StormInc:
I need a Catholic to tell me where and when this happened, who recorded it or where did the church get it from.

Quoted from the Roman Catholic Missal - These events are said to have been experienced by the "Virgin Mary"









I would really appreciate if any Catholic can explain where these came from.

ok, I am a Catholic and I'll be happy to answer your questions about the Catholic faith. Sorry I haven't been on NL for sometime now and it seems my fellow Catholics haven't been around either.

First I have to ask you where you got those quotes from because those are not from the Catholic missal, I know because I do own a missal, it is not even from a recognisable church document so please where did you get them from.

Even though I can't place the quotes, the titles are referring to catholic doctrines which I believe, if you need the historical context of those doctrines (not some quotes that can't be placed) I'll happily provide just ask though I imagine I will be slow since I am pretty busy.

Ubenedictus:
ok, I am a Catholic and I'll be happy to answer your questions about the Catholic faith. Sorry I haven't been on NL for sometime now and it seems my fellow Catholics haven't been around either.

First I have to ask you where you got those quotes from because those are not from the Catholic missal, I know because I do own a missal, it is not even from a recognisable church document so please where did you get them from.

Even though I can't place the quotes, the titles are referring to catholic doctrines which I believe, if you need the historical context of those doctrines (not some quotes that can't be placed) I'll happily provide just ask though I imagine I will be slow since I am pretty busy.

I tireooo.I wonder where he got those quotations from

Anas09:

You mean in Catholic Church, members are not allowed to ask questions? because in Winners Chapel we are allowed to ask questions, so speak for where you belong. Our Bible is open, there's nothing we do without scriptural backup.

where is the scriptural back up for Christian tithing?

where is the scriptural backup for tithing in money?

where is the scriptural back up for monthly or weekly tithing?

Ubenedictus:
ok, I am a Catholic and I'll be happy to answer your questions about the Catholic faith. Sorry I haven't been on NL for sometime now and it seems my fellow Catholics haven't been around either.

First I have to ask you where you got those quotes from because those are not from the Catholic missal, I know because I do own a missal, it is not even from a recognisable church document so please where did you get them from.

Even though I can't place the quotes, the titles are referring to catholic doctrines which I believe, if you need the historical context of those doctrines (not some quotes that can't be placed) I'll happily provide just ask though I imagine I will be slow since I am pretty busy.

Alright visit >>
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/mystery.php?id=3

That's the source, you can check out the other mysteries too.

I need the historical context please

PaChukwudi44:


I tireooo.I wonder where he got those quotations from

Lol. Do you really think I forged something like that. I'm aware not all Catholics have intense knowledge of the Catholic Church so I am not surprised. I just posted the source, you can check it out
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/mystery.php?id=3

PaChukwudi44:


where is the scriptural back up for Christian tithing?

where is the scriptural backup for tithing in money?

where is the scriptural back up for monthly or weekly tithing?

Catholics with their lack of Scriptural Understanding.

What is the relationship between Gen 14:18-20 with Heb. 7, 8, and 9? If you can connect the dots then you'd ve your answers.

First, who is Christ to u? To me He is the Eternal High Priest. To whom i owe all allegiance.

Jesus appeared to Abraham in Gen 14:18-20 as Melchizedech the Eternal High Priest. and took Tithe from Abraham, long before the Law was given to Moses which established Tithing.

Speaking abt Jesus here in Prophecy, we are told that Jesus is that Melchizedek.

The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
Psalm:110:4

The Temporal high Priest who served the temporal covenant took tithes of the People, but the eternal High Priest had already done it to show that Tithing is an eternal ordinance not bound by the law.

Jesus came in the Flesh, and after his Glorification, He assumed the position for ever, so whatever was done Temporarily is now done permanently. Tithe is for Christ not man.

PaChukwudi44:


where is the scriptural back up for Christian tithing?

where is the scriptural backup for tithing in money?

where is the scriptural back up for monthly or weekly tithing?

