superlightning:


No ANAMBRA person will call this guy to order. If we (ABIA) decide to unleash our own on thread, don't come placing rules and stuff.

Bestview has insulted every Igbo state save his ANAMBRA and ANAMBRA people are looking the other way. He should go to ANAMBRA and rant all he can.

Pazienza, Afam4eva, call this guy to order. This thread is already derailing.

Because if I should start with bestview and co, they would say I have attacked ANAMBRA state.

ANAMBRA PEOPLE ARE BLESSED JUST LIKE OTHER IGBOS. NOTHING SPECIAL

ENUGU CITY IS THE IGBO CAPITAL BY HISTORICAL AND GEOGRAPHICAL CONSIDERATIONS

CENTRAL IGBO IS MAINLY IMO/ABIA

WE ARE ALL TOGETHER IN THE BUILDING OF PAN-IGBO PROGRESS.

insecure people shouldn't test the patience of the rest of us.

pazienza:


Onicha is one of those proto Igbo word that it's meaning has been lost.

Another wildspread Word like Onicha used all over Igbo speaking realm is "Owerre".

1. Owerre-Uratta (Popular Owerri Imo capital)
2. Owelle-Ezukala (Orumba Anambra)
3. Owerre-Olubor (Ika Delta)
4. Umueleke Owerre ( Mbano Imo)
5. Owerrinta (Abia state)
6. Owerre. (Awgu Enugu)
7.Owerre-Obukpa (Nsukka Enugu state)
8. Owerre-Nkwoji (Nkwerre Imo state)
9. Owerre-Ebeiri (Orlu Imo state)
10.Owerre-Aba (Abia state)
11.Ihitte-Owerri (Orlu, Imo state).
12. Owerre-Aja (Obosi Anambra)
13 Owerre Akokwa ( Imo)
14. Iru Owerre (Igbo ukwu Anambra).
15. Owerre Umudioka ( Orlu Imo)
16. Ute-Owerre ( Ika Delta)

ckenneths:
If you won't buid something fantastic, don't buy lands here

This place is Enugu, a newly created estate near the Golf course estates......

Afam4eva:
I've seen a lot of rguments about whether groups like the Ikwerre are Igbo or not and if anyone knows my stand here, they would know that even though i don't buy the whole Ikwerre/Benin BS, i now see Ikwerre as a different group from the Igbo and it's not for any of the reasons that some Ikwerre people give such as different dialect or the fact that they learned Igbo through trade. it is solely because i believe that people are who they say they are. I have interacted with a lot of Ikwerre people and the consensus thati have gathered is that they do not want to be called anything but Ikwerre, definitely not Igbo and they're verbally violent about it too.

The only thing i have noticed about Ikwerres is a soft affinity for Igbos even though they like to hide it. While in NYSC, we were playing a football match among corpers and a fight broke out between two players, an Igbo and Yoruba guy and it seemed like the other Yoruba guys seemed to be supporting their fellow Yoruba guys and a few Ikwerre guys (we had a handful of them in the LGA) took the matter on their head along with some Igbo guys and started fighting the Yoruba guys. At that moment i realize that Ikwerre people think they are Brothers to Igbo people. But not enough to call themselves Igbo. We can be brothers but not of the same ethnic group even thouhg we are related.

To further explain what i mean, i was in Calabar a few days ago for a wedding and the MC of event was greeted people of different tribes. he greeted the Efiks, Ibibios, Annangs, Oron and different people even though these people are of the same stock. These groups know they are related but don't see themselves as the same tribe. It is insulting for Ibibios to refer to Annangs as Ibibio and vice versa just like Ikwerres think it's insulting to refer to them as Igbos. Mind you, these Igboid groups really don't mind a union with Igbos but as long as they are not lumped in to the Igbo umbrella. Infact i confirmed this when an Ukwuani guy on this forum once said that all the "Bia" speaking groups should come together and form something like a union. This made me think that they were more against the Igbo tag which they feel does not apply to them than having anything to do with Igbos.

So, i think some of us need to start vieving this Igbo denial in a different way and similar to how tribes are viewed in the Niger Delta area where almost every village is a tribe. Have you asked yourself why all the Igboid groups in Rivers state are not grouped under a single umbrella? Why do we have Ikwerre, Etche, Ndoni and co as seperate ethnic groups. If they can't do that, how do you expect them to now come under the Igbo umbrella. Let's think about this with a clear head.

[quote author=ChinenyeN post=72535157]

You are quoting me and saying 'intellectual laziness'. You must not have been on NL during the time we were actively discussing etymology of Igbo terms, so allow me to help enlighten you.

