Barezzi:
Most times epistles are necessary S007.

Great job Makavele!

I second the motion above.
A 6-way DB for your AC in/out, booster pump etc. This will fit nicely in that space cluttered with 20A switches.

The a/c in is already drawn from the main house DB a dedicated breaker before it reaches the 20a switch as a secondary disconnect, so thats enough protection.

I actually thought of getting a miniature DB for the a/c out of things, but thats a story for another day.
it would have been easier in the first location, as it is, the inverter was relocated to a more spacious spot, albeit far from the main house DB.
so too much work to start joining and drawing load wires all the way. will be done but not in any of my plans for now.

S007:
quote author=makavele post=69564967]And the final look . . .

Replaced the sockets with 20A switches for input and output disconnect; the 3rd one up is for the automatic water pressure booster.






So at is my battery bank stands at: 19680 kWh and panels at 3kWp.

The only issue I am having now is some of my batteries are out of sync.

Would have to order more balancers before it's too late.

And I think I would have to create a dedicated earthing rod brouhaha for the inverter system; because

I am having issues with that annoying un-grounded current flowing through the inverter chassis when I am standing barefoot on the floor.

How do I fix this please?

What a wonderful DIY job. I have seen quite a few DIY and ones done by 'installers'. This one will rank among the very good ones. Board is well arranged. Cables are well crimped, insulated and routed. I can connect with your thought process. I know you must have spent a lot of times thinking things through. It is not easy. Weldone sir!

I have the following suggestions to make. You have already done almost all the hard work so these are probably improvement opportunities.

1. Replace the 20A switches with AC circuit breakers. Circuit breakers are the right component for your inverter input and output. They will serve two purpose. They will serve as disconnect and they will also protect your cables and inverter in the day of trouble. Cost is about the same as 20A switches.

2. Looking at the final picture, I can not see any protection for your inverter cable to battery. If it is there all well and good. If it is not there, there are different methods you can use. You can use a battery disconnect in series with an inline fuse. Alternatively you can use a DC breaker which will serve as both disconnect and protection. I prefer the DC breaker option.

3. For the battery issues, HA02 will do the magic. Oga Niyi has done justice to this one already.

4. Earthing.... earthing issues discussed some pages back. There is no 'one rule fits all' All inverters are not same. One good starting point will be to look at your inverter manual for earthing requirements, then move forward from there.
To avoid writing an epistle I have to stop here.

Weldone sir!

There is a breaker on negative inverter cable, affixed to the rack [ oh i forgot to snap the rack ] yes and one unit of HA02. Thats why I said I needed to order more before its too late.

makavele:
And the final look . . .

Replaced the sockets with 20A switches for input and output disconnect; the 3rd one up is for the automatic water pressure booster.

Good morning Sir.. I can see all renewable materials supplied ready for action ! Pls ensure you use a battery balancer for your bank . Do not also forget to use a central servo stab of your choice ratings / budget ! We also use DC 250a breakers for the inverter to battery connection "aids in easy disconnect to your aligned busbar & safety".. The leakage or little shocks you feel can be solved by simply earth rod grounding .
Contact me for Schneider SPD or MNSPD"if you are in a thunder prone Lekki area" ... We also supply industrial salt, copper earth cables, pure copper earth rods of any length/ft you wish to use .

Smartcell global services,
081-350-31951

pranil:


Congratulations lot of hard work has gone in it .

The installation looks to me similar to Salvador Dali's painting. Beautiful but not following the standards
All wires are existing at an odd angle from the machines.
the first rule of electrical wiring is the wires exist straight out of the box and then bent away on the insulation portion preferable after strain relief.
When you open a normal 13 amp plug you will see that the space inside is left for wire to come out and bend and then clamped together on insulation before it exists the plug to avoid failure
This is to avoid straining the connector and the wire near it's weakest point ( as it is stripped for the connection)

this guide (especially point 5 and 6 ) will be useful for the D.i.y. installers - https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WqDrBT0sB5MrhoB0Joev8wTeCunOYs6F/view?usp=sharing

The only wire I can see with my "novice" eyes coming out the opposite direction is the inverter negative cable . . .
please clarify more and i,ll see if it is fix-worthy
are you talking bout the blue and yellow wires (battery to bus bar cables)
i doubt so. once again clarify, until then, peace out

makavele:


There is a breaker on negative inverter cable, affixed to the rack [ oh i forgot to snap the rack ] yes and one unit of HA02. Thats why I said I needed to order more before its too late.

