According to KingEbukasblog, God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to happen.

Can the christians here tell us the morally sufficient reasons why their God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us?

Interesting

I sense thread derailment

Let me stay here and listen

Verbal gymnastics loading

dalaman:
According to KingEbukasblog, God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to happen.

Can the christians here tell us the morally sufficient reasons why their God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us?

Whats the obsession with evil sir ? If God does not exist , everything is permissible. There'd be no good or evil . How could there be evil if there is no such thing as objective morality? What you see as evil could be good to the next person . So is evil actually being permitted or what you perceive as evil - which could be perceived as good by another .

Only if you agree that there is such thing as objective good and evil, then your question would make sense !

If not , what you perceive as evil , is simply good to another .

Comprende sir ?

KingEbukasBlog:


Whats the obsession with evil sir ? If God does not exist , everything is permissible. There'd be no good or evil . How could there be evil if there is no such thing as objective morality? What you see as evil could be good to the next person . So is evil actually being permitted or what you perceive as evil - which could be perceived as good by another .

Only if you agree that there is such thing as objective good and evil, then your question would make sense !

If not , what you perceive as evil , is simply good to another .

Comprende sir ?

We've argued and argued over this things in the past. I just want you to tell me the morally sufficient reasons why your God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us. This is not a debate on (objective) morality.

dalaman:


We've argued and argued over this things in the past. I just want you to tell me the morally sufficient reasons why your God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us. This is not a debate on (objective) morality.

You don't get it . If there is no objective good or evil, how can you say for sure that we perceive the same evil and the same good ? There is no agreement between us that there is "evil" around us . What if I see it as good ?

dalaman:
According to KingEbukasblog, God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to happen.

Can the christians here tell us the morally sufficient reasons why their God allows all the gratuitous evil we see around us?

You will never convince a god lover that evil is the fault of his god. He will either tell you that misfortune is the fault of the unfortunate for choosing to live outside the grace and protection of his god or he will tell you that evil is a test of faith. If he is smart enough he might also convince you that your non-belief is also a test from his god for him. You are just a pawn life Lucifer. Either way, you will end up in a catch 22 paradox. But don’t we all love the exercise?

KingEbukasBlog:


You don't get it . If there is no objective good or evil, how can you say for sure that we perceive the same evil and the same good ? There is no agreement between us that there is "evil" around us . What if I see it as good ?

Morality doesn't have to be objectively good for it to be appreciated. The Muslim's endearment to sharia is an example I've always used to show prove that to you. To the avatar muslim the sharia is the perfect and objective moral system as prescibed by the creator of the universe and humanity as a whole. His objective moral principles are stated in the sharia. Do you agree with the sharia as an objective source of morality? No you don't but you and a muslim can live in the same society and agreed on many things together as morally good or evil despite the fact that you DO NOT SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AND IDEAS ON OBJECTIVE MORALITY.

We do not have to agree that morality is objective to know that gratuitous evil exist in our world. Even if morality is objective then it is humans that made it so because humans are the creators of every moral systems and not God. Name one moral principle that was made by any God on its own without human input, when it was made by such a God and how it was made by such a God on its own without any human input. Go ahead am waiting.

dalaman:


Morality doesn't have to be objectively good for it to be appreciated. The Muslim's endearment to sharia is an example I've always used to show prove that to you. To the avatar muslim the sharia is the perfect and objective moral system as prescibed by the creator of the universe and humanity as a whole. His objective moral principles are stated in the sharia. Do you agree with the sharia as an objective source of morality? No you don't but you and a muslim can live in the same society and agreed on many things together as morally good or evil despite the fact that you DO NOT SHARE THE SAME VIEWS AND IDEAS ON OBJECTIVE MORALITY.

We do not have to agree that morality is objective to know that gratuitous evil exist in our world. Even if morality is objective then it is humans that made it so because humans are the creators of every moral systems and not God. Name one moral principle that was made by any God on its own without human input, when it was made by such a God and how it was made by such a God on its own without any human input. Go ahead am waiting.

I can see that you want to feign ignorance.

