If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

A timeless/eternal Being has no beginning and no end.

Timelessness excuses a being from being created.

Something that has been existing since forever has no beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

If something has no beginning, it simply means it was not created.

That you ask who created God means you propose that God has a beginning. Eternity has no beginning. You can see the definition of eternal which I posted above.

It's difficult to grasp because we have never seen anything like this. Our thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how hard we try. It's always okay to try though.

Everything that has beginning also has ending, Human created time as some kind of measurement, that kind of time you have in mind has no beginning or ending thereby real time does not exist

obinna58:
Everything that has beginning also has ending, Human created time as some kind of measurement, that kind of time you have in mind has no beginning or ending thereby real time does not exist

How about those things that have no beginning for instance, nothing we have ever seen

Well, nice theory. We should still agree that there was a time point when all these began and there was something already in existence independent of creation or points of existence.

I think real time does exist, I disagree with those who say it doesn't.

winner01:
How about those things that have no beginning for instance, nothing we have ever seen

Well, nice theory. We should still agree that there was a time point when all these began and there was something already in existence independent of creation or points of existence.

I think real time does exist, I disagree with those who say it doesn't.

you think time exist only because you believe in God?

obinna58:


you think time exist only because you believe in God?

Not at all. You recognized the importance of time when you alledged that humans created time as some kind of measurement. And measurement is important to ascribe value to matter. Humans are valuable beings and we do believe ourselves to be valuable beings even though some think Otherwise.

You're right. Specific units have no meaning if they are not measured. Values are made meaningful by quantifying into individual units. Measurement is made meaningful only with the existence of time.

winner01:
Not at all. You recognized the importance of time when you alledged that humans created time as some kind of measurement. And measurement is important to ascribe value to matter. Humans are valuable beings and we do believe ourselves to be valuable beings even though some think Otherwise.

You're right. Specific units have no meaning if they are not measured. Values are made meaningful by quantifying into individual units. Measurement is made meaningful only with the existence of time.

What else can be the importance of time if not for measurement only, I think you are going all round to backup your claims

A really valid question

You cannot assert that it is impossible for nothing to result to something yet concluded something called god came out from nothing. That is a sincere insincerity in argument.

Time and space are human constructs. Since we can't determine when the universe was created, which must have been possibly created before the time construct was created, we can therefore conclude the universe existed independent of time and space!

You mentioned that "Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all". But you have use the word prior to distinguish between a TIME the universe existed, and a TIME it never existed, thereby defeating that argument.

Lastly, looking at all these things you have said about god, tell me, why can't we say same of the universe? What made it invalid for the latter and not so to the former?

obinna58:

What else can be the importance of time if not for measurement only, I think you are going all round to backup your claims

I do not understand. You sound so absolute about time. Do you know something I don't. Please enlighten me.

uzoclinton:
A really valid question

Okay.


Many Atheists seem to lack understanding about the meaning of the words "eternal" or "infinite."

Who created God? No one. The Creator had no need of a creator. He is "the uncaused cause" that logic proves must exist as the cause of the cosmos. God is eternal and infinite. He has always existed.

This idea is even explained in his name: I AM THAT I AM. (Exodus 3:14)

God — I AM — had no beginning, and will have no end. He exists infinitely. His power is also infinite. His intelligence is infinite.

How is it possible? God is immaterial and therefore, not limited by laws that apply to the material world. God is a spirit. (John 4:24) A spirit is immaterial.

If you can't comprehend what "infinite" means, simply try to accept it as something beyond your understanding. To assume you can potentially understand everything would be an example of excessive pride anyway. There are some things we will never understand as finite beings with finite capabilities. To fully comprehend the eternal and infinite are prime examples of our limitations.

The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know. Perhaps the universe is God.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

winner01:
A timeless/eternal Being has no beginning and no end.

Timelessness excuses a being from being created.

Something that has been existing since forever has no beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

If something has no beginning, it simply means it was not created.

That you ask who created God means you propose that God has a beginning. Eternity has no beginning. You can see the definition of eternal which I posted above.

It's difficult to grasp because we have never seen anything like this. Our thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how hard we try. It's always okay to try though.

When a theist is arguing with an atheist, theists don't waste time to acknowledge an intelligent design, to them, everything has a creator and so are humans.

God is an intelligent being, how did he come about? What prompted his existence? If God was created,who created his creator? If something triggered him into existence, what triggered the trigger? Trying to grasp this mystery of NO BEGINNING and NO END can spin our mortal mind. It's beyond our human comprehendsion. For there to be an effect, there must be a cause. But in the case of God, you might be looking at endless strings of infinity. Looking for the BEGINNING of life is like looking for the end of numbers. Some things are simply beyond us no matter how we grow in knowledge and enlightenment.

chemystery:
You cannot assert that it is impossible for nothing to result to something yet concluded something called god came out from nothing. That is a sincere insincerity in argument.

Something exists, our universe. We do not know how it has come to exist. Something seems sure though, that nothing does not produce something. I'm not being absolute on this but I'm just writing based on what we have seen and observed in real life. If there is a theory worth looking at, which proves that something can come from nothing, please submit it here.

chemystery:

Time and space are human constructs. Since we can't determine when the universe was created, which must have been possibly created before the time construct was created, we can therefore conclude the universe existed independent of time and space!

You sound so absolute on the issue of time and space. It's the same thing you accuse religious people of. Absolutism.