'Intellectual laziness' is seeing two words, written in Latin script and look similar, not even minding the pronunciations, and without substantiation stating "coincidence? I think not".

'Intellectual laziness' is making the below statement:

Out of the myriad of cultural features and discrepancies that exist within and between the various Igbo groups and your Hebrews, you pick out a handful (of seemingly arbitrary similarities) and ask for an explanation. 'Intellectual laziness' is not realizing that this Jewish/Hebrew nonsense has been around long enough for the academia to actually get involved, and 'til today, the academia been unable to find substantiation for this Jewish/Hebrew nonsense. Visit credible, peer-reviewed journal sites like JStor and University of Colombia's Database.

'Intellectual laziness' is knowing that a complete and utter void of oral tradition exists with respect to this Jewish/Hebrew nonsense, yet deciding to not acknowledge actual oral traditions of the people involved, just to spout speculative nonsense.

'Intellectual laziness' is the fact that some of the oldest artifacts that were archeologically excavated in the region, and incidentally (falsely, but that is a discussion for another time) attributed to Nri, provide zero archeological support for... guess... Your Hebrew/Jewish nonsense.

In short, 'intellectual laziness' is claiming that a link exists (without evidence), then claiming that we need to investigate (because we need to be sure), then claiming that 'those who know, know' (again, without evidence), then asking for an explanation (further proving that you have no evidence).

'Intellectual laziness' is everything you just exhibited in this thread.

I've seen a lot of rguments about whether groups like the Ikwerre are Igbo or not and if anyone knows my stand here, they would know that even though i don't buy the whokole Ikwerre/Benin BS, i now see Ikwerre as a different group from the Igbo and it's not for any of the reasons that some Ikwerre people give such as different dialect or the fact that they learned Igbo through trade. it is solely because i believe that people are who they say they are. I have interacted with a lot of Ikwerre people and the consensus thati have gathered is that they do not want to be called anything but Ikwerre, definitely not Igbo and they're verbally violent about it too

The only thing i have noticed about Ikwerres is a soft affinity for Igbos even though they like to hide it. While in NYSC, we were playing a football match among corpers and a fight broke out between two players, an Igbo and Yoruba guy and it seemed like the other Yoruba guys seemed to be supporting their fellow Yoruba guys and a few Ikwerre guys (we had a handful of them in the LGA) took the matter on their head along with some Igbo guys and started fighting the Yoruba guys. At that moment i realize that Ikwerre people think they are Brothers to Igbo people. But not enough to call themselves Igbo. We can be brothers but not of the same ethnic group even thouhg we are related.

To further explain what i mean, i was in Calabar a few days ago for a wedding and the MC of event was greeted people of different tribes. he greeted the Efiks, Ibibios, Annangs, Oron and different people even though these people are of the same stock. These groups know they are related but don't see themselves as the same tribe. It is insulting for Ibibios to refer to Annangs as Ibibio and vice versa just like Ikwerres think it's insulting to refer to them as Igbos. Mind you, these Igboid groups really don't mind a union with Igbos but as long as they are not lumped in to the Igbo umbrella. Infact i confirmed this when an Ukwuani guy on this forum once said that all the "Bia" speaking groups should come together and form something like a union. This made me think that they were more against the Igbo tag which they feel does not apply to them than having anything to do with Igbos.

So, i think some of us need to start vieving this Igbo denial in a different way and similar to how tribes are viewed in the Niger Delta area where almost every village is a tribe. Have you asked yourself why all the Igboid groups in Rivers state are not grouped under a single umbrella? Why do we have Ikwerre, Etche, Ndoni and co as seperate ethnic groups. If they can't do that, how do you expect them to now come under the Igbo umbrella. Let's think about this with a clear head.[

ezeagu:


Sure, aziza has absolutely nothing to do with the word zaa, sweep, in Igbo. It rather fell from the bible.

ChinenyeN:
Wait, wait... hammerFC, you expect yourself to be taken seriously with what you just wrote? Well, at least we are finally getting somewhere though. Instead of completely ignoring oral tradition, you want to take it an extra step and claim that "we Igbo" have oral tradition affirming a migration from Egypt. Finally. Now, point us in the direction of those oral traditions, so that we all can be enlightened.

