701ecilana:

Okay loony one, am waiting. Meanwhile take your Meds.
Why are some doctors negligent of their patients? How can they leave Otem without his medications for this long? See how mad he has become.

Nurseeeeeeeee, One of your inmates is running out naked o.

The viewers can easily spot the mad btw u and me going by the way we comment.

OtemAtum:


The viewers can easily spot the mad btw u and me going by the way we comment.

Otem, you have got nothing on me. Am a Child of God. It pains you so much, no it pains the demons in you so much. I know you must have tired projecting me for evil you failed, you now turn physical.

Who pass you, pass you.

Keep crying and sleeping in the internet looking for what to use against me. Your day will come.

701ecilana:

Aminu see eh, this issue is an issue that anytime i read or hear you guys talk about it, i'd be like, how is this possible?

Let's take them point by point.


If Allah's promises are always fulfilled and can not be changed, why then are men able to change his words, by replacing and misquoting them?

Let me give you an example. Long time ago, from the mouth of the prophet Jeremiah, God (whom you say is allah) says that His promises will not only remain with and, for the Jews only, but he will make a new covenant which will make allowance and accomodate the non-Jew so that they too can enjoy his promises.

He fulfilled it by bring Jesus Christ, through whom we the gentles are now part of that covenant. And He, (God) said that when he will do this, He will make the Jews obstinate to his New Move. And we see the Jews obstinate today. They have rejected that new move by rejecting Jeaus Christ. This is how you know that the Word of God can not be tampered with by mere men.

you people are confused and funny at the same time lol..you already reject the idea of Quran being from God why then are you trying to comment of these Quranic verses ??
you are jst trying to twist things here, i made this clear in my prev post. you are failing to comprehend what you read honestly.

here is what i said again..

" "None can change His words", i am saying that there is no one who could change what He has informed in His books about anything which is bound to happen during it's time or has been postponed. It all happens as Allah says it would".

when you truly understand the above comment you will know there is no need for all you examples and explanations.

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen and that's part of it that you are trying to explain above. He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Today, there is no one Bible!. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc...

Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran:
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran on the other hand, did promise that He will personally guard the Noble Quran from corruption. He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in the Noble Quran. He will guard it Himself; "ALLAH have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); and ALLAH will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. (The Noble Quran, 15:9)." Today we have only one Arabic Noble Quran unlike the Bible that has many..

"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn"(QURAN)

The koran says the above. The Bible says Below

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him" (BIBLE)

Just look at how you are mixing things up here... by fire by force you pple turn to be Quranic Mufasir (writer of a commentary on the Quran.) in other to win arguments...
I thought you are fair in your judgement to put the comparison like below...

>>Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, “Be!”– and it is!) [Quran Surah Yasin:82)

>>The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. - [Quran 2:117]

The koran says the above. The Bible says Below

>> Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.[Deuteronomy 4:2]

>> " How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?[Jeremiah 8:8]

Ecclesiastes:3:14
Jehovah said this, if Jehovah is the same as allah, that means allah said this too. Could allah be speaking from both sides of his mouth?

He claims men added and subtracted from His words, hmmmm Something must be wrong somewhere. Are you following?

*In Deuteronomy 4:2is Yahweh here talking about +/- in his commandments ? i thought men can't temper with his words??
* what was handled falsely in Jeremiah 8:8?

Okay, i think there's something we are missing here, there's no way any man can successfully change an eternal book like the Bible, you know why? The Bible is a book of instructions on how to live and conduct yourself daily. The book of the future (Prophesies) of which some are fulfilled, some are being fulfilled now and some are yet to be fulfilled. It's a book of principles, concepts, ordinances precepts and statutes. The principles, ordiances precepts andnstatutes are still applicable to human existences today. If there are changed there'll be definitely be clashes Aminu nah. Open your eyes.

thats according to your own view
Whoever does not believe in the Torah and Gospels as a revelation of God is not a Muslim by consensus of ALL Muslim scholars no matter the denomination. Fortunately, the last revelation (Quran) came to correct and rectify the previously distorted facts about who God is

>>Verse (5:48)<<
“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety...

If men can change the word of God as you said, can man change the prophecies that Bible talks about?
yes they can and already did..

Here are some help us with some explanations

Q- “In Matthew 27 and 28:1, Jesus died on Friday, right? If Mary Magdalene visits the sepulcher on Sunday morning to find it empty... that only counts as 2 nights (24 hours) and 1 (12 hour) day, which is 36 hours. But Jesus said he will rise AFTER three whole days and three whole nights, which is at least 72 hours? Someone must be lying here”

Q- The Bible says… ‘When Jonah was 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the fish, so shall the son of man, be for 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth.’ Did Jesus peace be upon him, scientifically fulfill the sign of Jonah?

What the prophesies says will happen are happening. While there's no one single prophecy coming from the koran that we are expecting fulfilment. Is there Any?

few google clicks will prove that to you

Remember also the Word is made for Man not for gods or God, if He allows Men to pervert and tamper with his Word, do you not think he will do everything to preserve the original of that copy so that His real followers can gain access to it?

Looking at the original Arabic text of the Quran, which is very precise in its use of words, you will find three different Arabic words and phrases used to describe what English translations refer to as ‘words of God’,

Word of Allah and Words of Allah : Arabic [Kalimatu Allah and Kalimat (pl) Allah]
Speech of Allah conveyed to his messengers: [Kalamu Allah]
Scriptures/Book(s) revealed : [Kitab Allah, Kutub Allah]
1: Although the generic Arabic term ‘word’ can mean any part of speech, the Phrase: {Word(s) of Allah}, as used in the Quran, always refers to the Decrees that God makes, When Allah decrees something, He says ‘Be’ and it is. This is attested to In Islam and also in the Bible.

Phrase 2: {Scriptures}: The words revealed by God in Scriptures are referred to everywhere in the Quran as: ‘Books’ or {Kitab or Kutub}. The Torah, The Injil (Gospel) and The Quran are always described in The Quran as such, and NEVER as ‘The Word(s) of Allah’.

Phrase 3: {Kalamu Allah} usually refers to speech of God to His messengers, including the original Scriptures.

All three verses in your question use the phrases ‘Word of Allah’ or ‘Words of Allah’ which means his Decrees. Nowhere in the Quran does it say ‘None can alter the Scriptures’ or non can alter the ‘Speech of Allah’ or any thing close to this meaning.

Here are the verses you quoted in your Question, translated literally:

[Quran 6:34]:
Messengers indeed have been denied before thee, and they were patient under the denial and the persecution till Our succour reached them. There is none to alter the Words of Allah. Already there hath reached thee of the tidings of the messengers (We sent before).

The above verse is a reference to the Decree that God will always make his messengers victorious over their adversaries

[Quran 6:115]:
And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words. And He is the All¬Hearer, the All¬Knower.(115)

Again, this is the most literal translation, and is a clear indication that the Words of Allah refers to what He decreed.

