity of the Canaanite pantheon.

And just so we are clear, Ugaritic writings predate Hebrew writings by over a thousand years.

Firstly, when the bible mention Elyon, it menas YHWH. At Psalm 83:18, Yahweh is shown to be the only Elyon. That shows that the Elyon mentioned in that Genesis is with YHWH in mind, not mythical El.

You should also know that to the Rabbins, Melchi is Shem.

For what I know, Ugaritic writings of Ras Shamra is of the 14th century BCE. If so, it doesnt predate some bible books like Genesis, Exodus etc.

plaetton:

Very correct.
The Hebrew god was a junior god in the Canaanite pantheon of gods, and El was the most high god in that pantheon.
The ugarith texts go further to list these 12 gods of the pantheon that included el shaddai, the Hebrew god. It also states that Ashera was the consort of el shaddai.

The Bible supports the junior status of Yahweh/Jehovah by telling us that the tribe of Israel , from the clan of Jacob and Isaac, along with patches land along the valleys of ancient Canaan, was Yahweh's own inheritance.
This was the so-called promised land.
This explains why Yahweh instructed his Israelite armies that all inhabitants of his promised land, his own inheritance, be mercilessly wiped out.

What the Bible chroniclers did was simply to merge all the personalities and attributes of the all the Canaanite and Egyptian Pantheons into one super imaginary deity they called Yahweh.

There were much more than 12 gods in the pantheon. I wonder where you can prove that all there attributes were merged to Yahweh.

Yahweh wanted no association to other gods. He hated all those gods and its form of worship. You cant reconcile that with your claim of syncretism.

JMAN05:


There were much more than 12 gods in the pantheon. I wonder where you can prove that all there attributes were merged to Yahweh.

Yahweh wanted no association to other gods. He hated all those gods and its form of worship. You cant reconcile that with your claim of syncretism.

Lol.
Yahweh was jealous of those gods. Those were the alleged words of Yahweh himself.
And we all know that jealousy stems from personal insecurity and inferiority complex.
So, go and ask Yahweh why he was jealous of those other gods.

Ok so if I may drop my own contribution wirhout derailing this thread, this is it. Abraham was described as chaldean by ethnicity, the chaldeans were originally settlers in Ur but eventually ruled it. Ur is a small part of a larger community or people called the mesopotamians which includes and most likely not limited to Ur, Babylon, Sodom et al..including Canaan so the migration of Abram might resemble a movement from say yoruba land to igbo land. This migration would most likely be for commercial purposes more over any other because Canaan was a prosperous port city. Abram encounters Melchisedec on this voyage and was introduced to YHWH who happens to be one of the seventy sons of El. Melchisedec according to religious texts is a direct decendant of Noah and is king of Salem and high priest of El Elyon, literally meaning the most high God.

JMAN05:
Sarassin
Am I to understand your above comment to mean that you view the hebiru as the same as the Hebrews?

2. Is there any reason for you to object to my position that YHWH (YAHWEH) is the name of the Jewish God, not El?

3. What document do you have to support your view that Yahweh was a son of El, and this son is the same as the Hebrew God?

Sarassin:
JMAN05 Thank you setting up this thread. Like you I hope we can have a civilised discussion.

To answer your questions, No I do not consider the "Hebiru" the same as the Hebrews

I concur that the "Hebiru" are not exactly the same as the Hebrews

Sarassin:
I consider them as possible forebears of the Hebrews much as you would say for instance that the southwestern Yoruba peoples of Nigeria descended from the Mid-Western Bini people

The "Hebiru" or ''Habiru'' are not forebears of the Hebrews
"Hebiru" or ''Habiru' is different altogether from the Hebrew because the former has more to do with name-calling

Abraham and his forebears are Chaldeans (i.e. Gen 11:31, 15:6)
Abraham and his forebears never called themselves Hebrews
but it is worth noting that the first name calling Hebrew was Abraham

Hebrew is a derivative of the name and/or word ''Eber''
First fascinating thing about Eber is that, he is third post-diluvian patriach after Shem (i.e. Gen 10:24 & Gen 11:14)
making him Abraham's great, great, great, great-grandfather.
and effectively the founder of the Hebrew race (i.e. Gen 10:21)

Second fascinating thing about Eber, is that his name literally means ''region beyond river'' or ''to pass through river''

Now, how come Abraham, a Chaldean, suddenly overnight becomes name-called a Hebrew raises the question
Well this happened when the word was first applied in the Bible to Abraham where he was name-called ''Abram the Hebrew'' (i.e. Gen. 14:13)

Sarassin:
I don't object to your position that YHWH is the name of the Jewish God and not El

Good but El, a Hebrew word most often translated as ''God'' in our Bibles, is a generic reference word and nowhere does it actually signify being a name
YHWH is not just the name of the Jewish God but importantly is the personal name for El
YHWH is not just a Jewish God but is the true and one only universal God

God and El both mean ''the self-existing all-powerful authority influence''

In effect, God is synonymous with El, as in, God and El are the same thing and God and El have the same meaning

God is the English translation of Hebrew word El

Sarassin:
My position is that it wasn't always so, I gave the example of Jacob wrestling with the Angel of God and naming the spot after the supreme deity as he understood it

''... as he understood it''

Sarassin:
It is also true that many of the qualities attributed to the supreme deity that was El as well as others including Baal were co-opted by the prophets of Israel and attributed to YHWH

El is a phenomenon, and YHWH is the personal name of the phenomenon,

Sarassin:
The Ugarit clay tablet catalogued KTU 1.1 IV 14. States sm.bny.yw.ilt " The name of the Son of God, Yahweh"

SMH, you shot yourself in the foot with this one by butchering the translation of that Ugarit clay isolated tablet fragment
That word and/or name ''ilt'' is being mistranslated as the name El.
This is wrong because in Ugaritic the name El is written as ''il,'' and not as ''ilt''

Sarassin:
This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El, at least 1500 years before Abraham arrived at Canaan.

