geoworldedu:

should we do it here on nairaland?

I would love to see it done here too!!

Hanabian:

I would love to see it done here too!!

I have done one here before. All the nonsense dem gods fell my hands see the link below:

https://www.nairaland.com/3678101/let-god-answers-fire-god

We can have the showdown in about 12 months time because I need to be in a righteous state and in fasting and need to be sure or wat I am doing.... if I cannot do it I will call u another man of God for the show down.... not everyone can do it.

But for now don't u believe in Miracles?

Who performs all the Miracles u have been seeing?

Hanabian:

Sister,
I am saying you should look at the instances I gave and see if those people actually had a choice or were preordained to do the acts they did.
Now,if they were preordained to do the act,where then does the human freewill exist?

Ok....but see that's where the issue lies.
The only thing pre-ordained about a human is 1.) the sex, 2.) the race, ethnicity, and 3.) the family born into.
On your example, the child was given money....while the two "types" of toys he could choose from were chosen....he still was allowed to choose "1" of them. No one said that he must choose X-box or Sega.
I totally get what you're saying, but it isn't always wise to try to use a secular illustration to explain something spiritual (although sometimes it works).
Cause see you've forgotten about the role that sin has played in the plan of Salvation.
On the subject of being predestination, just because God knows the future and what people will choose, doesn't mean that He has taken away their "right" to do so.
He has called "all" to salvation....but "all" will notchoose Him.
He knows who will choose Him or not.
All have the choice....the freedom to decide if they want Him.

Why can't I even fly if I have Freewill, why Must foolish Yahweh place restrictions in terms of freewill expression

Ngo40:


Ok....but see that's where the issue lies.
The only thing pre-ordained about a human is 1.) the sex, 2.) the race, ethnicity, and 3.) the family born into.
On your example, the child was given money....while the two "types" of toys he could choose from were chosen....he still was allowed to choose "1" of them. No one said that he must choose X-box or Sega.
I totally get what you're saying, but it isn't always wise to try to use a secular illustration to explain something spiritual (although sometimes it works).
Cause see you've forgotten about the role that sin has played in the plan of Salvation.

On the subject of being predestination, just because God knows the future and what people will choose, doesn't mean that He has taken away their "right" to do so.

He has called "all" to salvation....but "all" will not choose Him.
He knows who will choose Him or not.
All have the choice....the freedom to decide if they want Him.

Sister,your reply shows that you are not grasping the crux of the matter.
At first bolded, who created sin in the first instance? Did man create sin or did sin magically appear from thin air? After answering that,now ask yourself why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin(as we are told) when they didn't know their left from their right?And yet use same to punish people who had no knowledge of the sin in the first place.
Now, a bit background. Remember that Adam and Eve were made(bible) not given birth to,so in all ramifications, it is totally safe to say they never knew what they were doing,they were children.Now God is all knowing, he has known that Adam and Eve were going to sin before they even did it(omniscient). But did he do anything about it? As someone who sees into the future,he would have seen all the possible ways to scenario would have gone right? But did he do anything about it?
Another fundamental question is,why even put the tree there in the first place? Prevention they say is better than cure right? Will you as a person allow something to happen to your child when you have every resources within your reach to protect him from harm? I could continue to ask on and on and on,but at the end,looking at all what I said objectively solely rests on you!

@second bolded,the argument is that he preordained them to act that way,not just knowing what they will choose! Look at the OP and Jer 1:5.

@third bolded,Do all really have the choice in light with the facts stated above? Did Jeremiah, Pharaoh,all the innocent Egyptian kids have a say too in the matter?

Ngo40:

He has called "all" to salvation....but "all" will notchoose Him.
He knows who will choose Him or not.
All have the choice....the freedom to decide if they want Him.

The Bible says in Acts that when the Word was preached AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED. Just stop these free will argument - there is freewill but it is bound within a limited range - somethings hv already been decided...

Obalende:


The Bible says in Acts that when the Word was preached AS MANY AS WERE APPOINTED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED. Just stop these free will argument - there is freewill but it is bound within a limited range - somethings hv already been decided...

As many as were "appointed" meaning those that "chose" to believe in eternal life received it.
"Limited range"....such as? "Some things have already been decided"....such as?
Brother....did you mean to "pm" ....much earlier or was that a mistake?
Did you have a question that you wanted further explanation on?