With subjective morality an atheist rapist could argue that he has done good just like the serial rapist Ted Bundy tried justifying why he rapes nd murders women To him, God has permitted good .

You have no serious argument Mr.Dalaman

Dohgon:


You will never convince a god lover that evil is the fault of his god. He will either tell you that misfortune is the fault of the unfortunate for choosing to live outside the grace and protection of his god or he will tell you that evil is a test of faith. If he is smart enough he might also convince you that your non-belief is also a test from his god for him. You are just a pawn life Lucifer. Either way, you will end up in a catch 22 paradox. But don’t we all love the exercise?

Didn't I destroy your weak arguments the last time we argued? Oh yeah it's you who made a ludicrous argument : Intelligence can exist without a mind . Laughable!

The Dystheist believes God is evil and of a morally depraved nature . You are not making any serious argument just like your friend .

I understand the perspective KingEbukasblog is addressing the problem from.

And I also understand that of Dalaman.

KingEbukas argument on this is valid, if morality is subjective on what basis do you accuse God of evil?

Because based on a particular subjective moral outlook God may be evil but on a different outlook that evil is good.

I think a definition is needed here.

What is morality?

If you say morality is objective, that is just a vague statement. What makes something moral?

Is it objectively moral because it is just like that without reason or is it objectively moral because there are elements/tenets or effects that makes it so?

We must define morality.

Once a definition is coined, subjectivity and objectivity comes second place

KingEbukasBlog:


I can see that you want to feign ignorance.

With subjective morality an atheist rapist could argue that he has done good just like the serial rapist Ted Bundy tried justifying why he rapes nd murders women To him, God has permitted good .

You have no serious argument Mr.Dalaman

Yet Ted Bundy he was arrested and imprisoned? Even he knew his act was evil because he never did it in the open. He stalked his victims and attacked when he knew no body was there. He never attacked them in the open where people will know he was with them and raping them. He always made sure he did it away from everybody and when nobody was there to see him because he knew he was doing an evil thing.

That aside, can you define what morality is? As Jonny said, once you are able to do that, we can put the issue of objectivity or subjectivity to rest.

johnydon22:
I understand the perspective KingEbukasblog is addressing the problem from.

And I also understand that of Dalaman.

KingEbukas argument on this is valid, if morality is subjective on what basis do you accuse God of evil?

Because based on a particular subjective moral outlook God may be evil but on a different outlook that evil is good.

I think a definition is needed here.

What is morality?

If you say morality is objective, that is just a vague statement. What makes something moral?

Is it objectively moral because it is just like that without reason or is it objectively moral because there are elements/tenets or effects that makes it so?

We must define morality.

Once a definition is coined, subjectivity and objectivity comes second place

KingEbukasblog what is morality?

KingEbukasBlog:


Whats the obsession with evil sir ? If God does not exist , everything is permissible. There'd be no good or evil . How could there be evil if there is no such thing as objective morality? What you see as evil could be good to the next person . So is evil actually being permitted or what you perceive as evil - which could be perceived as good by another .

Only if you agree that there is such thing as objective good and evil, then your question would make sense !

If not , what you perceive as evil , is simply good to another .

Comprende sir ?

sorry, if incest is a sin in Israel but it isn’t a sin in India are you telling thar people who commit incest will go to hell fire ?

hakeem4:
sorry, if incest is a sin in Israel but it isn’t a sin in India are you telling thar people who commit incest will go to hell fire ?

OK this is funny

johnydon22:


OK this is funny

lol we have to clear the ground so all these theist would stop asking stupid questions about moralism

johnydon22:
I understand the perspective KingEbukasblog is addressing the problem from.

And I also understand that of Dalaman.

KingEbukas argument on this is valid, if morality is subjective on what basis do you accuse God of evil?

Because based on a particular subjective moral outlook God may be evil but on a different outlook that evil is good.

I think a definition is needed here.

What is morality?

If you say morality is objective, that is just a vague statement. What makes something moral?

