The hadith reads :

¤Whoever approaches a fortuneteller & believes what he says, he has disbelieved in what has been revealed to Muhammad (saw)¤

Now, the Qs :

1-: What is fortunetelling in this context ? What does it entails ?

2-: Who is a fortuneteller ?

3-: What is it that a fortuneteller would say that when one believes it, will annul ones faith ?

4-: In Q5:90 GOD forbade MU‘MINS from drawing/casting lots but in Q3:44 same GOD recounted how NABI ZAKARIYYA (as) drew lottery with his fellow sages on whos gonna train MARY (as), is that a contradiction ? Again in Q37:141 NABI YUNUS (as) participated in lottery which didnt favour him, so whats happening ?

5-: The NABI (saw) in many hadiths told fortunes, NABI YUSUF, YA‘QUB (as) told fortunes, inshort every NABI is a fortuneteller but ironically disbelieving in their fortunetelling is KUFR so whats happening ?

These are the question that those WAHABI MUFASSIRUNA used to avoid, they will deny something & wont tender any tangible or credible refutal.

If anyone tells you geomancy/fortunetelling is haram, let him answer this Qs, then we‘ll know what class he belongs to among those 3.

Coz if you dont put them on the hot seat their hypocrisy wont come out

With respect to Q31:141, if put back in its context does not suggest its permissibility or impermissibility. It appears to be something normal. Did he cast lots to see if he would make it through sea or what ?.

Now deniers are going to argue that this was in the past before nabi(saw). That advent of nabi (islamic sharia) put an end to it due to ahadith quoted by raitaker. The question now is, isn't the same applies to graves visitations?. That practice also predates nabi(saw). But the diff might be there is no restrictions from visiting graves in any hadith far as i know

Empiree:
With respect to Q31:141, if out back in its context doesnt suggest it permissibility or impermissibility. It appears to be something normal. Did he cast lots to see if he would make it through sea or what ?.

No o. You know as it is tradition with the ANBIYA, they dont act unless with direct approval from the realm of GOD. So, YUNUS exited his town when he saw their destruction coming without waiting for permission to do so, so GOD took offence.

He boarded a ship to escape, GOD sent a cyclone to capsize the ship. As it is with the pagans, whenever they encounter a life threatening turbulence of such nature @ sea, according to their belief, an offender of the gods is on board & will have to be thrown into the sea to appease the gods or else they will all perish. So to know who the offender is, lots have to be casted.

Now deniers are going to argue that this was in the pass before nabi(saw). That advent of nabi (islamic sharia) put an end to it due to ahadith quoted by raitaker. The question now is, isnt the same applies to graves visitations?. That practice also predates nabi(saw). But the diff might be there is no restrictions from visiting graves in any hadith far as i know

Their is a hadith (I‘ll look for it) where when the quraish alleged that they inherited their lottery from NABI IBRAHIM & ISMAIL (as), the NABI (saw) swore that NABI IBRAHIM & ISMAIL (as) never drew lots, that the arabs were liars.

I never really meant that those anbiya actually drew lots with those questions (cos they didnt) but answering them will expose what was actually forbiden in respect to divination & thats what the antagonists do not want addressed.

As for YUNUS (as) he got no choice whether he agreed to cast or not he is still gonna get thrown over board coz GOD really wanted him in the belly of that fish So, even if he refused they will suspect him & throw him noni.

^^

There was prohibition of visiting graves at the begining but it was later on relaxed.

^^^
I believe matter of faith is very subtle, and great care has to be taking at such. The prophet (saw) prohibiting sahaba from visiting graves initially has to do with protection of their FAITH so to say as you rightfully pointed out earlier. And any form of similarities drawn from Prophets telling people about fortune does not necessarily have INHERENT DANGER that would arise if sought from other means.

Seeking means to know the future of man destiny(fortune Telling) by any other means EXCEPT through Prophets, and RUYA sadiqa (through prayer or istikhara) would always present the DANGER of falling to shirk, hence ISLAM advent enshew any other methods employ in accessing such knowledge even there were some elements of their efficacies or precedents.

