Babyvet:


Interesting posts from that quora thread , it seems like a lot of people agreed that person coming from a poor developed nation would see the U.S as great . For those who lived in other developed the us was okay or overrated. I agree with their sentiments.

That is what I'm trying to explain to her about being rich, but I hope she reads the thread anyway.

Babyvet:


Just a genuine question, so are you saying that nobody should move back home? I’m just curious , which part of the world do you live?

Not at all.. but I just smile when I see people abroad displaying such passion to return home.. that used to be me until I saw things for myself.

I was born and brought up in Lagos.. had a wonderful childhood filled with amazing friends and family. Moved abroad as a teen and for many years dreamt of returning home. After getting my stay, I eventually returned home.. I was promised heaven and earth by friends and family.. although had already made up my mind that no matter what I face I will slug it out.. there's no place like home. etc..

I eventually learnt that INDEED there is no place like home because Nigeria is a special kind of hell.

The Nigeria of the 90s is not the Nigeria of today. Mediocity & superficiality is the order of the day. Everyone wants to "pepper dem" with nothing in their pockets. I personally know of a doctor who is often borrowing money from his junior brother abroad to repair his car, pay his rent etc.. A doctor abroad can never suffer in his life.. whether black white or asian..

When you see the way bankers dress ehn .. you will think they are gods on earth whereas their day to day job is parading up and down in the hot sun looking for "clients" for the bank. The salary is next to nothing. What other decent paying jobs are there for graduates?

In Nigeria you will see people renting decrepit apartments but driving flashy borrowed cars, stunting on instagram etc.. why? Because people respect you based on how you dress and not the content of your character..

Basic infastructure = zero..

Friends and family will famz you only when they have something to gain. Or if you simply appear to be a "big girl" or "big boy" A poor man has no friends in Nigeria.

To cut long story short. I have returned to my base. A country where I actually have a decent career, a place where you can save your earnings and live a decent life. A place where I feel no pressure to prove myself to anyone or "pepper dem".

At least here, I have made roots: decent friendships (most of them are fellow blacks like me) theres no food in Niaja that isnt here.. my family is here too.. what am I missing? I have learnt that home is where you make it.

People will encourage you to come home to "invest in opportunities" either because they want to gain something from you or they want you to come suffer the hardship there with them... but believe me, once money finishes .. your so called "loved ones" will leave you high and dry. Some will even scam you off the little you have left.

yemiosinbajo:


See, I live in the US so I know what I'm saying; I don't have to argue with you. If it was the way you said it, the rich would choose to live abroad instead. If you have some time, get a copy of AMERICANAH by Chimamanda Adichie, and find out why Obinze chose to go back to Nigeria with his wealth, and why Ifemelu later went back after acquiring US citizenship. If you could afford to buy a range rover and pay for it in cash at once in Nigeria, isn't that wealth? How many Americans can afford that? Is that what you will call "normal" in America. How about the paying of taxes? Do you know how that affects the rich? Why are you intrigued by the visa-free opportunity? First, if you are rich, no one will deny you a visa, so you can still visit the same countries that the visa-free citizen visits, so what exactly is the advantage of the visa-free chance you get? How many countries do you necessarily have to visit if you are rich, is everyone interested in travelling like that? Most times, the rich is going to these countries for one conference or the other which is by invitation, so who will deny them a visa?

Look, I want us to be very objective in our conversation here. There are a lot of things I could say, but I'm at work now. If you have some time, this discussion was already on Quora, it has over 100 answers: Is getting an American citizenship the best thing? Take time and read through, and it will explain a lot of things I wanted to tell you: https://www.quora.com/Is-having-a-child-born-into-U-S-citizenship-the-best-thing-that-could-happen-to-a-prospective-parent-from-another-nation

Don't get me wrong, getting an American citizenship is great; but this is only for the poor and middle-class. If you are rich, you don't need it. If you are Nigerian and RICH, you will rather live in Nigeria than abroad. Have you ever wondered why people like Dora Akunyili renounced their green cards? Or why Wole Soyinka would not apply for a citizenship, and not live in the US? Or why Obasanjo still keeps living in his Ogun State farm even after leaving politics, though he could still be embezzling money for America if he wanted? Or why Davido or Tiwa Savage would rather live in Nigeria even with their US citizenships- do you even think these guys will break through in music if they remained in the US?

On my way to work as I read this. I have a car that I pay for but due to traffic and costs of fuel it's cheaper to bus. I have a good job but I find it difficult to stretch my paychecks because of the cost of living here in Vancouver, BC. Preach!

In Naija you can make abroad in your small compound and be living like a king for a fraction of the cost

yemiosinbajo:


See, I live in the US so I know what I'm saying; I don't have to argue with you. If it was the way you said it, the rich would choose to live abroad instead. If you have some time, get a copy of AMERICANAH by Chimamanda Adichie, and find out why Obinze chose to go back to Nigeria with his wealth, and why Ifemelu later went back after acquiring US citizenship. If you could afford to buy a range rover and pay for it in cash at once in Nigeria, isn't that wealth? How many Americans can afford that? Is that what you will call "normal" in America. How about the paying of taxes? Do you know how that affects the rich? Why are you intrigued by the visa-free opportunity? First, if you are rich, no one will deny you a visa, so you can still visit the same countries that the visa-free citizen visits, so what exactly is the advantage of the visa-free chance you get? How many countries do you necessarily have to visit if you are rich, is everyone interested in travelling like that? Most times, the rich is going to these countries for one conference or the other which is by invitation, so who will deny them a visa?