Is it objectively moral because it is just like that without reason or is it objectively moral because there are elements/tenets or effects that makes it so?

We must define morality.

Once a definition is coined, subjectivity and objectivity comes second place

Well then

+ dalaman

Morality is concerned with our senses or beliefs about what is right or wrong behaviour.

Then for objective morality : What is morally wrong or right does not depend on our personal views of right or wrong behaviour . More like universal moral truths .

Subjective morality : What is morally wrong or right depends on our personal views and we can agree or not agree personally on what is right or wrong .

hakeem4:
sorry, if incest is a sin in Israel but it isn’t a sin in India are you telling thar people who commit incest will go to hell fire ?

You are just trying to ask what happens if societal moral standards are not congruent with God's moral standards. The answer is that anyone who conforms to societal standards which are not congruent with God's will face the condign punishment .

KingEbukasBlog:


Well then

+ dalaman

Morality is concerned with our senses or beliefs about what is right or wrong behaviour.

Then for objective morality : What is morally wrong or right does not depend on our personal views of right or wrong behaviour . More like universal moral truths .

Subjective morality : What is morally wrong or right depends on our personal views and we can agree or not agree personally on what is right or wrong .

Let me just agree with you about objective morality. Pls can you show how God made and establish objective morality and how every body that sees or agrees to it will know that it is God given?

Can morality be objective without God? Aagain how is God the source and being that establishes objective morality?

KingEbukasBlog:


You are just trying to ask what happens if societal moral standards are not congruent with God's moral standards. The answer is that anyone who conforms to societal standards which are not congruent with God's will face the condign punishment .

okay lets talk about the bible in genesis 38 vs 8-10 why did god slay onan, and some other tribes once you are a widow no one will have right to sleep with you. what should we do in that case

KingEbukasBlog:


Well then

+ dalaman

Morality is concerned with our senses or beliefs about what is right or wrong behaviour.

Then for objective morality : What is morally wrong or right does not depend on our personal views of right or wrong behaviour . More like universal moral truths .

Subjective morality : What is morally wrong or right depends on our personal views and we can agree or not agree personally on what is right or wrong .

I will address this when I open my laptop... Give me few minutes

dalaman:


Let me just agree with you about objective morality. Pls can you show how God made and establish objective morality and how every body that sees or agrees to it will know that it is God given?

I'll answer this later sir . Can't type it

Can morality be objective without God? Aagain how is God the source and being that establishes objective morality?

You can watch Dr Craig vs Sam Harris' debate video on YouTube . Sam Harris was expected to provide a basis for objective morality without God and he ended up embrassing himself .

To save you time because Sam Harris was bloviating as usual , here is why it's senseless to say you can have objective morality without God . And apparently, I was wrong about universal moral truths , universality isn't objectivity

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cDQzijl6El4


This is the second time I'm showing how unreasonable Sam Harris has been with the things he says and there are many of them yet Nigerian atheists hold him in high esteem .

Please watch the video , it answers so many questions.

hakeem4:
once you are a widow no one will have right to sleep with you. what should we do in that case

Sleep alone.

hakeem4:
sorry, if incest is a sin in Israel but it isn’t a sin in India are you telling thar people who commit incest will go to hell fire ?

If you enjoy incest, go live in India Sir.

KingEbukasBlog:


I'll answer this later sir . Can't type it

Can't type it or you want to run away from it as usual? I know you very well.

You can watch Dr Craig vs Sam Harris' debate video on YouTube . Sam Harris was expected to provide a basis for objective morality without God and he ended up embrassing himself .

To save you time because Sam Harris was bloviating as usual , here is why it's senseless to say you can have objective morality without God . And apparently, I was wrong about universal moral truths , universality isn't objectivity

https://youtube.com/watch?v=cDQzijl6El4


This is the second time I'm showing how unreasonable Sam Harris has been with the things he says and there are many of them yet Nigerian atheists hold him in high esteem .

Please watch the video , it answers so many questions.

I asked you a question and in your usual way, you are telling me to watch a video that does NOT answer my question in anyway.