A unit of the 48vdc balancer can actually serve for your design if only you are a fan of looping extra 2.5mm cables .. If you ain't comfortable with looping cables due to little stress involved, its best you simply add another battery balancer. Cheer's

kiekie1:


Good morning Sir.. I can see all renewable materials supplied ready for action ! Pls ensure you use a battery balancer for your bank . Do not also forget to use a central servo stab of your choice ratings / budget ! We also use DC 250a breakers for the inverter to battery connection "aids in easy disconnect to your aligned busbar & safety".. The leakage or little shocks you feel can be solved by simply earth rod grounding .
Contact me for Schneider SPD or MNSPD"if you are in a thunder prone Lekki area" ... We also supply industrial salt, copper earth cables, pure copper earth rods of any length/ft you wish to use .

Smartcell global services,
081-350-31951

Good morning bossman,

For now, i'll love to see how I can fix the leakage cos of kids who might be curious to touch even with warning signs glaringly displayed.
my house is a 6 bedroom duplex so a central voltage stabilizer was necessary a long time ago.
The breaker is a 100A rating, would increase to 250A as said and then we will chat privately, of course!
How are you today?

kiekie1:


A unit of the 48vdc balancer can actually serve for your design if only you are a fan of looping extra 2.5mm cables .. If you ain't comfortable with looping cables due to little stress involved, its best you simply add another battery balancer. Cheer's

Do you have a diagram you can share for the looping? Let me see if i can try

makavele:


Good morning bossman,

For now, i'll love to see how I can fix the leakage cos of kids who might be curious to touch even with warning signs glaringly displayed.
my house is a 6 bedroom duplex so a central voltage stabilizer was necessary a long time ago.
The breaker is a 100A rating, would increase to 250A as said and then we will chat privately, of course!
How are you today?

I am very fine Sir! Nope a 100a "dcb/disconnect catridge" breaker is too small for a 4 to 6kw pure sinewave inverter design .. We have the bigger 250a cartridge disconnect and also single pole industrial 250vdc DC breaker for your system design.. Let's meet in the other room once again .. Cheers

makavele:


Do you have a diagram you can share for the looping? Let me see if i can try

Yes its very effective too since you are on a 48v stringed 210a bank.. I will send you schematic here or via whatsapp as usual ! Cheer's

kiekie1:


Yes its very effective too since you are on a 48v stringed 210a bank.. I will send you schematic here or via whatsapp as usual ! Cheer's

Correction: bank 1 is 48v 210ah
bank 2 is 48v 200ah

total bank: 48v 410ah

makavele:


Correction: bank 1 is 48v 210ah
bank 2 is 48v 200ah

total bank: 48v 410ah

Hmmn , on same inverter ? I didn't see clear pictures tho ! Are they different batt banks? If No, how did you integrate all .. Thanks

S007:


What an analogy. All die na die. The end result will be to sell the batteries to Kiekie as scrap.

Haha .. I am always reachable and readily available for scrap batteries Sir. The nature of our renewable energy job do not make us stay in one spot on daily basis..You are right anyway ! Remain blessed..Cheer's

kiekie1:


Hmmn , on same inverter ? I didn't see clear pictures tho ! Are they different batt banks? If No, how did you integrate all .. Thanks

i had 24v 400ah bank on the microtek 2kva before
convert to 48v 200ah
used a dual battery bank selector
can switch from bank a to b like hot knife through butter

makavele:


i had 24v 400ah bank on the microtek 2kva before
convert to 48v 200ah
used a dual bank battery selector
can switch from bank a to b like hot knife through butter

Okay lovely.. Independent battery banks as seen ! You simply need schematics for 48vdc balancer as said earlier .. Let's meet in the other room as usual

How did you arrive at the bolded?

4kw/48Vdc *1.25 is around 100A.