Look, I want us to be very objective in our conversation here. There are a lot of things I could say, but I'm at work now. If you have some time, this discussion was already on Quora, it has over 100 answers: Is getting an American citizenship the best thing? Take time and read through, and it will explain a lot of things I wanted to tell you: https://www.quora.com/Is-having-a-child-born-into-U-S-citizenship-the-best-thing-that-could-happen-to-a-prospective-parent-from-another-nation

Don't get me wrong, getting an American citizenship is great; but this is only for the poor and middle-class. If you are rich, you don't need it. If you are Nigerian and RICH, you will rather live in Nigeria than abroad. Have you ever wondered why people like Dora Akunyili renounced their green cards? Or why Wole Soyinka would not apply for a citizenship, and not live in the US? Or why Obasanjo still keeps living in his Ogun State farm even after leaving politics, though he could still be embezzling money for America if he wanted? Or why Davido or Tiwa Savage would rather live in Nigeria even with their US citizenships- do you even think these guys will break through in music if they remained in the US?

Chiamanda lives in America my dear
I appreciate the few names you have dropped here but please speak from your own experience and those around you. are you rich? What opportunities has Nigeria offered you. I am open to learn.

sweetmelanin:


Not at all.. but I just smile when I see people abroad displaying such passion to return home.. that used to be me until I saw things for myself.

I was born and brought up in Lagos.. had a wonderful childhood filled with amazing friends and family. Moved abroad as a teen and for many years dreamt of returning home. After getting my stay, I eventually returned home.. I was promised heaven and earth by friends and family.. although had already made up my mind that no matter what I face I will slug it out.. there's no place like home. etc..

I eventually learnt that INDEED there is no place like home because Nigeria is a special kind of hell.

The Nigeria of the 90s is not the Nigeria of today. Mediocity & superficiality is the order of the day. Everyone wants to "pepper dem" with nothing in their pockets. I personally know of a doctor who is often borrowing money from his junior brother abroad to repair his car, pay his rent etc.. A doctor abroad can never suffer in his life.. whether black white or asian..

When you see the way bankers dress ehn .. you will think they are gods on earth whereas their day to day job is parading up and down in the hot sun looking for "clients" for the bank. The salary is next to nothing. What other decent paying jobs are there for graduates?

In Nigeria you will see people renting decrepit apartments but driving flashy borrowed cars, stunting on instagram etc.. why? Because people respect you based on how you dress and not the content of your character..

Basic infastructure = zero..

Friends and family will famz you only when they have something to gain. Or if you simply appear to be a "big girl" or "big boy" A poor man has no friends in Nigeria.

To cut long story short. I have returned to my base. A country where I actually have a decent career, a place where you can save your earnings and live a decent life. A place where I feel no pressure to prove myself to anyone or "pepper dem".

At least here, I have made roots: decent friendships (most of them are fellow blacks like me) theres no food in Niaja that isnt here.. my family is here too.. what am I missing? I have learnt that home is where you make it.

People will encourage you to come home to "invest in opportunities" either because they want to gain something from you or they want you to come suffer the hardship there with them... but believe me, once money finishes .. your so called "loved ones" will leave you high and dry. Some will even scam you off the little you have left.

I don’t where your base is but in America things can be tough. I work in the health care field. Doctors can suffer here too. Theyre under a lot of pressure . Going to medical school is very long , tough and very very expensive. A doctor here may still be in finiciancisl trouble , you may not know it because of the accessibility to borrow money from a finiancial institution. The doctor , now has to work insane amount of hours to pay off their debt. All those big houses and big cars come at price . I have lived in two countries before moving the U.S and I can say that people in the U.S tend to spend more time at work , only to live pay check to paycheck . I think one can move back to Nigeria successfully if they set realistic goals and excute it properly. I have seen too many people who left good paying jobs and decent lives back home only to come here work low wage jobs and increase their stress levels.

yemiosinbajo:


That is what I'm trying to explain to her about being rich, but I hope she reads the thread anyway.

I think at the end of the day, people should stay where it’s works for them. Abroad is not going to work for everybody and vice versa.

sweetmelanin:


Chiamanda lives in America my dear
I appreciate the few names you have dropped here but please speak from your own experience and those around you. are you rich? What opportunities has Nigeria offered you. I am open to learn.

Chimamanda is married to my second cousin....true story.

I was just at their family house in the village this past June. So they are always coming in and out

Babyvet:


I think at the end of the day, people should stay where it’s works for them. Abroad is not going to work for everybody and vice versa.

Exactly.

sweetmelanin:


Chiamanda lives in America my dear
I appreciate the few names you have dropped here but please speak from your own experience and those around you. are you rich? What opportunities has Nigeria offered you. I am open to learn.

Okay, so when I have conversations such as these online, I don't like people taking them personal and this is why I don't like talking about myself or using my personal experiences. If it gets heated, talking about yourself will become sentimental and personality attacks will start coming up. To keep it objective, it is better to keep the conversations general rather than making it personal.