Hanabian:

Sister,your reply shows that you are not grasping the crux of the matter.
At first bolded, who created sin in the first instance? Did man create sin or did sin magically appear from thin air? After answering that,now ask yourself why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin(as we are told) when they didn't know their left from their right?And yet use same to punish people who had no knowledge of the sin in the first place.
Now, a bit background. Remember that Adam and Eve were made(bible) not given birth to,so in all ramifications, it is totally safe to say they never knew what they were doing,they were children.Now God is all knowing, he has known that Adam and Eve were going to sin before they even did it(omniscient). But did he do anything about it? As someone who sees into the future,he would have seen all the possible ways to scenario would have gone right? But did he do anything about it?
Another fundamental question is,why even put the tree there in the first place? Prevention they say is better than cure right? Will you as a person allow something to happen to your child when you have every resources within your reach to protect him from harm? I could continue to ask on and on and on,but at the end,looking at all what I said objectively solely rests on you!

@second bolded,the argument is that he preordained them to act that way,not just knowing what they will choose! Look at the OP and Jer 1:5.

@third bolded,Do all really have the choice in light with the facts stated above? Did Jeremiah, Pharaoh,all the innocent Egyptian kids have a say too in the matter?

Brother,
I absolutely grasp the crux of the matter. But since you have chosen to close your mind to....God's plan of salvation (in light of sin)....then it becomes impossible for us to agree.
You don't believe in God.....or the Bible....i take it.
You don't possess faith....or desire to pray for understanding on the things that can clearly be understood....so that leaves nothing but confusion.
Every question cannot be answered through a "finite" mind. One can't know all of the reasons "why" the tree was there or why death occurs to innocent folks...except for sin.
Pharoah hardened his own heart through repeated disbelief (so God allowed it- )...sometimes you have to go past a surface level understanding of a scripture passage.
My apologies for not having used the scriptures....i knew some of the scriptures you were speaking about, but others may have not.
Next time....they will be added.
Now....I think I will end this discussion...cause I don't do long debates over the Word. If you are sincerely searching for truth, then I do want you to get an understanding through the Holy Spirit one day

obinna58:
Why can't I even fly if I have Freewill, why Must foolish Yahweh place restrictions in terms of freewill expression

Because brother Obi,
You were created to "walk" not "fly".
You were preordained to be a human....not animal.
You do have a choice on whether you want to get up and use your ability to walk though.
You are exercising your "freewill" right now....calling names as a form of expression.

Hanabian:
> Jeremiah > Chapter 1 > Verse 5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart..."

The case of freewill is the ultimate failure of the religious propagandas. Its funny how a being that claims you have a free will also punishes you for exercising your freewill.
This is a case of giving money to a child and telling him or her to buy a Nintendo or Xbox.In the child's mind,he thinks he has a choice in the matter,but doesn't know his choice has already being decided for him.
Wake up people, the religious Gods are myths and only powerful in the pages of fictional books.
This is my first topic and post on this site,and I am here to wake a lot of people up from their slumber.

Its obvious your understanding is little.

In Nigeria's constitution, there is a fundermental right that we all have.
1. Freedom of Speech/Expression
2. Freedom of Association
3. Freedom of Movement etc

Now, are you protected by the law when you
i. Associate with Armed Robbers?
ii. Attempt to move yourself into GTBanks vault?

Freewill and free choice just as your fundermental rights exist with CONSEQUENCES.

Ngo40:


Because brother Obi,
You were created to "walk" not "fly".
You were preordained to be a human....not animal.
You do have a choice on whether you want to get up and use your ability to walk though.
You are exercising your "freewill" right now....calling names as a form of expression.

How do you know walking is the best option for human, Ofcurse Yahweh Knows there are lot more freewill he could have allowed human to express instead of favouring evil interms of freewill expression, and yet He Condemned evil
Faults of Yahweh is uncountable if only u could use the brain.

Obalende:


we were given a sinful nature; the Bible says the heart of man is wicked - all our freewill choices will therefore be wicked.
So why blame us when we were born that way?

(yawns).

Omo, these people no go kill us. It wasn't so from the beginning.

Man was created perfect!

Obalende:


You have written a very wicked piece. Listen to me: God created a devil designated as a tempter, God also created demons to do evil biddings of entrapping us in sin, gave us sinful natures - then how is it my choice that i am entrapped in sin - these powers are too strong for man or woman! Its intellectually lazy to just say we are chosing to remain in sin - address this issue i have just raised if you could...

I just did.

Your whole point lies in ignoring the beginning. Which is not right.

Obalende:


ok then thanks.
To all others reading this for centuries Christianity has heaped blame on mankind and I think this is undeserved.... It is God who ordains. Why blame us after ordaining.

What exactly do you mean by "it is God who ordains" ?

I just told you "man was created perfect!". Put that into consideration.

shadeyinka:


Its obvious your understanding is little.