Hey bros easy there don’t come here forming as tho catholic don’t pay tithe ...... Catholic pay tithe too I can prove that to you if you want me to(from your post I am very sure yall dont have the slightest reason why you do)

Also you guys pay “harvest levy” either your working or not, ask yourself if that is in the bible (which is either announced on the pulpit or published in the bulletin with names and amount paid) also during Harvest you all know why mass close very late cos of the numberous launching going on and how they form different categories of same ppl to come launch money they call
-Chelsea fans come for support your team
-All Liverpool fans
-All personals born in Jan to dec.
- All person in university, primary or secondary school
-All person earming salary or have their own business
-Persons from IMO state
-Persons from Enugu state
-Mr Okorocha of Okorocha pharmaceuticals come out and launch (imagine announcing that on the pulpit so the dude can’t reject the invitation out of shame or pride not minding of the dude has money or just struggling to stay afloat)

And the list goes on and on and no

Let me not even go into how we use to visit numerous politicians, chief, kings, wealthy ppl submitting letters of invitations to come support “our harvest”


Also let’s not go into the auctioning of stuffs brought to Church to thank God what you ppl call bazaar.



And at the end of the day majority of the food cooked for the so called harvest will be sold the little remaining will be shared to whoever it could get to.





Yall know I know these stuffs......





So Oga sir b4 you talk about tithe and start quoting Daddy freeze check where you standing very well.

DAramis:
The right question I have for you is this.

Would you actually believe, if a catholic should explain some of this mysteries or you expect to hear some lies that will help to enforce your already predetermined mindset?(An assumption of mine sha).

What matters is your perception bro. Where others see 9 another person will see P even though they are looking at the same written stuff.

this is another issue, most times these questions about are just bait for close minded argument with everyone talking past the other.

I have seen such before and frankly I hope it is not one of such predetermined mindset questions.

StormInc:


What is your point? Are you a Catholic? or are you disapproving the quotations?

they are not from a catholic missal simple, highest it should be somebody's private revelation or meditations

StormInc:


This is not a mystery perception thing, it is a direct claim from the Roman Catholic Church. Those write ups depict first hand experience of Mary herself. None of it is found anywhere in the Bible yet it is a belief of the largest denomination in Christianity. Whether it is true or not, my question is where was it gotten from.

you should know the site you got it from because that isn't from any church document.

Ubenedictus:
you should know the site you got it from because that isn't from any church document.

Check the thread I posted the source

Ubenedictus:
they are not from a catholic missal simple, highest it should be somebody's private revelation or meditations

You are saying it is not from a catholic missal abi?

StormInc:


You are saying it is not from a catholic missal abi?

yes dear, I am clearly saying it is not from a catholic missal simple.

StormInc:


Check the thread I posted the source

I have checked it and the source you posted is not a catholic missal, at best it seems like the private meditations of someone which was pasted on that site

StormInc:


Lol. Are you for real. Can you walk into a Mosque and ask them how do they know that Muhammad spilt the moon. You will get your head off your neck. As far as I know, in Christianity, believers are not allowed to question everything. They are just to have faith and believe, that is nonsense to me

the Catholic Church is not a mosque, it is very easy to get to and find a priest, tell him you have certain questions about Catholicism and he will be glad to sit down with you and discuss them point by point.

We don't kill people for asking questions, infact catholic priests have office hours for exactly that reason so they are easily reachable.

In Catholicism you are allowed to question everything, you can begin from the ground and work it up it is called "faith seeking understanding ", that is why there is theology to explain what we believe.

PaChukwudi44:


I tireooo.I wonder where he got those quotations from

lol,

He just provided the site, he thinks every catholic site is called a "missal ".

StormInc:


Lol. Are you for real. Can you walk into a Mosque and ask them how do they know that Muhammad spilt the moon. You will get your head off your neck. As far as I know, in Christianity, believers are not allowed to question everything. They are just to have faith and believe, that is nonsense to me

the Catholic Church is not a mosque, it is very easy to get to and find a priest, tell him you have certain questions about Catholicism and he will be glad to sit down with you and discuss them point by point.

We don't kill people for asking questions, infact catholic priests have office hours for exactly that reason so they are easily reachable.

In Catholicism you are allowed to question everything, you can begin from the ground and work it up it is called "faith seeking understanding ", that is why there is theology to explain what we believe.

Ubenedictus:
this is another issue, most times these questions about are just bait for close minded argument with everyone talking past the other.

I have seen such before and frankly I hope it is not one of such predetermined mindset questions.