Now, let's dissect Chimamanda. She is a fiction writer. It is extremely hard to become rich as a fiction writer in Nigeria. Nigeria does not have a large market for that. Therefore, the best place for Chimamanda as a writer is America. If she stayed in Nigeria, she would definitely be poor. In addition, Chimamanda is married to a medical doctor with specialization in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Maryland. Do you expect her to move with her husband who did residency in the US to start practicing in Nigeria, or you want her to move to Nigeria alone? From whatever angle you look at it, Chimamanda is better suited to remain in America.

Now, having said that, the fact that she is in America does not mean that everything is all glamour as it appears publicly. Chimamanda is a celebrity, and several celebrities suffer in silence whilst pretending that all is well. Have you read her article on how she suffered depression and would wake up to cry every morning?

There are several other names I could mention, but I don't want to join the bandwagon of "I have a friend.." which is why I mentioned popular names that everyone knows.

As I stated earlier, if you are poor, America is the best place for you, but if you are rich, it may be a disadvantage. And here is the reason: America as a country works extremely hard to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor, even though this is far from perfect yet. Therefore, if you are rich, America takes away your money, but if you are poor, America gives you money. Let's look at a few examples:

If you make under a certain amount of money in a year, you will qualify for FAFSA and some other need-based scholarships. If you earn above, you don't. Some schools, especially top schools like Harvard, MIT, will give you full tuition scholarships if you earn around less that $60K a year, but if you earn above, you have to pay. So, if you are rich, you keep spending money, but if you are poor, they give you money. This helps to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor.

So, take a look at a medical doctor, for example. He is a surgeon and earns $500,000 per year. He is rich, right? Do you know how much he pays in taxes from that amount? Do you know how much he owes in student loans? Do you know that because he earns that much, his children do not qualify for any need-based financial aid, so if his children gain admission to Harvard, he has to pay over $70K per year on their tuition. Now, compare him with an elementary school teacher in America. She earns only $40K per year. She is poor, right? Do you know that she has no student loans because she only has an associate's degree from a community college? Do you know that her taxes are very low compared to the doctor? Do you know that all of her kids will get FAFSA and other need-based financial aids if they go to college? Do you know that if any of her kids gets admitted to Harvard, she will not have to pay anything in tuition? Do you see the discrepancy between how the government treats the rich and the poor in other to bridge the gap?

Now, let's go to Nigeria. University of Ibadan is Nigeria's Harvard. If you earn 6 million naira a year in Nigeria and someone else earns 50,000 a year, do you know that you both will still pay the SAME amount if your kids go to UI or any other school in Nigeria? Earning less does not mean you pay less. Do you see why the gap between the rich and the poor keeps getting wider in Nigeria? Nobody cares that you are poor; you pay the same as the rich. So, tell me, which place benefits the rich more? Which place benefits the poor more?

Now, note that I only used the school analogy; I have not even talked about other aspects such as public housing, etc.

Babyvet:


I don’t where your base is but in America things can be tough. I work in the health care field. Doctors can suffer here too. Theyre under a lot of pressure . Going to medical school is very long , tough and very very expensive. A doctor here may still be in finiciancisl trouble , you may not know it because of the accessibility to borrow money from a finiancial institution. The doctor , now has to work insane amount of hours to pay off their debt. All those big houses and big cars come at price . I have lived in two countries before moving the U.S and I can say that people in the U.S tend to spend more time at work , only to live pay check to paycheck . I think one can move back to Nigeria successfully if they set realistic goals and excute it properly. I have seen too many people who left good paying jobs and decent lives back home only to come here work low wage jobs and increase their stress levels.

People only think about what you earn; they don't think about what you spend. The doctor in Nigeria spent only six years to get that certificate. if he went to a federal university, it was almost free for him. For the American doctor, he spent a minimum of 8 years to become a physician, including expensive four-year undergrad degree and a more expensive four years of med school. Then, the expensive USMLE steps exams, and then at least 80 hours of work per week in the hospital during residency. By the time he is done, his age is already up, and then the loans and others. No one talks about the challenges both financial and mental, they just see the amount he earns.

yemiosinbajo:


People only think about what you earn; they don't think about what you spend. The doctor in Nigeria spent only six years to get that certificate. if he went to a federal university, it was almost free for him. For the American doctor, he spent a minimum of 8 years to become a physician, including expensive four-year undergrad degree and a more expensive four years of med school. Then, the expensive USMLE steps exams, and then at least 80 hours of work per week in the hospital during residency. By the time he is done, his age is already up, and then the loans and others. No one talks about the challenges both financial and mental, they just see the amount he earns.

There is also other issues that the doctor has to worry about. If is a he/she is a surgeon then they are also a salesman because they have to sell their surgery and have to work very hard to keep clients for the hospital. He needs to malpractice insurance . Lawsuits are also very big so they may need to shell out money for lawyers. The doctor may make $500,000( that’s for a an attending doctor and / or for someone one living in high cost of living ) but they $200,000 -$300,000 in student loans plus other loans like mortgages , car loans , credit card debt and personal loans.

yemiosinbajo:


Okay, so when I have conversations such as these online, I don't like people taking them personal and this is why I don't like talking about myself or using my personal experiences. If it gets heated, talking about yourself will become sentimental and personality attacks will start coming up. To keep it objective, it is better to keep the conversations general rather than making it personal.