This bring us to the LOFTY STATION of TAWAQUL in which man see nothing other than ALLAH as the sole AGENCY for any means, hence the need to approach HIM only through prayers. And this exactly what the
Holy Prophet (saw) demonstrated during his life time. So, in my opinion this has to do essentially about training us for higher IDEALS,(by negating or "forbidden" us other means e.g geomancy etc in this age), so that we can become such a thorough BELIEVER that will bring the REAL FORTUNE of entering JANAT without any form QUESTIONING or ACCOUNTABILITY on the day of judgement. Reserved for MUTAWAKAL.

Like one sahaba said that holy Prophet (saw) used to teched them ISTIKHARA or to perform istikhara in ALL matters as he(saw) used to tech them chapters of holy Qur'an. So, by very nature we are hasty and curious to know what future holds for everyone of us, and the sure UNADULTERATED MEANS to ACCESS such now should be through prayers NOT by any other means. If perhaps time has ripe for such same would have been approved by holy Prophet (saw) like the way he did for visiting graves. Allahu Alam.

Thanks.

LadunaI:
^^^
I believe matter of faith is very subtle, and great care has to be taking at such. The prophet (saw) prohibiting sahaba from visiting graves initially has to do with protection of their FAITH so to say as you rightfully pointed out earlier. And any form of similarities drawn from Prophets telling people about fortune does not necessarily have INHERENT DANGER that would arise if sought from other means.

Seeking means to know the future of man destiny(fortune Telling) by any other means EXCEPT through Prophets, and RUYA sadiqa (through prayer or istikhara) would always present the DANGER of falling to shirk, hence ISLAM advent enshew any other methods employ in accessing such knowledge even there were some elements of their efficacies or precedents.

This bring us to the LOFTY STATION of TAWAQUL in which man see nothing other than ALLAH as the sole AGENCY for any means, hence the need to approach HIM only through prayers. And this exactly what the
Holy Prophet (saw) demonstrated during his life time. So, in my opinion this has to do essentially about training us for higher IDEALS,(by negating or "forbidden" us other means e.g geomancy etc in this age), so that we can become such a thorough BELIEVER that will bring the REAL FORTUNE of entering JANAT without any form QUESTIONING or ACCOUNTABILITY on the day of judgement. Reserved for MUTAWAKAL.

Like one sahaba said that holy Prophet (saw) used to teched them ISTIKHARA or to perform istikhara in ALL matters as he(saw) used to tech them chapters of holy Qur'an. So, by very nature we are hasty and curious to know what future holds for everyone of us, and the sure UNADULTERATED MEANS to ACCESS such now should be through prayers NOT by any other means. If perhaps time has ripe for such same would have been approved by holy Prophet (saw) like the way he did for visiting graves. Allahu Alam.

Thanks.

Barakallahu feeka... May Allah increase us in beneficial knowledge

@LadunaI

Good analysis. I like that angle of TAWAKKUL you brought, part of the reasons the scholars usually discourage people from trying to inquire into destiny.

In addition to the questions up there,

#What is the difference in someone using e.g. ultrascan or geomancy or lottery or istikhara to determine the sex & D.O.B of an unborn baby ?

#The ensuing unknown results, from who are they going to come from ?

#What actually validates a means of inquiry & what invalidates the other ?

Noting that NOBODY can get to know what GOD doesnt want to be known, no matter how one tries to dig.

Narrowing down these indices of controversies surrounding inquiry into destiny will then bring us to the real reason that prompted the saying of that hadith by the NABI (saw).

This is a dicey situation, anyways I'm always learning.
Someone should also create a thread about visiting graves, cos I don't seem to understand why women are forbidden to visit graves and d male counterparts are allowed.

Both ladunal and ikupakuti's views are correct. Before the emergence of technology, especially in Nigeria, there was no way of knowing sex of a child in the womb until after birth. We used to ask (for those who were not present) is he male or female?. Today, we ask this question just weeks into pregancy. Even it is mother everybody asks this question today before the baby is born. And she tells what it is.

We are now faced with challenges as to why Allah would say "no one know what's in the womb". Scientists would think they have met Quranic challenge by employment of new technology which determines sex in the womb.