That is the reason but that notwithstanding, if you can enlighten him on his questions, please do.

Kingdante:


Bros watch how they will avoid this topic like a plague, even the so called priest wouldn’t even touch it with a long stick..... one of the major issues is that they don’t read the bible, any catholic that takes his or her time to studying the bible is on its way out of the Catholic Church......

I can give a list of over 20 practises and/or dogma they that aren’t in the bible or goes against biblical principles......and sincerely I don’t blame them the deception is crazy!!! It’s the so called leaders of the Catholic Church (pope, cardinal etc) that is to be blame for the evil.

funny enough Catholics have been on the topic, catholic do read the Bible and they have a plan that finishes the Bible every 3 years. There have equally been protestants who after studying the same bible end up in the Catholic Church many are even pastors. This manner of speaking you adopted is largely disparaging, I'm such you won't be happy if other people adopted the same tone when discussing with you.

It is also instructive to note that the Catholic Church does not use the Bible alone, we are the church who put together the Bible, we were already existing before the Bible, having people who were taught directly and ordained directly by the apostles. So we do not only hold to their writing word we also hold to their spoken word which has always been believed and taught by the church. That is why even the Bible says to hold on to the word whether writing or spoken that has come from the apostles and it also says to know who your teachers are.

For that reason there are many things that are not in the Bible in fact the word bible can't be found in the Bible, nor is the word trinity, hypostatic union but they are either implied there or at least not contradicted in the Bible. What I am confident of though is that the idea of denomination is expressly condemned in the Bible.

Kingdante:



True, very true...... and another point is 80% of catholic were born into it, it wasn’t a thing they choose by themselves(samething implies to our Muslim brothers)


One of the major issues with religion is you are not allowed to think outside the box, cos of you do, you start asking questions and even if you want to ask questions they tell you to go see the leader or whoever runs the show privately and ask the question..... why don’t I ask questions for the whole cogregation to hear and maybe if my question is thought provoking enough it might wake up some of my brothers from their slumber?

the fact that many Catholics are born into Catholicism means that the early missionaries have done a great job and Catholics are very much alive in transmitting their faith to the next generation which is a good thing.

Secondly the Catholic Churches I frequented last year at Easter had lost of adult baptism, one was exclusively adults that other had over 20 adults baptising as Catholics.

funny enough Catholics are encouraged to ask questions usually parishes organises several retreat every year with public asking of questions, again it is faith seeking understanding.

DAramis:


That is the reason but that notwithstanding, if you can enlighten him on his qhuestions, please do.

I certainly will, I had already typed the response on my phone but I lost the post, I'll do it again.

StormInc:


Alright visit >>
https://www.catholic.org/prayers/mystery.php?id=3

That's the source, you can check out the other mysteries too.

I need the historical context please

the quote is probably from someone's private meditations it is not from church documents, if you wish to know what that quote come from then you have to find the owner of the meditations. The titles aka the mysteries are catholic doctrines and I will gladly explain those.

The first mystery is the resurrection of Jesus found in all the gospels and in the writings of the early Christians.

Second mystery is the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven found in the Bible and in the writings of early Christians.

Third the descent of the Holy Spirit found in acts 2 and in the writings of early Christians.

Fourth mystery is the assumption of Mary meaning that after Mary's time was completed was taken by Jesus Christ into heaven, in fulfilment of the enmity and victory prophesied in gen 3:15, this is not explicitly taught in the Bible but is found in the writings of early Christians and their liturgy.

Fifth is the coronation based on scripture that promised a crown for the Saints and upon the fact that Mary of mother of the davidic king and thus queen mother, it is thus based implicitly on scripture and is found in the writings of early Christians.

Ubenedictus:
funny enough Catholics have been on the topic, catholic do read the Bible and they have a plan that finishes the Bible every 3 years. There have equally been protestants who after studying the same bible end up in the Catholic Church many are even pastors. This manner of speaking you adopted is largely disparaging, I'm such you won't be happy if other people adopted the same tone when discussing with you.

It is also instructive to note that the Catholic Church does not use the Bible alone, we are the church who put together the Bible, we were already existing before the Bible, having people who were taught directly and ordained directly by the apostles. So we do not only hold to their writing word we also hold to their spoken word which has always been believed and taught by the church. That is why even the Bible says to hold on to the word whether writing or spoken that has come from the apostles and it also says to know who your teachers are.

