Empiree:
Na'am JazakaAllahu khayran. And we ask Allah to accept our Ramadan struggles.


I repeat,

Ameen..

YEAH! AND THAT IS THE STANCE OF OULUL-ALBAAB

Subhanallah! Who are the Ulul Albab?

Allah has given each one of us a brain, and let us use it in any way we want. Ulul Albab are the people who not only have a brain, but are gifted in knowing how to put it to its correct use. They don’t need to have the signs of Quran drilled into them by constant repetition. All they need is to look at the sky– and they can read in its vastness, its seamless beauty, the presence of One God who is Merciful, the Best Creator, the one who is Beautiful and loves beauty, the Subtle.

Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for Ulul Albab. [Quran, 3:190]


The qualities of Ulul Albab

The ayat of Allah, whether natural (the sky, trees, mountains, flowers) or revealed (the Taurat, the Injeel, and the Quran) penetrate into their hearts very easily:

[This is] a blessed Book which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], that they might reflect upon its verses and that those of understanding would be reminded. [Quran, 38:29]

And as a result, they automatically develop the love for natural beauty, and for the beauty of Revelation.

They remember God at all times, and are aware of His constant presence in their lives.


. . . Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides . . . [Quran, 3:191]

ikupakuti:


Lols you have this penchant for evading some apposite points & addressing those less pertinent. I dont know if its mere oversight or a deliberate act.

# That's an accusation I vehemently reject. I don't think you and I have a history of discussion/dialogue not to mention of evading "apposite points".

# Can you highlight some of your points I evaded.

ikupakuti:

#This is an AQEEDAH issue so I do not expect you to agree. Your last paragraph up there sums up your position on this issue...that you do not believe one would see God in next life which is the opinion of the shi‘a & the MU‘TAZILA, a position which the SUNNI do not subscribe to as they have enough HADITHS & VS to back their stance. So, theres no need for quoting the hadith from attabarani (muslim also related such) since you wont believe them.

# Oh! You think because of my aqeedah, that's why I reject many things?! Anyway that's what I expect (apparently). For your information, there are lots of things in shi'i theology or jurisprudential issues I do not buy.


# And talk about aqeedah, In shi'ism, there is no taqleed (follow-follow) in Aqeedah. Only in fiqh matter you do taqleed.


# Saying the fact that Sunni have plenty ahadith to back the aqeedah of seeing Allah, is not a point. Billions of ahadith CAN NEVER overthrown even a single verse of the Qur'an in its meaning. Unfortunately, it is in Sunni system that by all means an ayah must bend to the tune of hadith.


* Quran declares, "NO VISION can see Him but He sees all visions". And you want me to believe in ahadith that say, " you can see God in dreams, "you will see him with your korokoro eyes as you see moon without difficulty"?!

ikupakuti:

IMAM SHAFI‘I, ABU HANIFA, AHMAD IBN HANBAL including all the SAHABA none ever deny the ‘seeing‘ of God with the hearts, in dream & in the next life. ABU HANEEFA said he saw him 99x , IMAM HANBAL saw & asked him about the best deed to get closer to him...anecdotes abound as such from sahabas & tabeen, but we do not need to continue going in circles as its AQEEDAH related.

# "Including ALL the sahabah". That's exaggeration I must say.

# Please give me a single a hadith da'if for I know you can NEVER see a sahih, where Nabi ask you to follow Imam Malik, Shafii, et al or ANY sahabi for that matter. I dont wish to bring this but you have forced me to do so. Read carefully please:

" I have left two weighty things for so long you cling to it, you will NEVER GO ASTRAY..."

# What does that Mutawattir hadith suggest to you? It simply means that if you follow ANYTHING in seeking guidance, truth and success, other than the Two weighty things, you will be strayed.

ikupakuti:

# was going to quote IMAM ALI (ra) thank God you are aware of his stance. Can you pls elaborate on his stance ?

#For learning sake, I‘ll like to ask you some questions...

#In Q7:143 God said he manifested on the rock when MUSA sought his sight...

1-why didnt he manifest to MUSA why to the rock ?

