4kings:

I dont have that believe, haba.

i just wanted to know why he thinks there are manmade.

All religion are man made.

Take a good look at all the world religions, they all had a founder (a human).

GoodMuyis:


User Mail Supermod from Homepage just above the bottom adverts

Okay thank you for the help.

JackBizzle:





Ask why I said that the gods are primitive instead.

Jackfizzle, always looking for a way to dodge proper discussions.

You fizzle out just when it's getting interesting.

spacetacular:
Can you not find a clear divide between God and Religion?

Any belief in God is a religious belief, so there cannot be any dividing line.

Also, I fail to understand how an atheist could be religious. Could you share some real life examples of religious atheists with us?

spacetacular:

As an atheist what do you know about THE DIVINE? and do you have any pointers to what makes Religion political and cultural because the last time I checked, religion has absolutely no scholarly consensus over it.

So you cannot tell that religion is in fact a cultural construct and culture is born out of political structure of a particular people. One look at every religion in the world there is always an underlying culture behind the theme and motif. islam, Hinduism, judaism, christianity, Buddhism.

I am sorry but you have much to learn if such simple truths elude you

Again I ask, what is the purpose of talking about it besides scepticism or a deliberate attempt not to understand it?

There are many reasons to discuss any given matter and this holds true for any person that engages in such a discussion. I resent gambling, i am free to talk about gambling either as a way to communicate my opinions about gambling or an attempt to bring others to the light of the implications of gambling.

One is free to discuss religion due to reasons independent of the one options you have given above and Oh i am particularly glad about the "skepticism reason" isn't that enough reason to discuss religion?

We are not talking about politics but RELIGION. what is your reason for discussing it?

oh it is simple i will list it for you

1. because i want to
2. because i can
3. because it is a public matter and i am part of the public
4. because i am skeptical about religious ideas and postulations (as we should be about almost every idea)
5. because it is fun
6. because it infringes on day to day activities around me, claws into the politics of the day and constitutes part of the cultural fabric of the society i am in.

Do you want more?

wait you can add one more to it.
7. because i like to

Again this is not about politics. Focus on religion please.

If you cannot grasp the point of a simple analogy, what exactly am i doing with you?

Have you ever tried dissecting religion with a religious atheist? If you have done this, have you done so in an attempt to understand since its one atheist to another or you also did so as scepticism?

Oh yes i very much have and i believe that atheist goes by the name folklaze or something here on nairaland.

And yes too both of your guesses are part of my numerous reasons for engaging

You kept on repeating the same thing on every line and this is not an exception.

I am sure you didn't

The question should be, should religion be the paramount concern of an atheist since even you have been able to identify that God exists outside religion and that one can be religious without God and believe in God without being religious.

The famous replying a question with another question - the points keeps going low.

An atheist has every right to chose any matter he wants to hold paramount in his life since the label "atheist" is not the only that defines any person who is one, he may also be a democrat or maybe a vegetarian, or homophobic or ant-religious.

Anyone can chose a matter that they find worthy of being an optimum priority in their lives.

I can also reverse that question: Why should the paramount concern of an atheist be of any paramount concern to you?

I am sure you won't answer that as the first question also went unanswered but i will keep the faith

Religion and god, they are both figment of someone's imagination. If someone wants to use that imagination to make rules that'll affect my well being, hell yeah I would speak out.

Now, concerning the issue of first cause, no one has been able to prove beyond every reasonable doubt that the universe started to exist. For all we know, it could have been eternal.

So, if someone can prove to me that the universe indeed has a beginning, then maybe I might take the concept of "first cause" seriously.

CatfishBilly:
Religion and god, they are both figment of someone's imagination. If someone wants to use that imagination to make rules that'll affect my well being, hell yeah I would speak out.

Now, concerning the issue of first cause, no one has been able to prove beyond every reasonable doubt that the universe started to exist. For all we know, it could have been eternal.

So, if someone can prove to me that the universe indeed has a beginning, then maybe I might take the concept of "first cause" seriously.

The universe is not eternal
It has a beginning
Its age has even been estimated.

felixomor:


The universe is not eternal
It has a beginning
Its age has even been estimated.