Tear down their altars, crush their sacred stones, burn their poles dedicated to the goddess Asherah,
cut down their idols, and wipe out the names of their gods from those places.
- Deuteronomy 12:3

When you build the altar for the LORD (i.e. Yahweh) your God,
never plant beside it any tree dedicated to the goddess Asherah.
- Deuteronomy 16:21

This mention and the one above it, seems to show that no pleasure was taken in understanding before posting a cynic and skeptic objective, showing off ill-informed opinions, full of holes and glaring errors

Again the word and/or name ''ilt'' in that text is not Yahweh, but is Ilatu, the goddess also known as Asherah
How could a goddess be the "son" of anyone?

The whole text of the isolated tablet fragment, in context is found online
(i.e. my son by the name of Yawu, O goddess `Elatu..." )
It shows ''bny'' mistranslated as ''the son of'' actually meaning ''my son''

The phonetic similarity between the name Yahweh and Yw, which occurs only in a single text (i.e. KTU 1.1 IV 14) ends right there
Yahweh is Yahweh and is not synonymous with Yw or Yawu
Yahweh is El, ''the self-existing all-powerful authority influence'' - God

JMAN05:
Sarassin
4. why do you think Melchi is a priest of the El you have in mind?

Sarassin:
I believe we are agreed that Melchizedek was a priest of the Most High

Affirmative but a priest of the ''Most High'' with a caveat
Read below about more on and about Melchizedek

Sarassin:
The Hebrew bible does not state that he was a priest of YHWH, in fact Rabbinical writings state clearly that he was high Priest of El Elyon

True because Melchizedek didnt know and never acknowledged he is a priest of YHWH
All Melchizedek knew was that he is a priest of El Elyon (i.e. a priest of God, the Most High)
The one and truly El Elyon, whose personal name is Yahweh, Melchizedek doesn't know
and he so unable to recognise El Elyon's name as being good or important enough to mention

Evidentally Melchizedek had no relationship whatsoever with Yahweh

Sarassin:
Ancient Canaanite writings from Ugarit make it clear that the "Most High", the "Ancient of Days" was in fact El Elyon supreme deity of the Canaanite pantheon

The Ugaritic word "Most High" is also used as designation for ''Baal''
or even for his father ''El,'' the bull-god and father of the Canaanite pantheon.

You see another of your one too many conflating things?

It is quite obvious Abraham's El Elyon is quite distinct from Melchizedek's El Elyon
and this is revealed when Abraham publicly acknowledged Yahweh by stating clearly and without doubt letting it be known that he, Abraham had sworn to Yahweh, God Most High, possessor of heaven and earth

Sarassin:
And just so we are clear, Ugaritic writings predate Hebrew writings by over a thousand years

Doesnt change a thing

JMAN05:
Firstly, when the bible mention Elyon, it menas YHWH. At Psalm 83:18, Yahweh is shown to be the only Elyon.

YHWH does not mean Elyon

YHWH means ''I AM'', aka ''I AM, I AM'', aka ''I AM THAT I AM'', aka ''I SHALL BE THAT I SHALL BE'', aka '' I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE'' etcetera
Elyon means ''Most High''
El Elyon means ''God Most High''

JMAN05:
That shows that the Elyon mentioned in that Genesis is with YHWH in mind, not mythical El

GBAM!

JMAN05:
You should also know that to the Rabbins, Melchi is Shem.

For what I know, Ugaritic writings of Ras Shamra is of the 14th century BCE.
If so, it doesnt predate some bible books like Genesis, Exodus etc.

Haba! Chief?
Melchi is now Shem? Tut-tut-tut

MuttleyLaff:
YHWH does not mean Elyon

YHWH means ''I AM'', aka ''I AM, I AM'', aka ''I AM THAT I AM'', aka ''I SHALL BE THAT I SHALL BE'', aka '' I WILL BE THAT I WILL BE'' etcetera
Elyon means ''Most High''
El Elyon means ''God Most High''

Let me rephrase that so you ll understand. When the Bible mention Elyon, the bible means YHWH. meaning that the Bible is referring to YHWH as the Elyon, no one else.

I wasn't writing the meaning of YHWH.

Haba! Chief?
Melchi is now Shem? Tut-tut-tut

To the rabbins. Don't you agree?

JMAN05:
Let me rephrase that so you ll understand.
When the Bible mention Elyon, the bible means YHWH. meaning that the Bible is referring to YHWH as the Elyon, no one else.

I do understand your confident and forceful statement, now that you've re-stated it clearly and in detail
I am not trying to fall out with you
but when Melchizedek used that phrase, who was he referring it to?

JMAN05:
I wasn't writing the meaning of YHWH

But you wrote that ''Firstly, when the bible mention Elyon, it menas YHWH''
Do you see how confusing initially your comment was, especially when we both know that Elyon isnt a title exclusively used for YHWH
as it is equally used for El or Baal by the Canaanites

JMAN05:
To the rabbins. Don't you agree?

I can give you that. To the rabbins, I agree