PastorAIO:


But even if we were to allow that obvious error, how do we account for Genesis 4:26.

In gen 4:26 we are told clearly and explicitly that at the time of Enosh was when people began to call on the name Yahweh.

So the name Yahweh was in use from the time of Enosh according to this passage.

People have continued to use Gods name before Moses came on board. The conversation Moses had with God isn't contradicting that. It is just that people keep misunderstanding the verse.

JMAN05:


You can only make a logical case on chapter 34 of Deut, not on all his writings. What it goes to show is that that chapter 34 was the last written piece. Whoever wrote that part, I don't know for now.

Yes, and also of note is the use of the phrase 'to this day'. This suggested that at least that part was written many many years after moses passed.
This is evidence that the books were added to and redacted over the centuries

JMAN05:


People have continued to use Gods name before Moses came on board. The conversation Moses had with God isn't contradicting that. It is just that people keep misunderstanding the verse.

Could you please share how you understand the verse?

PastorAIO:


Could you please share how you understand the verse?

Early Use of the Name and Its Meaning. Exodus 3:13-16 and 6:3 are often misapplied to mean that Jehovah’s name was first revealed to Moses sometime prior to the Exodus from Egypt. True, Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did not know Jehovah’s name. The very name of Moses’ mother Jochebed means, possibly, “Jehovah Is Glory.” (Ex 6:20) Moses’ question likely was related to the circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves. They had been in hard slavery for many decades with no sign of any relief. Doubt, discouragement, and weakness of faith in God’s power and purpose to deliver them had very likely infiltrated their ranks. (Note also Eze 20:7, 8.) For Moses simply to say he came in the name of “God” (ʼElo·himʹ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ) therefore might not have meant much to the suffering Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.

Then, too, we must keep in mind that names then had real meaning and were not just “labels” to identify an individual as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning “Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change being made because of God’s purpose concerning Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name to throw light on his purpose toward Israel. Moses’ going to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him meant being the representative of that One, and the greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak would be determined by or be commensurate with that name and what it represented. (Compare Ex 23:20, 21; 1Sa 17:45.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.... (Pls follow this link to get details - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=divine+name&p=par)

PastorAIO:


Yes, and also of note is the use of the phrase 'to this day'. This suggested that at least that part was written many many years after moses passed.
This is evidence that the books were added to and redacted over the centuries

I wouldn't state that with certainty. "To this day" could be after a month, not necessarily years. That would be adding what you don't know if you ask me.

JMAN05:


Where?

He will hold onto anything to find contradiction.

JMAN05:


Which shows that the name Yahweh was not the discussion. They knew it then. Moses was evidently concerned about the assurance that this God will live up to His words. Yahweh was then showing that the full meaning of the name was going to be shown in action.

This will help: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=exodus+3%3A14&p=par

So what acts did yhwh do after meeting Moses that he didn't do before then that was a full expression of the name YHWH , I Am.

JMAN05:



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=divine+name&p=par)

"Professor of Hebrew D. H. Weir therefore rightly says that
those who claim (Exodus6:2,3) marks the first time the
name Jehovah was revealed, “have not studied [these
verses] in the light of other scriptures; otherwise they would
have perceived that by name must be meant here not the
two syllables which make up the word Jehovah, but the
idea which it expresses."

truthislight:





"Professor of Hebrew D. H. Weir therefore rightly says that
those who claim (Exodus6:2,3) marks the first time the
name Jehovah was revealed, “have not studied [these
verses] in the light of other scriptures; otherwise they would
have perceived that by name must be meant here not the
two syllables which make up the word Jehovah, but the
idea which it expresses."

So what idea did yhwh express after meeting Moses that he didn't express before then that was a full expression of the name YHWH , I Am.

PastorAIO:


Yes, and also of note is the use of the phrase 'to this day'. This suggested that at least that part was written many many years after moses passed.
This is evidence that the books were added to and redacted over the centuries

JMAN05:


I wouldn't state that with certainty. "To this day" could be after a month, not necessarily years. That would be adding what you don't know if you ask me.

Whether it was months or years doesn't really change the point that the writings were added to and redacted.

You wouldn't say that with certainty. Neither have I said that with certainty. I said that It 'suggests that ... '.

In fact you have said nothing with certainty and I've noticed that for quite a while now. It is a technique commonly used by conspiracy theorists.

Your posts are littered with phrases like ...

