PastorAIO:
Authority

my definition: That entity whose Will or Word is not challenged but acquiesced to.

Humans have the great ability to trust and acquiesce to Authority figures because it has enormous evolutionary advantages. It allows us to pass on information quickly from generation to generation so all the body of knowledge that a culture acquires can easily be passed on from generation to generation.

There are disadvantages with this great ability. If the Authority figure does not have our best interests at heart, or if the Authority is just simply wrong, then we are also greatly opened up to massive deception.

No matter how much critical thinking that someone learns and inculcates into himself he can never lose that ability to immediately acquiesce to Authority. The smartest guys in the world in one field of endeavour can also be the daftest person in another field where he has come to rely on Authority.

For this reason I don't really buy into the argument that Religious people are stupider than non religious people. They are only daft when it comes to listening to their pastors but when they get into work on monday morning they can be the sharpest guy in the office.

Everybody is daft where it comes to some field or the other and it is usually that field in which they look up to some revered Authority.

Since Authorities aren't appraised critically but rather go unquestioned, then how do we decide who or what to accept as authorities or not?

The answer is through cues, some of them it seems are hardwired in our genes. Just stupid superficial cues like 1. The tone of voice or 2. The posture or 3 something like a hat. Yeah! headgear is a weird one but it seems that all of humanity has a hardwired deference to stupid hats, the sillier the better.

I'll repeat that cos I don't think that I worded it too well. Up to a certain point Authority is very beneficial for humanity, but beyond that point we find that there is an inverse relationship to the importance of Authority in that society and Backwardness in that society. Let's explore that in a further post.

Sarassin:


I would say that Authority is always subject to challenge,

I believe mankind has an inherent yearning for order, it is this yearning that brought about religion amongst other things, but even the highest authority of God according to the Holy books does not go unchallenged, therefore I think that our trust and acquiescence to authority is for no other reason than that the alternative is likely anarchy.

I see a conflation in your post between constituted Authority and authority inferred by area of expertise, for instance, I am constrained by law to accept the authority of a magistrate but I do not necessarily accept that a pastor really knows what he is talking about. We are subject to one form of authority and complicit in another. I am not at all sure that we require Authority to transmit knowledge.

Authority figures are not confined to having our best interests at heart although we labour under that delusion. From Gods to banana republic dictators to Daddy G.O’s the primary aim of any authority figure is to perpetuate itself. The buzzwords are “fear of God” “touch not my….” And in the secular world “under penalty of …” subtle but powerful impulses. Authority is the carrot, fear is the stick!

I think we accept authoritative figures where the alternative is a worse case than the state of inertia, the cues are just an advanced form of Pavlovian conditioning.

When that relationship breaks down, we replace one set of undesirables with another. I agree with you that up to a point Authority has been beneficial to humanity, but if it had been a roaring success then by now we should no longer require it. But then again, I would say that because ultimately I am a rebel at heart.

Appeal to Authority


I mention pointy hats a lot. They are an aspect of the Church's Appeal to Authority, a logical fallacy. Pointy hats make you taller. A king generally has one pointy hat called a crown. Some pharaohs of Egypt wore the double crown of upper and lower Egypt. The Pope, not to be outdown, has a hat of three crowns. It is literally three crowns, one on top of th other. It is called the Papal Tiara. A cheap trick, I know. Hats are just the beginning. Google Cardinal Burke, one time Arch Bishop of St. Louis land check out images of him He has a cape that was a good thirty=feet long... and he wore it a lot.

PastorAIO:


I have argued that the reason for the evolutionary advantage we get from acquiescing to Authority is in order to easily transfer knowledge, especially cultural knowledge. Imagine that a child had to think and appraise absolutely every bit of information that his mother taught him in the first 5 years of his life!! If she says, 'don't touch fire' he will automatically withdraw from the fire. Imagine if he could never learn to be careful of fire until the day he actually puts his finger into a flame.

PastorAIO:

An example would be the Magna Carta of the British history to which even the Kings were subject to. Magna Carta had a higher Authority than the Kings of England.

PastorAIO:

An authority can demand that one creates anarchy. For example a rebel band of soldiers or robbers.