Example: If Johnny writes a letter to Marry Joe and saves it. That Marry Joe later edits and/or modify claiming to be original letter by Johnny. That can be proven wrong by Johnny because he got the master copy. So to make Marry Joe looks like a fool and a liar all Johnny has to do is to give another copy of Jean Doe to show the people that she [Marry Joe] is lying. It pretty bad, for Marry Joe, isn't it?

Let me give you another example. When the Catholic Church ruled the world, They hid the Original Bible (They didn't change it, they couldn't change it) just hid it and showed the people only what they wanted the People to know, God raised a man within them, a man called Martin Luther to see the original Bible, he took it and read, began to teach from it. Persecution broke loose, but many got to know that there was a conspiracy to hide the original Bible. From then till date, the Catholic Church has been trying to fight and keep the truth away from others, but the Holy Spirit kept raising men to reveal the truth.

Question; Why hasn't allah been able to preserve at least one copy of the original Bible, both the Tora and the Gospel so that now that you guys claim that the one we have is not the original you can be bold to present the original to us?

you wont be asking this question if truly u read the glorious Quran with an open mind
“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety[Quran]

Now when you say the Torah and Gospel has been perverted, misinterpreted and changed, Aminu, you are insulting allah and calling him incompetent. How can God allow his words to be changed by men?

refer to the above

The Word of God can not be changed. No matter how hard you tried, the Holy Spirit who wrote and is preserving it will reveal it. One of the persons hiding or who changed it will be convicted by the Holy Spirit and it will be revealed.

your believe

"The Torah & Gospel REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves
You contradict yourself here. If the Torah & the Gospel are the way allah revealed them, nothing changed or removed, why then did the koran say it's been changed? Isn't that the purpose of this Op?

read again if you still cant comprehend ask someone to help you but there is no contradiction there..

Which are these books which men wrote themselves pls? Do you realize that the koran is a reported speach? Allah tells jibril, jibril tells muhammed, muhmmed tells his his followers, his followers told you, yet you believed allah wrote your koran with his own hands. lol

yes true but when one look at the main source (Quran) is free from all sort of errors and alterations like your Bible

Let us expose the following facts about the gospels

(1). None of the gospels are based on eye-witness accounts.

(2). The gospels were composed 150 years after Jesus departed.

(3). The Gospels are not mentioned by name until 200 CE.

(4). The early Church fathers never quote the Gospels from written sources!

(5). The Gospels are based on oral tradition.

(6). The Gospels contradict each other.

(7). The Gospels misquote the original Hebrew text (Matt. 2:6, Micah 5:2, 13:25, 27:9-10, Ps. 78:3, Mk. 1:2, 2:25, 10:19, John 7:38)

(8 ). The Gospels depend on the Septuagint, which is rejected by Christians.

(9). Jesus did not know Greek, yet the gospels are composed in Greek

(11). How do we know the NT books existed in 100-150 CE?

(12). None of the books are mentioned by name in the Apostolic period.

(13) The official New Testament canon was fixed 400 years after Jesus.

(14) The early Christian documents were not looked upon as Scripture

aminusanti:

you people are confused and funny at the same time lol..you already reject the idea of Quran being from God why then are you trying to comment of these Quranic verses ??
you are jst trying to twist things here, i made this clear in my prev post. you are failing to comprehend what you read honestly.

here is what i said again..

" "None can change His words", i am saying that there is no one who could change what He has informed in His books about anything which is bound to happen during it's time or has been postponed. It all happens as Allah says it would".

when you truly understand the above comment you will know there is no need for all you examples and explanations.

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen and that's part of it that you are trying to explain above. He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Today, there is no one Bible!. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc...

Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran:
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran on the other hand, did promise that He will personally guard the Noble Quran from corruption. He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in the Noble Quran. He will guard it Himself; "ALLAH have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); and ALLAH will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. (The Noble Quran, 15:9)." Today we have only one Arabic Noble Quran unlike the Bible that has many..




Just look at how you are mixing things up here... by fire by force you pple turn to be Quranic Mufasir (writer of a commentary on the Quran.) in other to win arguments...
I thought you are fair in your judgement to put the comparison like below...

>>Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, “Be!”– and it is!) [Quran Surah Yasin:82)

>>The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. - [Quran 2:117]

The koran says the above. The Bible says Below

>> Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.[Deuteronomy 4:2]

>> " How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?[Jeremiah 8:8]



*In Deuteronomy 4:2is Yahweh here talking about +/- in his commandments ? i thought men can't temper with his words??
* what was handled falsely in Jeremiah 8:8?


thats according to your own view
Whoever does not believe in the Torah and Gospels as a revelation of God is not a Muslim by consensus of ALL Muslim scholars no matter the denomination. Fortunately, the last revelation (Quran) came to correct and rectify the previously distorted facts about who God is

>>Verse (5:48)<<
“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety...

Well I am not surprised because the Quran is filled with curses against the Christians and the Jews (Qur'an 98:6, 9:30; 5:51, etc) and also physical threats against them (Quran 9:29). So your claim, as a Muslim, is not new. We are used to Muslims' threats and abuses, both from the mosques and from the Quran. This is why it is hard to trust a Muslim, whether a moderate or a radical one.

You made a claim that the Torah and the injil had been tampered with by the Jews and the Christians, can you please provide the original copies of the Bible? It is onus on you on provide an evidence in order to validate your claim. And your using different textual variance as evidence is too weak because various versions of the Bible has translational variations and not doctrinal variation. A 'king James version' of the holy Bible can use the English word 'thou shall not kill' while an NIV will use modern English 'you should not kill. And fya, both sentences are the same line of thought but with different English language patterns. This is also application in different versions of the Qur'an such as sahih international, picktail version, Yusuf Ali's version etc. So stop using semantics to drive hope your points.

On the reliability and the integrity of the Quran, it is very clear that the Quran is not the word of any God but the thought and imaginations of Mohammed. How do I know this? Very simple. From your own Islamic text, the sunnah, the sirah by Ibn Hisham and the hadith. Let's take it one by one, first the sunnah according to Ibn maggah. See the hadith narrations below:

Sunnah ibn maggah, hadith number 1944, as narrated by Aisha:

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

See similar story in sahih bukhari so that you don't say the hadith is 'weak':

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death) , near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."
Sahih Bukhari 2:23:413

Narrated 'Aisha: Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.
Sahih Bukhari 3:34:421

From the above, it is very clear that the verse of stoning was ommitted from the Quran because Aisha was very careless with the manuscript hence a goat ate it where she kept it which prompted its omission from the Quran after its compilation by Uthman Ibn Affan, the 3rd khalifa.

How then can you say the Quran is a complete word of allahh when some verses were mistakingly or deliberately omitted?

true2god:
Well I am not surprised because the Quran is filled with curses against the Christians and the Jews (Qur'an 98:6, 9:30; 5:51, etc) and also physical threats against them (Quran 9:29). So your claim, as a Muslim, is not new. We are used to Muslims' threats and abuses, both from the mosques and from the Quran. This is why it is hard to trust a Muslim, whether a moderate or a radical one.