When did the universe begin? Please don't say the big bang.

felixomor:


The universe is not eternal
It has a beginning
Its age has even been estimated.

I don't suppose you have somehow managed to find a unified theory that brings Quantum mechanics and relativity together?

Because if you haven't, scientific cosmology have not arrived at a conclusive answer on the universe having a beginning or an end, The big bang cosmological model does not preclude an eternal universe.

Perhaps you'd want me to clear you up on that?

I am always happy to teach the tiny science i know especially astronomical physics and cosmology

CatfishBilly:

When did the universe begin? Please don't say the big bang.

hahahahahahahahahahahaha this will be interesting

author=johnydon22 post=58993468]

So you cannot tell that religion is in fact a cultural construct and culture is born out of political structure of a particular people. One look at every religion in the world there is always an underlying culture behind the theme and motif. islam, Hinduism, judaism, christianity, Buddhism.

I am sorry but you have much to learn if such simple truths elude you

Religion exists outside culture. So which came first? Culture or religion?

There are many reasons to discuss any given matter and this holds true for any person that engages in such a discussion. I resent gambling, i am free to talk about gambling either as a way to communicate my opinions about gambling or an attempt to bring others to the light of the implications of gambling.

One is free to discuss religion due to reasons independent of the one options you have given above and Oh i am particularly glad about the "skepticism reason" isn't that enough reason to discuss religion?



oh it is simple i will list it for you

1. because i want to
2. because i can
3. because it is a public matter and i am part of the public
4. because i am skeptical about religious ideas and postulations (as we should be about almost every idea)
5. because it is fun
6. because it infringes on day to day activities around me, claws into the politics of the day and constitutes part of the cultural fabric of the society i am in.

Do you want more?

wait you can add one more to it.
7. because i like to

The only plausible reason you obviously have is number 5 because it sticks out like a sore thumb.


If you cannot grasp the point of a simple analogy, what exactly am i doing with you?

Use analogies that match this discussion. Politics holds a different origin and purpose from Religion.

Oh yes i very much have and i believe that atheist goes by the name folklaze or something here on nairaland.

And yes too both of your guesses are part of my numerous reasons for engaging



I am sure you didn't

The famous replying a question with another question - the points keeps going low.

You hold no points so trying to hammer down my position seems to be your only way.

An atheist has every right to chose any matter he wants to hold paramount in his life since the label "atheist" is not the only that defines any person who is one, he may also be a democrat or maybe a vegetarian, or homophobic or ant-religious.

Then which are you?

Anyone can chose a matter that they find worthy of being an optimum priority in their lives.

So Religion is your utmost priority? How so? Is the entire world suddenly too small to see other problems staring you in the face which are real?

I can also reverse that question: Why should the paramount concern of an atheist be of any paramount concern to you?

It's not my concern. Just holding a conversation and trying to get you to see the ridiculousness of your position and so called paramount concern.

I am sure you won't answer that as the first question also went unanswered but i will keep the faith

johnydon22:


I don't suppose you have somehow managed to find a unified theory that brings Quantum mechanics and relativity together?

Because if you haven't, scientific cosmology have not arrived at a conclusive answer on the universe having a beginning or an end, The big bang cosmological model does not preclude an eternal universe.

Perhaps you'd want me to clear you up on that?

I am always happy to teach the tiny science i know especially astronomical physics and cosmology

So who estimated the age of the universe?
Footballers?

CatfishBilly:

When did the universe begin? Please don't say the big bang.

Google the age of the universe
And study it.

because your mind is already bent on arguing against evidence. By telling me what and what not to say.

felixomor:


Google the age of the universe
And study it.

because your mind is already bent on arguing against evidence. By telling me what and what not to say.

Okay, good, you don't know when the universe began then. Cos you were going to say the big bang and it doesn't preclude an eternal universe, just wanted to let you know that.
Evidence my foot.


As for the age of the universe, just study the big bang theory.

CatfishBilly:

Okay, good, you don't know when the universe began then. Cos you were going to say the big bang and it doesn't preclude an eternal universe, just wanted to let you know that.
Evidence my foot.


As for the age of the universe, just study the big bang theory.