PastorAIO:

There are many types of Authorities. The bottom line is that whatever an authority Wills or Commands is acquiesced to. That is what makes it an Authority, by definition. The Pastor that you do not accept as knowledgeable is NOT an authority, not for you.

PastorAIO:
The ability to acquiesce to Authority was developed via Evolution to allow us to learn necessary skills fast. As with most things we evolved there is an upside and there is a downside.

PastorAIO:

Here I disagree with you. I do not think anyone goes through a reasoning process when they accept Authority whereby they think, 'Hmm if I do not do what Mummy says then anarchy will burst loose'. The acquiescence is automatic, it is hardwired in our genes. We evolved the ability.
If we were just dealing with Pavlovian conditioning then why can babies pick up the cues? Even dogs. We had dogs growing up and we all played with the dogs and fed them. My father hardly ever interacted with the dogs yet you could tell that the dogs respected my father, a man that had never once given them food. All pack animals, dogs included, are genetically hardwired to be aware of hierarchy and authority. The dogs knews that my dad was the numero Uno of the pack, the capo di tutti capi.

Sarassin:


I take your point about the evolutionary advantage of Authority, although I am not convinced that it is intrinsic Authority.
Kant wrote that anarchy falls short of being a true civil state because the law (Authority) is only an "empty recommendation" if force is not included to make law (Authority) efficacious.

I think the examples you gave of the child responding to the tropism of parental authority has more to do with nurturing as opposed to Authority per se. Of course the acquiescence to such authority could also be borne out of an innate desire of the child to please its parent.



True, but it might be worth pointing out that only three of the original clauses in the Magna Carta are still enshrined in law.



Anarchy is the presence of law and freedom without force.



True, but what examples would you give as unchallenged inherent authority? Or would you say that our acquiescence to Authority is subjective to our whim and to whatever we deem appropriate to our needs? or is acquiescence to Authority subject (as I deem it to be) to the use of force?



If we look at the process of evolution, we can see that there is a critical mass of adaptability beyond which a replicator can take over the entire space. We humans are a perfect example of this.



It need not be a conscious reasoning process, man’s natural state is a state of anarchy. Babies do pick up cues, again I think it is conditioning, animals too. A funny story here, in the late 60's Pavlov I think it was demonstrated what was initially thought to be an intelligent horse before a group of distinguished scientists in a classroom before a blackboard with simple sums and multiple choice answers. The horse appeared to pick the correct answers by nodding its head, it was correct in every instance. Well, it turned out the horse was simply watching the scientists very closely, every time that it approached the right answers it noted that the scientists became very agitated and then plumped for that one, it made a fool out of a bunch of scientists. I suspect your Dogs were far cleverer than you gave them credit for

PastorAIO:


You're getting there but I believe that you have a quite some way to go before you become as stark raving mad as I am.

What if that thing that could quell your other urges was itself an urge whereby you won't feel contentment until you connect with it. Yet once you do all your other urges like a wild beast that has been tamed will become like plasticene in your hands. To shape and do with as you will.

PastorAIO:
https://www.nairaland.com/4131372/why-pentecostals-believe-catholic-church/23

This thread serves to prove to me that what passes for Christianity today is nothing more than the vehicle for purveying a spirit of arrogance and I-too-know-ism.

Christianity is a way of justifying one's prejudice and this is made most clear when you see Christians argue against each other. Or rather, argue past each other.

PastorAIO:
Alas I can't copy and paste this book I've just seen but I'll type out a paragraph. It is from here:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=yBIqDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT145&lpg=PT145&dq=Authority+hats+crowns&source=bl&ots=qahnEos1lS&sig=-q3tjZ7GCM_6aQoLUIETPSyHbes&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirgqXqxInXAhXsCcAKHec1AVwQ6AEIQjAJ#v=onepage&q=Authority%20hats%20crowns&f=false





Me personally, I've noticed this phenomenon for a while. Never underestimate the power of wearing a hat. It's so stupid but it's so effective.

AgentOfAllah:

Then like you, I shall embrace the maddest of all madnesses...seeking method to one's madness!


From experience, every urge, once fulfilled, comes to a natural state of tameness. So, I say, may the fittest urge plasticinise first!