You made a claim that the Torah and the injil had been tampered with by the Jews and the Christians, can you please provide the original copies of the Bible? It is onus on you on provide an evidence in order to validate your claim. And your using different textual variance as evidence is too weak because various versions of the Bible has translational variations and not doctrinal variation. A 'king James version' of the holy Bible can use the English word 'thou shall not kill' while an NIV will use modern English 'you should not kill. And fya, both sentences are the same line of thought but with different English language patterns. This is also application in different versions of the Qur'an such as sahih international, picktail version, Yusuf Ali's version etc. So stop using semantics to drive hope your points.

On the reliability and the integrity of the Quran, it is very clear that the Quran is not the word of any God but the thought and imaginations of Mohammed. How do I know this? Very simple. From your own Islamic text, the sunnah, the sirah by Ibn Hisham and the hadith. Let's take it one by one, first the sunnah according to Ibn maggah. See the hadith narrations below:

Sunnah ibn maggah, hadith number 1944, as narrated by Aisha:

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

See similar story in sahih bukhari so that you don't say the hadith is 'weak':

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death) , near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."
Sahih Bukhari 2:23:413

Narrated 'Aisha: Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.
Sahih Bukhari 3:34:421

From the above, it is very clear that the verse of stoning was ommitted from the Quran because Aisha was very careless with the manuscript hence a goat ate it where she kept it which prompted its omission from the Quran after its compilation by Uthman Ibn Affan, the 3rd khalifa.

How then can you say the Quran is a complete word of allahh when some verses were mistakingly or deliberately omitted?

The second issue is the integrity of the Qur'an. The Qur'an lacks integrity because some if the sahabas and scribes whom Mohammed used in writing the Qur'an were not writing exactly what Mohammed asked them to write. One of the men caught in this act is Abdullah Ibn Saad.

According to Islamic tradition 'Al Sira Al Nabawiya' by Ibn Hisham (chapter 4, page 57 and 58) and 'Al sira Al halabiya' by Al halabi (chapter 3, page 90 and 91), Mohammed ordered the killing of Abdullah Ibn Saad because he deceived him by writing another thing while Mohammed dictated another thing. Part of the Quranic verses he mis-wrote was Quran 23:14. Part of what he did was that he said 'so blessed be allahh the best creators' before Mohammed said it. Since it followed Mohammed's flow he (Mohammed) asked Abdullah Ibn Saad to include it.

Abdullah Ibn Saad went back to Mecca, from Medina, and left Islam (murtad) and told the quraysh:

'I was manipulating Mohammed the way I like, if Mohammed said "all wise" I will say "all knowing". Mohammed replied that all is correct and ordered me to write down everything i am saying in the Quran. He said that is right, that is how it is descended to me'.

If Abdullah Ibn Saad had just kept quiet without going to Mecca to expose Mohammed as a fraud, he life would not have been in danger. It took the intervention of his stepbrother, Uthman Ibn Affan, to save him from possible to execution by Mohammed and his fellow gangster, the sahabas.

So do you want me to believe the work of Abdullah Ibn Saad and Mohammed as a word from allahh? Not possible. Read the references I provided you and prove me wrong. They are not written by Islamophobe like me but Arab Muslim historians whose works are older than sahih bukhari's hadith.

true2god:
The second issue is the integrity of the Qur'an. The Qur'an lacks integrity because some if the sahabas and scribes whom Mohammed used in writing the Qur'an were not writing exactly what Mohammed asked them to write. One of the men caught in this act is Abdullah Ibn Saad.

According to Islamic tradition 'Al Sira Al Nabawiya' by Ibn Hisham (chapter 4, page 57 and 58) and 'Al sira Al halabiya' by Al halabi (chapter 3, page 90 and 91), Mohammed ordered the killing of Abdullah Ibn Saad because he deceived him by writing another thing while Mohammed dictated another thing. Part of the Quranic verses he mis-wrote was Quran 23:14. Part of what he did was that he said 'so blessed be allahh the best creators' before Mohammed said it. Since it followed Mohammed's flow he (Mohammed) asked Abdullah Ibn Saad to include it.

Abdullah Ibn Saad went back to Mecca, from Medina, and left Islam (murtad) and told the quraysh:

'I was manipulating Mohammed the way I like, if Mohammed said "all wise" I will say "all knowing". Mohammed replied that all is correct and ordered me to write down everything i am saying in the Quran. He said that is right, that is how it is descended to me'.

If Abdullah Ibn Saad had just kept quiet without going to Mecca to expose Mohammed as a fraud, he life would not have been in danger. It took the intervention of his stepbrother, Uthman Ibn Affan, to save him from possible to execution by Mohammed and his fellow gangster, the sahabas.

So do you want me to believe the work of Abdullah Ibn Saad and Mohammed as a word from allahh? Not possible. Read the references I provided you and prove me wrong. They are not written by Islamophobe like me but Arab Muslim historians whose works are older than sahih bukhari's hadith.

My third point, the hadith condemned the reliability and authenticity of the Qur'an. Read the hadith below by bukhari:


Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:
who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama
(where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an MAY BE LOST, unless you collect it . And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar,
'How can I do something WHICH ALLAH’S APOSTLE HAS NOT DONE?'
'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking me. "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)."
By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them , "How dare you do a thing WHICH THE PROPHET HAS NOT DONE?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart).
I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba WHICH I HAD NOT FOUND WITH ANYONE ELSE, (and they were):--
"Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128)
The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter. (Sahih al-Bukhari , Volume 6, Book 60, Number 201)

The number of memorizers that died was 450:

“During the battle of Yamama, 450 reciters of the Qur'an were killed.” (The True Guidance - An Introduction To Qur'anic Studies, published by Light of Life, P.O. BOX 13, A-9503 Villach, Austria, part 4, p. 47– citing Ibn Kathir’s Al-Bidaya wa al-Nihaya , chapter on Battle of Yamama)

According to another source, when these men died they took with them portions of the Qur'an that they alone had memorized:
Zuhri reports, 'We have heard that many Qur'an passages were revealed but that those who had memorised them fell in the Yemama fighting. Those passages had not been written down, and following the deaths of those who knew them, were no longer known; nor had Abu Bakr, nor `Umar nor `Uthman as yet collected the texts of the Qur'an . (Burton: The published text ought here to be amended: for "fa lamma jama`a Abu Bakr", I propose to read: "wa lamma yajma` Abu Bakr", to follow: "lam yuktab".)

Those lost passages were not to be found with anyone after the deaths of those who had memorised them . This, I understand, was one of the considerations which impelled them to pursue the Qur'an during the reign of Abu Bakr , committing it to sheets for fear that there should perish in further theatres of war men who bore much of the Qur'an which they would take to the grave with them on their fall, and which, with their passing, would not be found with any other. (John Burton, The Collection of the Qur'an , pp. 126-127, Abu Bakr `Abdullah b. abi Da'ud, Kitab al-Masahif’, ed. A. Jeffery, Cairo, 1936/1355, p. 23; bold emphasis ours)

Don't be in a hurry Aminusanti, read and research more on the above and see how your so-called allahh preserved the Quran. Its been long I have been told this lies, but thank God for the internet and YouTube videos, I am now more exposed to Islamic lies and tricks.

aminusanti:

you people are confused and funny at the same time lol..you already reject the idea of Quran being from God why then are you trying to comment of these Quranic verses ??
you are jst trying to twist things here, i made this clear in my prev post. you are failing to comprehend what you read honestly.

here is what i said again..