You haven't said anything.
Scientists say the universe has a beginning and an age.

But unfortunately, because it bursts your bubble,
You want to argue.
You start propounding your own theories.

felixomor:


You haven't said anything.
Scientists say the universe has a beginning and an age.

But unfortunately, because it bursts your bubble,
You want to argue.
You start propounding your own theories.

In his book, A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking stated it clearly that

As far as we are concerned, events before the big bang can have no consequences, so they should not form part of a scientific model of the universe. We should therefore cut them out of the model and say that time had a beginning at the big bang”

It has also been proven that there was "time" before the Planck's epoch.
So, this present version of our universe might have a "beginning", but it was existing in another form before it started expanding.

CatfishBilly:

In his book, A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking stated it clearly that

It has also been proven that there was "time" before the Planck's epoch.
So, this present version of our universe might have a "beginning", but it was existing in another form before it started expanding.

No it wasnt. There is no evidence for that

Even if u are correct,
And you will even still end up deadlocking yourself
With the question;
What gave rise to the previous universe?

Secondly,
The cabon dating age for the components of this universe would all be wrong and dating as a whole will be wrong, if what you are saying is correct.....

You see,
Its either you loose big or loose small.

johnydon22:


Anybody can employ religious skepticism, so why can't the atheists also do same?

Or being atheists makes them not qualified to also employ religious skepticism or have opinions about matters of public concern like religion?

Atheist or not, people are free to talk or discuss religion so what exactly is the point here?

My point is that the focus here has been on religion when its supposed to be on God . Atheists can be in religion and there are people who are without religion who still believe in God

You shouldn't be discussing about Psalm 3 :1 with a theist , you should be talking about God and Cosmology and why you reject deification .

CatfishBilly:

So, this present version of our universe might have a "beginning", but it was existing in another form before it started expanding.

Taaa !

Who told you that ? What gallimaufry of pseudo-science is this ?

CatfishBilly:

Okay, good, you don't know when the universe began then. Cos you were going to say the big bang and it doesn't preclude an eternal universe, just wanted to let you know that.
Evidence my foot.


As for the age of the universe, just study the big bang theory.

1. Stop talking of an eternal universe if you cannot produce scientific evidence that the universe is one

2. Here is Stephen Hawking's lecture on why there is no evidence for an eternal universe

www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html

3. How does an eternal universe preclude the existence of God ?

Seun:

Religion is "the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods."(Google) This makes atheism a rejection of religion. We reject "the belief in and worship of ... God" because we have not been convinced that any God exists. Deists reject organized religion but their belief in the undetectable God is essentially a personal religion.

1. Which superhuman is worshiped in religions like Unitarian Universalism , Confucianism , Jainism, Buddhism , Raelism ?

2. Atheists have been part of the aforementioned since atheism is the rejection of the deification of an entity . E,g Steve Jobs was atheist Buddhist , Sir Tim Berners-Lee is a religious atheist who is part of Unitarian Universalism

3. The deists totally reject religion (revealed theology) . Revealed theology brings about theistic religions and this is what the deists reject .They focus on natural theology .

4. There are atheists who acknowledge the existence of the First Cause but reject its deification

5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism_and_religion

6. There are occult groups that atheists are part of . Eg LaVeyan Satanism - which is totally atheistic . There are also atheist witches in Wicca and Chaos magic
https://www.quora.com/How-should-I-practice-witchcraft-being-an-atheist

Please research on these things before putting forward a rebuttal . Discard that erroneous belief that atheism rejects religion because there are atheists who are in religion , witchcraft , occultism and deism is without religion .

CoolUsername:


That's false, that is not what atheists are saying.

https://www.nairaland.com/3944605/oh-atheists-me-out-quandary

Speaking for myself, a God has to be

1. Omnipotent/omniscient: If not, it could just be a hyper-advanced alien species.

There are theists who don't even believe that God is omnipotent or omniscient .

2. Conscious: If not, it is indistinguishable from a natural law.

Consciousness is immaterial .

3. The First Cause: If not, it is either a product of natural laws or requires an entity which would be more qualified for the role.

There are theists who reject the First Cause and there are atheists who acknowledge the existence of the First Cause but reject its deification .