JMAN05:


Early Use of the Name and Its Meaning. Exodus 3:13-16 and 6:3 are often misapplied to mean that Jehovah’s name was first revealed to Moses sometime prior to the Exodus from Egypt. True, Moses raised the question: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did not know Jehovah’s name. The very name of Moses’ mother Jochebed means, possibly, “Jehovah Is Glory.” (Ex 6:20) Moses’ question likely was related to the circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves. They had been in hard slavery for many decades with no sign of any relief. Doubt, discouragement, and weakness of faith in God’s power and purpose to deliver them had very likely infiltrated their ranks. (Note also Eze 20:7, 8.) For Moses simply to say he came in the name of “God” (ʼElo·himʹ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ) therefore might not have meant much to the suffering Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.

Then, too, we must keep in mind that names then had real meaning and were not just “labels” to identify an individual as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning “Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham (meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change being made because of God’s purpose concerning Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name to throw light on his purpose toward Israel. Moses’ going to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him meant being the representative of that One, and the greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak would be determined by or be commensurate with that name and what it represented. (Compare Ex 23:20, 21; 1Sa 17:45.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.... (Pls follow this link to get details - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=divine+name&p=par)

Rather than building an argument with certain facts the argument above is built with 'maybes', 'likely', 'may well', 'possibly' etc etc etc. And then from that it jumps to a definite conclusion.

Go and buy any wacky conspiracy theory book and notice the same style of argument. 'Maybe the aliens came', and 'Maybe the Aztecs were there', and then 'Possibly there was global communication' and then 'we can't fully rule out the existence of fairies' and then they take all the maybes and possibilities ( no matter how far stretched) and jumped the the firm conclusion that ALIENS CREATED HUMANS. qed.

PastorAIO:


So what acts did yhwh do after meeting Moses that he didn't do before then that was a full expression of the name YHWH , I Am.

That isn't a thoughtful question. Any person conversant with the scriptures will know what great miracle God perform when Moses started taken the lead.

PastorAIO:





Whether it was months or years doesn't really change the point that the writings were added to and redacted.

You mean chapter 34?

You wouldn't say that with certainty. Neither have I said that with certainty. I said that It 'suggests that ... '.

In fact you have said nothing with certainty and I've noticed that for quite a while now. It is a technique commonly used by conspiracy theorists.

Your posts are littered with phrases like ...



Rather than building an argument with certain facts the argument above is built with 'maybes', 'likely', 'may well', 'possibly' etc etc etc. And then from that it jumps to a definite conclusion.

Go and buy any wacky conspiracy theory book and notice the same style of argument. 'Maybe the aliens came', and 'Maybe the Aztecs were there', and then 'Possibly there was global communication' and then 'we can't fully rule out the existence of fairies' and then they take all the maybes and possibilities ( no matter how far stretched) and jumped the the firm conclusion that ALIENS CREATED HUMANS. qed.

Am not sure you read that article well.

JMAN05:


That isn't a thoughtful question. Any person conversant with the scriptures will know what great miracle God perform when Moses started taken the lead.

So what were the great miracles that were performed that weren't performed before Moses? And how did those miracles express the idea of 'Eheieh' , ie 'I Am'.

JMAN05:


You mean chapter 34?



Am not sure you read that article well.

Unless I mistakenly read all the parts of the article where arguments were built on 'possibly', 'likely' and 'might'. Were those words not used to present the points on which the argument is based.

you mean chapter 34

No, I mean the claim that the bible was never redacted or revised. In chapter 34 we see a clear example which you have admitted where an addition was made to an orginal text.

JMAN05:



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002391?q=divine+name&p=par)