This means we will have to seek to understand what Quran truly means by that verse. Sheikh Akindele was posed this question in one of his lectures. His interpretation was that the ayah was speaking about destiny of what is in the womb which no one knows. And we know destiny is breakdown. Geomancy or not, istiqara or not, muslims generally lack spiritual and technological faculty today. We should be the ones leading this modern tech today if only we understood these intricacies a lot better.

Weather man doesn't do istiqara (2rakat) before telling us conditions of weather in days to come. This is very challenging. We know they aren't perfect when they forecast. That's normal. But if we insist that the hadith allegedly forbids fortune telling as a whole, then, the implication is that listening to weather man telling us 5 days forecast, snow tomorrow etc and we believe in it, then, the consequences mentioned in the hadith is binding on this too and unfortunately, many of us are guilty.

In the West, whether you are muslim or not, lots of people turn on tv to check the weather before going out. Although it is made easy now on our phones. One touch and weather comes on to tell you if you need umbrella or not, if you need heavy jacket or not. This got me thinking isn't the same with Alawo checking on his 'baba' to see if today will good and great or not?. Why don't Muslims and non-Muslims in the west rely on Allah and go out like that? . And on your way home from work you get wet in the rain. You be like 'I should have checked the weather'. This happens a lot.



The reason we tend to see both differently is bcus we consider the former religious matter. The later mundane. But nabi (saw) did not distinguish.


Walahu alam

Raintaker:
This is a dicey situation, anyways I'm always learning.
Someone should also create a thread about visiting graves, cos I don't seem to understand why women are forbidden to visit graves and d male counterparts are allowed.

opinions vary. Been hearing this since childhood. There is hadith that forbade women from visiting graves.

But there is hadith that generally allows everyone to do so. Hence it could mean there are conditions for them for different reasons. You need elaborate tafsir on this.

@empiree

Now, thats thought provoking! We Muslims tend to pretend alot.

It is either we all go down together, charged with SHIRK in respect to the verdict of that hadith or we look for the real reason behind it.

Today, we muslims dont do istikhara to know BP, Pregnancy, weather, sex & DOD, diagnose diseases, life expectancy etc we rely on a system that doesnt do istikhara also but uses calculations (same as geomancy), but we want to condemn one & pretend about the other.

The type of damage control that sheikh gave up there is what make atheists laugh at religionists. Now someone is saying gender is not part of ones destiny in other to “defend“ GOD ?

Very soon, technological advancement will get to a stage where spirits will be created & infused into a body & will function like a real human. Watch how muslims will start re-twisting verses of the QURAN to accommodate the new developement & “defend“ GOD. Many will lost their faith. Imagine defending someone you call GOD everytime those we call KUFAR show us how to use our brains!

And GOD is GLORIFIED above all blemishes! His words & attributes are perfect! We will only endup defending our faulty understanding of his words & not him.

THE BANE OF WE MUSLIMS IS PURITANICAL PRETENSIONS

If a muslim today should develope a computation system from the letters of the verses of the QURAN, for prediction & divination, you will see how ULAMA all over the world will be issuing FATWAs condemning the practice, asking for daleel from hadith or from practices of the salafs in utilizing the QURAN for such! They will continue running him down, while the KUFAR whites will court him, learn from him, enhance it & use it to enslave the muslims the more & those muslims will start patronizing such system from the KUFARS without questioning its source.

WE ARE A VERY BIG LAUGH!

Lol, this already happened

Very soon, technological advancement will get to a stage where spirits will be created & infused into a body & will function like a real human.

but they are making come back again soon after yrs of silence. I remember when scientists came up with is i think around 2005/06, it appears to be in conflict with Quran. Muslim Americans argued it down. Thats closed now but made a come back about 2yrs ago in NY. Right now, this tech is being used by the rich and govt privately just like computer was used 40yrs by govt before it was made public.

Even a verse which speaks of using stars to navigate trip(ship), we dont even invent anything in this respect. Them kufar did. We only read text mechanically.

I cant agree more with fatwa thing you mentioned up there. I repeat, that, Quran is for the past, present and future and it explains ALL things (Nahl 89). The implication is that Quran might have explained this technological advancement. I believe those shuyukh grasped the message to the best of their ability. We need to start where they stopped.

^^^

Pls I need a link to any article on that.

