petra1:


as long AS THERE IS a high priest we are required to tithe

not when the high priest did not ask us to pay him tithes

petra1:


as long AS THERE IS a high priest we are required to tithe

BTW what is the basis for this statement? where in the bible did you read this?

PaChukwudi44:


As long as the early church never tithed we are not also required to practise tithing

And how are you sure they didn't? We av very little record to reach that conclusion. The book pf acts and gospel of Luke were just letters to a man called theophilus to convince him about Christianity and he must av skipped alot likewise 80% of the new testament. Dey were just letters to some individuals or group of ppl. We have no real historic book in the new testament that gives us detailed account of the way the early church worshiped except deductions from these epistles

Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time [b]one sacrifice [/b]for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by [b]one sacrifice [/b]he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

PaChukwudi44:


sorry to digress but what really is the rationale for all this rankings?

He mentioned Kumuyi when I said majority of your major preachers are in it for the money. I'm talking of your Joel osteens, Reinhard Bonnke, creflo dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn etc. These are established names globally in Pentecostalism.

salvation101:

And how are you sure they didn't? We av very little record to reach that conclusion. The book pf acts and gospel of Luke were just letters to a man called theophilus to convince him about Christianity and he must av skipped alot likewise 80% of the new testament. Dey were just letters to some individuals or group of ppl. We have no real historic book in the new testament that gives us detailed account of the way the early church worshiped except deductions from these epistles

yes we are sue they didn't because they didn't teach or practise it as clearly described in the bible.We also have writings of the apostolic and post-apostolic fathers and none of them mentioned tithing in the early church.Christians has been writing since the first century CE.Not even the apostolic fathers who met the apostles mentioned anything about tithing

PaChukwudi44:


BTW what is the basis for this statement? where in the bible did you read this?

heb 7 spent a lot of time explaining the Abrahamic blessing that came through his contact with the high priest of salem called melchizedek and also explained how Jesus Christ is our high priest according to the order of melchizedek

Maximus82:


He mentioned Kumuyi when I said majority of your major preachers are in it for the money. I'm talking of your Joel osteens, Reinhard Bonnke, creflo dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn etc. These are established names globally in Pentecostalism.

Not globally but mainly in the US.

salvation101:
heb 7 spent a lot of time explaining the Abrahamic blessing that came through his contact with the high priest of salem called melchizedek and also explained how Jesus Christ is our high priest according to the order of melchizedek

FUNNY ENOUGH NO WHERE DID NIT ASK CHRISTIANS TO PAY TITHES

Maximus82:


95% if global Christians haven't heard of him.

wrong assumption. deeper life is a global church . They have branches from the largest cities of the world to the smallest NGWA village

petra1:


wrong assumption. deeper life is a global church . They have branches from the largest cities of the world to the smallest NGWA village

They are known amongst Nigerians. Ask any Nigerian overseas.. outside our Nigerian circle, he is virtually unknown. Sadly we Nigerians think because we have a local champion, he is boss around the world.

PaChukwudi44:

Not globally but mainly in the US.

All over two world, these are known names. You are dealing with a person who has handled viewer rates from Christian global media across the world. Due to confidentiality I can't tell you exactly how high or deep I am in these circles. Hopefully when next I pop down to Nigeria, we'll get to meet. There is no preacher that isn't a phone call away from me, i deal with the people you see on TBN, the God TV, etc etc etc. I deal with them on a ministerial level. For safety and confidentially sake, I have to keep things low, but anyone can tell either this guy is saying the truth about who he is, or he's telling lies. For those who know me and hear my views on this topic they are shocked as I'm fully in-house and get to see the film tricks while you get to see the movie.

salvation101:
fortunately i consider being called a sheeple a complement. Now you mentioned that Christ fulfilled the law which i also agree with but bringing all dat happened before the law as part of the law i disagree.. Has Jesus finally completed his mission on earth? If so, why does death still have power over the flesh? Why do women still go tru pain of labor? Why did paul look forward to the time our mortality will put on immortality? Are we in that time already?

Many other things came before the law and were also mentioned in the law or polished in the law. These other practices are all done away with and are classed as part of the law even though they also came before the law. The same way Christians religiously circumcise their sons even though it is of no use under the New Testament, is the same way people religiously tithe.

A. CLEAN AND UNCLEAN beast (Before the law GEN 7:2 & GEN 8:20 in the law LEV 11)

• Genesis 7:2 (KJV)
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
• Genesis 8:20 (KJV)
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
• Leviticus 11:2 (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.