Early Use of the Name and Its Meaning are often misapplied to mean that Jehovah’s name
was first revealed to Moses sometime prior to the Exodus
from Egypt. True, Moses raised the question: “Suppose I
am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them,
‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they
do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to
them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did
not know Jehovah’s name. The very name of Moses’
mother Jochebed means, possibly, “Jehovah Is Glory.” (
) Moses’ question likely was related to the
circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves.
They had been in hard slavery for many decades with no
sign of any relief. Doubt, discouragement, and weakness of
faith in God’s power and purpose to deliver them had very
likely infiltrated their ranks. (Note also .) For
Moses simply to say he came in the name of
“God” (ʼElo·himʹ ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ )
therefore might not have meant much to the suffering
Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and
lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that
their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.
Then, too, we must keep in mind that names then had real
meaning and were not just “labels” to identify an individual
as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning
“Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham
(meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change
being made because of God’s purpose concerning
Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah
and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change
revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s
purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered
if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new name
to throw light on his purpose toward Israel. Moses’ going
to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him
meant being the representative of that One, and the
greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak
would be determined by or be commensurate with that
name and what it represented. (Compare
.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.
God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some
translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is
to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the
word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather,
it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is
not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to
become toward others. Therefore, the New World
Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression
as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”
Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to
the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to
you.’”— , ftn.
That this meant no change in God’s name, but only an
additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his
further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of
Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of
Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent
me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is
the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (
; compare .) The name Jehovah
comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a
number of scholars suggest that the name means “He
Causes to Become.” This definition well fits Jehovah’s role
as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose.
Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such
a name.
This aids one in understanding the sense of Jehovah’s later
statement to Moses: “I am Jehovah. And I used to appear
to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as
respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to
them.” ( ) Since the name Jehovah was used many
times by those patriarchal ancestors of Moses, it is evident
that God meant that he manifested himself to them in the
capacity of Jehovah only in a limited way. To illustrate this,
those who had known the man Abram could hardly be said
to have really known him as Abraham (meaning “Father of a
Crowd (Multitude)”) while he had but one son, Ishmael.
When Isaac and other sons were born and began producing
offspring, the name Abraham took on greater meaning or
import. So, too, the name Jehovah would now take on
expanded meaning for the Israelites.
To “know,” therefore, does not necessarily mean merely to
be acquainted with or cognizant of something or someone.
The foolish Nabal knew David’s name but still asked, “Who
is David?” in the sense of asking, “What does he amount
to?” ( ; compare .) So, too, Pharaoh
had said to Moses: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey
his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all
and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (
) By that, Pharaoh evidently meant that he did not
know Jehovah as the true God or as having any authority
over Egypt’s king and his affairs, nor as having any might
to enforce His will as announced by Moses and Aaron. But
now Pharaoh and all Egypt, along with the Israelites, would
come to know the real meaning of that name, the person it
represented. As Jehovah showed Moses, this would result
from God’s carrying out His purpose toward Israel,
liberating them, giving them the Promised Land, and thereby
fulfilling His covenant with their forefathers. In this way, as
God said, “You will certainly know that I am Jehovah your
God.”— ; see ALMIGHTY .
Professor of Hebrew D. H. Weir therefore rightly says that
those who claim marks the first time the
name Jehovah was revealed, “have not studied [these
verses] in the light of other scriptures; otherwise they would
have perceived that by name must be meant here not the
two syllables which make up the word Jehovah, but the
idea which it expresses. When we read in ,
‘Therefore my people shall know my name;’ or in
, ‘They shall know that my name is Jehovah;’ or
in the Psalms, ], ‘They that know thy name
shall put their trust in thee;’ we see at once that to know
Jehovah’s name is something very different from knowing
the four letters of which it is composed. It is to know by
experience that Jehovah rea

truthislight:


