brocab:
Does age have anything to do what you have given unto me, https://www.catholic.com/ firstly you winched I wasn't responding to these sites, now I am here, you are lost in words.
You said: to me if I wanted to know more about the Catholic's I can use these sites, well I am here.
Jesus said:If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand, and now it seems you aren't standing really well; maybe you should be searching the sites, and compare them with the scriptures, or maybe better for you is to keep on believing the lies you have been teaching since you have entered this page.
"But thanks I am quite pleased, about the differences the Catholic's know about each other.

shadeyinka:

So, we know why Joshua fell on his face before the ark of the covenant.

1.Is the Spirit of Mary in the Idols of Her Image?
2. Whose spirit is inside the idols of Mary?

9inches:

There is no spirits in statues and images. The Catholic Church does not believe any statue or image has any power in and of itself. For Catholics, having statues is just as natural as having pictures in our wallets to remind us of the ones we love here on earth. But reminding ourselves of loved ones is a far cry from idolatry.

shadeyinka:

Are you saying it is an empty idol? So, why bow before it if itbis that empty?

Would then kindly show us the similarity between the acts of Joshua and the catholics with respect to this?

Like, why did Joshua fall on his face before the ark of the covenant and why you Catholics bow before the image of Mary

9inches:


In the ancient world, pagans worshipped the elements of nature and false gods, which they represented as carved or cast images, of various sorts. Hence the commandment against these. On the other hand, even the Lord commanded certain images to be made for religious purposes, such as the bronze snake which Moses held up before the people, and some cast bulls which had water basins upon them in the Sanctuary of the Temple. So it is not the carved image itself which is evil, but the intent of those who look upon them or make them.

In the case of statues of Mary and the saints, we do NOT worship them, but they call to mind the figure they represent, whom we honor and whose prayers we invoke. NEVER has the Catholic Church tolerated the worship of any creature or anyone other than the one true God. Statues of Mary are no more idols than the photo of your family, which you display in your home, and has value for you for what it represents.

The Joshua story is not related to this.

Exodus 32:3-5
And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron.
And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

shadeyinka:
Do you really worship the statues of Mary?
No, not intentionally but you bow to it.

Your case is similar to that of Israel and the golden calf.
Here what Aaron said in the bolded below

(Exodus 32:1) “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.”

(Exodus 32:4) Then they said, “These are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”

shadeyinka:
It is like praying before an Idol in the name of Jesus. It can never be right.

Do you think it is right for a Catholic to construct an Image of Jehovah Yahweh for the purpose of personal worship in the name of Jesus?

9inches:

As a yoruba person, you worship your elders when you greet them, right?


Notice something common in those two verses?

Your opinion does not matter. What matters is what the bible says. Protestants make these blanket statements like "God has forbidden the use of images in worship." But if you search the scriptures (John 5:39), you will find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts (Ex. 25:18–20, 1 Chr. 28:18–19, Ezekiel 41:17–18, Num. 21:8–9).

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Yorubaland, people show respect by bowing or kneeling in greeting before an elder or a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

Further read: http://www.catholicconvert.com/blog/2016/07/12/do-catholics-worship-graven-images/

9inches:

As a yoruba person, you worship your elders when you greet them, right?

9inches:

Notice something common in those two verses?

Your opinion does not matter. What matters is what the bible says. Protestants make these blanket statements like "God has forbidden the use of images in worship." But if you search the scriptures (John 5:39), you will find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts (Ex. 25:18–20, 1 Chr. 28:18–19, Ezekiel 41:17–18, Num. 21:8–9).

Exodus 20:4-5
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

9inches:

Though bowing can be used as a posture in worship, not all bowing is worship. In Yorubaland, people show respect by bowing or kneeling in greeting before an elder or a king without worshipping him as a god. In the same way, a Catholic who may kneel in front of a statue while praying isn’t worshipping the statue or even praying to it, any more than the Protestant who kneels with a Bible in his hands when praying is worshipping the Bible or praying to it.

shadeyinka:

The Yoruba ATR claim that they do not worship their idols, the idols ate just channels to Olodumare. Yes, they bow down but their claim is that they do not worship other than God. How are you different?
If the Catholics are justified, can a Catholic insist that the Yoruba ATR worshippers are idolaters? (You both seem to be the same).

BTW, we greet our elders not by proxy: we greet them directly. If you want to call the worship of the queen of heaven greetings, you do it by proxy, hence idolatry.



I read all your scriptures unfortunately, they are all misquoted.
For the Ark of the Covenant, God promised to speak to the children of Israel from within it. And I asked, is the spirit of Mary in her image; you said no!
For the bronze serpent, the children of Israel were to look at it for their healing: That was Gods solution for their healing. What is the biblical bases for paying obeisance to an idol of Mary?