For that reason there are many things that are not in the Bible in fact the word bible can't be found in the Bible, nor is the word trinity, hypostatic union but they are either implied there or at least not contradicted in the Bible. What I am confident of though is that the idea of denomination is expressly condemned in the Bible.

I have been there before and I can clearly tell you that 80% catholics either don’t own a bible or personally don’t study the bible...... why should they do that anyway when the bulletin is there for Sunday and almost every other society (except the Catholic charismatic renewal) in the church placed their focus on Mary and/or have a Manuel or pamphlet of selected prayers and order of worship...anyway that aside.


Technically speaking it wasn’t the Catholic church that coupled or put the bible together, it was emperor Constantine I (who happen to be a pagan and well celebrated in the occultic world) he even baptised at the time and also mind you that meeting had bishop and delegate from Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church,oriental orthodoxy, Assyrian church of the East etc in attendance.


Also it’s Important to know his reason for putting the bible together and unbanning Christianity.
It was simply to gain political support among Christian bishop and for the unification of the Roman Empire which he did by unifying Christianity and pagan worship, that is clearly seen in the tradition, doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church today...... I can give you a list of them and how it connect to pagan worship of you want me to.


It’s easy to think that the apostles taught directly in the Catholic Church but you seems to forget that for the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire and Christians terribly persecuted..... we were often told then in church that apostle Paul is the first pope, till date I am still searching for biblical, historical or archeological evidence to support that claim.


Also you said something about word of mouth teachings, let me state here one of the reason that council of Nicaea happened was that at a point in time a lot of teaching and letters were in circulation and most were not verifiable, traceable nor in line with the doctrine of the bible, thus it became confusing for Christian which teaching to follow and which is fake.....thus putting the bible together was more like verifying some and disapproving some letter and teaching in circulation. now if you are saying some of your doctrine, dogma or teaching not found in the bible was taught via word of mouth how can we verify that? especially when it not only goes against biblical doctrine but it is also out rightly condemned in the bible.



Mind you I was a catholic and I almost became a priest until I started studying the bible...... I am not trying to insult or fight over this I am just trying to wake up my fellow brother and sisters who might still be sleeping.


Be sincere to yourself my brother the disciples in the bible from what we’ve read and understood about them, do they fit into present day catholic or present day petecostant..... I leave that for my opponent to answer.




A dude here @pachukuwma made a post blasting tithe payers he just exposed his ignorance cos he clearly don’t know that the catholic pay tithe too.

Ubenedictus:
the fact that many Catholics are born into Catholicism means that the early missionaries have done a great job and Catholics are very much alive in transmitting their faith to the next generation which is a good thing.

Secondly the Catholic Churches I frequented last year at Easter had lost of adult baptism, one was exclusively adults that other had over 20 adults baptising as Catholics.

funny enough Catholics are encouraged to ask questions usually parishes organises several retreat every year with public asking of questions, again it is faith seeking understanding.

Can you say same for our Muslim brothers? Cos many of them were born into it too, not having a choice of their own and we all know how brainwashing from early childhood could be very effective look at the suicide bombers for example..... when you’ve been associated with something for a very long time changing your beliefs system is very different (especially when ever other denomination out there has been called fake and demonic by the Priest)

When knowledge increases the understanding of the bible increases too, if our parent that couldn’t read the bible nor do certain research in history accepted the catholic faint blindly, now that we are grown it’s only logically we think of ourself and don’t rely on our parent or grant parent decision..... we should think with an open mind study the bible make valuable judgement and choose a more logical path inline with the bible to seek God.




Oh yes there are retreat organised yearly to that effect and you know it always has poor attendance and let’s not go into how ppl get shut down if they ask question not in line with the topic of the retreat.

Kingdante:

I have been there before and I can clearly tell you that 80% catholics either don’t own a bible or personally don’t study the bible...... why should they do that anyway when the bulletin is there for Sunday and almost every other society (except the Catholic charismatic renewal) in the church placed their focus on Mary and/or have a Manuel or pamphlet of selected prayers and order of worship...anyway that aside.