Ubenedictus:
or rather urges once fulfilled wants to be more fulfilled.

PastorAIO:
Pikin Wey Nor Know Hin Papa Name


What Kind of child does not know his father's name? Could that be said to be a true child?

Some people keep the name of their God hidden and only disclose it by hiding vowels so you only see the Consonants.

For Example YHWH.

An effect of this is that when some imposters come in to try to claim the name, they don't even know how it is pronounced.

Some shout Jehovah Jehovah, but that appellation is based on mere speculation. Nobody knows what the vowels between the four letters are.

I have a preference for YahooWahoo, but other's like to give it only 2 vowels results in YahWeh.

I find it bizarre that some people will make such a big deal about the name of their God when they themselves do not even know the name.

AlfaSeltzer:
Senseless thread.

Ranchhoddas:
Yahweh isn't His real name?
This is new information to me.

AgentOfAllah:


Hmmm...but if an urge wants to be 'more' fulfilled, then it is not yet fulfilled, by definition.

AgentOfAllah:


Lobotomise?
A while back, someone started a thread extolling the excellent qualities of paradise that good Christians should look forward to. Some of these ranged from the ridiculously ostentatious, like single dweller mansions bigger than the most opulent mansion on earth (who needs that?), to the simply ridiculous, like roads made of gold (how will golden roads enhance movement, especially since dwellers will presumably acquire the gift of flight/teleportation?). Anyway, what really did catch my attention was the person's claim that all our needs, in other words, urges, will be spontaneously granted, with the exception of sex because we wouldn't even possess such an urge anymore. Though I fail to recall the person mentioning these, I assume also, that dwellers would lose their urges to s.hit, p.iss, sneeze and what not...but anyway, I digress!

The person claimed thus; that dwellers will always feel fully gratified in paradise, even though god has effectively eliminated some of the fantastically gratifying urges of their yesterlives. They will be in a state of perpetual equanimity, if you will! The insight I got from this 'eye witness' account of heaven was revolting. It seemed less like a gratification of urges and more, a maleficent zombification of devotees. This person's god would effectively perform partial lobotomy on its believers in order to keep them fully gratified. I don't know about the lucky inhabitants of that heaven, but I know earthly human nature tends towards more, not less experiences. If there were something within me that could perish my many urges, even the mutually antagonistic ones, I'd kill that thing before it kills my urges. In a sense, aren't we defined by these peculiar urges? I only draw a line at the ones that are evidently harmful to myself and other people. I don't want my many urges on a leash ever, but maybe mine is just the rambling of a man content in his storm...turmoil...turbulence...madness?

At any rate, lobotomy seems a perfectly capable means through which perpetual equanimity may be attained, this mad man thinks. Then, you can really say your urges are restrained...that is, if you even feel the urge to say anything afterwards!

Am I mad, Pastor?

PastorAIO:


I think what he means to say, and I'd agree with him, is that an urge, once satiated, is almost immediately replaced by another one of equal urgency.

Ishilove:
Des Pensees!
*phew*
I actually thought I read something else. Des Pen...

hopefulLandlord:


you thought it was Des penicillin?

Ishilove:
Des Pensees!

*phew*

I actually thought I read something else. Des Pen...

Ranchhoddas:
If you eyes cause you to sin...

Ishilove:

Wear raybans

Ranchhoddas:
If any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy...

Ishilove:
Buhari fall on him

D Freeze and Pastor Adeboye - The Tithing controversy

The scriptures are clear that GENUINE men of God who are overseers are to refute those who oppose the truth with Sound Doctrine.

Titus 1:7 Since an overseer manages God’s household, he must be blameless— 9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and REFUTE those who oppose it.

But has Pastor Adeboye done this in his recent response to D Freeze? Recently, in an interview with Linda Ikeji, D Freeze made very strong biblical arguments against the modern day UNBLIBLICAL practice of Tithing in the church, to which Pastor Adeboye responded with sentiments rather than refuting the very cogent points that were made. I consider this very sad and it reflects the level of degeneration bedevilling modern day Christianity. In his message to his congregation, there was never a single time Pastor Adeboye made reference to the scriptures to refute what D Freeze said about Tithing. On the other hand, it was D Freeze who backed up his arguments with very valid scriptures. And of course, you will hear the usual sentimental threats and responses coming from so many blind followers of this new testament doctrine of Tithing - "touch not my anointed", "don't let the curse of God visit you", and the likes are some of the misguided statements you hear form many professing Christians who have been brainwashed and enslaved by a deceptive system of apostate Christianity so devoid of the spirit of the message that Jesus and the Apostles passed down to the church led by GENUINE men of God of old.