How is God the basis of objective morality?
Can morality be objective without God? How is God the source and being that establishes objective morality?

KingEbukasBlog:


Well then

+ dalaman

Morality is concerned with our senses or beliefs about what is right or wrong behaviour.

Then for objective morality : What is morally wrong or right does not depend on our personal views of right or wrong behaviour . More like universal moral truths .

Subjective morality : What is morally wrong or right depends on our personal views and we can agree or not agree personally on what is right or wrong .

All right i am back now.

I wanted to address this since afternoon but i hate typing with my phone.

You have just defined for us what it means to be objective and subjective which is rather good.

But the point of my question was not what it means to be objective but what makes an objective morality objective.

Are there elements or implications that an action will possess before we can quantify such an action as objectively good?

What makes Good to be good?

johnydon22:


All right i am back now.

I wanted to address this since afternoon but i hate typing with my phone.

Welcome back

You have just defined for us what it means to be objective and subjective which is rather good.

But the point of my question was not what it means to be objective but what makes an objective morality objective.

Are there elements or implications that an action will possess before we can quantify such an action as objectively good?

Yeah . It is independent of a person's views or opinions and would be true no matter the situation

Example

Murder is morally bad

What makes Good to be good?

If it is in accordance to God's morally good nature and His moral laws . Remember , it is moral goodness not just good .

You can watch this video of William Craig vs Sam Harris video with some great explanations by William Craig on objective morality it answers a lot of questions .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDQzijl6El4

KingEbukasBlog:


Yeah . It is independent of a person's views or opinions and would be true no matter the situation

Says just same thing as your definition of objective morality which i agree with. Let me explain with a question below.

Example
Murder is morally bad

What makes murder wrong?

Is it wrong because God said it is, because it is etched in some kind of universal law or there are certain implications or standards that define the litmus tilt of such action?

If it is in accordance to God's morally good nature and His moral laws . Remember , it is moral goodness not just good .

Are God's action good because these actions are objectively good and coincides with a definite objective moral definition or are these actions good because they are God's?

johnydon22:


Says just same thing as your definition of objective morality which i agree with. Let me explain with a question below.



What makes murder wrong?

God's nature provides a reference point for moral values and duties . Moral goodness like love , peace , patience , harmony etc are of His nature. Murdering someone isn't an act of love or of peace and harmony but of hate , violence , wickedness - these are incongruous with the nature of God .

So as an atheist , why is murder right or wrong and on what basis did you make your judgement ?

Is it wrong because God said it is, because it is etched in some kind of universal law or there are certain implications or standards that define the litmus tilt of such action?
Are God's action good because these actions are objectively good and coincides with a definite objective moral definition or are these actions good because they are God's?

They are good because they are in accordance to God's nature as the epitome of moral goodness . I tried circumventing the euthyphro dilemma but you still brought it up anyway . The third option is that God's nature is the standard - His laws stem from His nature as the paragon of moral goodness .

As an atheist , why is something morally good ?

KingEbukasBlog:


God's nature provides a reference point for moral values and duties . Moral goodness like love , peace , patience , harmony [/b]etc are of His nature. Murdering someone isn't an act of love or of peace and harmony but of hate , violence , wickedness - these are incongruous with the nature of God

[b]So as an atheist , why is murder right or wrong and on what basis did you make your judgement ?

Are you sure your God's actions potray peace, patience and harmony? His actions in the bible says other wise.

"Sa 15:2 - This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
1Sa 15:3 - Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ ”

If murdering someone isn't an act of love but of hate , violence , wickedness, then what do you consider this injunction of total annihilation of people including infants and animals to be? Where is the patience, peace and harmony in this act? Do you consider the killing of infants an act of patience and love?

They are good because they are in accordance to God's nature as the epitome of moral goodness . I tried circumventing the euthyphro dilemma but you still brought it up anyway . The third option is that God's nature is the standard - His laws stem from His nature as the paragon of moral goodness .

As an atheist , why is something morally good ?

I see totalitarian and draconian acts in your God's nature. Acts that are very immoral even by his standard that you listed earlier.