Does my opinion matter? No!
But the scripture matter especially when some godfathers decide to subtly introduce idolatory to the rest of you folks


The NOR here is exclusive. It means neither should you bow down to such images. Now, since neither God nor Mary are in your idols, why bow to them in direct violation of the scriptures.

Have you ever wondered why the images of Mary outnumber that of Jesus in the Catholic faith? If it was all for the sake of respect or greetings, who is more important: Jesus or Mary? But, the case isn't just this but a direct violation of the scriptures in the name of tradition.



The bolded is a complete misreprentation. A bible before a protestant has not a single spiritual value or connotation. Its as good as praying while kneeling down before a bed or a chair. Not so with you Catholics: the image of Mary is a spiritual object!


What is an idol?
An idol is simply a physical representative for the invisible demon spirit.

So, one could have 10,000 images (belonging to several individuals or communities) yet, one spirit behind it. Same with Mary.

Have you wondered why the spirit called Mary sometimes appear to Catholics?

How come Peter, Paul, James and John seldom appears but mainly Mary? I doubt you know that demons impasonates. I've even met one in the cause of deliverance who introduced himself as Jesus and said we should not cast him out!

Catholics who bow to an idol are paying respect to an image who is a proxy for the spirit in charge! That is pure idolatory.

Do you know that Buddhists claim they don't worship Buddha!? They only bow to his idol! How pathetic!? How are Catholics different?

A final question: Through which of the Apostles or the early Catholic church Fathers did your tradition of making the images of Mary and bowing before it come?

Every tradition must have a beginning, isn't it?

Dnaz:

What u think in ur head doesn't bother us

shadeyinka:

I understand!

I know it doesn't bother you. Does a pig ever bother about filth? No way! A pig no matter what you do to try to clean it up will always return to its filth.

An idolater will always remain one until his eyes are open to the wretchedness of his idolatory

Dnaz:

And. Heretic will always remain a Heretic until his eyes are open to the wretchedness of Heresy

shadeyinka:
The Yoruba ATR claim that they do not worship their idols, the idols ate just channels to Olodumare. Yes, they bow down but their claim is that they do not worship other than God. How are you different?
If the Catholics are justified, can a Catholic insist that the Yoruba ATR worshippers are idolaters? (You both seem to be the same).

BTW, we greet our elders not by proxy: we greet them directly. If you want to call the worship of the queen of heaven greetings, you do it by proxy, hence idolatry.

I read all your scriptures unfortunately, they are all misquoted.
For the Ark of the Covenant, God promised to speak to the children of Israel from within it. And I asked, is the spirit of Mary in her image; you said no!
For the bronze serpent, the children of Israel were to look at it for their healing: That was Gods solution for their healing. What is the biblical bases for paying obeisance to an idol of Mary?

Does my opinion matter? No!
But the scripture matter especially when some godfathers decide to subtly introduce idolatory to the rest of you folks

Exodus 20:4
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
The NOR here is exclusive. It means neither should you bow down to such images. Now, since neither God nor Mary are in your idols, why bow to them in direct violation of the scriptures.

Have you ever wondered why the images of Mary outnumber that of Jesus in the Catholic faith? If it was all for the sake of respect or greetings, who is more important: Jesus or Mary? But, the case isn't just this but a direct violation of the scriptures in the name of tradition.

The bolded is a complete misreprentation. A bible before a protestant has not a single spiritual value or connotation. Its as good as praying while kneeling down before a bed or a chair. Not so with you Catholics: the image of Mary is a spiritual object!

What is an idol?
An idol is simply a physical representative for the invisible demon spirit. So, one could have 10,000 images (belonging to several individuals or communities) yet, one spirit behind it. Same with Mary.

Have you wondered why the spirit called Mary sometimes appear to Catholics?

How come Peter, Paul, James and John seldom appears but mainly Mary? I doubt you know that demons impasonates. I've even met one in the cause of deliverance who introduced himself as Jesus and said we should not cast him out!

Catholics who bow to an idol are paying respect to an image who is a proxy for the spirit in charge! That is pure idolatory.

Do you know that Buddhists claim they don't worship Buddha!? They only bow to his idol! How pathetic!? How are Catholics different?

A final question: Through which of the Apostles or the early Catholic church Fathers did your tradition of making the images of Mary and bowing before it come?

Every tradition must have a beginning, isn't it?

9inches:

Catholics do not use images or statues as channels to God. Read my previous reply to understand the role of images in the Catholic Church. Yoruba ATF (I don't know what that is) can kiss or bow down to anything as they wish, it becomes idolatry as soon as they start crediting the image or statues with Divinity or Divine powers.

If you worship a person or thing whether by proxy or directly, it's idolatry.