This is your first concrete step. Instead of walking around the subject with "Coincidence? I think not.", you actually want to mention something empirical and concrete. Ngwanu, share with us the oral traditions which affirm a migration from Egypt and recognize the lost tribe of Israel. You must have seen it written out or detailed out somewhere, or even shared with you verbally. A journal during the colonial administration maybe? An intelligence report during the first years of anchoring, perhaps? A pamphlet, possibly written between the 1910s and 1950s? An uncle or aunt or elder of any number of villages, perhaps. You had to have gotten something tangible for you to make such a bold claim. Please, share with us what that was.

You see, not just myself, but many of us here on NL have actually taken great interest in the oral traditions of many communities in the ethno-linguistic region, both Igbo-speaking and non-Igbo-speaking alike. Many of us are sons and daughters of the soil, well-versed in the oral traditions of our specific communities and also knowledgeable of the traditions of our neighbors to varying degrees. I have to say, 'til this date, with the wealth of sons and daughters of the soil that exist in the region, no one has yet been able to manifest definitive, empirical oral traditions from their community that affirm any Israel connections.

You would think, that considering how long this Jewish/Hebrew shinama has been around, and considering how much Igbo people are in love with the idea of being loved by Israel, that at least one Israel-sympathizing son or daughter of the soil would have manifested oral tradition from his or her local community that affirms something; anything. Yet, all you Israel-loving fools are still here saying "Coincidence? I think not". The only oral tradition you carry is... *silence* ... yes, 'til this date, you all have yet to actually tell us anything concrete.

But, rejoice, Oha Igbo Gburu Gburu! Today marks a momentous day in Igbo history. One of our Israel-loving members will finally share something concrete with us.

Iyaa, hammerFC, zni we. We are waiting. Share with us these corroborating oral traditions. Trust me, many of us here would very much like to know, maybe even more than most Igbo on this forum.

Now mind you, you went out of your way to make a very audacious claim. You claim to have actual oral tradition; something that we all can hear, read, research, verify. You've graduated from speculator to claimant. Do you know what this means?

It means that failure on your part to produce these empirically, verifiable details graduates you from intellectual laziness to intellectual fraudulence. A liar, in plain and simple terms. So, I will help you out, by giving you the opportunity to take back anything you stated, without any recourse.

I give my word to not ridicule you, persecute you or otherwise dismiss you entirely.

If you know you are lying and recant now, we can move on amicably. If you choose to not recant, then I have little choice but to ask for the information you have, so that I may research and verify myself, because I would very much like to. You are claiming you have the capacity to vindicate your fellow Israel-sympathizers. With zero judgement, I will accept the oral tradition you have to offer, the community/communities from whence the tradition can be traced, so that I may embark on my own journey of enlightenment.

Obi1kenobi:


This is like an argument I have with Christians. As an agnostic, they tell me to prove that God doesn't exist, when the onus is on them to prove that god(s) exist. I'm not the one making definitive claims about the history of Igbos. Pre-colonial Igbo society was not an advanced one and our history, dating back thousands of years, is very obscure. This is because we were largely illiterate so couldn't pass on history to our progeny with literature (mind you, Jews have been literate for about 4,000 years). You are the one making a definitive assertion that Igbos are Jews and the onus is on you to prove it, not on me to disprove your fantasies. It's like telling you to come and disprove that there are fairies and unicorns in my garden.

hammerFC:
We are taliking Oral tradition, he is still looking for journals.

Guy, i will come back to u wen am less busy.

ChinenyeN:


As the Americans say, chop chop hammerFC. Dump it all here so that we may know which communities and which oral traditions all of us sons and daughters of the soil have so woefully missed, with our collective knowledge of the oral traditions of the various communities in the Lower Niger.

ChinenyeN:


As the Americans say, chop chop hammerFC. Dump it all here so that we may know which communities and which oral traditions all of us sons and daughters of the soil have so woefully missed, with our collective knowledge of the oral traditions of the various communities in the Lower Niger.

Obi1kenobi:


Neither did "Igbos" as a collective identity exist before the colonialists either. Tens of millions of Igbos across today's SE, SS and lower reaches of the Middle Belt adopted a unified Igbo consciousness that never existed because of those colonialists. But I guess you will also say you're not Igbo, abi? You're raising a lot of non-sequiturs and poor analogies with what is under dispute and ranting rather incoherently. Once again:
1) we support the Nigerian national team because they represent us. They come from our communities. We celebrate their success on the international stage and mourn their failures. As it is so in every country in the world who support their people. If we don't support them, who would we support? Germany?
2) I don't know what any of these have to do with the simple fact that there is zero evidence Igbos are Jews and we should be proud and secure enough in our own identity rather than claiming an alien culture.

pazienza:
Afam4eva



They don't mind being attached to Bini, though. Elechi Amadi started the Bini theory and many other Ikwerre educated persons are following the line too.
Celestine Omehia in an Ogbako Ikwerre convention in USA in 2015 reteirated Ikwerre Bini origin before Ogbakor Ikwerre, and received a warm applause from Ikwerre audience.