" "None can change His words", i am saying that there is no one who could change what He has informed in His books about anything which is bound to happen during it's time or has been postponed. It all happens as Allah says it would".

when you truly understand the above comment you will know there is no need for all you examples and explanations.

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen and that's part of it that you are trying to explain above. He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Today, there is no one Bible!. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc...

Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran:
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:41 "O Apostle! let not those grieve thee, who race each other into unbelief: (whether it be) among those who say "We believe" with their lips but whose hearts have no faith; or it be among the Jews,- men who will listen to any lie,- will listen even to others who have never so much as come to thee. They change the words from their (right) times and places: they say, 'If ye are given this, take it, but if not, beware!' If any one's trial is intended by God, thou hast no authority in the least for him against God. For such - it is not God's will to purify their hearts. For them there is disgrace in this world, and in the Hereafter a heavy punishment."

Allah Almighty in the Noble Quran on the other hand, did promise that He will personally guard the Noble Quran from corruption. He never promised hell fire to anyone who tries to tamper His words in the Noble Quran. He will guard it Himself; "ALLAH have, without a doubt, sent down the Message (The Quran); and ALLAH will assuredly Guard it [from corruption]. (The Noble Quran, 15:9)." Today we have only one Arabic Noble Quran unlike the Bible that has many..




Just look at how you are mixing things up here... by fire by force you pple turn to be Quranic Mufasir (writer of a commentary on the Quran.) in other to win arguments...
I thought you are fair in your judgement to put the comparison like below...

>>Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, “Be!”– and it is!) [Quran Surah Yasin:82)

>>The Originator of the heavens and the earth! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. - [Quran 2:117]

The koran says the above. The Bible says Below

>> Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.[Deuteronomy 4:2]

>> " How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?[Jeremiah 8:8]



*In Deuteronomy 4:2is Yahweh here talking about +/- in his commandments ? i thought men can't temper with his words??
* what was handled falsely in Jeremiah 8:8?


thats according to your own view
Whoever does not believe in the Torah and Gospels as a revelation of God is not a Muslim by consensus of ALL Muslim scholars no matter the denomination. Fortunately, the last revelation (Quran) came to correct and rectify the previously distorted facts about who God is

>>Verse (5:48)<<
“To thee (Muhammad) We sent the scripture(Qur'an) in truth confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety...

aminusanti:


"None can change His words", i am saying that there is no one who could change what He has informed in His books about anything which is bound to happen during it's time or has been postponed. It all happens as Allah says it would

Aminu, you are confusing yourself. Your koran says allahs word can not be changed, but again you said Jews and Christians changed it. How?

If what he says is bound to happen will happen, but now Jews and Christians changed Bible, according to the koran, how come then can you know what informatiin allah had given to know when it happens?
You are forgetting that what is happening today is still right there in the Bible while there's none in the koran.

If you claim the Bible is corrupt, changed, (although you said it can't be changed) how will you know that muhamed was promised there? Do you get my point?

aminusanti:

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who try to tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going to happen and that's part of it that you are trying to explain above. He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and they simply blew it!. Today, there is no one Bible!. The number of Books/Gospels in the Roman Catholics Bible for instance is different from the King James Version Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Jehovah's Witnesses Bible, which is different in the number of Books/Gospels from the Mormon's Bible, etc...

I like it when you say "According to Islam". You didn't say it's the truth. Islam if put under scrutiny will come out a lie.
1. You claim the Almighty God of the Bible is the same as allah?

Okay. Allah will have to be a two faced lair then. How do I mean?

Allah, gave prophesies about the coming Messiah to all his prophets. When it was time for him to be born, allah sent Jibril to announce the birth of the child. Jibril gave the name of the Child. Jibril called that Child the Son of God before the Child was even born.

When the Messiah came, he introduced him as his son To people. He made the people believed in him. He deceived the Jews to believe they had killed him while he secretly stole him away and replace a look alike. The question is why?

Now, remember he had made people to believe that Jesus was his son. These people out of their beliefs were tormented, denied the rights and killed. Allah kept quiet for 600 and something years, he then sent another of his servants with a mesaage saying, 'Don't listen to those other people o, they are liars. They have changed my words. But never for once did he ever repremand them directly for mutilating his words. No punishment prior to Muhamed. Everything went on fine.
Then from no where the same Jibril returns with a different message denying the very Jesus who he had named the son of God, declaring that Jesus indeed was a slave, not a son.

Ask yourself this Aminu, why did allah or Jibril not tell these other people with the hope of correcting them? You meant non of them could hear him?
Why wait 600 years, by this time, so many people have believed what Allah sent Jibril before to say.


Jibril denied Jesus, allah commanded that anyone who calls Jesus his son should be killed.

Double tongued allah won't you say?

aminusanti:


Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran:
"But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jews and Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)." Israel, when it lost Allah Almighty's grace, began to sin against truth and religion in three ways: (1) they began to misuse Scripture itself, by either taking words out of their right meaning, or applying them to things for which they were never meant; (2) in doing so, they conveniently forgot a part of the Message and purpose of Allah; and (3) they invented new deceits to support the old ones.

A god who allows this must be a very weak god.

[quote author=true2god post=59164968]

Clap for yourself because no logical or reasonable person, outside Islam, will believe in your cockk and bull story.

going back and forth as usual. this is exactly one of the reasons why i always ignore your posts. you will fill a whole page without making a single point/sense and when points re given to you that you can't refute you wld end up saying trash
Why are you people ignoring my Questions? Are you afraid to be exposed?

In order for Muslims worldwide to discredit allahh and promote Islam, you claim that the Torah and the injil had been corrupted even when allahh had said his words/books can *NEVER* be corrupted.

keep lying to yourself & keep twisting the original context.. where is your proof on where it was mentioned injil & Torah can never be corrupted ??
instead here is what you can find Read below and give us ur commentary as a deceiving Quran Mufasir..
"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn".

To escape this problem, Muslims now invented a new lie (Muslims are great inventors of lies and conspiracy theories) that the original copies of the Torah and the injil are in heaven with allahh while the fake copies are with the Jews and the Christians. Where did you get this info from? Is there any Quranic passage or an hadith narration that support this claim? Is this your personal deduction, or is there any 'fatwa' issued by the ulama on this? I need your clarification.

Do you then hope that they would believe in you, and a party from among them indeed used to hear the Word of Allah, then altered it after they had understood it, and they know (this). And when they meet those who believe they say: We believe, and when they are alone one with another they say: Do you talk to them of what Allah has disclosed to you that they may contend with you by this before your Lord? Do you not then understand? Do they not know that Allah knows what they keep secret and what they make known?
Qur'an 2:75-77

[s]You quoted surah 2 ayah 79 to buttress your points on this. This further exposed your desperation and lies on the subject matter because we kafirs have read your Quran, hadith, the sunbath and the sira hence you cannot easily get away with your lies like before. The ayah you quoted was referring to Abdullah Ibn sa'ad Ibn Abi darh, the half brother of the 3rd khalifa, Uthman Ibn Affan.