For 5kva inverters, 125A is the typical recommendation.

kiekie1:


I am very fine Sir! Nope a 100a "dcb/disconnect catridge" breaker is too small for a 4 to 6kw pure sinewave inverter design .. We have the bigger 250a cartridge disconnect and also single pole industrial 250vdc DC breaker for your system design.. Let's meet in the other room once again .. Cheers

Barezzi:
How did you arrive at the bolded?

4kw/48Vdc *1.25 is around 100A.

For 5kva inverters, 125A is the typical recommendation.

Namesake free that matter abeg ..Makavele is a practical man not theory .. Most pure sinewave 5kva inverters which isn't upto 4kw power use factory fitted 200a DCB .. Cyberpower is a good example! Bluegate 2kva uses 100a dcb etc .. That power starlight 5kw inverter you see in pics is a major load bearer with high surge capability and it won't make much sense using 125a small DCB for its DC cables as 250a will very much trip on practical wrong polarity mistakes and also carry basic,heavy loads needed as a 5kw or 6kw does without DCB tripping or overheating ! Cheer's

No wahala bro! How family?
Make we jam for za oza room.

Barezzi:

No wahala bro! How family?
Make we jam for za oza room.

We bless God Sir.. I have been a lil down with fever but am feeling much better today after yesterday's drip .. Are you in Lagos state for now ? Notwithstanding I fit manage drive come island, abeg throat dey scratch me small

You are on point.

But you refused to give credit to the inventor of this hack/workaround

kiekie1:


A unit of the 48vdc balancer can actually serve for your design if only you are a fan of looping extra 2.5mm cables .. If you ain't comfortable with looping cables due to little stress involved, its best you simply add another battery balancer. Cheer's

The convention is to break/disconnect at the positive side of the battery cable, then you may use the negative side to pass a shunt to measure power in or out as required - adhering to this convention is especially good in a negative grounded system given the way DC current is thought to flow from positive to negative (speaks plenty English and waxes technical, philosophical and professorial all in one about the technicalities of negative grounding vs positive and allied matters ).

Practically I don't see any danger at the DC nominal bus voltages you are working with but for the sake of compliance you may consider doing it the conventional way.

Lovely work you have done with this install - it is a great aesthetic standard to aspire to and I will try to beat it in my next job

makavele:


There is a breaker on negative inverter cable, affixed to the rack [ oh i forgot to snap the rack ] yes and one unit of HA02. Thats why I said I needed to order more before its too late.

kiekie1:


Namesake free that matter abeg ..Makavele is a practical man not theory .. Most pure sinewave 5kva inverters which isn't upto 4kw power use factory fitted 200a DCB .. Cyberpower is a good example! Bluegate 2kva uses 100a dcb etc .. That power starlight 5kw inverter you see in pics is a major load bearer with high surge capability and it won't make much sense using 125a small DCB for its DC cables as 250a will very much trip on practical wrong polarity mistakes and also carry basic,heavy loads needed as a 5kw or 6kw does without DCB tripping or overheating ! Cheer's

The DC circuit breaker should be sized based on the maximum current the installed inverter-battery cable can safely carry. Oga Pranil has reiterate this point several times.
Breaker and cable requirents for a 5kva/24V inverter is different from the requirements for a 5kva/48V.
I think the correct sequence should be as follows.
1. Determine the maximum current that will flow through the system during charging and inverting. The inverter manual will help with this.
2. Choose a cable with a CSA that will safely carry the maximum current. The more the distance between inverter and battery, the more the cable size. There are other considerations e.g conduit or open air installation etc.
3. Choose a breaker below the cable ampacity rating as determined in 2 above.

S007:


The DC circuit breaker should be sized based on the maximum current the installed inverter-battery cable can safely carry. Oga Pranil has reiterate this point several times.
Breaker and cable requirents for a 5kva/24V inverter is different from the requirements for a 5kva/48V.
I think the correct sequence should be as follows.
1. Determine the maximum current that will flow through the system during charging and inverting. The inverter manual will help with this.
2. Choose a cable with a CSA that will safely carry the maximum current. The more the distance between inverter and battery, the more the cable size. There are other considerations e.g conduit or open air installation etc.
3. Choose a breaker below the cable ampacity rating as determined in 2 above.