In Nigeria's constitution, there is a fundermental right that we all have.
1. Freedom of Speech/Expression
2. Freedom of Association
3. Freedom of Movement etc

Now, are you protected by the law when you
i. Associate with Armed Robbers?
ii. Attempt to move yourself into GTBanks vault?

Freewill and free choice just as your fundermental rights exist with CONSEQUENCES.

You Now saying God created freewill, controls everything we do And then created consequences for what he made us to do, Hehehehe yet kind and merciful

Obalende:

Because we are mere objects of war to be cast to hell mostly due to no fault of our own and be blamed for it... Salvation of Christ is not perfect, if it were, it would have delivered us from the power of sin; christianity is very complicated and full of threats. i dont expect u to have all the answers because you are not God. but thanks at least for listening.

Salvation of Christ is perfect and it HAS saved all that have in Him from the power of sin.

Point out those threats and complications.

[quote author=Hanabian post=58284666]
Sister,your reply shows that you are not grasping the crux of the matter.
At first bolded, who created sin in the first instance? Did man create sin or did sin magically appear from thin air? After answering that,now ask yourself why did God allow Adam and Eve to sin(as we are told) when they didn't know their left from their right?And yet use same to punish people who had no knowledge of the sin in the first place.
Now, a bit background. Remember that Adam and Eve were made(bible) not given birth to,so in all ramifications, it is totally safe to say they never knew what they were doing,they were children.Now God is all knowing, he has known that Adam and Eve were going to sin before they even did it(omniscient). But did he do anything about it? As someone who sees into the future,he would have seen all the possible ways to scenario would have gone right? But did he do anything about it?
Another fundamental question is,why even put the tree there in the first place?

You think God created sin? Ehya, no wonder the misconceptions.

God did NOT creat sin.

Genesis 1:31 "and God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. . ."

Sin originated from misusage of FREEWILL. A freewill being chose evil over good. That is how sin originated. God didn't create it.

"life and death I set before you this day. . .but I counsel you to choose LIFE"

Good - Evil, Life - Death, Righteousness - Unrighteousness, Holy - Unholy etc are opposite to each other.

It's either you're doing the one or the other. There's no option in-between.

@Hanabian

Tell us the Bible verse that supports you on "God knew they were going to sin even before He created them"

obinna58:
Why can't I even fly if I have Freewill, why Must foolish Yahweh place restrictions in terms of freewill expression

Oh!! Na flying dey hungry you?

Well, that's NOT in context of our discussion. We were NOT designed to fly.

But sha, if you like to fly so much, you fit go meet dibia make them turn you to bird.

obinna58:


How do you know walking is the best option for human, Ofcurse Yahweh Knows there are lot more freewill he could have allowed human to express instead of favouring evil interms of freewill expression, and yet He Condemned evil
Faults of Yahweh is uncountable if only u could use the brain.

"How do I know walking is the best option for a human....?"
Come on brother....are you really serious? Like really? Lol....
You know I don't believe that "you" even believe half of the things you write.....lol....
I'm not gonna even try and answer this...lol.
I don't quite understand your last few sentences...

Ngo40:



Brother,
I absolutely grasp the crux of the matter. But since you have chosen to close your mind to....God's plan of salvation (in light of sin)....then it becomes impossible for us to agree.
You don't believe in God.....or the Bible....i take it.
You don't possess faith....or desire to pray for understanding on the things that can clearly be understood....so that leaves nothing but confusion.
Every question cannot be answered through a "finite" mind. One can't know all of the reasons "why" the tree was there or why death occurs to innocent folks...except for sin.
Pharoah hardened his own heart through repeated disbelief (so God allowed it- )...sometimes you have to go past a surface level understanding of a scripture passage.
My apologies for not having used the scriptures....i knew some of the scriptures you were speaking about, but others may have not.
Next time....they will be added.
Now....I think I will end this discussion...cause I don't do long debates over the Word. If you are sincerely searching for truth, then I do want you to get an understanding through the Holy Spirit one day

In law,what you just did is called resorting to the usual default "omnibus clause".
In this case,you have decided to resort to the usual default " led by the Holy spirit" talk!
Not to disrespect, but that's a lame proposition dear.It just shows you don't even understand and you can't explain what you don't understand!!

shadeyinka:


Its obvious your understanding is little.

In Nigeria's constitution, there is a fundermental right that we all have.
1. Freedom of Speech/Expression
2. Freedom of Association
3. Freedom of Movement etc

Now, are you protected by the law when you
i. Associate with Armed Robbers?
ii. Attempt to move yourself into GTBanks vault?

Freewill and free choice just as your fundermental rights exist with CONSEQUENCES.