9inches:

The scriptures aren't misquoted. You know it defeats your argument which is that God forbids the use of images in worship (not worshipping images). Those verses show making of images aren't forbidden. How they are used is what matters.

We don't pay obeisance to any idol of Mary. The same way you respect and adore your mother is the way we venerate her. But of course, as the only Mother of God, she deserves to be adored more than any mother but not worshipped. Just to add, having an photo of someone you love only creates an emotional presence of that person within you, it does not mean that the spirit of that person is present in that photo.
@bolded, Who are the godfathers? Any names?

noun
deferential respect.
"they paid obeisance to the Prince"
synonyms: respect, homage, worship, adoration, reverence, veneration, respectfulness, honour, submission, deference
"they paid obeisance to the Prince"
a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy.
plural noun: obeisances
"she made a deep obeisance"
synonyms: bow, curtsy, bob, genuflection

9inches:

@bolded, it says you shall not make any graven image at all, right? Yes or no? Explain verse 4 before we go to verse 5. What you fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his bible. Idolatry is committed by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them.

My experience with my pastor childhood friend says otherwise. The bible is a spiritual book. Would you tear up bible pages same way you would a notebook if you happen to run out of toilet paper? The bible contains the word of God, so it's not like every other book.

I think this video was made for you.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K9yGNPaIcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8p9i696K-o?t=5m24s

shadeyinka:

Of course Catholics do not claim that they worship Mary or her images. Just like the claim of the Yoruba ATR. Buy Catholics BOW to the image of Mary. That is not excusable, it is idolatory because the image of Mary is a proxy for Mary.

That is, if Mary was physically present, you would bow to her but since she is not present, the idol stands in proxy

If you bow down [b]for spiritual purposes[/b] to a person or thing whether by proxy or directly, it's idolatry.

You know them! They are not direct Apostles of Christ yet they have created traditions you use today. Except you can link any of the traditions we contest about to before 70AD.

If you don't pay obeisance, what do you do?

If you don't pay obeisance, what do you do?
noun
deferential respect.
synonyms: respect, homage, worship, adoration, reverence, veneration, respectfulness, honour, submission, deference
a gesture expressing deferential respect, such as a bow or curtsy.
https://www.google.com.ng/search?dcr=1&biw=360&bih=507&ei=kbK0WuEahv5Sr8uPkAM&q=obeisance

You do pay obeisance

Except you still believe you don't do obeisance to the idol of Mary. In the scripture I quoted, I highlighted the NOR bow to them which of course you do.
Of course I wouldn't just tear a bible but I won't bow to it for any reason. It may contain the logos, but it is just wood pulp converted to paper and bound.

Idols of Mary are made up of Plaster , cement and paint. God forbid that I pay any form of obeisance to it as a proxy to anything living or dead.

9inches:

You are something else. On one hand you were saying bowing is worship, on the other hand you essentially say bowing is okay as long as it's not "spiritual"... Which one is it? You have a hole in your argument. I say, it's either bowing and kissing of any person or thing is idolatry or it's not. Period. I've never encountered any Catholic who thinks statues or images have any spiritual attribute. Only protestants think that due to their shallow and decontextualized interpretation of the scripture. Without the Catholic Church,you won't have this bible you are thumping. Read some history on Christianity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrvktdJJUIk

This is laughable. Why not discard the Gospel of John, Epistle of John and Revelation from your bible since they were written long after 70AD? By the way, do you know when the bible was put together, who did that and how it was done and confirmed free of heresy. Bear in mind the apostles did not leave a defined set of new scriptures aside the Old Testament; instead the canon of the New Testament developed over time. Groups within Christianity include differing books as part of their sacred writings, most prominent among which are the biblical apocrypha or deuterocanonical books.

Do you know any of the early Christians (Church Fathers) like those of the second century who fought to protect the teachings of Christ from heresy which was strife during that era? People like Ignatius of Antioch, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Irenaeus of Lyons, etc... have you heard of them and the journey they and others went through so that you could have an error-free Word of God in your hand right now? You have a lot of reading grounds to cover man.

Do you pay obeisance to your elders like your parents? Obeisance can mean worship, so we are careful enough not use that. We use the exact words that explain what we do - honor, adoration, veneration... I can understand your predicament; protestants don't know where to draw the line between reverence and worship. And I know that's where the whole argument of Catholics worshipping idols emanate from.

You're skipping the question! What do you understand by "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."? (Exodus 20:4)

What do you think about kissing the bible or a photograph of someone, is it idolatry too ? So from own understanding, "should you pay obeisance to any person other than God?"

shadeyinka:

Images of Mary dont have spiritual values yet the Pope also bow to them. I have never seen a Catholic bow to the church bell in its tower because it doesn't have any spiritual value. Idols of Mary have spiritual values to you and that is why you bow down to them.