# If I can lay my hands on the link about Imam Ali's elaboration, I will post in sha Allah.

# You want to reread the verse you quoted please. Quran says, "...but His Lord manifested His GLORY (falama tajala rabuhu) to the mountain (lil jabal)".

# It was the " manifestation of His glory" not "manifestation of Himself".

# We are told the huge mountain crumbled. Musa only fainted. If he had absorbed what the mountain absorbed, he will be destroyed and that will be the end of Musa. Why? Allah created him to be a limited being. What he can experienced, was also limited.

ikupakuti:

2-If a camera were to be fixed on that rock, would it have captured the manifested image or there would have been no image to capture ?

# Your question 3 throw out question 2. If a huge mountain can exploded upon the fact it cannot withstand the Glory of Allah, what is a camera?!

Remember this verse:

"Had We sent down this Quran on a mountain, verily thou wouldst have seen it crumbled and cleave asunder for fear of Allah..."

ikupakuti:

3-MUSA had his eyes fixed on that rock anticipating a sight of God, immediately it happened he fainted while the rock exploded, did he see anything before he fainted/died or while dead ?

# The least Nabib Musa and the mountain SAW and FELT was the Glory of Allah embodied into light. Let me give you this as per science: if the amount of light (I meant ordinary light) that human eyes can withstand is increased, you will be dazzled and loose your balance. If it is more, you can suffer temporary to permanent blindness and etc. Here, we talk about the manifestation of Allah's glory.

# Who will Nabi Musa explain? A prophet with high proximity to his Lord.

ikupakuti:

4-Was MUSA(as a nibiyy) ignorant of the impossibility of seeing God while alive that made him seek such in the first place ?

Let me reserve this space. Will come back on it in sha Allah

ikupakuti:

5-While did the rock explode & MUSA died ? These are the questions I‘ve being seeking answers to, if you‘ve got any explanation pls do.

# For fear and majesty of Allah, Quran says as surah Hashr which I have quoted above affirmed. What does you and I know or ever experienced of fear and majesty of Allah that can make us faint? NOTHING.

* Can you and I even withstand anjannu without fainting or dazzling?!

This is the End Of KiraKita faah

I am scared

Empiree:
Whats going on here?. This is very simple issue. Well, it is safe approach to say WE CAN NOT see Allah in whatever way we think. I think this is emekaraj's approach. But i dont have problems with someone saying "seeing Allah in the heart". I understand what it means.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1693&Itemid=109


Question, what is a new born baby looking at in different direction even if you bring him or her closer to get your attention?. Thy keep looking sideways even if you scream to get them to focus?. This usually happens from day 1 through 40 to 60 days.

Nobody will ever know since children cannot share their experiences.

@ ikupakuti

Oga calm down, I hav no issues with you, if u had calm down u would know wat I meant wen i compare experience and knowledge, "I said I opened the thread looking for, someone who had a similar experience like mine", I was talking about experience similar with mine, an I never said my experience is unique or number 1 or am the best or anything like that. Its nothing to get a pride from, It's not my fault if u decided not to share ur experience,so calm down, and I will gladly come to ur thread to learned if u opened one. So whatever is making u to bark dats ur business, am not dragging anything with u here, iam nobody in front of allah. I simply believe no one can see Allah, if that is ur problem am sorry all this ur ranting or even if u put a gun to my head won't change that, and it's uncalled for, it only exposes d kind of person u ar.
As for comparing me to a dog I will take dat on my chin. I can't blame u.

This is the only answer I have for u.

The rest are just blabbing, telling me to learn Islamic science an those ur voodoo language is funny, I just see it as the usual u, trying to show urself.

Ur problem is u tink u knw everything, so everyone must accept ur view or nothing, brother u need to open urself and learn too. Nobody dey learn finish. So hav rest of mind am not trying to take ur trophy.

emekaRaj:


Nobody will ever know since children cannot share their experiences.

This is where you need Ulul Albab Q39:18
or warosiquna fil ilm Imran 7

Empiree:
This is where you need Ulul Albab Q39:18
or warosiquna fil ilm Imran 7

Mmmmmmm Empiree obviously u strongly believe in this. issorai

@albaqir,

See, I dont want to turn this into an AQEEDAH vs AQEEDAH or SUNNI vs SHIA arguement.