Early Use of the Name and Its Meaning are often misapplied to mean that Jehovah’s name
was first revealed to Moses sometime prior to the Exodus
from Egypt. True, Moses raised the question: “Suppose I
am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them,
‘The God of your forefathers has sent me to you,’ and they
do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to
them?” But this does not mean that he or the Israelites did
not know Jehovah’s name. The very name of Moses’
mother Jochebed means, possibly, “Jehovah Is Glory.” (
) Moses’ question likely was related to the
circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves.
They had been in hard slavery for many decades with no
sign of any relief. Doubt, discouragement, and weakness of
faith in God’s power and purpose to deliver them had very
likely infiltrated their ranks. (Note also .) For
Moses simply to say he came in the name of
“God” (ʼElo·himʹ ) or the “Sovereign Lord” (ʼAdho·naiʹ )
therefore might not have meant much to the suffering
Israelites. They knew the Egyptians had their own gods and
lords and doubtless heard taunts from the Egyptians that
their gods were superior to the God of the Israelites.
Then, too, we must keep in mind that names then had real
meaning and were not just “labels” to identify an individual
as today. Moses knew that Abram’s name (meaning
“Father Is High (Exalted)”) was changed to Abraham
(meaning “Father of a Crowd (Multitude)”), the change
being made because of God’s purpose concerning
Abraham. So, too, the name of Sarai was changed to Sarah
and that of Jacob to Israel; in each case the change
revealed something fundamental and prophetic about God’s
purpose concerning them. Moses may well have wondered
if Jehovah would now reveal himself under some new(?) name
to throw light on his purpose toward Israel. Moses’ going
to the Israelites in the “name” of the One who sent him
meant being the representative of that One, and the
greatness of the authority with which Moses would speak
would be determined by or be commensurate with that
name and what it represented. (Compare
.) So, Moses’ question was a meaningful one.
God’s reply in Hebrew was: ʼEh·yehʹ ʼAsherʹ ʼEh·yehʹ. Some
translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is
to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahʹ, from which the
word ʼEh·yehʹ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather,
it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is
not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to
become toward others. Therefore, the New World
Translation properly renders the above Hebrew expression
as “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.”
Jehovah thereafter added: “This is what you are to say to
the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to
you.’”— , ftn.
That this meant no change in God’s name, but only an
additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his
further words: “This is what you are to say to the sons of
Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of
Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent
me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is
the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (
; compare .) The name Jehovah
comes from a Hebrew verb that means “to become,” and a
number of scholars suggest that the name means “He
Causes to Become.” This definition well fits Jehovah’s role
as the Creator of all things and the Fulfiller of his purpose.
Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such
a name.
This aids one in understanding the sense of Jehovah’s later
statement to Moses: “I am Jehovah. And I used to appear
to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as
respects my name Jehovah I did not make myself known to
them.” ( ) Since the name Jehovah was used many
times by those patriarchal ancestors of Moses, it is evident
that God meant that he manifested himself to them in the
capacity of Jehovah only in a limited way. To illustrate this,
those who had known the man Abram could hardly be said
to have really known him as Abraham (meaning “Father of a
Crowd (Multitude)”) while he had but one son, Ishmael.
When Isaac and other sons were born and began producing
offspring, the name Abraham took on greater meaning or
import. So, too, the name Jehovah would now take on
expanded meaning for the Israelites.
To “know,” therefore, does not necessarily mean merely to
be acquainted with or cognizant of something or someone.
The foolish Nabal knew David’s name but still asked, “Who
is David?” in the sense of asking, “What does he amount
to?” ( ; compare .) So, too, Pharaoh
had said to Moses: “Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey
his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all
and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (
) By that, Pharaoh evidently meant that he did not
know Jehovah as the true God or as having any authority
over Egypt’s king and his affairs, nor as having any might
to enforce His will as announced by Moses and Aaron. But
now Pharaoh and all Egypt, along with the Israelites, would
come to know the real meaning of that name, the person it
represented. As Jehovah showed Moses, this would result
from God’s carrying out His purpose toward Israel,
liberating them, giving them the Promised Land, and thereby
fulfilling His covenant with their forefathers. In this way, as
God said, “You will certainly know that I am Jehovah your
God.”— ; see ALMIGHTY .
Professor of Hebrew D. H. Weir therefore rightly says that
those who claim marks the first time the
name Jehovah was revealed, “have not studied [these
verses] in the light of other scriptures; otherwise they would
have perceived that by name must be meant here not the
two syllables which make up the word Jehovah, but the
idea which it expresses. When we read in ,
‘Therefore my people shall know my name;’ or in
, ‘They shall know that my name is Jehovah;’ or
in the Psalms, ], ‘They that know thy name
shall put their trust in thee;’ we see at once that to know
Jehovah’s name is something very different from knowing
the four letters of which it is composed. It is to know by
experience that Jehovah rea

Please address the parts that I bolded and highlighted in red. They are the basis of this interpretation and they are all obviously speculations.

Moses’ question likely was related to the
circumstances in which the sons of Israel found themselves.

Really? What about when Jacob asked the very same question?

29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
Genesis 32

What were the circumstances of Israel when Jacob asked that same question? What about the fact that in those ancient times to know the name of a god was considered as having the power to summon the god?

Now the Majesty of Ra was the creator of heaven and earth, of gods, men, and cattle, of fire, and the breath of life; and he ruled over gods and men. And Isis saw his might, the might that reached over heaven and earth, before which all gods and men bowed; and she longed in her heart for that power, that thereby she should be greater than the gods and have dominion over men.

There was but one way to obtain that power. By the knowledge of his own name did Ra rule, and none but himself knew that secret name. Whosoever could learn the secret, to that one—god or man—would belong the dominion over all the world, and even Ra himself must be in subjection. Jealously did Ra guard his secret, and kept it ever in his breast, lest it should be taken from him, and his power diminished.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ael/ael13.htm


A true name is a name of a thing or being that expresses, or is somehow identical to, its true nature. The notion that language, or some specific sacred language, refers to things by their true names has been central to philosophical study as well as various traditions of magic, religious invocation and mysticism (mantras) since antiquity.
The ancient Jews considered God's true name so potent that its invocation conferred upon the speaker tremendous power over His creations. To prevent abuse of this power, as well as to avoid blasphemy, the name of God was always taboo, and increasingly disused so that by the time of Jesus their High Priest was supposedly the only individual who spoke it aloud — and then only in the Holy of Holies upon the Day of Atonement.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name

These are facts about the attitude of ancient people to names. Even in yoruba till this day they believe that if you can know the true Oriki of an object you will access all the powers inherent in the objects. These names form the incantations which are used to prepare herbs and various objects for various uses.