B. CIRCUMCISION: (Before the law GEN 21:1-4, in the law LEV 12:3)

• Genesis 21:4 (KJV)
4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.
• Leviticus 12:2 (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
• Leviticus 12:3 (KJV)
3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.


C. BURNT OFFERINGS/ NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SIN OR TRESSPASS OFFERINGS: (Before the law GEN 8:20, In the law EX 20:24 & LEV 1:10-11)

• Genesis 8:20 (KJV)
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
• Exodus 20:24 (KJV)
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
• Exodus 18:12 (KJV)
12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.

PaChukwudi44:


Bros Jesus has fulfilled the law shikena.The law of moses is has been dead for over 2000 years now.

i see u couldn't answer those questions... It would interest you to know that even the early fathers that compiled the new testament only saw it as an addition to the old and not a replacement. Moses law occupies a very minute part of the old testament. There are still a lot of prophesies in the old testament yet to be fulfilled and Jesus is coming to fulfill... This should put a question mark on ur theology that the whole of the old testament has been done away with

salvation101:
you got it wrong. Jesus was crucified out of Jealousy and because he claimed he was the coming messiah wch dey see as blasphemy

I doff for ur ignorance of the world. u are just arguing to win not to learn or established fact. if u claimed that Jesus did nt go against the Jewish tradition then, its either u dont knw the Jewish tradition or u dont understand deviance from tradition.
wht can u say abt healing the sick on Sabbath day? wht do u say abt his teachings in the synagogue?? wht do u say abt his judgement on the woman caught in adultery?? hw abt his teaching on retaliation etc.
explain all these in accordance with the Jewish tradition and tell me if he deviated or not.
if Jesus had nt deviated, we wud have continued practicing Judaism or is Christianity a Jewish tradition

Maximus82:


Many other things came before the law and were also mentioned in the law or polished in the law. These other practices are all done away with and are classed as part of the law even though they also came before the law. The same way Christians religiously circumcise their sons even though it is of no use under the New Testament, is the same way people religiously tithe.

A. CLEAN AND UNCLEAN beast (Before the law GEN 7:2 & GEN 8:20 in the law LEV 11)

• Genesis 7:2 (KJV)
2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
• Genesis 8:20 (KJV)
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
• Leviticus 11:2 (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, These are the beasts which ye shall eat among all the beasts that are on the earth.


B. CIRCUMCISION: (Before the law GEN 21:1-4, in the law LEV 12:3)

• Genesis 21:4 (KJV)
4 And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.
• Leviticus 12:2 (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.
• Leviticus 12:3 (KJV)
3 And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.


C. BURNT OFFERINGS/ NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SIN OR TRESSPASS OFFERINGS: (Before the law GEN 8:20, In the law EX 20:24 & LEV 1:10-11)

• Genesis 8:20 (KJV)
20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.
• Exodus 20:24 (KJV)
24 An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee.
• Exodus 18:12 (KJV)
12 And Jethro, Moses' father in law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God: and Aaron came, and all the elders of Israel, to eat bread with Moses' father in law before God.


Over to your other points you raised of notable people who tithe, I can mention quite a few who I actually know. Your top shots accross the world do not tithe and they are but a handful of tithers when it comes to the super rich. You cannot make a doctrine out of such invalid stats. It's like saying we should be born again because a Hollywood star is. Truth is they are about 3000 Hollywood stars who aren't saved. When it comes to prospering there is one simple God given principle.
Your view conveys the message that tithing and other forms of extreme giving guarantee huge returns. The only person guaranteed a return in the prosperity doctrine is the preacher. The Bible clearly says that a man diligent in what he does, he ends up before great men (PROV 22:29). God blesses the works of our hands and that which he has called us to. Our diligence opens doors. The richest people on earth are not your tithers etc but those who are masters in their fields.

I don't want to sound rude, but the people you see on TV, I hang out with them. The mega preachers you rant on about, I speak to them almost weekly, but sadly it's a scam when it comes to finances. I'm talking of your mega preachers you all watch on satellite or cable TV, depending on what you call it down there. That's why I'm sad with sheeple. They are times I'm in a place and I hear sheeple defending people they don't know etc and their only view on the person they are defending is from a media source i.e TV etc. Let's face it, these are media ministries and the media are more than capable of pushing views they want seen out. Apart from Reinhard Bonnke, most of the rest are there for money and nothing else. How do I know, I work with them but sadly your programmed minds won't even let you receive that.