What I meant by evading apposite points is you attributing figurative meaning to quranic words just to alter their meaning to suit your stance as you did with DHARABA on the other thread & here NAZIRAH but then lets forget that.

#Good to know you dont do TAQLEED on AQEEDAH even though its not apparent on this topic.

#Do you really mean the practices of the SAHABA, TABEEN should be boycotted in religion cos there is no hadiths which enjoin us to follow them ? Then why should we believe the books (Quran & hadiths) they passed down to us since they who are the medium are not relaible ?

#This your allegory of light/glory that the mountain saw & felt where did you get it from ? Cos the Quran didnt mention it o ? You mean the light was so powerful to reduce a mountain to powder & knock MUSA out but miraclously MUSA didnt go blind what a light ?

#I was actually coming to surat harsh with this question due to your earlier submission that the countenance of God cannot be counted as his ayah but your answers to those questions are not convincing enough.

Albaqir lets drop this I dont know how to argue & argue on simple issues & like I said its a matter of AQEEDAH & we all have got our proofs. May God enlighten us the more.

emekaRaj:


Mmmmmmm Empiree obviously u strongly believe in this. issorai

Lol

Growing up, they used to tell us not to leave baby alone in the room. They see things.

ikupakuti:


4-Was MUSA(as a nibiyy) ignorant of the impossibility of seeing God while alive that made him seek such in the first place ?
.

Here's an excerpt from the book, "LIGHT WITHIN ME". Its a book on Irfan (spiritual journey):


As for the Prophets the Qur'an says at one place: And when his Lord revealed His glory to the mountain, He sent it crashing down. And Moses fell down senseless (Surah al-A'raf,7:143). When Allah imparted special spiritual training to Moses he said to Allah: 'My lord, let me see you.'

Obviously an eminent Prophet cannot ask for seeing Allah with his physical eyes. Therefore his request must have been for a kind of seeing appropriate to the seer and the object to be seen. But even this kind of seeing was not possible, Moses said to Allah: 'My Lord! Let me see you.'

The answer was: 'you will not see Me.' Allah further said: 'But gaze upon the mountain.’What is meant by the mountain here? Does it signify Mount Sinai? Was it that the glory that could not be revealed to Moses, could be revealed to this mountain? If some other people had been present at the Mount Sinai at that time, could they also see the revelation of Allah's glory? The sentence, 'Gaze upon the mountain' implies a promise.

Allah said: 'You cannot see Me. But gaze upon the mountain. If it stands still in its place, then you will see Me.' (Surah al-A'raf,7:143) There is a possibility that the mountain here might have meant the remnant of egoism still left in Moses. As the result of the revelation of glory the mountain was smashed. In other words egoism of
Moses was completely done away with. 'And Moses fell down senseless.' That means that Moses reached the stage of completely passing away of his human attributes.

What happened to Moses is a story for us, but for the Prophets it is an experience. This experience has been narrated to us in the form of a story because we are not yet free from egoism. The mention of the mountain or the Mount Sinai is only for our sake.

Source: (from Light Within Me, the Section by Imam Khumayni(alaih rahma))

@all LOL... what an excruciating argument and counter argument. We 've all learn one thing or the other from this discussion, everybody should HENCEFORTH sheath their sword and let put a STOP PLEASE!.

Everybody is entitled to his opinions, and the most important things is that may ALLAH increases US ALL in knowledge and put BARKA in all our IBADAH.

MAY ALLAH GRANT US HIS PLEASURE AND WAYIHI.

Thanks.

emekaRaj:

You see your problem is comprehension, who compared you to a dog ? Now listen! Spirituality does not denote Godliness thats the point, go & ruminate on that ! There is no difference between you & those you chasing around in terms of spirituality, i doubt you‘ll understand though.

You see ? Islamic sciences (Quran, hadith, fiqh, luga etc) are voodoo ? learn to comprehend before replying & stop making faux pas!

show my self on a faceless forum ? Nah! we dont get down like that...too fly for that. I‘m yet to even open a single thread to show myself you can check my post history, I hardly post on islamic section prior to your thread. There is actually nothing to boast of as all might belongs to God only. He only uses us to show his signs, failure to realize that is what breeds UJUB.