This is a too isolated case to be generalized, either way, we had already stated the propensity of Ikwerre people to identify with Igbo groups, once outside Rivers state. They don't do that because they consider us brothers or anything like that, they do such because they know that Igwebuike and that Igbos usually have the numbers outside East, hence they stand a chance benefiting from attaching to Ndiigbo in far away lands, but quickly remember their Bini ancestry, once back to Rivers state. It's part of the chameleonic treachery we have come to know them by,don't be deceived.




You got it all messed up. Oron, Efik, Eket, Ibibio, Annang, are like Ikwerre, Etche, Ngwa, Asa, Ndoki, Izzi, Ezza, Ikwo, Nkanu,, etc.
While IGBO groups managed to unite under one name called Igbo, all those Cross River and Akwa Ibom groups failed to unite under one name.
Ibibio telling Efik, Annang, Oro, Obolo, Eket, etc to unite under the Ibibio name, will be comparable to Ngwa( which is the largest IGBO group) telling the rest of us to unite under the name Ngwa.
Igbo tag belonged to no Igbo group,its a union of Groups that speak Igbo dialects which form a continuum as you move from Igbanke to Isobo.
Ukwuani people telling us to drop the Igbo tag simply because their Edoid neighbors had told them that "Igbon" means slave, as one of them once told me, or for whatever other reasons will not work. If they are not ready to embrace the Igbo tag the rest of us had embraced, then they should go and stay where the sun don't shine.
Your attempt to excuse their treachery, arrogance and sanctimonious attitude, will never fly.
Touch an Ukwuani person, and he starts telling you why they are not Igbos because Igbos are greedy,money conscious, ritualists, secessionists, etc, while Ukwuani are saints, when you listen to them speak, you hear the voice of their Edoid neighbors in them, they had accepted negative and unsubstantiated stories about Ndiigbo their Edoid neighbors parrot about and now they are trying so hard to avoid being referred as Igbos.
They are not just uncomfortable with the Igbo tag,these people habour a degree of resentment towards Ndiigbo, this is necessary for them, since they have to put on an Igbophobic Show for their Edoid neighbors, to prove to them they are truly not Igbos.



Nope. I think you are the one who need to review your understanding of the issue at hand. We have got them and their situation figured out to a T. Some of us had dedicated years of intense study on this matter.

Why we have them all existing as separate ethnic groups? isn't it obvious?
They rejected a unifying tag for all Igbo speaking groups, called IGBO. They had proven incapable of rising beyond their parochial and clannish mentality to unite Under the Igbo tag, while then are you surprised that they had all also failed to unite to form a single entity amongst themselves. Isn't the question a self solving one?
We are looking at this with clear head, and if you do, you will arrive at the same verdict as we all did.

hammerFC:
Every question pose towards me, I have supported with research.

I find it strange that Nwafor Igbo is asking about the Oral tradion, wen u are very familiar with Obu Gad and Umueri oral tradition.

An area that represent the origin of present day Igbo.

Banmeallday:


Where is the evidence that you are even a Nigerian I ask you again? Except for the mindset and behavior that is associated with Nigger people which the name Nigeria implies, there is nothing else....sad for you as it may seem

So if you “mourn and celebrate” the failed Super Eagles then it is a cultural thing like you denied earlier no?

As it is in every proper country, they are not celebrating or endorsing rogues to lead them, and as in the UK or Canada, call for referendum was not referred to from opposition as call for war. As it is in every proper country, the people are indeed proud of their national airlines and hospitals, highways and universities, and celebrate their homogeneous foundations, unlike the Nigger Area that only celebrates for parties and jokes.....

Igbo have for a long time knew who they have been, as do Fulani, as do Yoruba, ditto the reason of so much problems. Yet none of them have any evidence of being Nigerian before a harlot came up with “Nigger Area”.

So as you are celebrating a fake identity, fake country, fake soccer team, and think the world does not know, you should try to see how you can benefit your people and create progress instead of talking what you dont know, If not then sorry for you.