Have you ever asked yourself who Jacob tithes to? Think on that one.

That you hang out with them is a mere privilege.. Now Reinhard bonnke is a Saint because he doesn't collect tithe during crusades, how many of Nigerian old generational Pentecostal(not all these new generation prosperity preacher) av u attended their crusades av u attended their crusades and they collected offerings or tithe? Tithes are not collected in crusades but church services. The Reinhard bonnke u are talking about, his CFAN ministry is sponsored by churces and individuals abroad who pay tithe... I see u mentioned names like creflo dollar and Copeland dont their churches tithe? Infact some are very strict to d extent that dey give members a tithe card wch is marked monthly. Av know from the beginning that this anti tithe movement isn't about the bible but because ppl r jealous of some of these pastors.. U tell me a pastor who left his job to teach Bible to few of his students nd d bible study expanded so big over the years only did dat for money? Dat is fallacy

lonikit:


I doff for ur ignorance of the world. u are just arguing to win not to learn or established fact. if u claimed that Jesus did nt go against the Jewish tradition then, its either u dont knw the Jewish tradition or u dont understand deviance from tradition.
wht can u say abt healing the sick on Sabbath day? wht do u say abt his teachings in the synagogue?? wht do u say abt his judgement on the woman caught in adultery?? hw abt his teaching on retaliation etc.
explain all these in accordance with the Jewish tradition and tell me if he deviated or not.
if Jesus had nt deviated, we wud have continued practicing Judaism or is Christianity a Jewish tradition

like u av always done, i throw needless jabs but it got nothing on me. Was Jesus a rabbi or not? Did he bring teachings out of thin air or taught from the Torah?
Wat were the accusations that dey brought before pilate? Wasn't it blasphemy and dat he declared himself king of the Jews? I ask u again, why do men still die since Jesus has fulfilled all the old testament?

salvation101:
i wished to be proved wrong. Wat scripture was used by the early church even according to the new testament

pls my sis, kindly take ur time to knw wht Torah means.
Torah was the book that contain the law especially the mosaic law. torah was not mobile, always kept in the synagogue. its not everybody dat can read it.
the apostles didn't use it bcus most of them were on missionary Joni preaching the gospel of Christ.
Paul quoted several times from it bcus he was a teacher of the law bfr he was converted. apostles did not use it my sis. they didn't teach the law but the gospel of christ

salvation101:
i wished to be proved wrong. Wat scripture was used by the early church even according to the new testament

pls my sis, kindly take ur time to knw wht Torah means.
Torah was the book that contain the law especially the mosaic law. torah was not mobile, always kept in the synagogue. its not everybody dat can read it.
the apostles didn't use it bcus most of them were on missionary Joni preaching the gospel of Christ.
Paul quoted several times from it bcus he was a teacher of the law bfr he was converted. apostles did not use it my sis. they didn't teach the law but the gospel of christ.
find out what's Torah pls.

salvation101:
i see u couldn't answer those questions... It would interest you to know that even the early fathers that compiled the new testament only saw it as an addition to the old and not a replacement. Moses law occupies a very minute part of the old testament. There are still a lot of prophesies in the old testament yet to be fulfilled and Jesus is coming to fulfill... This should put a question mark on ur theology that the whole of the old testament has been done away with

so how come you are not practising the other requirements of the law or you think the law only involved tithing?

lonikit:


pls my sis, kindly take ur time to knw wht Torah means.
Torah was the book that contain the law especially the mosaic law. torah was not mobile, always kept in the synagogue. its not everybody dat can read it.
the apostles didn't use it bcus most of them were on missionary Joni preaching the gospel of Christ.
Paul quoted several times from it bcus he was a teacher of the law bfr he was converted. apostles did not use it my sis. they didn't teach the law but the gospel of christ.
find out what's Torah pls.

there was nothing like the bible until it was compiled in the fourth and fifth centuries.Hundreds of scriptures including the epistles of the apostles all existed as separate scriptures.That been sid the apostles taught the church what was to be practised and also repeated it in their epistles.No where in the history or teachings of the early church was tithing mentioned.This is a historical fact

salvation101:
like u av always done, i throw needless jabs but it got nothing on me. Was Jesus a rabbi or not? Did he bring teachings out of thin air or taught from the Torah?
Wat were the accusations that dey brought before pilate? Wasn't it blasphemy and dat he declared himself king of the Jews? I ask u again, why do men still die since Jesus has fulfilled all the old testament?

while Jesus was alive the law of Moses was still valid hence the torah.The law of moses only died at the cross of calvary

lonikit:


pls my sis, kindly take ur time to knw wht Torah means.
Torah was the book that contain the law especially the mosaic law. torah was not mobile, always kept in the synagogue. its not everybody dat can read it.
the apostles didn't use it bcus most of them were on missionary Joni preaching the gospel of Christ.
Paul quoted several times from it bcus he was a teacher of the law bfr he was converted. apostles did not use it my sis. they didn't teach the law but the gospel of christ.
find out what's Torah pls.