Technically speaking it wasn’t the Catholic church that coupled or put the bible together, it was emperor Constantine I (who happen to be a pagan and well celebrated in the occultic world) he even baptised at the time and also mind you that meeting had bishop and delegate from Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church,oriental orthodoxy, Assyrian church of the East etc in attendance.


Also it’s Important to know his reason for putting the bible together and unbanning Christianity.
It was simply to gain political support among Christian bishop and for the unification of the Roman Empire which he did by unifying Christianity and pagan worship, that is clearly seen in the tradition, doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church today...... I can give you a list of them and how it connect to pagan worship of you want me to.


It’s easy to think that the apostles taught directly in the Catholic Church but you seems to forget that for the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire and Christians terribly persecuted..... we were often told then in church that apostle Paul is the first pope, till date I am still searching for biblical, historical or archeological evidence to support that claim.


Also you said something about word of mouth teachings, let me state here one of the reason that council of Nicaea happened was that at a point in time a lot of teaching and letters were in circulation and most were not verifiable, traceable nor in line with the doctrine of the bible, thus it became confusing for Christian which teaching to follow and which is fake.....thus putting the bible together was more like verifying some and disapproving some letter and teaching in circulation. now if you are saying some of your doctrine, dogma or teaching not found in the bible was taught via word of mouth how can we verify that? especially when it not only goes against biblical doctrine but it is also out rightly condemned in the bible.

Mind you I was a catholic and I almost became a priest until I started studying the bible...... I am not trying to insult or fight over this I am just trying to wake up my fellow brother and sisters who might still be sleeping.
Be sincere to yourself my brother the disciples in the bible from what we’ve read and understood about them, do they fit into present day catholic or present day petecostant..... I leave that for my opponent to answer.
A dude here @pachukuwma made a post blasting tithe payers he just exposed his ignorance cos he clearly don’t know that the catholic pay tithe too.

Please before the the catholic church cononized the new testament, Is there any body holding what we call bible today? The answer is NO. So the the tradition of catholic church continue status quo ante. The bible did not make the church, rather the church made the bible. The bulletin you ridicle today is the word of God. And remain what the early apostles and disciples used. With your private interpretation of the bible which does not belong to you, you go against the warning of apostle Peter (2Pet 1:20), which is scandalous to the most holy cause, as everybody wake up to a new interpretation and starting a new church. Still the holy spirit cannot teach two people oposite things.

On a lighter note, have you ever carried the entire topics that make up mathematics to go for a study? So the portion of the bible the church need to study, She write it down, study and move to the next like any text book author do today, to convince rather than confuse. The impact is what you stated and I quote

kingdante:
"another point is 80% of catholic were born into it, it wasn’t a thing they choose by themselves(samething implies to our Muslim brothers)" .

In other words you have given the catholic church ISO certification in teaching the word of God.

Ubenedictus:
the quote is probably from someone's private meditations it is not from church documents, if you wish to know what that quote come from then you have to find the owner of the meditations. The titles aka the mysteries are catholic doctrines and I will gladly explain those.

The first mystery is the resurrection of Jesus found in all the gospels and in the writings of the early Christians.

Second mystery is the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven found in the Bible and in the writings of early Christians.

Third the descent of the Holy Spirit found in acts 2 and in the writings of early Christians.

Fourth mystery is the assumption of Mary meaning that after Mary's time was completed was taken by Jesus Christ into heaven, in fulfilment of the enmity and victory prophesied in gen 3:15, this is not explicitly taught in the Bible but is found in the writings of early Christians and their liturgy.

Fifth is the coronation based on scripture that promised a crown for the Saints and upon the fact that Mary of mother of the davidic king and thus queen mother, it is thus based implicitly on scripture and is found in the writings of early Christians.

Lol. You want to explain mysteries I don't know to me? Me wey been carry Legion of Mary for head. You explained the first three glorious mysteries with staunch bible reference. But the explanation of the last two that has to do with the Virgin Mary is flawed. You cannot say that Mary is coronated upon the fact that she is the mother of the David king. I would also like to see the writings of the early Christians you so talked about, let's know where they get their inspirations from

StormInc:


To start with, I am no longer a Christian. When I was a Christian, I was a Catholic. I was an altar server who later went into the Seminary and then dropped so I can boldly tell you that I know so much about the Roman Catholic Church, so much than you even think you know.