Food for thought #4

Obi1kenobi:
There are people worth having a cogent, coherent debate with. Hammerfc is one of those guys without much self-awareness to know when he's talking utter rubbish. Those without self-awareness can't offer self-critique. You need self-awareness to recognize flaws in your argument and he has none. So "debating" with him is futile. Like playing chess with a pigeon: knocks over the pieces, shiits all over the board and struts around like a victor.

superlightning:


[s]No ANAMBRA person will call this guy to order. If we (ABIA) decide to unleash our own on thread, don't come placing rules and stuff.

Bestview has insulted every Igbo state save his ANAMBRA and ANAMBRA people are looking the other way. He should go to ANAMBRA and rant all he can.

Pazienza, Afam4eva, call this guy to order. This thread is already derailing.

Because if I should start with bestview and co, they would say I have attacked ANAMBRA state.

ANAMBRA PEOPLE ARE BLESSED JUST LIKE OTHER IGBOS. NOTHING SPECIAL

ENUGU CITY IS THE IGBO CAPITAL BY HISTORICAL AND GEOGRAPHICAL CONSIDERATIONS

CENTRAL IGBO IS MAINLY IMO/ABIA

WE ARE ALL TOGETHER IN THE BUILDING OF PAN-IGBO PROGRESS.

insecure people shouldn't test the patience of the rest of us. [/s]

ChinenyeN:


First of all, I'm nwa afo Ngwa. Let's be on the same page about that.

Secondly, yes, I do recall hearing of the 20th century reauthorization of Obu Uga to Obu Gad. Funny enough, it took almost a century after European contact before the Eri lineage changed Obu Uga to Obu Gad. It is interesting that they never once mentioned anything Israeli or Hebrew related to the Europeans. Hm. Perhaps this is the thing that requires research. As in, why did they not tell the Eurpeans, if indeed they always knew the truth? Even after converting to Christianity, not a single thing jogged their memory. It took 100 years, and the victimization of a Civil War for the Eri lineage suddenly remember that they are a lost tribe of Israel? Interesting. I appreciate the insight. I might stow it away for future and further investigation. Either the Eri lied at the beginning or they lied at the end... This can really call into question any number of the Eri lineage's other claims. Wow. This is groundbreaking, actually. Thank you.

Thirdly, and in lieu of the recent revelations regarding the Eri lineage in this thread, any purported oral tradition that insists on peddling a narrative of Eri being the origin of "ndị Igbo" is automatically suspended until satisfactory and independent verification.

It took 100 years, and the victimization of a Civil War for the Eri lineage suddenly remember that they are a lost tribe of Israel?

NaijirianKing:
We spend too much time on this type of issue. Keep in mind, Igbo is a state of mind; a supreme sense of individualism and confidence to succeed. Igbo is also a language; spoken by over 45 million world wide. Igbo are also a people; they come from many states (Rivers, Cross Rivers, parts of Benue, Anambra, Abia, Imo, Delta, Ebonyi, parts of Akwa Ibom, and even parts of Edo).

Some groups who claim ancestry from other parts of Nigeria may actually be correct. They may speak Igbo, look Igbo, and have Igbo culture, but their ancestors may have come from a far away place thousands of years ago.

Some Igbo speaking groups did in fact come from other parts of Nigeria thousands of years ago, but settled close to Igbo land and adopted Igbo customs. So they are "Igbo" in culture, but have historical ties to another place, similar to Fulani who migrated from Guinea, but now live in Kano and speak Hausa. They are not "Hausa" per se, but they've taken a lot from the culture and relate to Hausa well, so much so that they coined the term "Hausa-Fulani." This is the same as a "Delta-Igbo." Some Delta Igbo are simply Igbo from other areas who migrated there, some are descendants of settlers who came from distant places many many generations ago, but now share Igbo culture.

ChinenyeN:


Ọchị lei! Lol. Quite graphic. I definitely get your point. Believe me, I'm tempted to be outright dismissive (as I typically am), but I got intrigued as to what evidence he might provide, because this is the first time I'm hearing someone from his camp ever claim to hold local oral tradition as corroboration. It is an opportunity to vindicate his camp. I wanted to see if he would take it.

hammerFC:
The hexagram already appeared on the historical flag of nigeria (british colony and protectorate). Both coins date from that time, since Nigeria got independent in 1960.


So, i think the question should be why the hexagram was associated with Nigeria during the epoch before 1960. Extensive information regarding this question can be found at http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ng-gb.html.



According to that page, it may be due to jewish influence transmitted by the ethnic group of Igbo (Ibo), and/or it's a "traditional Ibo/Igbo symbol". To be honest, i can't judge if this explanation is accurate...