Now if the people of Israel already knew the name 'Jehovah' and Moses was told to tell them that 'jehovah' sent him then what a nonsense to say that Elohim or Adonai 'would not have meant much to them'. It wouldn't have meant anymore or anyless than Jehovah which they knew a long time already.


Yet in all this you haven't demonstrated how Jehovah changed after he revealed his name to Moses. What did he do thereafter that he hadn't done before. Did he kill more people than he killed in the flood? Did he confuse the languages of the Whole world tenfold? Did he make a barren woman have children, like Sarah? What exactly did he do that reflects the name Jehovah that he hadn't done before?


Now, on the name Jehovah, your write up now demonstrates a willingness to go against the entirety of Theology just to wriggle out of this tight spot.
You have now resorted to making God a temporal Creature. Subject to time like everything else. you changed 'I Am' to 'I am becoming'. Either the writer is theologically and philosophically daft or he is just trying to be disingenuous. Talkng about the relation of the verb Ehyer to Hayah. These are just tenses. They are related the same way Running is related to Ran, or Will Run. Past tense, present tense, future tense, Present continuous.... etc.

That is not the idea that the name represents to Jews, certainly not to Jesus. To become means that you are evolving. You become what you were not yesterday. I become great means that I wasn't great before. Becoming occurs in time/temporally so in order for Jehovah to become he has to be subject to Time. This idea transcends the Hebrew language and can be translated into other languages ( so there is no hiding behind any fake hebrew ha'yah, which is actually the past tense ). In fact it is translated to Greek in the New Testament.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

'I am' in Greek is Ego Eimi. Jesus did not say before Abraham I am becoming. The idea is that he transcends time, this is Jesus' understanding of the name of God but then if you feel you know more than Jesus in this matter I cannot hold you.

The joke inside is that some people like Muttleylaff who isn't even a JW will jump on the bandwagon because he thinks that it is a way out of the cesspit that he has dug himself into.

PastorAIO:
Please address the parts that I bolded and highlighted in red.
They are the basis of this interpretation and they are all obviously speculations.

Really? What about when Jacob asked the very same question?

29 Then Jacob asked him, “Please tell me your name.” But he said, “Why is it that you ask my name?” And there he blessed him.
Genesis 32

What were the circumstances of Israel when Jacob asked that same question? What about the fact that in those ancient times to know the name of a god was considered as having the power to summon the god?

Now the Majesty of Ra was the creator of heaven and earth, of gods, men, and cattle, of fire, and the breath of life; and he ruled over gods and men. And Isis saw his might, the might that reached over heaven and earth, before which all gods and men bowed; and she longed in her heart for that power, that thereby she should be greater than the gods and have dominion over men.

There was but one way to obtain that power. By the knowledge of his own name did Ra rule, and none but himself knew that secret name. Whosoever could learn the secret, to that one—god or man—would belong the dominion over all the world, and even Ra himself must be in subjection. Jealously did Ra guard his secret, and kept it ever in his breast, lest it should be taken from him, and his power diminished.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/egy/ael/ael13.htm


A true name is a name of a thing or being that expresses, or is somehow identical to, its true nature. The notion that language, or some specific sacred language, refers to things by their true names has been central to philosophical study as well as various traditions of magic, religious invocation and mysticism (mantras) since antiquity.
The ancient Jews considered God's true name so potent that its invocation conferred upon the speaker tremendous power over His creations. To prevent abuse of this power, as well as to avoid blasphemy, the name of God was always taboo, and increasingly disused so that by the time of Jesus their High Priest was supposedly the only individual who spoke it aloud — and then only in the Holy of Holies upon the Day of Atonement.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_name

These are facts about the attitude of ancient people to names. Even in yoruba till this day they believe that if you can know the true Oriki of an object you will access all the powers inherent in the objects. These names form the incantations which are used to prepare herbs and various objects for various uses.