Bro, dnt worry about all that theoretical explanations as its not new tho . we see so many DC 250a catridge disconnect in various installation designs for a reason and don't presume they are mistakes or the fuses don't blow up when you mistakenly misplace DC polarity .. I made clear illustrations with Netherlands Cyberpower 5kva 48v design with 200a DCB and can go on & on but I dnt really cherish typing handouts... I once was asked a question by a known company on why most people use DC breakers for DC isolation , dnt you also think AC breakers rated at same amps works on PV combiners too since the sole function isn't to trip when functional but only to prevent further bridging/arcing > fire damage .. Rather than undersizing a load bearer breaker , why not simply use 150/250a DCB and let peace reign on the said 5 or 6kw system designed for heavier surge loads because the sole function which its used for are basically for disconnection/maintenance sake and wrong polarity safety ! I rest my case ... Cheer's

NiyiOmoIyunade:
The convention is to break/disconnect at the positive side of the battery cable, then you may use the negative side to pass a shunt to measure power in or out as required - adhering to this convention is especially good in a negative grounded system given the way DC current is thought to flow from positive to negative (speaks plenty English and waxes technical, philosophical and professorial all in one about the technicalities of negative grounding vs positive and allied matters ).

Practically I don't see any danger at the DC nominal bus voltages you are working with but for the sake of compliance you may consider doing it the conventional way.

Lovely work you have done with this install - it is a great aesthetic standard to aspire to and I will try to beat it in my next job

Yes, but for custom reasons, I need the circuitry to remain active at a point, that's why I went with the low-side disconnect as against the conventional high-side disconnect. It was well thought out.
Glad to see you appreciate the aesthetics. I appreciate it too.

kiekie1:


Bro, dnt worry about all that theoretical explanations as its not new tho . we see so many DC 250a catridge disconnect in various installation designs for a reason and don't presume they are mistakes or the fuses don't blow up when you mistakenly misplace DC polarity .. I made clear illustrations with Netherlands Cyberpower 5kva 48v design with 200a DCB and can go on & on but I dnt really cherish typing handouts... I once was asked a question by a known company on why most people use DC breakers for DC isolation , dnt you also think AC breakers rated at same amps works on PV combiners too since the sole function isn't to trip when functional but only to prevent further bridging/arcing > fire damage .. Rather than undersizing a load bearer breaker , why not simply use 150/250a DCB and let peace reign on the said 5 or 6kw system designed for heavier surge loads because the sole function which its used for are basically for disconnection/maintenance sake and wrong polarity safety ! I rest my case ... Cheer's

Bro. I am not writing here for typing sake or to prove 'I too know'. You would have noticed I rarely make contributions.
My explanation is not theory. This is pure practical. I have a 175amp DC breaker on my inverter panel which is a 48V DC system. On 24V version, I know the breaker size is 250Amp.
The question is why did the manufacturer decide to put these sizes there? The breakers are not undersized, neither are they oversized. The number one reason is not Isolation. It is also not maintenance.
If you try to find honest answers to this question, I am sure everything will become clear.
I am a learner as long as I live. Cheers

S007:


Bro. I am not writing here for typing sake or to prove 'I too know'. You would have noticed I rarely make contributions.
My explanation is not theory. This is pure practical. I have a 175amp DC breaker on my inverter panel which is a 48V DC system. On 24V version, I know the breaker size is 250Amp.
The question is why did the manufacturer decide to put these sizes there? The breakers are not undersized, neither are they oversized. The number one reason is not Isolation. It is also not maintenance.
If you try to find honest answers to this question, I am sure everything will become clear.
I am a learner as long as I live. Cheers

Interesting!

mrsdaniel:


Nice argument but you both are likely on same page with your comparison above.Your inverter which we didn't get the brand name has 175A whilst his own 5 KVA came packaged with 200A types for reasons you said you dont really know, haha.if 200A will trip and protect his own system from gruesome damage,we really need to save the stress arguing vain most times as breakers have safety trip reasons installed as the op stated too regarding DC usage.most Nigerians generally don't care about all these ratings real life application,we mostly know and nobody wants to order breakers for experiment and it ends up tripping for no reason.y'al both all have a point I think.My 2cents