You have this haughty streak about you & its not good for your progress cos people with UJUB dont go far but then its your life. What trophy did you give me that you trying to take? on a faceless forum ?

If you noticed since you made that arrogant comment on IMAM HANBAL I lost intrest in your matter, when you said craming 2billion hadith has got nothing to do with making better religious rulings, then what will ? Nightmares ? What are we doing here ? Trying to understand religion/life better by sampling vs & hadiths, right ? So we should leave the judgment of someone of such calibre & stick to that of who ? You ? That did not present a single hadith to support your claims ?

You see, let it slide, there is no need for bickering. This is how its done...if you want to make submissions in religious matters, you‘ll have to provide scriptural backing (quran & hadiths) for it, you cant just say I dont believe in so & so just like that, that will amount to arrogance & thats the reason why I suggested you learn islamic sciences so that you can sound more convincing on whatever submission you try to make. Slm

ikupakuti:


See, I dont want to turn this into an AQEEDAH vs AQEEDAH or SUNNI vs SHIA arguement.

# It is you that continuously mentioning "your aqeedah" for the fact that I am a Shia and you are a Sunni/Sufi. I call you to reasoning here. I call you to Quran. But like I said earlier you wish to abide by ahadith or opinion of unsanctioned individuals as against Quran.

ikupakuti:

What I meant by evading apposite points is you attributing figurative meaning to quranic words just to alter their meaning to suit your stance as you did with DHARABA on the other thread & here NAZIRAH but then lets forget that.

# Allahu Akbar.

* I so much enjoyed the fact that ALL of you kept mute on the fact I presented that Nabi displayed "dharaba" in "distancing" himself from his troublesome and problematic wives rather than "dharaba" of "beating". He left those wives for a whole month. If beating is what Allah implied, he will never hesitate to enjoined that command.

* NAZIRAH: This word as many classical words also has several meaning even according to the Quran. It does not necessarily mean " physically looking at". It could also mean "expecting, waiting earnestly". For example see, Q.27:35.

Sunni is hellbent to interpret " dharaba " and "Nazirah" with a particular meaning based on certain ahadith that justify those meaning.

ikupakuti:


#Do you really mean the practices of the SAHABA, TABEEN should be boycotted in religion cos there is no hadiths which enjoin us to follow them ? Then why should we believe the books (Quran & hadiths) they passed down to us since they who are the medium are not relaible ?

# Note: To transmit a message is different from your interpretation and understanding of that message. Nabi did not give every tom, dick and harry the mantle of interpreting his message.


# Do you think ahadith, both Sunni (especially) and Shia spared the Quran? There are lots of ahadith which Sunni claimed to be Sahih which claimed many sahabah and tabi'in did not believe in certain ayah as part of Quran. Or that certain ayah were lost. There are Shi'i and Sunni scholars that believed Tahrif (distortion) happened in the Qur'an. Thanks to these bogus ahadith. Abdullah Ibn Abbas for example, do not believe in certain verses as we read it today. You guys talk about sahabah and ahadith as if they were 100% pure and accurate yet when you see facts in your books, you either run away or cast your opponent as "hater of sahabah".


# The protection and uniqueness of the Qur'an is within Quran and its style itself not to mention the promise of Allah to protect it (against all odds).


# You also mention why should we believe in hadith for the fact that it was sahabah that related it to us? I have said a lot already on hadiths.

ikupakuti:

#This your allegory of light/glory that the mountain saw & felt where did you get it from ? Cos the Quran didnt mention it o ? You mean the light was so powerful to reduce a mountain to powder & knock MUSA out but miraclously MUSA didnt go blind what a light ?

# What exactly do you have problem with here? I tried my best to simplify it for you using our ordinary light. Point out error on that scientific fact/reality. Sun is one of the manifestation of the glory of Allah. Can anyone or anything near it beyond our limitations without melting and disappear?