Now if the people of Israel already knew the name 'Jehovah' and Moses was told to tell them that 'jehovah' sent him then what a nonsense to say that Elohim or Adonai 'would not have meant much to them'. It wouldn't have meant anymore or anyless than Jehovah which they knew a long time already.


Yet in all this you haven't demonstrated how Jehovah changed after he revealed his name to Moses. What did he do thereafter that he hadn't done before. Did he kill more people than he killed in the flood? Did he confuse the languages of the Whole world tenfold? Did he make a barren woman have children, like Sarah? What exactly did he do that reflects the name Jehovah that he hadn't done before?


Now, on the name Jehovah, your write up now demonstrates a willingness to go against the entirety of Theology just to wriggle out of this tight spot.
You have now resorted to making God a temporal Creature. Subject to time like everything else. you changed 'I Am' to 'I am becoming'. Either the writer is theologically and philosophically daft or he is just trying to be disingenuous. Talkng about the relation of the verb Ehyer to Hayah. These are just tenses. They are related the same way Running is related to Ran, or Will Run. Past tense, present tense, future tense, Present continuous.... etc.

That is not the idea that the name represents to Jews, certainly not to Jesus. To become means that you are evolving. You become what you were not yesterday. I become great means that I wasn't great before.
Becoming occurs in time/temporally so in order for Jehovah to become he has to be subject to Time.
This idea transcends the Hebrew language and can be translated into other languages ( so there is no hiding behind any fake hebrew ha'yah, which is actually the past tense ). In fact it is translated to Greek in the New Testament.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58

'I am' in Greek is Ego Eimi. Jesus did not say before Abraham I am becoming. The idea is that he transcends time, this is Jesus' understanding of the name of God but then if you feel you know more than Jesus in this matter I cannot hold you.
The joke inside is that some people like Muttleylaff who isn't even a JW will jump on the bandwagon
because he thinks that it is a way out of the cesspit that he has dug himself into.

My reaction when I read my mention
and all you wrote about it

You can't see the wood for the trees
and thats why you dont understand the joke
(i.e. YHWH, aka Yahweh, or aka Jehovah, the personal name of God)

The joke is a very serious thing
and if there's truth behind the joke inside
then my way of joking, to tell the truth, it shall be

Who ever laughs, before hearing the punchline to a joke anyway?

PastorAIO:


So what were the great miracles that were performed that weren't performed before Moses? And how did those miracles express the idea of 'Eheieh' , ie 'I Am'.

From the time Moses appeared before pharaoh till he led them to the wilderness before his death, tell me that all such miracles had been performed before Gods servants prior to Moses. So you need references?

PastorAIO:

No, I mean the claim that the bible was never redacted or revised. In chapter 34 we see a clear example which you have admitted where an addition was made to an orginal text.

I just wonder where all these are coming from. You stated that the books attributed to Moses were not written by him. You stated that they were written after his demise. I came to point out the mistake in which your view was based.

You now state:

Whether it was months or years doesn't really change the point that the writings were added to and redacted.

In response to "this day", you stated this. Now, your position that Moses had died before the writing of the Torah is without logical proof, you can only make a case on chapter 34. Now stating that the writing[b]s[/b] were redacted or added to as in the Torah is hilarious. If your point is not on chapter 34 alone, then you are set on a default. What are the proofs?

JMAN05:


From the time Moses appeared before pharaoh till he led them to the wilderness before his death, tell me that all such miracles had been performed before Gods servants prior to Moses. So you need references?

I don't need references. I asked a question which was two fold.

1. What great acts did Yahweh do that he didn't do the like of before moses. What did he do in Egypt that was greater than flooding the whole world with water? What did he do that was greater than confounding the language of the whole world. What did he do that was more than making a geriatric woman bear a child? What did he do that was greater than destroying two great cities with a fire from heaven?

2. How did the acts subsequent to meeting Moses reflect the meaning of his name 'I Am who I am'?

JMAN05:


I just wonder where all these are coming from. You stated that the books attributed to Moses were not written by him. You stated that they were written after his demise. I came to point out the mistake in which your view was based.

There is no mistake on which my view is based. The fact that Moses' death was reported in chapter 34 is clear evidence that the book was not written by Moses.
Perhaps it was based on writing by Moses in part but the book as we have it was BOT written by Moses.

Unless you want to argue that chapter 34 is not a part of the Torah.

JMAN05:





In response to "this day", you stated this. Now, your position that Moses had died before the writing of the Torah is without logical proof, you can only make a case on chapter 34. Now stating that the writing[b]s[/b] were redacted or added to as in the Torah is hilarious. If your point is not on chapter 34 alone, then you are set on a default. What are the proofs?

