Hi Guy out there if you know u dont pay ur TITHES in the church then go to this passage in the bible and see how we are stealing from God.

Read this

Malachi 3
1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.

2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap. 3 He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver. Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness, 4 and the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will be acceptable to the LORD, as in days gone by, as in former years.

5 "So I will come near to you for judgment. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive aliens of justice, but do not fear me," says the LORD Almighty.

Robbing God
6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed. 7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty.
"But you ask, 'How are we to return?'

8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me.
"But you ask, 'How do we rob you?'
"In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me. 10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it. 11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty. 12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.

13 "You have said harsh things against me," says the LORD.
"Yet you ask, 'What have we said against you?'

14 "You have said, 'It is futile to serve God. What did we gain by carrying out his requirements and going about like mourners before the LORD Almighty? 15 But now we call the arrogant blessed. Certainly the evildoers prosper, and even those who challenge God escape.' "

16 Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of remembrance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name.

17 "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. [a] I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him. 18 And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not.

OLE nla

Instead of "paying" your tithes to any "church" why don't you (a) spend the money on whatever your heart desires or (b) give to the poor including widows, orphans and strangers? As in the passage below:


Deu 14:22 -29

"You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year.

"And you shall eat before the LORD your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always.

"But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the LORD your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the LORD your God has blessed you,

"then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the LORD your God chooses.

"And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

"You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

"At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates.

"And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

You chaps have come again.

Why do some people like to quote only PARTIALLY from the Scriptures? Why Quote ONLY Deut. 14:22-29, as if that ALONE is all that mentions those who receive the tithes?

lovemajek:

OLE nla

If you don't know what TITHES are about, why not rather pass on silently than seek to disparage people who mention it? Is that what God has instructed opposers of tithe to do?

Why do some people like to quote only PARTIALLY from the Scriptures? Why Quote ONLY Deut. 14:22-29, as if that ALONE is all that mentions those who receive the tithes?

Oh, of course there is more; plenty more! Here is another below:



Deu 26:12, 13

"When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled,

"then you shall say before the LORD your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.

Enigma:

Instead of "paying" your tithes to any "church" why don't you (a) spend the money on whatever your heart desires or (b) give to the poor including widows, orphans and strangers? As in the passage below:

Enigma:

Oh, of course there is more; plenty more! Here is another below:

See more:

Num. 18:24
'But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.'

Does that help you READ issues carefully as I offered earlier:

pilgrim.1:

Why Quote ONLY Deut. 14:22-29, as if that ALONE is all that mentions those who receive the tithes?

So who are today's "Levites" who shall have no inheritance among the children of Israel?

Lol, Enigma. . . I could pass for a prophetess, you know - because I predicted you would come back with EXACTLY that same teaser! Wow!!

Dude (pardon my expression), read again your suggestion:

Enigma:

Instead of "paying" your tithes to any "church" why don't you (a) spend the money on whatever your heart desires or (b) give to the poor including widows, orphans and strangers?

If you were quoting Deut. 14:22-29 to suggest what people could INSTEAD do with their tithes, that is like asking people to take no notice of other texts - which I had to bring to your attention by quoting Num. 18:24. There was no need to suggest that people do this or that "INSTEAD", as if your own suggestion could replace what Scripture specifically declares.

Quoting Deut. 14:22-29 is good in its place; but don't use that to suggest the idea that people could "INSTEAD" do this or that.

Regards.

OK

Is it right and proper for a Christian to give his tithes to widows, orphans and strangers?

Note: the question is dealing with tithes specifically - -- not some other "giving"; specifically, "tithes".

I understand the difference between "tithes" specifically and other types of giving.

But why "other giving"? Which ones do we read of in Scripture? Not that distinctions are not made between them, but wouldn't it be interesting for us to carefully see what the WORD declares?

Now, my understanding is this:

It is right and proper for Christians to give their tithes FOR the cause of widows, orphans, and strangers. Please note that this is quite a different thing from giving one's tithe TO widows. The giving of one's tithe "to" widows and the fatherless in Deut. 26:12 & 13 did not mean that tithers handed them directly to those people.

For the Christian, please read HOW this is done. It was not a matter of disregarding the Church and directly handing your tithes to widows and the fatherless and the poor. Rather, when tithes have been collected in Church, they are "distributed". Let's see a few texts on this:


(a)It was a DISTRIBUTION
Acts 4:35 -- "And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need."

(b) It was a MINISTRATION
Acts 6:1 -- "And in those days, when the number of the disciples was multiplied, there arose a murmuring of the Grecians against the Hebrews, because their widows were neglected in the daily ministration."


(c) both a MINISTRATION and a DISTRIBUTION
2 Cor. 9:13 -- "Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for your liberal distribution unto them, and unto all men"

Now, as concerning the ministration to widows and other needy folks, we specifically find instruction in the NT for this service as a 'ministration'. Let's just think for a minute about these verses and ask a few questions:

1 Tim. 5:3-5, 9
"Honour widows that are widows indeed. But if any widow have children or nephews, let them learn first to shew piety at home, and to requite their parents: for that is good and acceptable before God. . . Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man."