# Most of Sunni Mufassir submitted it was a " part of light out of many, of Allah" that made mountain and in turn Musa to crumbled. I did not bring this from nowhere. Try to be familiar with your tafasir please.

LadunaI:
@all LOL... what an excruciating argument and counter argument. We 've all learn one thing or the other from this discussion, everybody should HENCEFORTH sheath their sword and let put a STOP PLEASE!.

Everybody is entitled to his opinions, and the most important things is that may ALLAH increases US ALL in knowledge and put BARKA in all our IBADAH.

MAY ALLAH GRANT US HIS PLEASURE AND WAYIHI.

Thanks.

# Why do you see it as "argument" and not "dialogue or discussion"? Besides, is there anything wrong in " argument "? Quran enjoined it so long we follow rules and regulations that sanctioned it.

# Why do you always shield yourself with "everybody is entitled to his own opinion"? I see it as a way of rejecting other opinion without pondering on it not to mention of accepting what is logical in it and reject what is not.

# I arrest my case.

@albaqir

#YOU keep claiming I prefared hadith over Quran but we both know Quran was my first point of reference Q83:22-23 which you substitute another ‘classical‘ meaning for, I only cited some hadith for further reference.

#Again there is no where I said I believe in all SAHABAS, SAHIH HADITHS or a blind follower of any school of thought, so I dont know why you are making up such assumptions.

#You asked me to be familiar with our tafsir, if it was about that, I would have quoted them for you right from the begining, God didnt claim his light manifested but himself, I still asked where did the idea of light came from since you & SUNNI mufassiruna claimed its light, but then maybe I‘ll look for someone else to help me answer that.

#I kept repeating AQEEDAH because we lean towards ASHARIYYA which supports the seeing of God with AINL QALB, in dream & hereafter by translating those verses that denote that, without altering there meaning nor renouncing hadiths which support such while the SHIA AQEEDAH prefares alternate meanings as well as renouncing hadiths that does not support their stance. So, as you can see our AQEEDAH are in contrast. Reason why we should let it slide.

#hmmm...that excerpt that you quoted...do you believe in those allegories ?

@ ikupakuti

Obviously u had a bunch in mind prior to this not just this. I knw ur type, I didn't even remember saying that but u had it all along with ya. Continue to kip them their.
Like I said u r most likely to use every opportunity to showcase. But am not buying that.
I repeat everybody dnt hav to succumb to ur view. Dnt force ur view on me. What should I learn Islamic science for, so I will be well vast in Islam arguement or what, or so I can memories Quran and hadith to prove what. I never claim to know it all, just sharing my experience but since the whole thing is gibberish to you, why not open ur thread or find other thread, there are thousands of thread, whats special about dis one. after romancing this thread from first page till now, playing a leading role the only thing u see in my post is seeing what d dogs are seeing lol, am nt suprise by ur type. thankfully I hadn't gone deep. but by Allah I hav helped pple and family and still doing presently.

Allah or any Gods should just reveal themselves so that all these doubting, debate and argument will rest.

@emekaraj

You seem confused. Mabinu. Go take a shower, sleep. When you wake up re-read my posts again, compare them with your previous posts, you‘ll get my points.

You see? thats your problem, you dont want to learn. Who told you knowledge is for arguements only ? If I say you lack understanding now you‘ll take it as an insult. Knowledge will take you closer to your God, without it you‘ll endup serving the devil without knowing coz in religion you need clear scriptural rulings, not assumption & thougths. Goan sleep.

Interesting. From what i am reading from other sources appears to point that, in Shiism, they dont seem to believe in "seeing" Allah not even in the Hereafter. This appears to be in conflict with Sunnis creed. We all can agree that this material eyes CAN NOT see God. Thats fact. To say otherwise would be kufr as in Christianity and other religions.

There are difference of opinions as to whether nabi(saw) actually saw Allah in his spiritual journey. I remembered growing up there used to be back n fourth discussions on it. What is clear however is that, nabi(saw) being up there was no longer is material body (material universe). He was in a different space and time just like encounters btw waliy or pious Muslims have to be in the state of malakut to communicate with malaika.