Now, let's dissect Chimamanda. She is a fiction writer. It is extremely hard to become rich as a fiction writer in Nigeria. Nigeria does not have a large market for that. Therefore, the best place for Chimamanda as a writer is America. If she stayed in Nigeria, she would definitely be poor. In addition, Chimamanda is married to a medical doctor with specialization in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Maryland. Do you expect her to move with her husband who did residency in the US to start practicing in Nigeria, or you want her to move to Nigeria alone? From whatever angle you look at it, Chimamanda is better suited to remain in America.

Now, having said that, the fact that she is in America does not mean that everything is all glamour as it appears publicly. Chimamanda is a celebrity, and several celebrities suffer in silence whilst pretending that all is well. Have you read her article on how she suffered depression and would wake up to cry every morning?

There are several other names I could mention, but I don't want to join the bandwagon of "I have a friend.." which is why I mentioned popular names that everyone knows.

As I stated earlier, if you are poor, America is the best place for you, but if you are rich, it may be a disadvantage. And here is the reason: America as a country works extremely hard to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor, even though this is far from perfect yet. Therefore, if you are rich, America takes away your money, but if you are poor, America gives you money. Let's look at a few examples:

If you make under a certain amount of money in a year, you will qualify for FAFSA and some other need-based scholarships. If you earn above, you don't. Some schools, especially top schools like Harvard, MIT, will give you full tuition scholarships if you earn around less that $60K a year, but if you earn above, you have to pay. So, if you are rich, you keep spending money, but if you are poor, they give you money. This helps to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor.

So, take a look at a medical doctor, for example. He is a surgeon and earns $500,000 per year. He is rich, right? Do you know how much he pays in taxes from that amount? Do you know how much he owes in student loans? Do you know that because he earns that much, his children do not qualify for any need-based financial aid, so if his children gain admission to Harvard, he has to pay over $70K per year on their tuition. Now, compare him with an elementary school teacher in America. She earns only $40K per year. She is poor, right? Do you know that she has no student loans because she only has an associate's degree from a community college? Do you know that her taxes are very low compared to the doctor? Do you know that all of her kids will get FAFSA and other need-based financial aids if they go to college? Do you know that if any of her kids gets admitted to Harvard, she will not have to pay anything in tuition? Do you see the discrepancy between how the government treats the rich and the poor in other to bridge the gap?

Now, let's go to Nigeria. University of Ibadan is Nigeria's Harvard. If you earn 6 million naira a year in Nigeria and someone else earns 50,000 a year, do you know that you both will still pay the SAME amount if your kids go to UI or any other school in Nigeria? Earning less does not mean you pay less. Do you see why the gap between the rich and the poor keeps getting wider in Nigeria? Nobody cares that you are poor; you pay the same as the rich. So, tell me, which place benefits the rich more? Which place benefits the poor more?

Now, note that I only used the school analogy; I have not even talked about other aspects such as public housing, etc.

Why do you categorize people into rich or poor? Majority of us are somewhere in the middle. You cannot compare a rich man in Nigeria to a middle class man abroad.. think objectivly please.
Compare a doctor in Nigeria to one abroad. A teacher in Nigeria to one abroad etc.. that way, your argument will be more concise and clear.

Finally, what are you doing in America? When was the last time you experienced home on a first hand basis?

yemiosinbajo:


Okay, so when I have conversations such as these online, I don't like people taking them personal and this is why I don't like talking about myself or using my personal experiences. If it gets heated, talking about yourself will become sentimental and personality attacks will start coming up. To keep it objective, it is better to keep the conversations general rather than making it personal.

Now, let's dissect Chimamanda. She is a fiction writer. It is extremely hard to become rich as a fiction writer in Nigeria. Nigeria does not have a large market for that. Therefore, the best place for Chimamanda as a writer is America. If she stayed in Nigeria, she would definitely be poor. In addition, Chimamanda is married to a medical doctor with specialization in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Maryland. Do you expect her to move with her husband who did residency in the US to start practicing in Nigeria, or you want her to move to Nigeria alone? From whatever angle you look at it, Chimamanda is better suited to remain in America.

Now, having said that, the fact that she is in America does not mean that everything is all glamour as it appears publicly. Chimamanda is a celebrity, and several celebrities suffer in silence whilst pretending that all is well. Have you read her article on how she suffered depression and would wake up to cry every morning?

There are several other names I could mention, but I don't want to join the bandwagon of "I have a friend.." which is why I mentioned popular names that everyone knows.

As I stated earlier, if you are poor, America is the best place for you, but if you are rich, it may be a disadvantage. And here is the reason: America as a country works extremely hard to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor, even though this is far from perfect yet. Therefore, if you are rich, America takes away your money, but if you are poor, America gives you money. Let's look at a few examples:

If you make under a certain amount of money in a year, you will qualify for FAFSA and some other need-based scholarships. If you earn above, you don't. Some schools, especially top schools like Harvard, MIT, will give you full tuition scholarships if you earn around less that $60K a year, but if you earn above, you have to pay. So, if you are rich, you keep spending money, but if you are poor, they give you money. This helps to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor.