In this Vanguard article, Pastor Adeboye derided D Freeze for showing that Tithing was also celebrated with Alcohol on some occasions even though this was not the focal point of the argument. But how can one considered to be a great man of God by many not even know some of these basic facts? It is beyond me. Now D Freeze has responded to Pastor Adeboye’s statements in this article – see below and I hope Pastor Adeboye would respond with scriptures this time and refute him as the scriptures say the faithful overseer entrusted with God's word should do rather than respond with sentiments and instil fear on his congregation through threats of curses from God. Such things only invite more ridicule form the unbelieving world.

Response from D Freeze

"Dear Pastor Adeboye,
If you permit me, I will like to humbly seize this opportunity to raise some questions I consider valid.
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Why did you say, in a viral video that even a mad person knows that you don't drink alcohol in a church?
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Although from a sentimental point of view, your premise might seem right, but is it really what the Bible teaches us? The book of Deuteronomy 14:22-26, when speaking about paying tithes, instructs us to take our tithe to the place the LORD has chosen, and if the place is too far, we are instructed to sell the portion of our tithe and use it to buy anything our heart desires, listing alcohol as one of the items that could be bought with our tithe. The King James Version says 'strong drink', the Holmans Bible says 'beer' while the new international version specifies 'fermented drink'. All the above are forms of alcohol.
-
So if you say even a mad person knows that you don't drink alcohol in church, are you suggesting that the modern day church is not the 'place the LORD has chosen for tithe to be paid and for his name to be worshiped' as described in the book of Deuteronomy, or are you implying that the Bible was written by lunatics, or are you perhaps doubting God's sanity?
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Another issue I'll be grateful if you can throw some light upon, is where our first pastors and Daddy GOs, the 12 disciples, collected tithes, or where they instructed the believers who took over the headship of the church from them, to collect tithe.
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I humbly suggest, that you kindly address the above questions with biblical evidence, as against whipping up sentiment, or employing what many preachers use, and in my opinion, I consider; 'emotional tactics'.
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As the Berean Christian that I am, before accepting any doctrine, I research the scriptures to see if it aligns accordingly, with the word of God.
-
Thank you sir, I hereby extend my highest considerations and best regards. ~FRZ
#FreeTheSheeple
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Deuteronomy 14:26 KJV
[26] And thou shalt bestow that (tithe) money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the Lord thy God,

ME - personally another question I would kindly and respecfully ask Pastor Adeboye is this: Please tell us from historical facts when Tithing became a part of the New Testament church and who introduced it to the church. I am also curious to know. Is pastor Adeboye aware that the early church never practiced Tithing until it was introduced by the Roman Catholic Church in the 5th century? So does this mean that the apostles and the early Christians before the 5th century were all cursed of God? If our beliefs are based on blind traditions of men and partisan followership of men, then we are to be pitied beyond measure.

Shalom

25And there was a woman who had had a discharge of blood for twelve years, 26and who had suffered much under many physicians, and had spent all that she had, and was no better but rather grew worse. 27She had heard the reports about Jesus and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his garment. 28For she said, “If I touch even his garments, I will be made well.” 29And immediately the flow of blood dried up, and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. 30And Jesus, perceiving in himself that power had gone out from him, immediately turned about in the crowd and said, “Who touched my garments?”

22And they came to Bethsaida. And some people brought to him a blind man and begged him to touch him. 23And he took the blind man by the hand and led him out of the village, and when he had spit on his eyes and laid his hands on him, he asked him, “Do you see anything?” 24And he looked up and said, “I see people, but they look like trees, walking.” 25Then Jesusc laid his hands on his eyes again; and he opened his eyes, his sight was restored, and he saw everything clearly. 26And he sent him to his home, saying, “Do not even enter the village.”