Muslims are just getting dumber by the day, refusing advancement in the name of religion they understand not. They think leaving superanuted tafseers amounts to bid‘a. Wherever GOD said that ?

Empiree:
opinions vary. Been hearing this since childhood. There is hadith that forbade women from visiting graves.

But there is hadith that generally allows everyone to do so. Hence it could mean there are conditions for them for different reasons. You need elaborate tafsir on this.

Please can you help create a thread for the elaborate tafsir on this issue?.




D matter just confuse me.

I forgot about this phrase when i was tyoing. What i was talking about is called artificial intelligence and human computer interaction

https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&rlz=1CASMAE_enUS679US679&q=human+computer+interaction+vs+artificial+intelligence&oq=artificial+intelligence+and+human+computer+interaction&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i71k1l4.0.0.0.19515.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0.SimMETvTClw

This is short pdf but not comprehensive enough. Still looking out

http://hen-drik.de/pub/Heuer%20-%20On%20The%20Intersection%20Of%20Human-Computer%20Interaction%20(HCI)%20And%20Artificial%20Intelligence%20(AI).pdf

Raintaker:
Please can you help create a thread for the elaborate tafsir on this issue?.




D matter just confuse me.

Albaqir is your best man on this, then we can contribute. He will soon be here

Our alfas are right

Empiree:
I forgot about this phrase when i was tyoing. What i was talking about is called artificial intelligence and human computer interaction

https://www.google.com/search?safe=strict&rlz=1CASMAE_enUS679US679&q=human+computer+interaction+vs+artificial+intelligence&oq=artificial+intelligence+and+human+computer+interaction&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i71k1l4.0.0.0.19515.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1..64.psy-ab..0.0.0.SimMETvTClw

This is short pdf but not comprehensive enough. Still looking out

http://hen-drik.de/pub/Heuer%20-%20On%20The%20Intersection%20Of%20Human-Computer%20Interaction%20(HCI)%20And%20Artificial%20Intelligence%20(AI).pdf

No. I knew about artificial intelligence. I‘m talking about creating a ruh from scratch & infusing it in a new or dead body to resurrect it or trapping a ruh @ the point of exit (death) in a vial or something & then create a new body (carrier) & then merge the two together, the new human will now possess the mental/spiritual capabilities of the former vessel of that recycled ruh.

There are many things we think are big deals due to our limited understanding of the word of GOD but are actually not.

When GOD says hes the one that does/did something or he has power over everything or can do anything, we dont actually understand what such implies.

Empiree:
Our alfas are right

The sad part is that, thats where it usually ends, no follow up. You will never find one scientific theory expounded from this fact, why ? coz there is no evidence from the salafs

ikupakuti:


No. I knew about artificial intelligence. I‘m talking about creating a ruh from scratch & infusing it in a new or dead body to resurrect it or trapping a ruh @ the point of exit (death) in a vial or something & then create a new body (carrier) & then merge the two together, the new human will now possess the mental/spiritual capabilities of the former vessel of that recycled ruh.

There are many things we think are big deals due to our limited understanding of the word of GOD but are actually not.

When GOD says hes the one that does/did something or he has power over everything or can do anything, we dont actually understand what such implies.

Ha, now i understand. humm they are getting there or most likely they are already. If they can shut down the heart to perform surgery, and bring it back to life thereafter, i won't be surprised about this. Or with lot of fake people walking around with skin of deaman or pig, this is only matter of time. Will research this to see if there is anythign available

Empiree:
Ha, now i understand. humm they are getting there or most likely they are already. If they can shut down the heart to perform surgery, and bring it back to life thereafter, i won't be surprised about this. Or with lot of fake people walking around with skin of deaman or pig, this is only matter of time. Will research this to see if there is anythign available

Thanks. That shutting down of the heart is really a big step in that direction. It‘ll be easier by using the jinns (by using the QAREEN) of a dead person. Since the QAREEN is like the OS of the human. The jinns have being doing this for long. Thats the stunt that Jinn pulled on Sulaiman (as). Q38:34 He created a replica of him & enter into it. All the concept of akudaya, abiku etc fall into that line.

If the whites had believed in GOD & revelation, only GOD knows in what level of sophistication the human race would be in today.