Good point. To an extent the Torah was divided into three, the Pentateuch or first five books of the Bible (Gen, Ex, Lev, NUM, Deu). The major prophets (Isaiah, Jeremiah etc)and the minor prophets (Amos etc). The Saducees who do not believe in the human spirit or life after death stop at the Pentateuch. The Pharisees believe in life after death and the law and the prophets.
Majority of the scriptures quoted by the apostles were from either one of these two. Having said all of this i.e the law and the prophets were until John who was the last prophet prior to the fulfilment of their prophecies which all led to Christ.

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Luke 16:16 KJV

Fully comprehend God's work on the cross because the modern doctrine of tithing indirectly claims the either supercedes the work of the cross.

this the essence of tithing
Numbers 18:24 KJV
But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

at a point David stopped the Levites from doin some services.

pls explain this portion in relation to modern Christianity bearing in mind the diff BTW "Levites" and "pastors" and justify who is entitled to tithe

lonikit:


pls my sis, kindly take ur time to knw wht Torah means.
Torah was the book that contain the law especially the mosaic law. torah was not mobile, always kept in the synagogue. its not everybody dat can read it.
the apostles didn't use it bcus most of them were on missionary Joni preaching the gospel of Christ.
Paul quoted several times from it bcus he was a teacher of the law bfr he was converted. apostles did not use it my sis. they didn't teach the law but the gospel of christ.
find out what's Torah pls.

so wch scriptures did the Christians at berea go back home to study according to paul? Check my other thread about the Jewish educational system.. A jew dat didn't go to school at all knew the 5 book of moses, someone like paul who made it to become a disciple under a rabi could recite the entire old testament off hand.

I

salvation101:

That you hang out with them is a mere privilege.. Now Reinhard bonnke is a Saint because he doesn't collect tithe during crusades, how many of Nigerian old generational Pentecostal(not all these new generation prosperity preacher) av u attended their crusades av u attended their crusades and they collected offerings or tithe? Tithes are not collected in crusades but church services. The Reinhard bonnke u are talking about, his CFAN ministry is sponsored by churces and individuals abroad who pay tithe... I see u mentioned names like creflo dollar and Copeland dont their churches tithe? Infact some are very strict to d extent that dey give members a tithe card wch is marked monthly. Av know from the beginning that this anti tithe movement isn't about the bible but because ppl r jealous of some of these pastors.. U tell me a pastor who left his job to teach Bible to few of his students nd d bible study expanded so big over the years only did dat for money? Dat is fallacy

Sadly you've missed the plot again. Reinhard is not your first point of call when it comes to tithes or offering of church members. I've also worked with Reinhard on a global level. Sadly you do not know how it works, so I'll explain. The small preacher envies the guy at the top. He grows his church to a level and becomes a middle class preacher. This middle class preacher adores the man at the top and wants to get there. That is where is main problem starts. The top shot isn't interested in the sheep as he's found out his predecessors were. He does all he can to get to the top and has to offer huge compromises to be part of the top crew. Eventually he gets there and keeps the mechanism going by pushing these other doctrines that swipe the funds off his mates cards. As I said, you are talking to someone at the very top of global Pentecostalism. A sheeple wouldn't listen and by the time they really find out what's happening, they leave the faith because the very foundation of all they believed is shaken. Either they leave or they join the group of people who go on to abuse others. I follow this thread as a much needed change is coming to the body of Christ and I'm monitoring what's happening on ground. Concerning creflo etc, you forget they are media ministries. You hear what they tell you. 90% of what is told on that pulpit are lies. They all give to each other at meetings , but guess what? Their cards always decline back at the office. The sheep attend the meeting and see preacher x donate x or y amount, when in reality they are propping themselves up. I can comfortable tell you that all creflo workers live on the lower end of the threshold of life and in what you call projects. The only ones who do well( less than 14) are those who have learnt what he's all about and force them into high pay due to ransom. If I said to you, to work for creflo for peanuts, you would. That's what he does to staff, his sheep etc. Only when you are an insider do you realise the mechanism behind these lot. You ask me how I know about creflo? All top shots in these firms relate the decay when we meet up and speak to each other regularly. We are friends at that level and it's a pathetic story across the board. As a thank you, I'll arrange a top seat at any meeting you wish in Nigeria, so you get the feel on the levels in talking about. I'm talking of seating next to an oyedepo or Pastor Chris main men at an event. You'll also get invited to the after service event/ refreshments etc. Pastor Chris and tom sit on stage so you'll have to sit on first row. Hope you get the point of what levels we are talking of here. Simply put as I said, the men you see on really, we dine with them and their media portrays what they want you to see.