Abdullah Ibn sa'ad Ibn Abi sarh was the scribe who usually helped Mohammed to write down any alleged (no proof) revelation he received from an entity whom he called allahh. As a matter of fact, Mohammed allegedly received revelations while Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad wrote some of them down because Mohammed was said to be an illiterate Arabian man. At a time Abdullah Ibn Saad was writing another thing while Mohammed was dictating another thing entirely. When Mohammed discover what he was doing, or he did (he must have asked another literate person to proof-read what Ibn Sa'ad wrote) he (Mohammed) became angry and allahh revealed Quran 2:79 to him. He also revealed Quran 6:93 concerning this incident.

Abdullah Ibn Saad, upon learning that Mohammed had discovered what he did ran away and went to his step-brother Uthman Ibn Affan to helped him beg Mohammed for forgiveness. Uthman brought him to Mohammed and pleaded that he should be forgiven but Mohammed didn't say a single word. Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad mistook his silence and thought that the prophet of allahh had truly forgiven him hence walked away peacefully. Mohammed became furious with his armies and asked them why they didn't kill him immediately but the soldiers said they didn't get any sign from the messenger of allahh to kill him. Mohammed then scolded his sahabas that a prophet of God does not wink. You can read your Islamic materials 'Al Sirah Al Nawabiya' by Ibn Hisham, chapter IV, paged 57 and 58. Also read 'Al sira Al Halabiya' by Al Halabi, chapter 3, page 90 to have a brighter picture of this incident. Do your research well, get your facts right so that you dont come online to disgrace yourself.[/s]

You are really running out of ideas! all these deceptive methods wont prove you right my frined...just look at how out of desperation to prove ur points, you have to quote an unknown writer and put Quran and Hadith aside.. you can carry on deceiving your fellow lost sheep friends..

It is ridiculous that allahh, the alleged 'all-wise and all-knowing' would allow human beings, of over 2billion Jews and Christians, to posses a 'corrupted' religious text while he regained the original copy in heaven, according to Muslims. Then allahh is not wise but deceptive.

you can ask the holy spirit to break the verse down for you cause your normal sense cant pick it up..
" How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?[Jeremiah 8:8]
Even your scriptures proved that they re tempered and you r here beating around the bush

Aminu, don't start screeching. Just calm down lets comttinue this discussion.

.

a man with two children , boy ( 12 years) and girl ( 13 years). after 16 years, someone came and said they are not your children, ofcours you will request for evidence probably a DNA test, if this is not done, their is no way you will accept that this children are not yours. after 600 years Muhammad came and say the Bible is corrupted. As I read the Bible and saw statements like “God is love”; “love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind” [Matt. 22:37 ]; “But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you” [Matt. 5:44 ]. Are these verses part of the corrupted Bible? What was changed? Who changed it? When was it changed? And the question: why did they corrupt it? These are all good questions that I have asked. No one seemed to have the answer.

Visitor700:



The reason for this is largely due to the changes made to it (the bible) over the centuries.



Where is your proof?

the Quran say the gospel is the word of Allah and nothing can change it. this simply mean that the Quran affirm the gospel.

[quote author=aminusanti post=59221181][/quote]Thanks for being civil. I must commend you for that. That's how we can learn from each other.

You will agree with me that no allahh spoke with Mohammed directly. At no time did Allah spoke with Mohammed but he (allahh) allegedly transmit his message through a medium whom Mohammed called angel jibril (no single evidence), Mohammed them tell his scribes what to write (what the angel jibril to him) and the scribes write them down on whatever material available to them. Can you see the chain of transmission?

Allahh>angel jibril>Mohammed>the scribes (human writers of the Quran).

As a matter of fact, some of what the scribes wrote are complete false. I am surprised that you will deny the Islamic works of Ibn Hisham, which is much more older than the works of bukhari. Its a known fact that imam bukhari lifted many works we currently have in sahih bukhari from 'Al sira' by Ibn Hisham. We don't need to lie to gain a point.

A reference was given to you concerning one of the Quran writers, Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad, which you completely ignored. Who is Abdullah Ibn Saad? What role did he play in the writing of the Quran? Have you bothered to do an unbiased and independent research on him, using Islamic earliest manuscripts, viz sira rasul allahh by Ibn Ishaq or Al sira by Ibn Hisham? Of course you won't do that because it Will open your mind on the old myth that Allah dictated the Quran to Mohammed directly.

An hadith was also given to you on how the Quran was compiled after the death of Mohammed which you neither accept nor repudiate. See the hadith below:

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of yamama (where a great number of Qurra’ were killed). ‘Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, ‘Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra’ (those who know the Qur’an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur’an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur’an.” Abu Bakr added, “I said to ‘Umar, ‘How can I do something which Allah’s Apostle has not done?’ ‘Umar said (to me), ‘By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.’ So ‘Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as ‘Umar.” (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). “You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur’an and collect it (in one manuscript). ” By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur’an. I said to both of them, “How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):– “Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)” (9.128) The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with ‘Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar’s daughter. (Book #60 , Hadith #201).

Read the next hadith #202 to get a complete picture of how your Quran was eventually compiled while the rest were burnt by Uthman. Also note that many men who knew the Qur'an by heart died in the battle of yamama, how did Abu Bakr and Uthman retrieve the Qur'anic passages that were lost in the battle? Why did Uthman Ibn Affan burnt some copies of the Quran? Whose project is the compilation of the Quran, Abu Bakr or Mohammed Ibn Abdullah?

aminusanti:

Alhamdulillah am good just got fed up of all this recycled arguments .



Those misquoted verses are simply stating that Allah's promises are always fulfilled and no one could change that.

One could easily change and distort texts by picking up a book and a pen, but they could not change the original true texts and revelations which is with Allah
Removing the words from the books here on earth does not mean that God's words have become totally lost but lost here on earth only.

"The Torah & Gospel REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves

ALLAH is saying in the verse below the Christians and Jews miss-interpret these 2 books, and go on to make books up which they wrote with their own hands! This is exactly what we Muslims believe, we believe in the true Torah, and the true Gospel and we believe that no one can ever corrupt the true originals. However what they can do is misinterpret the true books, and after this they can go on to write fake books and then claim that the fake books they wrote with their hands are from Allah and are the Gospel and Torah.

«Quran 2:79»
"So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah ," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn."

What we have today is not a Gospel but GospelS, we do not have the Gospel of Jesus, rather we have the Gospel of Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John! Hence the Christians have invented their own books with their hands and claim that these books that were written by men such as Mark and Matthew are from God! Yet we know they are not from God, and we know they are a corrupted distorted version of the true Gospel which was the Gospel of Jesus. The four Gospels we have today were written after Jesus, which were based on many false interpretations and guess-work, which was then written down in ink, and then many claimed that these Gospels were from God.