I have given you the definition of obeisance: which is what you really do to the image proxy of Mary.

Revelation was written before the fallbof Jerusalem. Apostle John was still alive

9inches:


Read your comment again. How can someone bow to a church bell when it does not an image of anyone important. You are also saying something about spirituality but then you are talking about "bowing" which is a physical gesture. You are concerned that Catholics bow down to statues, but really, you are confusing what is in the heart of the believer and judging by outward appearances. So listen again, first step of idolatry is crediting an image or statue with Divinity or Divine powers. It clearly evidenced in Exodus 32:1, "When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don’t know what has happened to him.” You can clearly the intent to attribute divine powers to the images, which makes it valid as idolatry.

I know you are having a hard time with Exodus 20:4. But I will let that pass; I hope you take it as an assignment, take your time and look further and figure it out.

God bless.

shadeyinka:

The only thing short is that you don't call the idol of Mary " god". Other than that, there is no difference between you and the Ogun priest

9inches:
There are criteria for putting tags/names to things, unless you are a toddler in kindergarten.

Good thing! It's good the line remains there, abi? Shows I'm in line with early Christian practice, rather than a 1517 man-made doctrine of Martin Luther.

shadeyinka:

I don't know Martin Luther.
Are you mad with him because he left the Catholic faith?

Yes, I understand. The runaway priest who broke up the catholic faith. All Christians would have been bowing to the image of Mary if not for him.

Eiya! Sorry!

9inches:


I had to ask because you don't come off articulate. I'm glad you are reading it. I encourage you to read more, not necessarily to believe anything, but so you can at least argue on what the Church teaches, not what you think it teaches.

9inches:
I'm not mad, just pointing it out for you. You say you don't know him, so you can't say the doctrines he contested before he was excommunicated from the Church for heresy. Mind you, he did not "leave", he was excommunicated for heresy and he wasn't the first.

shadeyinka:

I don't care a hoot about Martin Luther.

He would certainly have faced the Inquisition if he was caught from his hiding places

brocab:
It is pretty clear what it teaches, the problem is, you have many Catholic's deciding what to write, and there are many interpretations, it seems the Catholic's writing these interpretations, haven't a clue which God they believe.

9inches:
I doubt it's clear to you when you haven't read it. You can't find problem from what you have not read. Learn church history so you know where you belong.

brocab:
Church history is not where I belong, Christ is where I belong.
According to {1 Timothy 3:15} the house of God “is the church of the living God.”
Does anybody live in the Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church "The Spirit of Truth or the Spirit of Error, Now he who keeps the Lords commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Does the Catholic Church abide with Martin Luther, does abide with anybody outside the Catholic Church?
{John 2:2-8} The Test of Knowing Him-Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning.
{1 Corinthians 1:10-13} Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.
Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” {or I am of the Catholic Church} or “I am of Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? {Was the Catholic Church crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of the Catholic Church?}

9inches:


It happens same way your mother makes a very dangerous decision to give birth to you and also to force you to school, for your own good. Baptism does not guarantee anyone heaven.

Dnaz:

By the Works of the Law shall no one be Justified. U don't even Keep the Sabbath of the 10 commandments , u use Gods name in vain not forgetting Lying Cheating Immorality. U Judge Catholics as Idolaters but you are also guilty of Breaking the Law. Examine yourself. The Whole law is Fulfilled on one Commandment ,YOU shall love your neighbor.

Dnaz:

Nobody and I mean no one has fulfilled the 10/commandments literally .So before u Judge Catholics Examine yourself first and see if u are in the truth. By the Works of the Law shall no one be Justified. U don't even Keep the Sabbath of the 10 commandments , u use Gods name in vain not forgetting Lying Cheating Immorality. U Judge Catholics as Idolaters but you are also guilty of Breaking the Law. Examine yourself. The Whole law is Fulfilled on one Commandment ,YOU shall love your neighbor.
And in Christ Jesus neither Iconoclasm or Iconophilia is of Any Avail but Father Working through Love

brocab:
Church history is not where I belong, Christ is where I belong.
According to {1 Timothy 3:15} the house of God “is the church of the living God.”
Does anybody live in the Catholic Church. Is the Catholic Church "The Spirit of Truth or the Spirit of Error, Now he who keeps the Lords commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
Does the Catholic Church abide with Martin Luther, does abide with anybody outside the Catholic Church?
{John 2:2-8} The Test of Knowing Him-Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.
Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning.
{1 Corinthians 1:10-13} Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe’s household, that there are contentions among you.
Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” {or I am of the Catholic Church} or “I am of Christ.”
Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? {Was the Catholic Church crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of the Catholic Church?}

9inches:
Jesus established one church only and prayed "that they may be one." He took that one Church as His bride. Just that one Church only. Read your bible and stop pulling verses like a disturbed individual.