@empiree

Actually Ikupakuti has comprehensively treated the issue of SEX of unborn child under GHAIB, and an attempt to say that is referring to destiny according to shk Akindele only amount to shifting the goal post, so NO need for that. Hence, at a point in time ALLAH might disclose such hidden knowledge, and yet, that doesn't anyway diminish HIS MONOPOLISTIC ASCENDANCY as sole KNOWER OF GHAIB.

However, the way people treated or believe spiritual matters are completely different with their dealing with physical phenomenon. So the idea of scan, weather forecast would NOT be necessarily weighty in the mind of people compare to REAL FORTUNE telling, like trying knowing what future holds in term of wealth, happiness etc that has been thru ages.

Also, there is certain system or solution ALLAH has created to solve certain problem without needs to re-invent the wheel. So idea of Artificial Intelligence AI and Machine Learning ML making waves now is an attempt to make some sophisticated forecast from Big Data as we have it today. But that in my few only trying to discover some of hidden pattern or trend that are not apparent. So what this system will forecast will only amaze people NOT really make them believe in imaginary being that a DIRECT encounter with fortune teller would bring.

Thanks

@ikupakuti,

another thing is Credit Report and Credit Score. That thing is used in the West to determine worthiness of individual. Without it, no one may know anything about you. Credit is programmed exactly like fortune telling or the like. It is exactly like "awon iya aye" those people seek to see worthiness of their target(s).

If you call a bank to apply for a loan, any types of loan, they only need your number, age and sometimes, your mother's maiden name. Sounds familiar?. ALfa, Alawo, pastor, etc use this isnt?. Exactly they do this in the West and muslim who condemn categories of karada dont say anything about this simply bcus they see it as a mere worldly stuff. Anyways, bank officer will get those infos and tell you what you worth.

Once they pull ur infos, there is nothing else you can hide unless you do stuff off the book. Criminal record, marriage, relatives, job, websites you registered with you name them. They see all of them.

Exactly if awon Aje wantt o get info, they are both designed identically.

LadunaI:
@empiree

Actually Ikupakuti has comprehensively treated the issue of SEX of unborn child under GHAIB, and an attempt to say that is referring to destiny according to shk Akindele only amount to shifting the goal post, so NO need for that. Hence, at a point in time ALLAH might disclose such hidden knowledge, and yet, that doesn't anyway diminish HIS MONOPOLISTIC ASCENDANCY as sole KNOWER OF GHAIB.

However, the way people treated or believe spiritual matters are completely different with their dealing with physical phenomenon. So the idea of scan, weather forecast would NOT be necessarily weighty in the mind of people compare to REAL FORTUNE telling, like trying knowing what future holds in term of wealth, happiness etc that has been thru ages.

Also, there is certain system or solution ALLAH has created to solve certain problem without needs to re-invent the wheel. So idea of Artificial Intelligence AI and Machine Learning ML making waves now is an attempt to make some sophisticated forecast from Big Data as we have it today. But that in my few only trying to discover some of hidden pattern or trend that are not apparent. So what this system will forecast will only amaze people NOT really make them believe in imaginary being that a DIRECT encounter with fortune teller would bring.

Thanks

Interesting..noted

See what i just posted up there about credit, that just reminds me of my years in ilorin. I had issue of spiritual battle with someone very close and i didnt know i "offended" her. I dont think if it appropriate to tell this but i really dont care after all. Ths credit thing is not necessarily fortune telling but gleaning info. It is equivalent to people obtaining someone else's info as done in yorubaland. I remembered meeting a man back then telling me i cant hide anything from him. It was crazy

@LadunaI

Thats one of the major cause of confussion. Muslims trying to dissect spiritual life of the muslims & that of his physical but go on to say ISLAM is a total way of life, isnt that confussion ? Where did GOD ever seperate the two ? They imply they control their physical affairs while GOD controls the spiritual, isnt that SHIRK ? Sharing acts with GOD ?

Empiree:
@ikupakuti,

another thing is Credit Report and Credit Score. That thing is used in the West to determine worthiness of individual. Without it, no one may know anything about you. Credit is programmed exactly like fortune telling or the like. It is exactly like "awon iya aye" those people seek to see worthiness of their target(s).