Sorry to say. If Jesus is the prince of peace.. Why does Allah tell us to pray that peace be with Mohammed. Why?

true2god:
Clap for yourself because no logical or reasonable person, outside Islam, will believe in your cockk and bull story.

In order for Muslims worldwide to discredit allahh and promote Islam, you claim that the Torah and the injil had been corrupted even when allahh had said his words/books can *NEVER* be corrupted. To escape this problem, Muslims now invented a new lie (Muslims are great inventors of lies and conspiracy theories) that the original copies of the Torah and the injil are in heaven with allahh while the fake copies are with the Jews and the Christians. Where did you get this info from? Is there any Quranic passage or an hadith narration that support this claim? Is this your personal deduction, or is there any 'fatwa' issued by the ulama on this? I need your clarification.

You quoted surah 2 ayah 79 to buttress your points on this. This further exposed your desperation and lies on the subject matter because we kafirs have read your Quran, hadith, the sunbath and the sira hence you cannot easily get away with your lies like before. The ayah you quoted was referring to Abdullah Ibn sa'ad Ibn Abi darh, the half brother of the 3rd khalifa, Uthman Ibn Affan.

Abdullah Ibn sa'ad Ibn Abi sarh was the scribe who usually helped Mohammed to write down any alleged (no proof) revelation he received from an entity whom he called allahh. As a matter of fact, Mohammed allegedly received revelations while Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad wrote some of them down because Mohammed was said to be an illiterate Arabian man. At a time Abdullah Ibn Saad was writing another thing while Mohammed was dictating another thing entirely. When Mohammed discover what he was doing, or he did (he must have asked another literate person to proof-read what Ibn Sa'ad wrote) he (Mohammed) became angry and allahh revealed Quran 2:79 to him. He also revealed Quran 6:93 concerning this incident.

Abdullah Ibn Saad, upon learning that Mohammed had discovered what he did ran away and went to his step-brother Uthman Ibn Affan to helped him beg Mohammed for forgiveness. Uthman brought him to Mohammed and pleaded that he should be forgiven but Mohammed didn't say a single word. Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad mistook his silence and thought that the prophet of allahh had truly forgiven him hence walked away peacefully. Mohammed became furious with his armies and asked them why they didn't kill him immediately but the soldiers said they didn't get any sign from the messenger of allahh to kill him. Mohammed then scolded his sahabas that a prophet of God does not wink. You can read your Islamic materials 'Al Sirah Al Nawabiya' by Ibn Hisham, chapter IV, paged 57 and 58. Also read 'Al sira Al Halabiya' by Al Halabi, chapter 3, page 90 to have a brighter picture of this incident. Do your research well, get your facts right so that you dont come online to disgrace yourself.

It is ridiculous that allahh, the alleged 'all-wise and all-knowing' would allow human beings, of over 2billion Jews and Christians, to posses a 'corrupted' religious text while he regained the original copy in heaven, according to Muslims. Then allahh is not wise but deceptive.

Boss how were u able to come up with this? Lovely write up

Princeboca12:


Boss how were u able to come up with this? Lovely write up

Bros, this is extensive research. No honest Muslim or Islamic scholar will dispute this simple but hidden secret.

Google ('Al Sirah Al Nawabiya' by Ibn Hisham, chapter IV, paged 57 and 58. Also read 'Al sira Al Halabiya' by Al Halabi, chapter 3, page 89 to 91) to get more facts on this. The works of Ibn Hisham is older than all sahih bukhari s hadith collections. Sahih bukhari is the most reliable Islamic material after the Koran.

.

Visitor700:


Where exactly was this mentioned?

which gospel did Allah gave Jesus ? when you say a book is corrupted, this mean the book is the word of God but men corrupted it, you cannot call a false book corrupt, because there is nothing to be corrupted from the beginning because it is a false book. so who corrupted it ? why ? and when ? why will Allah allow mere men to corrupt his word ?

.

Visitor700:


The original gospel.



Who ever said the bible is a false book? The bible wasn't corrupted from the beginning and the changes were made over the ages.



The people of the scripture.
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'"
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)



I already clarified this issue above.



You will find the answer to this questions in my previous post.

Thanks bro! Please can you tell us who wrote the Quran? Can you tell us how the Qur'an was compiled after the death of Mohammed? Who gave you the current standardized Quran being used worldwide today?

Is there a single surviving manuscript of the Mohammed's Quran? If yes, what/where is the evidence?

Princeboca12:


Sorry to say. If Jesus is the prince of peace.. Why does Allah tell us to pray that peace be with Mohammed. Why?

is a sign of respect n connection..

This is not really a prayer asking for him some peace. It is rather wishing him some.

It is a sign of appreciation among Muslims, and when they get together, they should do so to each other. So doing the same for Prophet Muhammad is actually fundamental, since not many people back in his time seemed to do so and God made this a compulsion among all Muslims.

So this just makes us feel better, and makes us realize more about what the essence of Islam truly is.

701ecilana:
Aminu, don't start screeching. Just calm down lets comttinue this discussion.

Screeching to? My guy I cant be replying immediately due to the nature of my work especially if your write up is lengthy or the argument is only going bck and forth ..

true2god:
Well I am not surprised because the Quran is filled with curses against the Christians and the Jews (Qur'an 98:6, 9:30; 5:51, etc) and also physical threats against them (Quran 9:29). So your claim, as a Muslim, is not new. We are used to Muslims' threats and abuses, both from the mosques and from the Quran. This is why it is hard o trust a Muslim, whether a moderate or a radical one.

sorry I cant help you here. You can carry on believing those ur misinterpreted verses

You made a claim that the Torah and the injil had been tampered with by the Jews and the Christians, can you please provide the original copies of the Bible?

Why would you need the original when Allah already inform and update you with latest and last revelation the Holy Quran?
All the previous scripture were meant for particular time period..refer to the quran with an open mind and see if you wld ask for any original of Gospel.

It is onus on you on provide an evidence in order to validate your claim. And your using different textual variance as evidence is too weak because various versions of the Bible has translational variations and not doctrinal variation. A 'king James version' of the holy Bible can use the English word 'thou shall not kill' while an NIV will use modern English 'you should not kill. And fya, both sentences are the same line of thought but with different English language patterns

. Anyone reading scripture for knowledge even at the basic level should know that and I am confusing any of the translation sir rather you are the one who not having good understanding of this
Read below

This is also application in different versions of the Qur'an such as sahih international, picktail version, Yusuf Ali's version etc. So stop using semantics to drive hope your points.

My guy pls get this correct , Translation & ,versions are two different thing.. the Quran has different translation by different translator using different choice of words but when u say version the Bible got many version meaning what is in Roman catholic bible is completely different from KJV. Thats what we call version pls

On the reliability and the integrity of the Quran, it is very clear that the Quran is not the word of any God but the thought and imaginations of Mohammed. How do I know this? Very simple. From your own Islamic text, the sunnah, the sirah by Ibn Hisham and the hadith. Let's take it one by one, first the sunnah according to Ibn maggah. See the hadith narrations below:

Sunnah ibn maggah, hadith number 1944, as narrated by Aisha:

It was narrated that 'Aishah said:
“The Verse of stoning and of breastfeeding an adult ten times was revealed and the paper was with me under my pillow. When the Messenger of Allah died, we were preoccupied with his death, and a tame sheep came in and ate it.”

