winner01:
Something exists, our universe. We do not know how it has come to exist. Something seems sure though, that nothing does not produce something. I'm not being absolute on this but I'm just writing based on what we have seen and observed in real life. If there is a theory worth looking at, which proves that something can come from nothing, please submit it here.

If you agree that nothing does not produce something, why assert that something called god came into existence out of nothing and from nowhere? It's either you are confusing yourself or you don't want to be sincere with yourself. You have to choose one between "nothing results to something" or "nothing cannot result to something" and apply it throughout your argument than cherry picking on what your choice applies to and what it doesn't. That is insincerity!
What is wrong in saying "I don't know" by the way?

You sound so absolute on the issue of time and space. It's the same thing you accuse religious people of. Absolutism.

Now you have also brought space into the picture. Are you saying there must have been a space within which the universe was not created? Space is something you know, not nothing. What makes you so sure that space is also a human construct. You sound so sure too, I'm willing to learn.
And I'm not concluding anything, I'm simply sharing my views on why I think a question is invalid.

Now you want to create a new argument on space.
Who defines space and what it is? Is it not humans?
Why then do you want to argue space isn't human construct?
Maybe it is a supernatural construct I guess. You can tell me more

You're correct, and it's because I'm human. I've pointed that out earlier. I, like many other people cannot seem to come to terms with the fact that "there was a time in which time never existed". Hell I don't even know the correct grammatical expression to explain a "time in which time never existed".
Just like you my thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how wild.
Timelessness is something we've never experienced. It's okay if it makes no sense to us. The Creator did not seem to leave us the ability of grasping the idea of timelessness or even nothing. The human idea of nothing is still something.

You don't know and you don't know! So don't blame it on grammar.
You also want to blame it on your human instinct. All these while you have been explaining what you don't know as if you are an extraterrestrial being you didn't know you are human, right?

The time when time never existed(if such time ever existed) is on its own a time! There is no 'magomago' about it

We might not be able to say the same for the universe simply because of reasons I've put forth earlier.
1. The universe (something) began to exist

Even god too began to exist. How did I know? Same way you knew the universe began to exist

2. In our own capacity so far, we haven't been able to observe or demonstrate that nothing can bring forth something.

I agree! Same way something called god cannot emerge from nothing!

3. Something or Someone must have always existed that brought forth the universe that now exists

Something that existed out of nothing abi?

4. This Something or Someone is most likely independent of the features we have observed in the universe

Likely? You are not even sure of this something. Then on the other hand, that something might most likely be dependent as well.

5. Our thoughts (and opinions on time and space) no matter how wild exists within the confines of what we have observed in the universe

But you want to use same thought to define something you claim existed outside the confines of the universe.

6. If our thoughts exists only within the confines of a created universe, then It might be safe to say that the idea of no time, no space is impossible for a human to entirely grasp since he is within the confines of time and space.

But this is not the case for you, for you can define things that existed outside the confines of time and space. You must be a genius!

7. The Something or Someone who brought forth or created the universe exists independently of what we know or have ever seen. This Creator exists outside the logic of His creation.

Saying he exists outside the logic of his creation makes me wonder if you are not his creation. Cos it was withing your logic to know this.

8. Something exists and we know this for sure at least. Something can't come from nothing except we modify our idea of nothing. This is what we know. However you must admit that what we know is within the confines of this created universe.

Again But something called god came out of nothing na?

9. If Something can't come from nothing then we must agree that Something or Someone powerful existed before this universe where we have found ourselves.

It is better we don't make that assertion but simply admit we don't know! You are only trying hard to find quick and cheap answers to what you don't know. Relax!

10. We can also agree that the origin and existence of this Powerful Something or Someone is beyond our knowledge, since our knowledge cannot run beyond the confines of creation

if this is true, then you have been spending your time to explain what you don't know. Why not use the three words I DONT KNOW?

11. I propose however that this powerful Something or Someone did not leave this area open to us, the fact that we are debating this is enough proof. Hence the question on the origin of such Powerful Something or Someone is invalid.

don't be shy to say I DONT KNOW!

NPComplete:
The first problem is assuming God has always existed. There's no proof for God always existing other than some verses in the bible. And we all know the bible has never been an impeccable source of information.
So that assumption is an argument from dogma.

Secondly if we are to believe that God has always existed, why is it hard to believe the universe has always existed in whatever form before it became the form we know of it now. Maybe this form we know of it is just our mental projection. And since our brains can't see beyond 3 spatial dimensions, it is plausible that our understanding of space time is skewed and limited. The universe may also be eternal for all we know.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with God Himself having a creator. I can live with it. And I imagine it is possible we also become creators ourselves after we leave this life. It might just be that that's the essence of life. Life birthing more life. Creators creating and getting created. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If you ask who created God, then you will ask who created the person that created God, and the questions keep piling up.