Is chapter 34 not a part of the Torah again?

PastorAIO:


I don't need references. I asked a question which was two fold.

1. What great acts did Yahweh do that he didn't do the like of before moses. What did he do in Egypt that was greater than flooding the whole world with water? What did he do that was greater than confounding the language of the whole world. What did he do that was more than making a geriatric woman bear a child? What did he do that was greater than destroying two great cities with a fire from heaven?

2. How did the acts subsequent to meeting Moses reflect the meaning of his name 'I Am who I am'?

Flooding the whole earth was Abraham Isaac and Jacob there when it happened? Were they there when languages were scattered? An old woman bear a child was not a miracle Isaac and Jacob saw.

Again all those performances were little compared to what God did in the view of many Israelites. I don't know what u are up against honestly.

PastorAIO:


Is chapter 34 not a part of the Torah again?

But you stated "writings". Don't make it sound as if all moses writings are questionable.

PastorAIO:


There is no mistake on which my view is based. The fact that Moses' death was reported in chapter 34 is clear evidence that the book was not written by Moses.
Perhaps it was based on writing by Moses in part but the book as we have it was BOT written by Moses.

Unless you want to argue that chapter 34 is not a part of the Torah.

No, it is not a clear evidence that the book was not written by Moses. I hate it when people try to force there opinion on where there isn't any evidence. Let chap 34 be the issue here while I research on that.

PastorAIO:
I don't need references. I asked a question which was two fold.
1. What great acts did Yahweh do that he didn't do the like of before moses.
What did he do in Egypt that was greater than flooding the whole world with water?
What did he do that was greater than confounding the language of the whole world.
What did he do that was more than making a geriatric woman bear a child?
What did he do that was greater than destroying two great cities with a fire from heaven?

God said it already that He did all those as El-Shaddai aka God Almighty

Two words, in a way that arouses curiosity or interest, were used in Exodus 6:3.
They are "appeared" and "revealed"

PastorAIO:
2. How did the acts subsequent to meeting Moses reflect the meaning of his name 'I Am who I am'?

Wouldnt you like to know, ha-ha-haaah

JMAN05:
Flooding the whole earth was Abraham Isaac and Jacob there when it happened?
Were they there when languages were scattered?
An old woman bear a child was not a miracle Isaac and Jacob saw.

Again all those performances were little compared to what God did in the view of many Israelites

The condition, the background, the setting for all those performances are different to those of the Isrealites

Interestingly, "reveal my name, Yahweh, to them" is about making the important information known, especially one of a personal nature,
where God is going to do whatever it is and/or that's necessary, to free the Israelites
or where God, embarking on freeing the Israelites and bringing them to Canaan
is showing the willingness to be whatever it will take God to be, in having the Israelites free and brought to Canaan.

That is the essense of the meaning of YHWH,
I will exist because I will exist, I exist because I exist, I Am who I Am, I will be who I will be, I Am who I Am, I am that which exist etcetera

Note that I used etcetera
and mind you PastorAIO, I used it for obvious and very good reasons

This essence was not revealed to Abraham, to Isaac nor to Jacob

JMAN05:
I don't know what u are up against honestly.

All you need to know is that, he is barking up against the wrong tree, gnawing on a wrong bone
The 2:12pm On Oct 07 post has too many faux pas and more holes than a Swiss cheese
If not, how can he be juxtaposing English tenses with biblical Hebrew tenses (i.e. a language based on time with a language based on action)

JMAN05:


Flooding the whole earth was Abraham Isaac and Jacob there when it happened? Were they there when languages were scattered? An old woman bear a child was not a miracle Isaac and Jacob saw.

Again all those performances were little compared to what God did in the view of many Israelites. I don't know what u are up against honestly.

Oh, you want to stick to just Abraham Isaac and Jacob even though the bible says that people started calling the name Jehovah from the time that Seth gave birth to Enosh. Genesis 4: 26

So what happened, they knew the name of Jehovah from the time of Seth but then they had forgotten by the time of Abraham (or what).

Please tell me the Miracle that yhwh performed in egypt that was greater than what he did in Genesis 19 when he rained down fire and sulphur from heaven to come and destroy 2 whole cities and all the surrounding valleys. This was even in the lifetime of Abraham sef.

Further more how did the miracles in egypt reveal the meaning of the name Jahweh (I am who I am)?

JMAN05:


But you stated "writings". Don't make it sound as if all moses writings are questionable.