Some scholars are also of the opinion that Nabi(saw) did see Allah but could not describe what he saw. He was bereft of speech before he could utter "At-tahiyyat lilah". This is opinion that i hold personally. I remember my coursemate narrating this to me in his apartment in ilorin back then. It was described as seeing something in front of him but could not really figure it out. Apart from these material eyes, "seeing" Allah in the heart simply means seeing His Signs to avoid any misconceptions. Seeing Allah's Signs is beyond other Signs of Allah that our material eyes can visioned. It boils down to levels. "Oju ju oju lo"

Empiree:
Interesting. From what i am reading from other sources appears to point that, in Shiism, they dont seem to believe in "seeing" Allah not even in the Hereafter.

# You can only see finite and limited thing. Allah is infinite while His creatures are finite.

# You yourself quoted Qur'an saying, "NO VISIONS can see Him..."

*Please tell me that verse is only restricted to this earthly world.

Empiree:

This appears to be in conflict with Sunnis creed. We all can agree that this material eye s CAN NOT see God. Thats fact. To say otherwise would be kur as in Christianity and other religions.

# Am afraid you need to erase those bogus ahadith I highlighted above first. Those ahadith talk literarily.

Empiree:

There are difference of opinion as to whether nabi(saw) actually saw Allah in his spiritual journey.

# Is Qur'an not enough? Quran says:

* No vision (physical or spiritual) can see Allah.

* We showed him Our signs

What else do you need?

Empiree:


Some scholars are also of the opinion that Nabi(saw) did see Allah but could not describe what he saw. He was bereft of speech before he could utter "At-tahiyyat lilah". This is opinion that i hold personally.

Where is their prove other than those bogus ahadith as against clear verses of the Quran?! Allah is INFINITE in His Essence and attributes. He only manifest to us via His attributes which our LIMITED/FINITE physical, philosophical and spiritual understanding cannot even do justice to.

How do you want to describe the Indescribable, the Infinite?

Nabi saw NOTHING of the Essence of Allah. What he saw and experienced were "SIGNS OF ALLAH."

Empiree:

Apart from these material eyes, seeing Allah in the heart simply means seeing His Signs to avoid any misconceptions. Seeing Allah's Signs is beyond other Signs of Allah that our material eyes can visioned. It boils down to levels. "Oju ju oju lo"

"Seeing" here means "perception".

# Again those bogus hadiths talk literary to the extent that they liken Allah to something. Those ahadith talk Kufr.

lanrexlan:
"Vision of God"
From the wise sayings of Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib, the Commander of the Faithful AS

Among the things he has stated, peace be upon him...
When Dhi'lib al-Yamani had asked him... "Have you seen your Lord, O Commander of the Faithful?"

So he replied, peace be upon him: "Would I worship that which I do not see?"

So Dhi'lib asked "How do you see Him?"

So Imam Ali, peace be upon him, said:

"Woe unto you oh Dhi'lib...

Eyes do not see Him with a direct witnessing.
But hearts perceive Him through the realities of authentic belief.

He is known through the evidence that points to Him.

He is described by indications.

He cannot be compared to human beings.

And He cannot be perceived by the senses.

Oh Dhi'lib My Lord is near to all things without physically touching them.

He is distant from them without being separate.

He speaks, but without the need for reflection.
He is manifest but not physically.

He has made Himself evident but without allowing direct vision.

He is separated but not through distance.

He is close but without sacrificing His exaltedness.

He wills, but without aspiration.

He molds but without the assistance of limbs.

He attains, but not through deceit.

He is subtle, but cannot be said to be concealed.

He is great, but cannot be said to be arrogant.

He is grand in His grandeur.

He cannot be described as having sizeable magnitude.

He is majestical in His splendor.

He cannot be described as massive.

He hears, but cannot be said to use the organ of hearing.

He sees, but cannot be attributed with the sense of sight.

He is merciful, but cannot be said to have weakness of heart.

He was before all things...

So that nothing can be said to be before Him.
And He is after all things

So "after" is not said of anything after Him.
He is within all things.

Without being merged with them...

And also without being separated from them.
He exists, but without the need to come into existence.

He acts without compulsion.