So, take a look at a medical doctor, for example. He is a surgeon and earns $500,000 per year. He is rich, right? Do you know how much he pays in taxes from that amount? Do you know how much he owes in student loans? Do you know that because he earns that much, his children do not qualify for any need-based financial aid, so if his children gain admission to Harvard, he has to pay over $70K per year on their tuition. Now, compare him with an elementary school teacher in America. She earns only $40K per year. She is poor, right? Do you know that she has no student loans because she only has an associate's degree from a community college? Do you know that her taxes are very low compared to the doctor? Do you know that all of her kids will get FAFSA and other need-based financial aids if they go to college? Do you know that if any of her kids gets admitted to Harvard, she will not have to pay anything in tuition? Do you see the discrepancy between how the government treats the rich and the poor in other to bridge the gap?

Now, let's go to Nigeria. University of Ibadan is Nigeria's Harvard. If you earn 6 million naira a year in Nigeria and someone else earns 50,000 a year, do you know that you both will still pay the SAME amount if your kids go to UI or any other school in Nigeria? Earning less does not mean you pay less. Do you see why the gap between the rich and the poor keeps getting wider in Nigeria? Nobody cares that you are poor; you pay the same as the rich. So, tell me, which place benefits the rich more? Which place benefits the poor more?

Now, note that I only used the school analogy; I have not even talked about other aspects such as public housing, etc.

In that highlighted paragraph you have imbedded a number of very false statements in there.

First of all, your point about the surgeon earning about $500,000 a year and needing to pay very high in taxes is true but do you know there are some loop-holes in the taxes that he can benefit from like earning properties, keeping receipts of what you buy and pay for...the list goes on...which eventually he wont need to pay all that high taxes.

Student loans, there are some legal legal loop-holes that can be used to pay the bare minimum without needing to pay any interest to pay it off.

Now the part where the teacher attended community college and is now a teacher is false. Most teachers are master's degree holders earning the average of $60,000 a year and above depending on the State.

Even the people that are earning $40,000 a year or below, yes their kids might be able to get more money from FAFSA, but the parents will still have to pay some money out of pocket maybe not a lot. And mind you most of the schools that FAFSA will pay bulk of the tuition payment is with public universities schools and not private universities.

Most of the students that end up paying little to none tuitions payments with schools, such as Harvard and the likes get most of the funding through academic scholarships and not just through FAFSA.

Babyvet:


There is also other issues that the doctor has to worry about. If is a he/she is a surgeon then they are also a salesman because they have to sell their surgery and have to work very hard to keep clients for the hospital. He needs to malpractice insurance . Lawsuits are also very big so they may need to shell out money for lawyers. The doctor may make $500,000( that’s for a an attending doctor and / or for someone one living in high cost of living ) but they $200,000 -$300,000 in student loans plus other loans like mortgages , car loans , credit card debt and personal loans.

Go and see the conditions in which doctors have to work in Nigeria....then you will realise that all you have stated above is child's play

sweetmelanin:


Go and see the conditions in which doctors have to work in Nigeria....then you will realise that all you have stated above is child's play

No it’s not child play, until you have worked in both conditions that you can’t criticize. Don’t allow tv to fool you , not all places look nice in the U.s. especially in urban and rural areas.

Student loan debt crisis

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/09/21/the-student-loan-bubble.html

sweetmelanin:


Go and see the conditions in which doctors have to work in Nigeria....then you will realise that all you have stated above is child's play

lol!..what else were you expecting to come out of a lawless and very corrupt country? Anything and everything goes now.

Babyvet:


No it’s not child play, until you have worked in both conditions that you can’t criticize. Don’t allow tv to fool you , not all places look nice in the U.s. especially in urban and rural areas.

Hmmm, this your exaggeration is very questionable and please no need for the attacks.

The medical field in the US is one of the if not the most heavily scrutinized and monitored due to its very strict licensure regulations.

Nigeria does not have that.

Beautyaddy:


Hmmm, this your exaggeration is very questionable and please no need for the attacks.

The medical field in the US is one of the if not the most heavily scrutinized and monitored due to its very strict licensure regulations.

Nigeria does not have that.

No exgareation, did not say it was bad as Nigeria, but it ain’t at all that glamorous . America and Nigeria are two different countries , in two different continents and really should not be compared.But you and sweet melanin are proving me and Yemi points correct.

Beautyaddy:


In that highlighted paragraph you have imbedded a number of very false statements in there.


First of all, your point about the surgeon earning about $500,000 a year and needing to pay very high in taxes is true but do you know there are some loop-holes in the taxes that he can benefit from like earning properties, keeping receipts of what you buy and pay for...the list goes on...which eventually he wont need to pay all that high taxes.

Student loans, there are some legal legal loop-holes that can be used to pay the bare minimum without needing to pay any interest to pay it off.

Now the part where the teacher attended community college and is now a teacher is false. Most teachers are master's degree holders earning the average of $60,000 a year and above depending on the State.[/quote]

I'm truly sorry that I did not start my statement with "As a hypothetical example," as my English teacher warned me years ago. I often think that the tone makes it evident, but with your response, it clearly doesn't. If you study the tone of my words deeper, you'll realize that what it means is that, "For example, a doctor who earns..." That does not mean that I'm using a real-life example of a doctor who earns that amount when there are a lot of doctors who do not earn that. Yes, there are loopholes, but it depends on how you want to exploit those loopholes, in addition to your access to the opportunities to exploit them. It's not all as straightforward as you have presented them, meaning that not everyone can. There are a lot more issues to it, but let's not derail that line at this time. These things are very subjective and do not work for everyone same way.