See similar story in sahih bukhari so that you don't say the hadith is 'weak':

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar : The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death) , near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."
Sahih Bukhari 2:23:413

Narrated 'Aisha: Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.
Sahih Bukhari 3:34:421

From the above, it is very clear that the verse of stoning was ommitted from the Quran because Aisha was very careless with the manuscript hence a goat ate it where she kept it which prompted its omission from the Quran after its compilation by Uthman Ibn Affan, the 3rd khalifa.

How then can you say the Quran is a complete word of allahh when some verses were mistakingly or deliberately omitted?

are you issuing fatwa(lectures) here based on ur own understanding & interpretatioons or you are asking for clarification, so I don't waste my time pls

[quote author=701ecilana post=59219361]

Aminu, you are confusing yourself. Your koran says allahs word can not be changed, but again you said Jews and Christians changed it. How?

with all the explanation given to u earlier yet you are still asking ! sorry then i can't help on this and i even ask you to defend jeremiah 8:8, you couldnt

If what he says is bound to happen will happen, but now Jews and Christians changed Bible, according to the koran, how come then can you know what information allah had given to know when it happens?
You are forgetting that what is happening today is still right there in the Bible while there's none in the koran.

If you claim the Bible is corrupt, changed, (although you said it can't be changed) how will you know that muhamed was promised there? Do you get my point?

Bible is not corruptd in its entirety and no where in my write up i said so. We believe in it there are true words of God, word of jesus, writers, disciples, historians etc, and we believe alot of things to be correct in it as long as it correspond to the Quran or free from contradiction..
Get this fact correct, most of the early followers (Jeuchristian & some other groups) of jesus got their messages correct and they believe jesus to be nothing but a messenger of God Almighty. its much later later when emperor constantine and your Uncle paul appears down the line and change the scriptures to their liking...
Here is what Quran says:

"And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you…" [Quran 3:50]

“And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it." [Quran 5:48]

"The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' ' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari)

I like it when you say "According to Islam". You didn't say it's the truth. Islam if put under scrutiny will come out a lie.
1. You claim the Almighty God of the Biblereal Injeel is the same as Allah?

yes, but not the god of your modified bible

[s]Okay. Allah will have to be a two faced lair then. How do I mean?[/s]

Allah, gave prophesies about the coming Messiah to all his prophets. When it was time for him to be born, allah sent Jibril to announce the birth of the child. Jibril gave the name of the Child. Jibril called that Child the Son of God before the Child was even born.

When the Messiah came, he introduced him as his son To people. He made the people believed in him. He deceived the Jews to believe they had killed him while he secretly stole him away and replace a look alike. The question is why?

*The prophets before jesus they were also called sons of GOD in ur bible, "Son of God" simply means "Servant of God" in Hebrew.
*Yes. God saved jesus from being murdered by the jews and if u think jesus died on the cross for ur sin then you are simply denying the verse below.
Read the below
Bible Hebrew 5:7 During the days of Jesus' life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

Now, remember he had made people to believe that Jesus was his son. These people out of their beliefs were tormented, denied the rights and killed. Allah kept quiet for 600 and something years, he then sent another of his servants with a mesaage saying, 'Don't listen to those other people o, they are liars. They have changed my words. But never for once did he ever repremand them directly for mutilating his words. No punishment prior to Muhamed. Everything went on fine.
Then from no where the same Jibril returns with a different message denying the very Jesus who he had named the son of God, declaring that Jesus indeed was a slave, not a son.

Again jesus is not begotten son of God as you pple are claiming.. and that why jesus said in your Bible " i have many things to say say onto you but you can't bear them now ...." it shows you you even back then some people mistook him to be God and Son of God(begotten). The earlier followers of jesus most of them believe jesus to be a prophet and they keep the commandment. All that alteration, and corruptions happened 150 years after jesus left...there re alot of early manuscripts found that exposed all these lies that you people are believing in, read Apocalypse of Peter

Ask yourself this Aminu, why did allah or Jibril not tell these other people with the hope of correcting them? You meant non of them could hear him?
Why wait 600 years, by this time, so many people have believed what Allah sent Jibril before to say.


Jibril denied Jesus, allah commanded that anyone who calls Jesus his son should be killed.

Double tongued allah won't you say?



A god who allows this must be a very weak god.

refer to the above pls

.

Visitor700:


The original gospel.



Who ever said the bible is a false book? The bible wasn't corrupted from the beginning and the changes were made over the ages.



The people of the scripture.
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'"
(Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)



I already clarified this issue above.



You will find the answer to this questions in my previous post.

were is the original gospel ?

.

aminusanti:
sorry I cant help you here. You can carry on believing those ur misinterpreted verses


Why would you need the original when Allah already inform and update you with latest and last revelation the Holy Quran?
All the previous scripture were meant for particular time period..refer to the quran with an open mind and see if you wld ask for any original of Gospel.

. Anyone reading scripture for knowledge even at the basic level should know that and I am confusing any of the translation sir rather you are the one who not having good understanding of this
Read below


My guy pls get this correct , Translation & ,versions are two different thing.. the Quran has different translation by different translator using different choice of words but when u say version the Bible got many version meaning what is in Roman catholic bible is completely different from KJV. Thats what we call version pls

are you issuing fatwa(lectures) here based on ur own understanding & interpretatioons or you are asking for clarification, so I don't waste my time pls

If you say that I am misinterpreting allahh's words then you accused allahh of being a bad communicator. Mohammed/jibril/allahh were very clear in Quran 9:29 for Muslims to fight the Jews and Christians and force them to pay the jizya with willing submission. This evil command by allahh is very clear and unambiguous. If you read the tasfir of Ibn kathir, an Arabian Islamic scholar, he was very very clear on this, that Muslims must fight the Jews and Christians and grant them a dhimmi status in any Islamic state. This is what is known, in all Islamic circle, as 'The Pact of Umar'. Stop being disingenuous bro. Mohammed also called the Christians and the Jews 'the worst of creatures' (Qur'an 98:6) and asked Muslims not to take the Jews and the Christians as friends (Quran 5:51).

The Quran, as I said earlier, is never the word of any God but the imaginations and desires of Mohammed. No any God, or so-called allahh, spoke to Mohammed at any time. According to Mohammed himself, all the alleged revelations are from jibril. How can we authenticate that it wasn't a demon talking to Mohammed but called himself jibril. Mohammed, at a point was a victim of black magic, as narrated by Aisha in the hadith. If you agree with me that a typical victim of black magic is possessed by a demon, then Mohammed, at one point or the other was equally possessed by a demon. This is in your hadith.

Again, you brushed aside the testimony of Ibn Hisham on the story of Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad because it will dealt a mortal blow on the integrity of the Qur'an and Mohammed. If you reject 'Al sira' by Ibn Hisham, you also have to reject all the hadith of Bukhari because he copied some of his works from Ibn Hisham.