salvation101:
so wch scriptures did the Christians at berea go back home to study according to paul? Check my other thread about the Jewish educational system.. A jew dat didn't go to school at all knew the 5 book of moses, someone like paul who made it to become a disciple under a rabi could recite the entire old testament off hand.

pls just ans this question. wht is Torah

salvation101:
so wch scriptures did the Christians at berea go back home to study according to paul? Check my other thread about the Jewish educational system.. A jew dat didn't go to school at all knew the 5 book of moses, someone like paul who made it to become a disciple under a rabi could recite the entire old testament off hand.

what exactly is your point exactly? That we should all go back to practising the law of moses? Even if we do hope you know your pastors wont be eligible to receive tithes since they never descended from the tribe of levi

lonikit:
this the essence of tithing
Numbers 18:24 KJV
But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the Lord , I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

at a point David stopped the Levites from doin some services.

pls explain this portion in relation to modern Christianity bearing in mind the diff BTW "Levites" and "pastors" and justify who is entitled to tithe

now that is where most ppl make the mistake. Levites where a people not a position or post. The highest rank in the tribe of levi is the position Aaron occupied. High priest.. There weee also priest and several other levites who worked in the temple. The entire tribe were not to do any other work but works in and around the temple. The tithe was a provision for the entire tribe since they didn't and mustn't engage in any work except the work God asked them to. In the church today Jesus is the High priests, the full-time pastors are the levites. My church in particular encourages pastors to work but there are some positions which cant be combined with any other work and these pastors have families to cater for.. Some of these pastors had very successful careers before they were appointed full-time positions wch dey had to resign. Many pastor still av successful careers and dey avnt been called to full-time service in the House of God.

salvation101:
now that is where most ppl make the mistake. Levites where a people not a position or post. The highest rank in the tribe of levi is the position Aaron occupied. High priest.. There weee also priest and several other levites who worked in the temple. The entire tribe were not to do any other work but works in and around the temple. The tithe was a provision for the entire tribe since they didn't and mustn't engage in any work except the work God asked them to. In the church today Jesus is the High priests, the full-time pastors are the levites. My church in particular encourages pastors to work but there are some positions which cant be combined with any other work and these pastors have families to cater for.. Some of these pastors had very successful careers before they were appointed full-time positions wch dey had to resign. Many pastor still av successful careers and dey avnt been called to full-time service in the House of God.

Let's use your quote against you. The tithe fed a twelfth of all Israel. The tenth of God fed a twelfth of God. It fed a whole tribe. Your tithe in what ever church does not feed a twelfth of the church. Also note that the salary of those at the top outweighs staff by over 700%.

lonikit:


pls just ans this question. wht is Torah

The Torah are the books the jews regarded as inspired words of God. Starting from the books of moses to dat of the last prophet in the old testament (Zachariah).. It is known today as the old testament only that it was rearranged into law, historics, poetic and prophet

salvation101:
now that is where most ppl make the mistake. Levites where a people not a position or post. The highest rank in the tribe of levi is the position Aaron occupied. High priest.. There weee also priest and several other levites who worked in the temple. The entire tribe were not to do any other work but works in and around the temple. The tithe was a provision for the entire tribe since they didn't and mustn't engage in any work except the work God asked them to. In the church today Jesus is the High priests, the full-time pastors are the levites. My church in particular encourages pastors to work but there are some positions which cant be combined with any other work and these pastors have families to cater for.. Some of these pastors had very successful careers before they were appointed full-time positions wch dey had to resign. Many pastor still av successful careers and dey avnt been called to full-time service in the House of God.

bros abeg what chapter of the bible did you pick this from?