My statement on a teacher with an associate's degree is also a hypothetical example including the amount, however, I acknowledge that I never knew that you would have to earn a master's to teach at an elementary. I take that back, and thanks for letting me know.
NB: I just asked someone now and she said the minimum is a BA. Well, you said "most"

Beautyaddy:

Even the people that are earning $40,000 a year or below, yes their kids might be able to get more money from FAFSA, but the parents will still have to pay some money out of pocket maybe not a lot. And mind you most of the schools that FAFSA will pay bulk of the tuition payment is with public universities schools and not private universities.

This is not accurate; it depends on the school and the type of financial aid they get. A lot of community college students receive refunds; that is, their entire cost is covered, and they still get a check in refund. Again it depends on the school; that is, their tuition cost, and types of financial aid. Meanwhile, I wasnt only talking about FAFSA, I'm talking about need-based scholarships.

Beautyaddy:
Most of the students that end up paying little to none tuitions payments with schools, such as Harvard and the likes get most of the funding through academic scholarships and not just through FAFSA.

This is entirely wrong; but I spare you because of your tactical use of "most" putting you on the safe side. Top private institutions have need-based scholarships. This has nothing to do with academic/merit scholarships. At these schools, every single student who gets admitted is academically smart, and many of them already have top GPAs. Therefore, if they would use academic scholarships, every single student will qualify. What these schools, such as Harvard, MIT, etc. do is that, they admit you irrespective of how much you have (need-blind). Once admitted, they will meet 100% of your declared financial need. So, how do you declare financial need? What your family earns. If your family earns above a certain amount, you will not qualify. However, if your family earns above a certain amount, 100% of your financial need will be met. This has nothing to do with academic scholarships; it is a need-based scholarship. So yea, while someone whose parents earn $40,000 will not have to pay ANYTHING in tuition, someone who earns above a certain amount stipulated by the school may have to pay the full tuition.

sweetmelanin:



Why do you categorize people into rich or poor?

Because originally, what made me dabble into this conversation is that I was trying to prove that if you are rich, you are better off living in Nigeria than in the US.

sweetmelanin:
Majority of us are somewhere in the middle.

Back to what I said earlier, just above.

sweetmelanin:
You cannot compare a rich man in Nigeria to a middle class man abroad

What do you mean? This is very subjective? How is it incomparable? What is the example of your average rich man in Nigeria- are you talking about the likes of Dangote or Omotola? And who is your example of an average middle class in the US? Without clarifying all these, you can't just make a subjective statement like this and claim it's a fact?

sweetmelanin:
.. think objectivly please.

I think I should be the one telling you this.

sweetmelanin:
Compare a doctor in Nigeria to one abroad. A teacher in Nigeria to one abroad etc.. that way, your argument will be more concise and clear.

Really? Is that your definition of an objective claim? Does it take the same process to become a doctor or teacher in the US as it is in Nigeria? Same cost of education, same qualification, same time, same cost of living? How do you just make such a ridiculous comparison and call it "concise and clear"?

sweetmelanin:
Finally, what are you doing in America? When was the last time you experienced home on a first hand basis?

Here we go again. It always ends in personal confrontations.

yemiosinbajo:

Because originally, what made me dabble into this conversation is that I was trying to prove that if you are rich, you are better off living in Nigeria than in the US.

Back to what I said earlier, just above.


What do you mean? This is very subjective? How is it incomparable? What is the example of your average rich man in Nigeria- are you talking about the likes of Dangote or Omotola? And who is your example of an average middle class in the US? Without clarifying all these, you can't just make a subjective statement like this and claim it's a fact?

I think I should be the one telling you this.


Really? Is that your definition of an objective claim? Does it take the same process to become a doctor or teacher in the US as it is in Nigeria? Same cost of education, same qualification, same time, same cost of living? How do you just make such a ridiculous comparison and call it "concise and clear"?


Here we go again. It always ends in personal confrontations.

Good points you made, a few months ago, teachers accross the country were complaining about their pay, with sometimes teachers having to buy school supplies for their students.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_teachers%27_strikes_in_the_United_States

Irregardless , student loan debt plaguing this country .With few exceptions , a lot of occupations are requiring minimum of bachelors with some regarding masters degree like social work but thats low paying.

yemiosinbajo:


Okay, so when I have conversations such as these online, I don't like people taking them personal and this is why I don't like talking about myself or using my personal experiences. If it gets heated, talking about yourself will become sentimental and personality attacks will start coming up. To keep it objective, it is better to keep the conversations general rather than making it personal.

Now, let's dissect Chimamanda. She is a fiction writer. It is extremely hard to become rich as a fiction writer in Nigeria. Nigeria does not have a large market for that. Therefore, the best place for Chimamanda as a writer is America. If she stayed in Nigeria, she would definitely be poor. In addition, Chimamanda is married to a medical doctor with specialization in Obstetrics and Gynecology in Maryland. Do you expect her to move with her husband who did residency in the US to start practicing in Nigeria, or you want her to move to Nigeria alone? From whatever angle you look at it, Chimamanda is better suited to remain in America.

Now, having said that, the fact that she is in America does not mean that everything is all glamour as it appears publicly. Chimamanda is a celebrity, and several celebrities suffer in silence whilst pretending that all is well. Have you read her article on how she suffered depression and would wake up to cry every morning?