Neat setup I must say to Makavele.how is the performance of the slim batteries ?
CC:Makavele

It is clear you don't understand my message. This is not vain arguments. The reason why these rating of circuit breakers are put on inverters I do know. I have been in this field for close to three decades. Kiekie is not entirely wrong either.
My inverter did not come with one pre-installed. I have an inverter panel of same brand that came with one. These are two different things and you have to select the right panel for your application.
For your inverter, have you wondered why the manufacturer did not put 500A, 1000A or even 50A in there. Like you said, most Nigerians don't care about these things.
Many inverters do not come with an inverter-battery DC breaker as part of the setup. It is an important part of the jigsaw puzzle. If it is a DIY, one has to determine the right one to put there.
Putting the right one there means avoiding nuisance and unnecessary trips. It also means the CB will do it's job when required.
I can tell you many people depends on threads like these for education and to make the right decision. Putting the right message there goes a long way in helping others.

SolnergyPower:
Sir, with your permission, I do like to lift the content of one of the articles in website to our website and we'll adequately reference you.

Your article URL is http://bobby.com.ng/2017/06/28/felicity-inverter-a-short-review/

Our website is http://JezPower.com

Thank you.

sorry for the late reply. the content on my blog are under the creative commons share and share alike. Feel free as long as your reference the source.

Kiekie, the main reason you use a circuit breaker or fuse is to protect the conductors from overheating. The large breaker e.g 250A is used on some inverters because it has been determined that the circuitry within the inverter can safely handle that current. A breaker on an inverter is not intended to protect the cables attached to the inverter and should not be used as a benchmark to size any breaker attached to the battery bank.

To size a circuit breaker for the battery, you only have to calculate the ampacity of the cables you are using and the maximum voltage you need to break. It has nothing to do with the inverter size. That said, you should make sure the cables are correctly sized for the inverter.

mrsdaniel:


Nice argument but you both are likely on same page with your comparison above.Your inverter which we didn't get the brand name has 175A whilst his own 5 KVA came packaged with 200A types for reasons you said you dont really know, haha.if 200A will trip and protect his own system from gruesome damage,we really need to save the stress arguing vain most times as breakers have safety trip reasons installed as the op stated too regarding DC usage.most Nigerians generally don't care about all these ratings real life application,we mostly know and nobody wants to order breakers for experiment and it ends up tripping for no reason.y'al both all have a point I think.My 2cents

Neat setup I must say to Makavele.how is the performance of the slim batteries ?
CC:Makavele

Nice and simple summary.. Thanks & happy Sunday

Wazari:
Kiekie, the main reason you use a circuit breaker or fuse is to protect the conductors from overheating. The large breaker e.g 250A is used on some inverters because it has been determined that the circuitry within the inverter can safely handle that current. A breaker on an inverter is not intended to protect the cables attached to the inverter and should not be used as a benchmark to size any breaker attached to the battery bank.

To size a circuit breaker for the battery, you only have to calculate the ampacity of the cables you are using and the maximum voltage you need to break. It has nothing to do with the inverter size. That said, you should make sure the cables are correctly sized for the inverter.

Yes its nothing new as i expressed earlier .. To be candid,there are so many research links via Google for substantial knowledge as what works for A might not work for B diy'ist. . . I still maintain my stand about the above posted pics in which we have different types of inverters with various types of DCB amperage.He might be digging facts from what came with a USA magnum panel"175a" whilst a modest chinese spec will use 200a in same application for reasons best known to them! Mrs Daniel made a general point about the Nigerian context and it applies to where do one get 175a DCB unless if ordered specially which most don't really care and use the available close alternative 200-250a in the open market.These are DC breakers we are talking about and nobody will advice you do a wrong connection for practical sake even though my cyberpower has 1but most inverters in the open market don't have . Magnum 4348 dosnt have unless you get the mount panel. Hope you know how many pages we have thrashed on same forum even with controversial arguments here & there but most still repeat by saying "its bulky and they can't go through all" Nobody is misleading anybody unless you wanna get mislead .. Cheer's !

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