All this is based on the baseless assumption that non-existence is the default position of reality.

Which reality ? Everyone has his own reality . Stop forcefully projecting your reality on others , thats bigotry .

JackBizzle:





Ask why I said that the gods are primitive instead.

Atheism is primitive . Do you know atheism began 500 years before Christianity and 1,200 years before Islam ?

cc : spacetacular

obinna58:
Religion serves as means used in order manipulate humanity That's why I reject it

You just spoke my mind.

KingEbukasBlog:


Nonsense

The deists reject the bible and other religious books (revealed theology ) and they still acknowledge the existence of God . The deists rely on logic , reason , observation , science to support the existence of God (natural theology)

Because deism has the potential to connect with every human being because every human being possesses God-given reason.This God-given reason,which is so dear and key to deism is the natural state of humanity.


Mind you,there are numerous gods out there,Krishna is a god to some,Odin is also a god to some people.We(deists) acknowledged the existence of a universal creative force greater than that demonstrated by mankind,supported by personal observation of laws and designs in nature and the universe,perpetuated and validated by the innate ability of human reason coupled with the rejection of claims made by individuals and organized religions of having received special divine revelation.


One key difference between deism and the "revealed" religions is that deists don't believe faith is required to believe in God.This quote from Voltaire sums it up,what is faith?is it to believe that which is evident?No.It is perfectly evident to my mind that there exists a necessary, eternal, intelligent and supreme being.This is no matter of faith but of reason.

KingEbukasBlog:
Why are atheists here discussing the bible , religious beliefs , religious doctrine when it has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of God . The deists who acknowledge the existence of God reject religious beliefs and question religious authority .

Atheism is not the rejection of religion . There are religious atheists . So can an atheist explain the obsession with religious skepticism when it has nothing to do with the existence of God ?

Anybody is free to discuss anything. Even the bible discussed atheists. Life is free for all.

spacetacular:


Jackfizzle, always looking for a way to dodge proper discussions.

You fizzle out just when it's getting interesting.

You are the one that dodged.

I clearly stated that the gods are primitive.

Instead of asking for my reasons for the statement, you went ahead to ask me to explain a modern God..


Do you realise how funny and dubious that is? So I, an atheist, have to create a new God in order to criticise your God.

KingEbukasBlog:
Why are atheists here discussing the bible , religious beliefs , religious doctrine when it has absolutely nothing to do with the existence of God . The deists who acknowledge the existence of God reject religious beliefs and question religious authority . Atheism is not the rejection of religion . There are religious atheists . So can an atheist explain the obsession with religious skepticism when it has nothing to do with the existence of God ?

Why shouldn't atheists discuss religion? Being a deist myself, I can discuss anything from religion to politics. I am not understanding your point. I personally think anyone should be free to discuss what they like.

If we are to go into theology, we can see that God is usually tied to religion. Not always but most of the time. So, I think the atheist can discuss religion. I am left wondering what the point of this thread was.

felixomor:


So who estimated the age of the universe?
Footballers?

Lol I ever so politely asked if I am to teach you a little, if you want to learn you have to come down your high horse and try to listen.

I knew that's what you would come up with "Big Bang" which is almost certainly a fact. But if you were someone humble and open intellectually you would have opted to learn the rest about the model.

Would you like to learn?

KingEbukasBlog:


My point is that the focus here has been on religion when its supposed to be on God .

I am lost how you aim to tell someone what topic of discuss they are supposed to dabble into and which they aren't

Atheists can be in religion and there are people who are without religion who still believe in God

exactly, which then means an atheist can also talk about religion, No?

You shouldn't be discussing about Psalm 3 :1 with a theist , you should be talking about God and Cosmology and why you reject deification .

And you forgot that theists that they engage often comes up with one Sura or one psalm. God becomes subdivided into religious inclination thus birthing the need to address every religious view point when it is necessary while still discussing God which this religious structure represents.

I am sure religious atheists don't pray Psalm 3 do they?

felixomor:


The universe is not eternal
It has a beginning
Its age has even been estimated.

Where did the universe begin and when will it end to the point that there will be nothing? Everything that has a beginning must have an end, so when will the universe end?