There are several other names I could mention, but I don't want to join the bandwagon of "I have a friend.." which is why I mentioned popular names that everyone knows.

As I stated earlier, if you are poor, America is the best place for you, but if you are rich, it may be a disadvantage. And here is the reason: America as a country works extremely hard to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor, even though this is far from perfect yet. Therefore, if you are rich, America takes away your money, but if you are poor, America gives you money. Let's look at a few examples:

If you make under a certain amount of money in a year, you will qualify for FAFSA and some other need-based scholarships. If you earn above, you don't. Some schools, especially top schools like Harvard, MIT, will give you full tuition scholarships if you earn around less that $60K a year, but if you earn above, you have to pay. So, if you are rich, you keep spending money, but if you are poor, they give you money. This helps to bridge the gap between the rich and the poor.

So, take a look at a medical doctor, for example. He is a surgeon and earns $500,000 per year. He is rich, right? Do you know how much he pays in taxes from that amount? Do you know how much he owes in student loans? Do you know that because he earns that much, his children do not qualify for any need-based financial aid, so if his children gain admission to Harvard, he has to pay over $70K per year on their tuition. Now, compare him with an elementary school teacher in America. She earns only $40K per year. She is poor, right? Do you know that she has no student loans because she only has an associate's degree from a community college? Do you know that her taxes are very low compared to the doctor? Do you know that all of her kids will get FAFSA and other need-based financial aids if they go to college? Do you know that if any of her kids gets admitted to Harvard, she will not have to pay anything in tuition? Do you see the discrepancy between how the government treats the rich and the poor in other to bridge the gap?

Now, let's go to Nigeria. University of Ibadan is Nigeria's Harvard. If you earn 6 million naira a year in Nigeria and someone else earns 50,000 a year, do you know that you both will still pay the SAME amount if your kids go to UI or any other school in Nigeria? Earning less does not mean you pay less. Do you see why the gap between the rich and the poor keeps getting wider in Nigeria? Nobody cares that you are poor; you pay the same as the rich. So, tell me, which place benefits the rich more? Which place benefits the poor more?

Now, note that I only used the school analogy; I have not even talked about other aspects such as public housing, etc.

In defense of the American system, I must mention that these things you mention are a matter of choice. Going to Harvard is a choice you make. Point being that you can also get an equivalent education at less than 20% the cost of Harvard at other schools. The system caters to everyone. The beautiful thing about America is that everyone finds their level and can get ahead. If you want to drive a car, you can choose between a $200 beater and a $100k Mercedes. Both will basically get you from A to B, one choice more comfortably. Both will arrive at the same destination!

Babyvet:


There is also other issues that the doctor has to worry about. If is a he/she is a surgeon then they are also a salesman because they have to sell their surgery and have to work very hard to keep clients for the hospital. He needs to malpractice insurance . Lawsuits are also very big so they may need to shell out money for lawyers. The doctor may make $500,000( that’s for a an attending doctor and / or for someone one living in high cost of living ) but they $200,000 -$300,000 in student loans plus other loans like mortgages , car loans , credit card debt and personal loans.

Good points. But remember, the system also provides options to relieve doctors of debt. For example, a fresh out of training doc has the opportunity to get loan forgiveness if they practice for some years in a rural area. In addition, because there is an acute shortage, many doctors get a signing bonus that will substantially eliminate a large portion of their debt if they choose to pay it off. However, you need to understand the American financial system. Debt in itself is not a bad thing in America. These loans are at very low interest rates and so it makes financial sense to pay them off over a long period of time while investing your income in higher yielding opportunities. Do not be fooled by Drs complainijg about debt. They have made a choice not to pay it off, and a good financial choice too!

Mancala:


In defense of the American system, I must mention that these things you mention are a matter of choice. Going to Harvard is a choice you make. Point being that you can also get an equivalent education at less than 20% the cost of Harvard at other schools. The system caters to everyone. The beautiful thing about America is that everyone finds their level and can get ahead. If you want to drive a car, you can choose between a $200 beater and a $100k Mercedes. Both will basically get you from A to B, one choice more comfortably. Both will arrive at the same destination!

I don't think there was ever an argument about this.

Mancala:


Good points. But remember, the system also provides options to relieve doctors of debt. For example, a fresh out of training doc has the opportunity to get loan forgiveness if they practice for some years in a rural area. In addition, because there is an acute shortage, many doctors get a signing bonus that will substantially eliminate a large portion of their debt if they choose to pay it off. However, you need to understand the American financial system. Debt in itself is not a bad thing in America. These loans are at very low interest rates and so it makes financial sense to pay them off over a long period of time while investing your income in higher yielding opportunities. Do not be fooled by Drs complainijg about debt. They have made a choice not to pay it off, and a good financial choice too!

I’m just using the doctor as an example. I understand the finincial system very well in this country. The problem with people having debt in this country , some make can never get out of it whether willingly or unwillingly. One can default on their loans but best believe the loan would keep on increasing with interest . People keep mentioning programs like loan forgiveness in this thread , like they’re easily accessible. Below is the link to student loan forgives by the government
https://studentaid.ed.gov/sa/repay-loans/forgiveness-cancellation
Some private institutions companies may offer them depending on the field.