The difference between your illustrations and the biblical one is that the ones in your examples is calculated to hurt another. God or no God,every person senses hurt.
However, how does eating a fruit amount to an eternity of punishment for a child?

iSpirit1:
You think God created sin? Ehya, no wonder the misconceptions.

God did NOT creat sin.

Genesis 1:31 "and God saw every thing that He had made, and, behold, it was VERY GOOD. . ."

Sin originated from misusage of FREEWILL. A freewill being chose evil over good. That is how sin originated. God didn't create it.

"life and death I set before you this day. . .but I counsel you to choose LIFE"

Good - Evil, Life - Death, Righteousness - Unrighteousness, Holy - Unholy etc are opposite to each other.

It's either you're doing the one or the other. There's no option in-between.

I thought you were hinting on not forgetting the actual genesis of sin?
Who tempted Adam añd Eve?
Did God know or not know the temptation will occur?
Who created the person that tempted Adam and Eve?
Did God not know how treacherous the person that tempted Adam and Eve is?
Did God do anything about it?
Now,when answering the above questions, bear in mind that God is "all knowing and Omniscient (everywhere)".

iSpirit1:
@Hanabian

Tell us the Bible verse that supports you on "God knew they were going to sin even before He created them"

-Same way in Jer 1:5
-Same way he preordained the coming of Jesus
-Same way he preordained all the droughts in the bible.
-Same way he always knew Israel will go on exile.

Ngo40:


"How do I know walking is the best option for a human....?"
Come on brother....are you really serious? Like really? Lol....
You know I don't believe that "you" even believe half of the things you write.....lol....
I'm not gonna even try and answer this...lol.
I don't quite understand your last few sentences...

I ll take it that u don't understand

obinna58:

You Now saying God created freewill, controls everything we do And then created consequences for what he made us to do, Hehehehe yet kind and merciful

Where did I say God controls everything we do?

God doesn't control what we do. The is the purpose of free will is for man to choose his direction within any constraint je finds himself. He also has been warned to choose wisely either to align yourself with Gods will or go contrary.

Its simple:
Its like your Father gave you a Porsche Car with a speedometer that maxes at 400 km/h with an instruction for you not to exceed 120km/h.

Yes, you have a free will either to stay within the speed limit or not, but don't also forget that there may be a consequence for over speeding which may involve you accidentally killing someone else, getting maimed etc.

Can we blame your father for giving you a Porsche rather than a Tractor as a means of transportation?

Hanabian:

The difference between your illustrations and the biblical one is that the ones in your examples is calculated to hurt another.

I don't think so dear. What if I broke into Gtbank vault only to pass a weekend there? What if my association with Armed robbers is that I give them protection?
In both examples I hurt no one. Actually in the second case, I am performing a "humanitarian" action by protecting some human beings.

Hanabian:

God or no God,every person senses hurt.
However, how does eating a fruit amount to an eternity of punishment for a child?

It isn't about fruit. The fruit is just a symbol for the real implication or let's say the key to activate a certain process.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents a choice to become totally INDEPENDENT of God (Why? You know Everything). The Tree of Life represents a SEAL of state (It seals your decision for eternity).

Death: Means Disconnection

God planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and He gave an instruction to Adam not to Eat else he would die (be disconnected from Him).

Of course, Independence is attractive. You give no account to anyone and you will be like God etc but it has consequences. If you had created yourself, there would have been no problem. But the problem is that God created you for His own enjoyment.

God created Free beings who will Love and Serve Him freely and willingly. The Trees are symbols for Examination for Gods selection.

If a man chooses NOT to be subject to God, what do you think God should do about it?

If God created man, it is impossible for man to manifest a trait or quality that God did not put in him. So why blame man.

shadeyinka:


I don't think so dear. What if I broke into Gtbank vault only to pass a weekend there? What if my association with Armed robbers is that I give them protection?
In both examples I hurt no one. Actually in the second case, I am performing a "humanitarian" action by protecting some human beings.



It isn't about fruit. The fruit is just a symbol for the real implication or let's say the key to activate a certain process.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil represents a choice to become totally INDEPENDENT of God (Why? You know Everything). The Tree of Life represents a SEAL of state (It seals your decision for eternity).

Death: Means Disconnection

God planted the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and He gave an instruction to Adam not to Eat else he would die (be disconnected from Him).

Of course, Independence is attractive. You give no account to anyone and you will be like God etc but it has consequences. If you had created yourself, there would have been no problem. But the problem is that God created you for His own enjoyment.

God created Free beings who will Love and Serve Him freely and willingly. The Trees are symbols for Examination for Gods selection.

If a man chooses NOT to be subject to God, what do you think God should do about it?

I will summarize your opinion with one question. Did God know that Adam will do what he did or did he not know?