As a true Christian, you shouldn't question God and his creation.

this is a simple question. man rational way of thinking (logic) has great limit. he has beginning and end so he do not understand what it means not to have a beginning and end. I have severally challenged by atheist Friends to tell me how the universe begins and how it will end many have run for cover. what ever way you look at it God or no God man cannot understand the meaning of no beginning, or anything out of the ordinary that is why they are ignorant of spiritual stuffs. man cannot understand that they are beings that are not seen (spirits) because he apply only logic like is animal counterpart. but the ability of man to ponder deep things of creation is a clear indication of another aspect of man that set him apart from animals

Kingluqman89:
No one created God
Below is a proof from the Gorious Quran Chapter 112:

1. Say: He is Allah (God), the One and Only
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him.

more like proof of man's gullibility. you are telling it us, it is true simply because it is in a book we cant authenticate, a book that demands one just baseless believe. puhlsss last i checked there are several religious books and each one claims it is the only true one.

winner01:
A timeless/eternal Being has no beginning and no end.

Timelessness excuses a being from being created.

Something that has been existing since forever has no beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

If something has no beginning, it simply means it was not created.

That you ask who created God means you propose that God has a beginning. Eternity has no beginning. You can see the definition of eternal which I posted above.

It's difficult to grasp because we have never seen anything like this. Our thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how hard we try. It's always okay to try though.

A God who depends on man's sacrifices and praise must have been created. A God who gets angry, gets jealous, shows regrets, must have human nature.

Also, if God created us distinct from himself, how come he seems dependent upon us? Because, I still don't understand why He has to create us just so we can praise him and know his word.

Very nice piece. God bless you op

Nice post. But I love how you categorically stated that there is 'no observable evidence' for the multiverse theory. that logic alone could have saved you writing the whole of this thread? As all that you asserted; from existence of God to his timelessness falls in the same category of speculation. There is not a single observable evidence. Christians try to play the atheist game of critical reasoning but somehow expect their doctrines and beliefs not to be held to such logical standards.

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

you are still using only logic. God that created you did not give you that information. you only know what you are told

Rhetorical question.
Its just like playing candy crush.
U cant go back to levels
And game has no end

He is the begining and the end. No logic can fathom that!

In the end,you ended up explaining English words rather than explaining your topic.

Any argument for the existence of an eternal being can also be extended for an
eternal universe.

what kinda question is this on a sunday morning
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5907389_58548374744379c0b3cd3c421042dc8ea192550a6d1f561478000000d90905cbe8tmpjpeg682b3be36e3891ad46fa8e298b0932f1jpeg0f8092d72a4b4bd04802e23c2db9109e_jpeg3ad7acc05d357e2313fe9ecb6c29ad85

If theists are so easily accepting of a possibility that God has no creator, why do they insist that man must have one, and pose that as the basis for the existence of God?

Maybe there is no such thing as "nothing". Maybe there's is only "all that there is", changing forms through an infinite medium. Beginnings and endings are only transitive points. Maybe human beings are not the raison d'être for the universe and we are only now living in the "age of man". Maybe a higher intelligence will make this world its own one day, and impose on it its own moral code, just like we are doing now at the expense of other living things (if plants ruled the world it would be immoral to walk on grass). And that new morality will have the name of the new God. Because God is the embodiment of human egoism.

winner01:
How about those things that have no beginning for instance, nothing we have ever seen

Well, nice theory. We should still agree that there was a time point when all these began and there was something already in existence independent of creation or points of existence.

I think real time does exist, I disagree with those who say it doesn't.

Time is as old as time itself.What humans were able to achieve was the ability to accurately measure time.

chemystery:

If you agree that nothing does not produce something, why assert that something called god came into existence out of nothing and from nowhere? It's either you are confusing yourself or you don't want to be sincere with yourself. You with choose one between "nothing results to something" or "nothing cannot result to something" and apply it throughout you argument than cherry picking on what your choice applies to and what it doesn't. That is insincerity! What is wrong in saying "I don't know" by the way?


Now you want to create a new argument on space. Who defines space and what it is? Is it not humans? Why then do you want to argue space isn't human construct? Maybe it is a supernatural construct I guess. You can tell me more


You don't know and you don't know! So don't blame it on grammar.
Now you want to blame it on your human instinct. When you started explaining what you don't know like your were an extraterrestrial being you didn't know
The time when time never existed(if such time ever existed) is on its own a time there is no 'magomago' about it



Even god too began to exist. How did I know? Same way you knew the universe began to exist

I agree! Same way something called god cannot emerge from nothing!
Something that existed out of nothing abi?
Likely? You are not even sure of this something. Then on the other hand, that something might most likely be dependent as well.
But you want to use same thought to define something you claim existed outside the confines of the universe.
But this is not the case for you, for you can define things that existed outside the confines of time and space. You must be a genius!