Mancala:


Good points. But remember, the system also provides options to relieve doctors of debt. For example, a fresh out of training doc has the opportunity to get loan forgiveness if they practice for some years in a rural area. In addition, because there is an acute shortage, many doctors get a signing bonus that will substantially eliminate a large portion of their debt if they choose to pay it off. However, you need to understand the American financial system. Debt in itself is not a bad thing in America. These loans are at very low interest rates and so it makes financial sense to pay them off over a long period of time while investing your income in higher yielding opportunities. Do not be fooled by Drs complainijg about debt. They have made a choice not to pay it off, and a good financial choice too!

Leaving the others that you talked about. Let me digress a little on a lighter note. Is there really an acute shortage of doctors in the US or this is just what they want us to believe? Let's leave out what's in the books and focus on the reality: is there currently an acute shortage of doctors? If there was an acute shortage, why wasn't there a Schedule A reservation by Congress like there was for physical therapists and nurses? Too many med schools keep turning down applicants who end up in the Caribbean countries. Several physicians are still struggling to match sef

Mancala:


Good points. But remember, the system also provides options to relieve doctors of debt. For example, a fresh out of training doc has the opportunity to get loan forgiveness if they practice for some years in a rural area. In addition, because there is an acute shortage, many doctors get a signing bonus that will substantially eliminate a large portion of their debt if they choose to pay it off. However, you need to understand the American financial system. Debt in itself is not a bad thing in America. These loans are at very low interest rates and so it makes financial sense to pay them off over a long period of time while investing your income in higher yielding opportunities. Do not be fooled by Drs complainijg about debt. They have made a choice not to pay it off, and a good financial choice too!

Debt is not a bad thing, so is it a good thing? I would say avoid it if you can. If it weren't that serious, there wouldn't be complaints about it by those who are drown in it.

yemiosinbajo:


Leaving the others that you talked about. Let me digress a little on a lighter note. Is there really an acute shortage of doctors in the US or this is just what they want us to believe? Let's leave out what's in the books and focus on the reality: is there currently an acute shortage of doctors? If there was an acute shortage, why wasn't there a Schedule A reservation by Congress like there was for physical therapists and nurses? Too many med schools keep turning down applicants who end up in the Caribbean countries. Several physicians are still struggling to match sef

There is a real shortage becasue of the residency bottleneck. There are not enough residency positions to meet the demand for docs and in addition, the spots are not equally distributed across specialties. For example there are more Family practice positions availabe than Surgery or Anaesthesia. For some reason, they prefer to keep it that way.

yemiosinbajo:


Leaving the others that you talked about. Let me digress a little on a lighter note. Is there really an acute shortage of doctors in the US or this is just what they want us to believe? Let's leave out what's in the books and focus on the reality: is there currently an acute shortage of doctors? If there was an acute shortage, why wasn't there a Schedule A reservation by Congress like there was for physical therapists and nurses? Too many med schools keep turning down applicants who end up in the Caribbean countries. Several physicians are still struggling to match sef

I agree, one has to really research this topic before making such statements. When there was an actual nursing shortage , the government actually made programs to bring nurses from other countries to the U.s. Now the program has been closed but some people keep shouting that there is a nursing shortage but the program has not been reopened. The truth of the matter a lot of people , wants to live in more metropolitan areas compared to rural , which is why there is a shortage of workers in that area.

yemiosinbajo:


Leaving the others that you talked about. Let me digress a little on a lighter note. Is there really an acute shortage of doctors in the US or this is just what they want us to believe? Let's leave out what's in the books and focus on the reality: is there currently an acute shortage of doctors? If there was an acute shortage, why wasn't there a Schedule A reservation by Congress like there was for physical therapists and nurses? Too many med schools keep turning down applicants who end up in the Caribbean countries. Several physicians are still struggling to match sef

lol!...Kind of yes/no at the same time.

Yes, depending on the specialties like surgeons and the likes.

No, because now some States are now allowing Nurse Practitioners to take up most of those specialties like family medicine, Psychiatrics, internal medicine and pediatrics. So the need for doctors in these fields are not necessary.

Babyvet:


I agree, one has to really research this topic before making such statements. When there was an actual nursing shortage , the government actually made programs to bring nurses from other countries to the U.s. Now the program has been closed but some people keep shouting that there is a nursing shortage but the program has not been reopened. The truth of the matter a lot of people , wants to live in more metropolitan areas compared to rural , which is why there is a shortage of workers in that area.

Exactly my point. In the books we hear that there is an acute shortage, but I don't see this in real life. The shortage does not appear really different from the shortage in other professions like computer science. As a matter of fact, Nursing is the only profession (that I know of at the moment) that is ineligible for an H1B, which contradicts the shortage claim. In a country like Nigeria, you hear that a hospital has only one doctor to hundreds of patients, so patients have to queue for several hours before they can see a doctor. That's a proof of shortage in real life without look at the books. In the US, this is not the case. People still have access to their specialists without waiting too long. We don't hear these kinds of complaints in the US. Even the USMLE process for foreign doctors is getting tougher. In the past, there were three USMLE centers in Nigeria, now there is none. Yet, in the papers, there is the official "noise" that there is an acute shortage. That's why sometimes it's important to experience things for oneself than just reading online and jumping to conclusions.