He determines, but without the need for movement.
Places do not contain Him.

He is not contained within time.

Attributes do not define Him with due respect.

The need for slumber never affects Him.

His existence precedes time itself.

His being precedes non-existence.

His eternalness precedes all beginnings.

He was Lord before there was anything to be lord of.

And He was God before there was anything to be god of.

He was knowing, before there was anything to be known.

He was hearing, before there was anything to be heard.

Faces surrender before His grandeur.

Hearts tremble exceedingly out of fear of Him.

Souls strive desperately to attain His full satisfaction."

By Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib AS in Nahjul Balagha & al-Kafi

Thanks brother for quoting this. I was searching for it since. In Munajat shabaniyah, we pray:


"My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations
with everything else and total submission to You.
Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their
looking at You to the extent that they penetrate the
veils of light and reach the Source of Grandeur, and let
our souls get suspended by the glory of Your sanctity
(The Invocation of Sha'baniyah)

# Those are words of arif (spiritual wayfarer) which a Mufassir, philosopher, etc might interpret literarily.

AlBaqir:


# You can only see finite and limited thing. Allah is infinite while His creatures are finite.

# You yourself quoted Qur'an saying, "NO VISIONS can see Him..."

*Please tell me that verse is only restricted to this earthly world.



# Am afraid you need to erase those bogus ahadith I highlighted above first. Those ahadith talk literarily.




# Is Qur'an not enough? Quran says:

* No vision (physical or spiritual) can see Allah.

* We showed him Our signs

What else do you need?



Where is their prove other than those bogus ahadith as against clear verses of the Quran?! Allah is INFINITE in His Essence and attributes. He only manifest to us via His attributes which our LIMITED/FINITE physical, philosophical and spiritual understanding cannot even do justice to.

How do you want to describe the Indescribable, the Infinite?

Nabi saw NOTHING of the Essence of Allah. What he saw and experienced were "SIGNS OF ALLAH."




"Seeing" here means "perception".

# Again those bogus hadiths talk literary to the extent that they liken Allah to something. Those ahadith talk Kufr.

I have not even quoted any specific hadith at all. So that no concern me and every Muslim knows Allah is infinite and can not be likened to anything.

What's shia's discriptions of how "At-tahiyat" came about?.

And what's "perception' that you said and "seeing" that I said?. Any difference?

ikupakuti:


#This your allegory of light/glory that the mountain saw & felt where did you get it from ? Cos the Quran didnt mention it o ? You mean the light was so powerful to reduce a mountain to powder & knock MUSA out but miraclously MUSA didnt go blind what a light ?

ikupakuti:


#You asked me to be familiar with our tafsir, if it was about that, I would have quoted them for you right from the begining, God didnt claim his light manifested but himself, I still asked where did the idea of light came from since you & SUNNI mufassiruna claimed its light, but then maybe I‘ll look for someone else to help me answer that.

# May Allah forgive my errors and make me more familiar with His noble words. I was actually talking nonsense by saying Sunni tafasir interpreted "glory of Allah" that manifested upon the mountain as "Light". Quran itself said so.

# Surah al-Baqarah: 55


And remember when you said, ‘O people of Musa, We shall never believe in you until we see Allah plainly.’ But you were seized with a THUNDERBOLT while you were looking. Then We raised you up after death so that you might be grateful.


# Surah an-Nisa: 153:

The People of the Scripture ask you (O Muhammad)
to cause a book to descend upon them from Heaven. Indeed, they asked Musa for even greater than that when they said, ‘Show us Allah in public,’ but they were struck with thunder and lightening for their wickedness.

Again, try to rationalize this with 2 examples I had provided earlier:

# Light rays of high intensity entering your eyes

# Getting closer to the sun rays

^^
You are mixing this up. The deafen sound that seized those people is different from the manifestation of God upon the rock. God said a deafen sound seized them not that he manifested to them, that vs is clear enough pls dont twist it. There is nothing to rationalise here.

The same deafen sound God used to destroy ‘AAD & SAMUD which he also warned the people of makkah to beware of Q41:13.