Christianity came from the Roman's and the first church is the Catholic Church. In the early stages of Christianity in Rome, the people held different beliefs and knowledge about Jesus. When Constantine the Great (Saint Constantine) converted to Christianity, he and the Nicea council (The first one set up in 325) integrated Christianity. They did a lot of changes, brought about the Nicene Creed (presently used in the Catholic Church) and selected the books of the New Testament. These things happened over hundred years after the supposed death of Jesus and his disciples - Apostles.

Have you asked yourself why the Gospel of Peter (the first and most renowned Apostle of Jesus, also the first pope of the Catholic Church) was not included in the New Testament? If you are a Catholic, take your time and go through the non-canonical gospels and figure out why they were rejected. The Gospel of Mary is even sourced from Mary Magdalene not even the "Virgin Mary ".

So my question still remains, where was these texts and first hand narrations of Mary gotten from?

So you are no longer a christian! But you are clearly anti-Catholic? So what would motivate a non-Christian to make this type of post?

Kingdante:


Technically speaking it wasn’t the Catholic church that coupled or put the bible together, it was emperor Constantine I

Also you said something about word of mouth teachings, let me state here one of the reason that council of Nicaea happened was that at a point in time a lot of teaching and letters were in circulation and most were not verifiable, traceable nor in line with the doctrine of the bible, thus it became confusing for Christian which teaching to follow and which is fake.....thus putting the bible together was more like verifying some and disapprov

Mind you I was a catholic and I almost became a priest until I started studying the bible......

Let me lend some historical perspectives from D world oldest surviving institution(D Catholic church). In our 1985 years of existence we do not define truth unless errors abound on the matter(Act 5). There was no canon scripture in the early church, in other words there was no bible. The bible is the book of the church, she is not a church of the bible. It was the church; her leadership, faithful people guided by the authority of D spirit of truth(Jn 14: 16-17) which discovered D books inspired by God in their(apostles) writing. The church did not create the canon, she discerned the canon. The council of laodicea in 360AD produced a list of books similar to today's canon, but Pope Damasus in his decree listed the books of today's canon after the council of Rome in 382AD made a case for it. The council of Hippo created the list of both D new and old testament books in 393AD as it is today. The council of carthage(N.Africa) did D same in 397AD & 419AD. But D final infalliable definition of canonical books by D catholic church came from council of Trient in 1556AD, which upheld today's bible as it is. Only 27 from hundreds books written by the apostles. Contrariwise, Constantine who know only of Biblia(books) and not Bible(book) died on 22nd of May, 337AD. So your write up is based on malicious gossips, blakmail & backed by no-facts or evidence except what wikipaedia and the some other men on the web were able to gabaged together the other day, so no leg to stand on. Teach the catholic church history because you were once a seminarian.

StormInc:


Really? Meaning you didn't read my post.

I said quoted from the Roman Catholic Missal. Try and grab a copy of the Missal or the Sacramentary and open the pages of the Glorious Mysteries.

I quoted the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 5th

This quote shows how shallow your knowledge of the Catholic Church is, or the Missal

You would not find this in a Catholic Missal. You could as well snap the missal if you have proof that is in the missal.

MosesAlex:


So you are no longer a christian! But you are clearly anti-Catholic? You what your motivation?

I thik he is one of those confused by the deep theology of the catholic church. I pray he one day pick up the pieces and move on. The oldest institution surviving on earth have enogh people like him, so lets keep him our prayer. Now he is now free with his personal theology he invented in his bedroom, maybe tomorrow he may start one mushroom church like others that have no article of faith or end up returning to the fold.

I wish him success in his endeavours.

MosesAlex:

This quote shows how shallow your knowledge of the Catholic Church is, or the Missal

You would not find this in a Catholic Missal. You could as well snap the missal if you have proof that is in the missal.

OK. Wait on that

StormInc:


I'm not trying to be biased but if God exists and the Bible is his word and Heaven and Hell is real, All Catholics are going down to Hell. To me, Catholism is a religion on its own. They hold various strange beliefs.

You claim you are not a Christian! But you believe in hell . Who really has strange beliefs?