Saying he exists outside the logic of his creation makes me wonder if you are not his creation. Cos it was withing your logic to know this.

Again But something called god came out of nothing na?
It is better we don't make that assertion but simply admit we don't know! You are only trying hard to find quick and cheap answers to what you don't know. Relax!

if this is true, then you have been spending your time to explain what you don't know. Why not use the three words I DONT KNOW?

don't be shy to say I DONT KNOW!

I don't know apply to only logic. from ancient man to modern man men have severally given account of God and the spiritual beings this are known fact. it was only the invent of science that brought the ignorant and I don't know part of man. science want to bend everything based on man laws whereas there are other laws that are not man's. so where science stumble on this they understand not they either say it is a lie (atheist) or I don't know ( unbelievers )

winner01:
If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

John 1:1

Please take your time to read and digest this portion of the bible, I beg and implore you..
The time you spend searching for the source of God could be used for better understanding of the scripture...beg for the holy spirit ... Your brain can not decode God. Please, again and again read john 1:1. Thank me later!!!

walls01:
this is a simple question. man rational way of thinking (logic) has great limit. he has beginning and end so he do not understand what it means not to have a beginning and end. I have severally challenged by atheist Friends to tell me how the universe begins and how it will end many have run for cover. what ever way you look at it God or no God man cannot understand the meaning of no beginning, or anything out of the ordinary that is why they are ignorant of spiritual stuffs. man cannot understand that they are beings that are not seen (spirits) because he apply only logic like is animal counterpart. but the ability of man to ponder deep things of creation is a clear indication of another aspect of man that set him apart from animals

You can only challenge ignorant people.
If there is something that have no beginning, there is no way you can know
that except through "faith" which is useless in objective discourse.
If an undefined god can be eternal, so can the universe.

Creationists make up a law they cannot prove like 'all things were created' then convieniently sidestep it, again without proof, when they say god was not created. To make it plausible, they say,again without proof, that god had no beginning or an end and is outside the bounds of time and space. You can't eat your cake and have it. You don't make convienent excuses when there is a deviation from whatever postulate you are touting. Either everything was created, or some things are not created. That something had a beginning does not connote creation. It has yet to be proved and stays that way until you can provide proof, not concocted deducible statements.

Just that our nature cannot comprehen the truth behind the existence of Almighty God. I believe this question has a very simple answer in another realm.

Atheists, food don come oooo

winner01:
A timeless/eternal Being has no beginning and no end.

Timelessness excuses a being from being created.

Something that has been existing since forever has no beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

No beginning

If something has no beginning, it simply means it was not created.

That you ask who created God means you propose that God has a beginning. Eternity has no beginning. You can see the definition of eternal which I posted above.

It's difficult to grasp because we have never seen anything like this. Our thoughts are within the confines of time and space no matter how hard we try. It's always okay to try though.

Bros... you haven't answered the question... maybe because they didn't ask right... lemme ask you... right...

Out of the void and nothingness... how did a supreme being emerge...? except you're saying... God emerge from the void... then why was there a void... who bleeped with it and why...?!

Who created God is not an invalid question... in honest truth... it's beyond human comprehension... qed!!!

Rorachy:
If you ask who created God, then you will ask who created the person that created God, and the questions keep piling up.

Exactly the aim. At a point, we just have to stop and say we don't know. But Christians act as if they have the answer to all life's questions. And that is impossible. Some things are impossible for us to know.

winner01:
If something comes into being...

The major problem with your entire surmise is that even before you started you had already concluded that there is God and your statements was only to support your view. For example, when describing what God is you took to the bible. The same bible that says only a fool says that there is no God without exactly trying to give incontrovertible evidence of God's existence beyond "faith".

You didn't exactly disprove the question of who created God either. If as you said something cannot come out from nothing, then it follows logically that God has a creator and must also have a beginning. You can't separate God from time since God has never at any point in history made himself known to the world except in religious texts.

A question, if at the beginning there was nothingness, at what point did God decide to change this state? And what term of reference does he have given there's no antecedents for creation?

My view is that the deepest secrets of the universe is unknownable with present human knowledge in all it forms whether spiritual or physical.

What if, hypothetically speaking, ET life exists and at a point in time earth comes in contact with other beings in the universe? And these ETs give us a fresh view of things? How will the bible or any other earthly religion be able to explain this?