If you call a bank to apply for a loan, any types of loan, they only need your number, age and sometimes, your mother's maiden name. Sounds familiar?. ALfa, Alawo, pastor, etc use this isnt?. Exactly they do this in the West and muslim who condemn categories of karada dont say anything about this simply bcus they see it as a mere worldly stuff. Anyways, bank officer will get those infos and tell you what you worth.

Once they pull ur infos, there is nothing else you can hide unless you do stuff off the book. Criminal record, marriage, relatives, job, websites you registered with you name them. They see all of them.

Exactly if awon Aje wantt o get info, they are both designed identically.

Lols @ awon iya aye

Now look @ that! If one goes to a fortuneteller to get to know his worthiness it becomes bid‘a We are only decieving ourselves. If they should improve on this system, they will even predict for the unborns.

#Check out how FIRAOUN pulled out MUSA‘S data before he was even concieved! Everthing came out clean! But did his foreknowledge stopped the will of GOD from coming to pass ? No!

#Does it make him GOD ? No!

#Who released the info for access ? same GOD!

Empiree:
See what i just posted up there about credit, that just reminds me of my years in ilorin. I had issue of spiritual battle with someone very close and i didnt know i "offended" her. I dont think if it appropriate to tell this but i really dont care after all. Ths credit thing is not necessarily fortune telling but gleaning info. It is equivalent to people obtaining someone else's info as done in yorubaland. I remembered meeting a man back then telling me i cant hide anything from him. It was crazy

Lols some people do have that ability whether naturally or otherwise, they‘ll read out your destiny for you in one long sentence. Imagine if someone could codify its algorithms into a system attach a camera/scan, once a person comes into view, all the details of his destiny will come on screen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199SLrAhk80

Awesome discussion here.

What do you guys think about all these people that meet you in public places like buses or road side for the first time and they still tell you about yourself and what you should do or stay away from. Someone you've never met before faa.
Some of them are from all these white garment churches. Some do not even Look like spiritual people.
I have also observed that some of these white garment churches have some special people who stay indoors and fast for days. when they eventually come out, they start giving prophecies.

I really don't know where the inspiration comes from but I'm sure they always direct their prayers to GOD throughout the fasting period.

Please note I'm not talking about some people who use satanic rituals or incense to get prophecies because I know it can't be trusted coz of it's source ie devil and jinns.

Empiree (You led me to the works of Imran Hosein, Dr. Iqbal and other gifted scholars)

Ikupakuti (You remain an "endangered specie" sir)

Ladunal

Al-Baqir

And others

You guys have really inspired me to penetrate this deen. Thanks!!

Prior this, I've been conjuring images deduced from the literal meaning of the Qur'an... (flying donkey, mountain of Gold, Gog and Magog et al not immediately realizing that they are: an aeroplane, Oil and the Christian Euro-Jewish civilization respectively).

However, I have a question, can a human (non-Muslim; Christian actually) be endowed with the gift of prediction without no prior spiritual exercise (Tahajjud, zikr etc) and be able to tell future of another person (such as the lifespan and the affection of Allah towards such a person).

You scholars explained the concept, but I couldn't grasp it much. Please, simplify it for "keen learners" like us. Thanks again.

I still have other questions after.

Empiree:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=199SLrAhk80

I totally agree with Sheikh Hamza. Those that demand equity must come with clean hands also.

The truth is, every ideal no matter how sound it is, is bound to degenerate with time & those the devil usually uses are the ignorants.

Like he asserted, things are in hierarchical order. Its ISLAM then IMAN then IHSAN. But today, people want to jump the first two & claim the third whereas those two are the preliminaries/foundations upon which the third was established.

But, then there will always be bad eggs in all sects, even among the deviants, some would still deviate from the original course of deviation. People who dont want to pay their dues before claiming credits. Reason I dont associate with those noise makers.

******
But why dont the WAHABIS like being addressed as WAHABIS ? Are they ashamed of his legacy ni ? They practice a form of ISLAM taught by ibn abdulwahab, isnt it? By hijacking the term SALAFI to themselves, they are indirectly insinuating that others muslims aint SALAFIS which is derogatory & thats one of their tricks.