AlBaqir:


Thanks brother for quoting this. I was searching for it since. In Munajat shabaniyah, we pray:


"My Lord, grant me complete severance of my relations
with everything else and total submission to You.
Enlighten the eyes of our hearts with the light of their
looking at You to the extent that they penetrate the
veils of light and reach the Source of Grandeur, and let
our souls get suspended by the glory of Your sanctity
(The Invocation of Sha'baniyah)

# Those are words of arif (spiritual wayfarer) which a Mufassir, philosopher, etc might interpret literarily.

But albaqir this is exactly what we talking about! So, whats all the arguement about?

Have you also gotten to see the God you worship like IMAM ALI said ?

Empiree:
I have not even quoted any specific hadith at all. So that no concern me and every Muslim knows Allah is infinite and can not be likened to anything.

What's shia's discriptions of how "At-tahiyat" came about?.

And what's "perception' that you said and "seeing" that I said?. Any difference?

# Am sorry not every Muslim believe in the infinite nature of Allah. In reality, majority do not. Whoever believe in those bogus ahadith absolutely do not believe in the Infinite nature of Allah. Ahadith clearly states:

* Nabi was asked, "Did you saw your Lord?" And he said, "Yes, I saw Him, He was Nur (light)"

* Nabi was reported to have said, "I saw my Lord in a dream like a young man with curly hair"

* "We were sitting with the Messenger of Allah when he
looked at the full moon and observed, ‘You shall see your
Lord as you are seeing this moon, and you will not be
harmed by seeing Him.’

* Hadith says, " we shall see Allah on the day of Judgement "

* A contradictory hadith says, "Believers shall see Allah when they enter paradise" And that a gathering will be arranged for them (once in a week, on Fridays) specifically from seeing Allah.

All these and more are the Aqeedah of Ahlu Sunnah wal Jama'ah. So, tell me how every Muslim believed in an INFINITE GOD when there were descriptions for Him, when He will be seen just like we see moon without difficulty?!

# Are you guys not reflecting on Allah's word at all? NO VISION CAN GRASP HIM.... Unfortunately, you see people (from the past till present) erroneously interpreting, "...they shall be looking at their Lord" literarily under the influence of those ahadith. Like I said earlier, even a market Yoruba woman will NEVER interpret, "mo nwo OJU OLOHUN" as literarily looking at the Lord rather her interpretation and understanding is "I'm expecting Allah's favour".

NB: Again, the above has nothing to do with Shia ideology. These are facts from the Qur'an itself. Quran says repeatedly in a surah: " We have revealed this Quran simple and easy to understand, will you reflect?"


# About at-Tahiyat, Shia do not have that Sunni associated story attached to it.

# "Seeing" and "Perception". I want to triply sure you do not literarily meant "seeing as we see the moon without difficulty".

ikupakuti:


But albaqir this is exactly what we talking about! So, whats all the arguement about?

# The argument is that you firmly believe in bogus ahadith that literarily confirm seeing Allah. See my above reply to Empiree

ikupakuti:


Have you also gotten to see the God you worship like IMAM ALI said ?

Who am I compare to Imam Ali, alaih salam?

# For those who are interested in learning on spirituality, Irfan (spiritual journey), here's a book Light within me. Yes it is written by three Shi'a ulama. Spirituality has nothing to do with "shia vs Sunni" on this or that. Interestingly, every single gnostic of every age and century was discussed in the book (including Sheik Abdul-Qadir al-Gilani), their beliefs and method of Irfan.

You can download the PDF here:
https://www.al-islam.org/light-within-me-mutahhari-tabatabai-khomeini

AlBaqir:


# Please do not even try to change the gear or shift the goal post here. You have blatantly mock my little explanation that where did I got my analogy from?

what explanation of yours that aligned with whats up there did I mock ? Coz you are begining to confuse me o .

# Just like you clearly state, "ALL SAHABAH were righteous", and you changed gear when I questioned such rationality.

Pls show me where I CLEARLY stated that, I‘m waiting

Who am I compare to Imam Ali, alaih salam?

It does not mean you are comparing yourself to him. He never claimed such privilege was exclusive to him, did he ? Or do you think you too cannot be granted such benefit by God ?