Anyways, to each his own. We all continue to seek answers. Some of us are content to stick with what some of the religions offer. Some of us aren't.

ivolt:


You can only challenge ignorant people.
If there is something that have no beginning, there is no way you can know
that except through "faith" which is useless in objective discourse.
If an undefined god can be eternal, so can the universe.

is it not clear that man itself chooses when to be ignorant. time after time different people from different race have spoken about the spirits which scientific man say it is untrue therefore breaking their own code.

einsteino:


more like proof of man's gullibility. you are telling it us, it is true simply because it is in a book we cant authenticate, a book that demands one just baseless believe. puhlsss last i checked there are several religious books and each one claims it is the only true one.

the real problem is we just assume and come into conclusion. science your confidence must have thought you the importance of research and proof before theory. try to investigate the origin of religion and why so many religions before your conclusion

Kingluqman89:
No one created God
Below is a proof from the Gorious Quran Chapter 112:

1. Say: He is Allah (God), the One and Only
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him.

What makes you think that God is male?

Read dis & be confused no more


In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.


Say: He is Allah, the One!


Allah, the eternally Besought of all!


He begetteth not nor was begotten.


And there is none comparable unto Him.

I have never heard an atheist ask "But who created God" that was not in response to the theist question of "Who created the universe? Everything that exists has to have a creator."
"But who created God" is merely used to point out the special pleading fallacy.

It is the theists who insist that everything needs a creator, but God is exempt.

Kingluqman89:
No one created God
Below is a proof from the Gorious Quran Chapter 112:

1. Say: He is Allah (God), the One and Only
2. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
3. He begetteth not, nor is He begotten
4. And there is none like unto Him.

These doesn't prove anything.
Bibles and Quorans do not prove anything.

Depends on the God in question.

Jehovah, Allah and the rest of the Elohims etc, have lifespans averaging 10,000 Earth years. That sounds like eternity, but its not.

But, Jehovah, Allah and the rest of the Gods, are just our Human Ancestors, they created the Human Species Homo Erectus by cloning, hybridization, cross-sexualizatin, reproduction and even teleportation and injection of soul mechanisms. They even went ahead to sequence our DNAs and still do it till now. Now, we are being re-designed to Homo Norvus.

What I am saying is, that the Gods worshipped by religions, are not Almighty God, so yes, God has another God Almighty. In the Bible and Koran, you read alot about Lords, God, and Almighty God. It took me years to understand the Bible, and some of you and your Pastors do not even know that in the original manuscripts, Lord, God and Almighty God referenced different Entities.

Now, I believe the question on your mind is 'Who is Almighty God and Who created Him ?' To answer to that question is very very very simple.

Everything is energy and Consciousness. Life is just a subset of cosmic existence and physical survival is just a perspective of the totality of life of Soul. Soul has many bodies, Earth body is just one of the many aspects of soul. Since physical body is just equipped only 5 physical senses, and answers about God and creation can not be decoded using the 5 senses, there is need to employ the senses of Soul. The Extra-Sensory perception to decode the nature of God and existence. Sleep, dream, Out of Body Experience, Death, Orgasm, Meditation, Psychedelic drugs and even Sex are apparatus outside of the 5 senses which can lead one to explore the other aspects of our lives. Ofcourse, these are aspects of our lives that has been restricted badly.

Where ever is declared a no-go area, is where vital documents and instruments are kept. Go within and you will come to the realization that Physical existence is just a frequency in the spectrum of existence. Physical life is just consciousness of 7 colours in the Spectrum of 24 via a limited robotic body with only 2 strands of DNA from the pool of 12 strands which represents the 12 Extra-terrestrial groups of entities who did so much programming of our robotic body. The 2 strands are a connection to the Orion Belt, the Home of Jehovah and the Allah. The remaining 10 strands are yours to activate and welcome the data streams from the other Races of ETs from the Galactic Federation of Cosmic Beings.

Till then, understand that Earth is Digital Library of some sort, and spirit comes here every now and then to experience life on physical plane and transmit data from brainwaves to the cosmic minds. Our bodies are bio-robots designed for our Spirit which is encased in the core of our Soul plasma membrane, it has to be housed in soul so the EM radiations do not alter its make-up.

Robots will never understand the nature of its makers, but we have a chance since we have consciousness, an awareness. So, a robot have to drop his body and tune the pineal to see the etheric nature of universe and journey the cosmos using your real body or even as a ball of light. But if you choose, you can decide to wear the body of ETs. That is how complex you are.

God as you know it in religions are ETs, the Almighty Creator of all, is the real core of all ETs and ofcourse you, cos you are a hybrid of ETs and ofcourse, Spirit is God and God is spirit, we are the God we have been searching for. We are it at physical level, as we journey to the world within, we will meet other hierarchies on our evolutionary journeys through the cosmos.