You said the Roman Catholic Bible is different from the KJV, can you please provide your evidence. The last time I checked, over 90% of Catholics used the KJV of the Bible.

Lastly, its unfortunate that Muslims will reject their own hadith in order to validate Islam. Very funny and highly hypothetical! Do you reject or accept 'sunnah Ibn majjah hadith 1944' where Aisha reported that some Quranic manuscript were eaten by a goat? According to that hadith, the verses of breastfeeding an adult and stoning adulterers were eaten by goat. But you know what, these incidence were well documented in the hadith.

Whose testimony do I believe, yours or Aisha's (an eye witness to the event)?

Visitor700:


Allah authored it.



After the death of prophet muhammad (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him), umar ibn al-khattab suggested that the quran should be compiled after 450-700 quran memorizers died in the battle of yamama. By abu bakr's order, zayd ibn thabit compiled the quran into a single book. Despite of being one of the prophet's scribes and a hafiz (quran memorizer), zayd took it upon himself to get 2 evidences for each verse and 2 written copies from 2 people. Umar made sure that the portions of the quran in their possession were written in presence of prophet muhammed (Peace and Blessings of Allah be upon him).



Again, Allah authored it. No word was added, omitted or changed.



Yes.



The surviving manuscripts can be seen at the museum in tashkent in uzbekistan and topkapi museum in istanbul in turkey.

Sorry bro, God never authored any Koran. Mohammed allegedly received revelations from whom he called jibril, dictated same to his scribes and then some of his companions memorized what the scribes wrote. That's the simple and honest truth about your Koran. Accept it and move on.

The current standardized Quran is the work of uthman Ibn Affan. He collected some and burnt the rest which he probably deemed very insignificant or damaging to the entire Islamic project. Mohammed never even asked anyone to compile his alleged revelations as a single readable text. It was the idea of the early Muslim ummah, lead by Abu Bakr and executed by Uthman. Most of the manuscript were in the hands of Mohammed's wives, Aisha and hafsa whose fathere became the first and second khalifa. Can you pick the pieces together now? Use your brain bro!

You said there was a dual control when the Qur'an was being compiled. That's a lie. No record of two sahabas having the same recitation to reconcile the other. You can show me any relevant hadith that support this position.

The surviving manuscript in Uzbekistan and instanbul are how old? When did Uthman Ibn Affan die and when was the Uzbek and Turkey manuscript written? Simple assignment for you.

proudkafir:
If you say that I am misinterpreting allahh's words then you accused allahh of being a bad communicator. Mohammed/jibril/allahh were very clear in Quran 9:29 for Muslims to fight the Jews and Christians and force them to pay the jizya with willing submission. This evil command by allahh is very clear and unambiguous. If you read the tasfir of Ibn kathir, an Arabian Islamic scholar, he was very very clear on this, that Muslims must fight the Jews and Christians and grant them a dhimmi status in any Islamic state. This is what is known, in all Islamic circle, as 'The Pact of Umar'. Stop being disingenuous bro. Mohammed also called the Christians and the Jews 'the worst of creatures' (Qur'an 98:6) and asked Muslims not to take the Jews and the Christians as friends (Quran 5:51).

The Quran, as I said earlier, is never the word of any God but the imaginations and desires of Mohammed. No any God, or so-called allahh, spoke to Mohammed at any time. According to Mohammed himself, all the alleged revelations are from jibril. How can we authenticate that it wasn't a demon talking to Mohammed but called himself jibril. Mohammed, at a point was a victim of black magic, as narrated by Aisha in the hadith. If you agree with me that a typical victim of black magic is possessed by a demon, then Mohammed, at one point or the other was equally possessed by a demon. This is in your hadith.

Again, you brushed aside the testimony of Ibn Hisham on the story of Abdullah Ibn Sa'ad because it will dealt a mortal blow on the integrity of the Qur'an and Mohammed. If you reject 'Al sira' by Ibn Hisham, you also have to reject all the hadith of Bukhari because he copied some of his works from Ibn Hisham.

You said the Roman Catholic Bible is different from the KJV, can you please provide your evidence. The last time I checked, over 90% of Catholics used the KJV of the Bible.

Lastly, its unfortunate that Muslims will reject their own hadith in order to validate Islam. Very funny and highly hypothetical! Do you reject or accept 'sunnah Ibn majjah hadith 1944' where Aisha reported that some Quranic manuscript were eaten by a goat? According to that hadith, the verses of breastfeeding an adult and stoning adulterers were eaten by goat. But you know what, these incidence were well documented in the hadith.

Whose testimony do I believe, yours or Aisha's (an eye witness to the event)?

The hadith below confirmed that at one point Mohammed was under the influence of black magic, a so-called prophet of allahh:

Volume 8, Book 73, Number 89:
Narrated ‘Aisha:
The Prophet continued for such-and-such period imagining that he has slept (had sexual relations) with his wives, and in fact he did not. One day he said, to me, “O ‘Aisha! Allah has instructed me regarding a matter about which I had asked Him. There came to me two men, one of them sat near my feet and the other near my head. The one near my feet, asked the one near my head (pointing at me), ‘What is wrong with this man? The latter replied, ‘He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who had worked magic on him?’ The other replied, ‘Lubaid bin Asam.’ The first one asked, ‘What material (did he use)?’ The other replied, ‘The skin of the pollen of a male date tree with a comb and the hair stuck to it, kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan.”‘ Then the Prophet went to that well and said, “This is the same well which was shown to me in the dream. The tops of its date-palm trees look like the heads of the devils, and its water looks like the Henna infusion.” Then the Prophet ordered that those things be taken out. I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Won’t you disclose (the magic object)?” The Prophet said, “Allah has cured me and I hate to circulate the evil among the people.” ‘Aisha added, “(The magician) Lubaid bin Asam was a man from Bani Zuraiq, an ally of the Jews.”

Volume 7, Book 71, Number 660:
Narrated Aisha:
Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle so that he used to think that he had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not (Sufyan said: That is the hardest kind of magic as it has such an effect). Then one day he said, “O ‘Aisha do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other. What is wrong with this man?’ The latter replied the is under the effect of magic The first one asked, Who has worked magic on him?’ The other replied Labid bin Al-A’sam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.’ The first one asked, What material did he use)?’ The other replied, ‘A comb and the hair stuck to it.’ The first one asked, ‘Where (is that)?’ The other replied. ‘In a skin of pollen of a male date palm tree kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan’ ” So the Prophet went to that well and took out those things and said “That was the well which was shown to me (in a dream) Its water looked like the infusion of Henna leaves and its date-palm trees looked like the heads of devils.” The Prophet added, “Then that thing was taken out’ I said (to the Prophet ) “Why do you not treat yourself with Nashra?” He said, “Allah has cured me; I dislike to let evil spread among my people.”

So my question to aminusanti and 'visitor' are these: was jibril still sending revelations to allahh's apostle at this period when he was under the influence of a black magic? How is it possible for a prophet of God to be under the influence of black magic?