Now you have also brought space into the picture. Are you saying there must have been a space within which the universe was not created? Space is something you know, not nothing. What makes you so sure that space is also a human construct. You sound so sure too, I'm willing to learn.
And I'm not concluding anything, I'm simply sharing my views on why I think a question is invalid.

chemystery:

You mentioned that "Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all". But you have use the word prior to distinguish between a TIME the universe existed, and a TIME it never existed, thereby defeating that argument.

You're correct, and it's because I'm human. I've pointed that out earlier. I, like many other people cannot seem to come to terms with the fact that "there was a time in which time never existed". Hell I don't even know the correct grammatical expression to explain a "time in which time never existed".
Just like you my thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how wild.
Timelessness is something we've never experienced. It's okay if it makes no sense to us. The Creator did not seem to leave us the ability of grasping the idea of timelessness or even nothing. The human idea of nothing is still something.

chemystery:

Lastly, looking at all these things you have said about god, tell me, why can't we say same of the universe? What made it invalid for the latter and not so to the former?

We might not be able to say the same for the universe simply because of reasons I've put forth earlier.
1. The universe (something) began to exist
2. In our own capacity so far, we haven't been able to observe or demonstrate that nothing can bring forth something.
3. Something or Someone must have always existed that brought forth the universe that now exists
4. This Something or Someone is most likely independent of the features we have observed in the universe
5. Our thoughts (and opinions on time and space) no matter how wild exists within the confines of what we have observed in the universe
6. If our thoughts exists only within the confines of a created universe, then It might be safe to say that the idea of no time, no space is impossible for a human to entirely grasp since he is within the confines of time and space.
7. The Something or Someone who brought forth or created the universe exists independently of what we know or have ever seen. This Creator exists outside the logic of His creation.
8. Something exists and we know this for sure at least. Something can't come from nothing except we modify our idea of nothing. This is what we know. However you must admit that what we know is within the confines of this created universe.
9. If Something can't come from nothing then we must agree that Something or Someone powerful existed before this universe where we have found ourselves.
10. We can also agree that the origin and existence of this Powerful Something or Someone is beyond our knowledge, since our knowledge cannot run beyond the confines of creation
11. I propose however that this powerful Something or Someone did not leave this area open to us, the fact that we are debating this is enough proof. Hence the question on the origin of such Powerful Something or Someone is invalid.

Who created God ? God cannot be created.

What is God ? Indestructible Energy/ Power/ infinite possibilities/ the great illusionist/ creation itself is God, Creation and the creator are one and the same

The OP is God, so are his words.His words are expressions and reflections of him. I am God, so are my words, they make or break me. Everything is God, God means "Power", we all have power.

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

This is not an assumption. I'm only stating that the Bible describes God as having always existed and Christians rightfully submit this. I didn't form these things out of my head.

Lol. We do not all know that the Bible is an impeccable source of information. That is a bogus statement.
Call it dogma, but some people seem to have concluded in their hearts that humans created the time and space constructs.

NPComplete:

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know.

Simple. We seem to now know that the universe has not always existed, thanks to Science.

And I like what you said "our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited.

Maybe we know what we are supposed to know. I believe there is a lot we are still supposed to know.

NPComplete:

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Well, I've made my point. And you do know that many of those theories you put up there have been proposed. It's okay though. If our imaginations were not allowed to run wild, it wouldn't have been created.

HenryDion:


When a theist is arguing with an atheist, theists don't waste time to acknowledge an intelligent design, to them, everything has a creator and so are humans.

God is an intelligent being, how did he come about? What prompted his existence? If God was created,who created his creator? If something triggered him into existence, what triggered the trigger? Trying to grasp this mystery of NO BEGINNING and NO END can spin our mortal mind. It's beyond our human comprehendsion. For there to be an effect, there must be a cause. But in the case of God, you might be looking at endless strings of infinity. Looking for the BEGINNING of life is like looking for the end of numbers. Some things are simply beyond us to matter how we grow in knowledge and enlightenment.

I think you have summed this up yourself my friend.

"Trying to grasp this mystery of NO BEGINNING and NO END can spin our mortal mind."

ifenes:
Who created God ? God cannot be created.

What is God ? Indestructible Energy/ Power/ infinite possibilities/ the great illusionist/ creation itself is God, Creation and the creator are one and the same

The OP is God, so are his words.His words are expressions and reflections of him. I am God, so are my words, they make or break me. Everything is God, God means "Power", we all have power.

Longest time ifeness. Good to know you still uphold your theories. You should have written a book on them by now.

God is uncreated. He is the creator and not creature.

na so
you guys don't af anytin to say

cc Wordword can you throw more light on this?

Lol

No one created God
Below is a proof from the Gorious Quran Chapter 112:

1. Say: He is Allah (God), the One and Only
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him.

useless question.

Imperfect state of a homo sapiens makes your question itself invalid. God/creator/Allah is the perfect being. Therefore, God is the author and finisher, he can neither be created nor uncreated.

I don't see sanity in any human being that denies his imperfectability. Meanwhile, one's acknowledgement of his imperfection renders all credal, revealable and dogmatic religion in particular and any other form of religion meaningless.

The presence of subconscious makes every homo sapiens a spiritual being. This validates the importance of spirituality and rubbishes any importance attached to religion.

We did. Man created God or a god in his own image. All beliefs, concepts, ideas and insinuation are created by man.

We are still creating new ones for children that will be born in 3027.

Not all questions are meant to be answered,