The point is simple. We know that Chapter34 was not written by Moses. Chapter 34 is part of the Torah. So therefore the Torah, at least in it's entirety, was not all written by moses. Some redaction has taken place and Chapter 34 is a glaring example of that.

JMAN05:


No, it is not a clear evidence that the book was not written by Moses. I hate it when people try to force there opinion on where there isn't any evidence. Let chap 34 be the issue here while I research on that.

You can research all you like, but once you can admit that Chapter 34 was not written by moses, and chapter 34 is a part of the torah, then it follows that the Torah, in it's entirety, was not written by Moses.

Very simple, really. And it's not a matter of opinion, it is a glaring fact.

MuttleyLaff:
God said it already that He did all those as El-Shaddai aka God Almighty

Two words, in a way that arouses curiosity or interest, were used in Exodus 6:3.
They are "appeared" and "revealed"

The question was simple. What did he do as Yahweh that was Greater than what he did as El Shaddai?

Wouldnt you like to know, ha-ha-haaah

Ah! You don't know!! no wahala.

Interestingly, "reveal my name, Yahweh, to them" is about making the important information known, especially one of a personal nature,
where God is going to do whatever it is and/or that's necessary, to free the Israelites
or where God, embarking on freeing the Israelites and bringing them to Canaan
is showing the willingness to be whatever it will take God to be, in having the Israelites free and brought to Canaan.

That is the essense of the meaning of YHWH,
I will exist because I will exist, I exist because I exist, I Am who I Am, I will be who I will be, I Am who I Am, I am that which exist etcetera

Lolololol!! Alawada Oshi!!

From simple I am that I am you are now extrapolating to I will have to be whatever is necessary for me to have to be.

You have now reduced your god to something that is subject to necessity.

http://metaphysicist.com/problems/necessity/

Of course, I recognised that to be true for a long time now and that is why I know that that egregore that you worship is not the true Divinity.

PastorAIO:
The question was simple.
What did He do as Yahweh that was Greater than what he did as El Shaddai?

Your question is not valid because the reasoning behind it, is not valid

PastorAIO:
Ah! You don't know!! no wahala

What you dont know, is that it has nothing to do with "what did He do as Yahweh that was Greater than what he did as El Shaddai"
You're barking up against the wrong tree,
and gnawing on a wrong bone with that your ridiculous "what did He do that was greater than what He did as El Shaddai" sound bite

PastorAIO:
Lolololol!! Alawada Oshi!!

That's you.
You are, the entertaining Alawada kerikeri free comedy here

PastorAIO:
From simple I am that I am you are now extrapolating to I will have to be whatever is necessary for me to have to be.

God replied to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.
This is what you are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you."
- Exodus 3:14

No one is extrapolating anywhere or needs to extrapolate.

Context my dear friend, context, context is king,
Hebrew verbs are understood in relation to the context

Look at Exodus 3:14 properly again,
then return back with what the word "eh-yeh" which is transliterated as "hayah" means
and what's the meaning of the "I AM WHO I AM" phrase as used in that context and language.
Whilst at it, please dont mix together english tenses with biblical Hebrew tenses

PastorAIO:
You have now reduced your god to something that is subject to necessity.
http://metaphysicist.com/problems/necessity/
Of course, I recognised that to be true for a long time now
and that is why I know that that egregore that you worship is not the true Divinity

Shàkì, to nsé bí òráà.
Lolololol!! the real Alawada Oshi!!

What an unnecessary and pitiable misuse of the word "egregore"

OK, please convincingly define God and god(s) then.
Exhaustively and to the best of your understanding do this for me please
Do it without holding back, give all your definitions, examples and/or explanations, like as if your life depended on it
Give your perspective, your posturing (i.e. behave in a way that is intended to impress)

PastorAIO:


You can research all you like, but once you can admit that Chapter 34 was not written by moses, and chapter 34 is a part of the torah, then it follows that the Torah, in it's entirety, was not written by Moses.

Very simple, really. And it's not a matter of opinion, it is a glaring fact.

If your position is that Moses didnt right A-Z all contained in the Torah, you may be right. But saying he is not the writer of the Torah is a mistake because he didn't have to write every letter in it to be the writer of that book. So the Israelites didn't make any mistake by viewing moses as the writer of that book. Whether the laat piece was providentially added doesn't change anything. That the Torah was viewed as the book of moses shows that that last piece wasn't added independently.

My words is that you don't make it sound as if all Moses writings have issues as to the writer.