Question - if indeed we are to HONOUR widows, where is the money going to come from? Alms? 'Dash'? Let's understand that in the NT, it was part of the ministration that was specifically observed. Christians gave their tithes for such purposes as well as others. It's unfortunate today that many people do not discern these things, and so if they don't see the word "tithe" in those verses, they argue endlessly that a Christian is NOT to tithe!

God asks us to HONOUR widows (that is a serious responsibility). We can't treat them with careless attitude as many do these days. It is a God-given injunction - and to fail in that, is to actually fail in obeying God in that injunction.

Question - the text also says that "widows who are widows indeed" should be cared for. Does that not make us understand that people don't just get up and give their tithes directly to "widows" and 'orphans'? Is that not telling us that it is a specific ministry in the CHURCH?

Question - do those text not distinguish the collections from what we might consider are other types of giving? Of course, Jesus mentioned another type of giving - "But rather give alms of such things as ye have; and, behold, all things are clean unto you" (Luke 11:41). We can't equate "tithes" and "alms" as if they were treated the same in the WORD.


- - - -

In another thread, I had so much to share on TITHING. But I was rather put off by the strain to exchange words instead of discussing. If we might benefit at all on this subject, oh my goodness. . . I have soo, sooo much to share. I only seek that people may come to an understand of the "essence of tithing". As my good friend somze said: "If you believe in tithe, tithe, if not give and forget it." Lol, I trust when we see this, we'll come to understand the blessings connected with tithing.

Bless all.

better to give your hard earned money to the needy and the poor than to give it up as tithe to the rich pastors, white people dont give tithe, yet they are more blessed financially than we, i strongly believe that its better to help those who are in need around you than to give the money out in form of tithe to the church(criminal pastors)

It is right and proper for Christians to give their tithes FOR the cause of widows, orphans, and strangers. Please note that this is quite a different thing from giving one's tithe TO widows. The giving of one's tithe "to" widows and the fatherless in Deut. 26:12 & 13 did not mean that tithers handed them directly to those people.

I think you should go and read the relevant passages again --- carefully. You will see that they say give the tithes to widows, orphans etc. The individual Christian is supposed, by him/herself, to give the tithes directly to the needy people. Jesus Christ further confirmed this by saying: (rough quote) " , as long as you did it for one of these you did it for Me".

The teaching of bring your tithes to the church is false teaching perpetrated by some innocently but by too many fraudulently.

Enigma:

I think you should go and read the relevant passages again --- carefully. You will see that they say give the tithes to widows, orphans etc. The individual Christian is supposed, by him/herself, to give the tithes directly to the needy people.

I read the text; but more than that, instead of taking the word "to" at face value to mean that we give them directly to widows and bypass those appointed to receive the tithes, we have to study it to understand HOW this was done.

There were several ways this was done - and several purposes as well to which the tithes were taken. However, let me leave you just a few  for now. I'll start with the very same book (Deuteronomy) that you had quoted earlier:

A.
Deu 12:5-8, 17 (they were to "BRING" their tithes to a designated place)

"But unto the place which the LORD your God shall choose out of all your tribes
to put his name there, even unto his habitation shall ye seek, and thither thou shalt come:
And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes,
and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings
of your herds and of your flocks: And there ye shall eat before the LORD your God, and ye shall
rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the LORD thy God
hath blessed thee.

Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.

Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil,
or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest,
nor thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand"


Notice that verse 8 specifically warned that people are not to do as they pleased with this injunction! That is why I really shy away from personal opinions that fail to consider God's WORD.


B
Deut. 14:28-29 (TITHES at the end of every THREE YEARS to be laid up at the GATES for the poor)

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year,
and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance
with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates,
shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work
of thine hand which thou doest.


C
Tithes were to be gathered to the HOUSE of GOD - and this was the most common practice

2 Chron. 31:5, 6, 12
"And as soon as the commandment came abroad, the children of Israel brought in abundance
the firstfruits of corn, wine, and oil, and honey, and of all the increase of the field;
and the tithe of all things brought they in abundantly. And concerning the children of Israel
and Judah, that dwelt in the cities of Judah, they also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep,
and the tithe of holy things which were consecrated unto the LORD their God, and laid them by heaps. . . .
And brought in the offerings and the tithes and the dedicated things faithfully: over which Cononiah
the Levite was ruler, and Shimei his brother was the next."

Neh. 10:37 & 38
"And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner
of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes
of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

Mal. 3:10
"Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now
herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out
a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."


It is clear from all these texts and more that the idea that tithes were given just as any chose was foreign to Scripture. People often suppose that one could simply just give their tithes "to" widows and poor folks, rather than give in Church! When we do that, we sadly manifest a rebellious heart before God, though we may not realize what we do when we make such statements.

Enigma:

Jesus Christ further confirmed this by saying: (rough quote) " , as long as you did it for one of these you did it for Me".

Lol. . . but in that text, Jesus was referring simply to acts of kindness, and not specifically to TITHES and OFFERINGS. See for yourself:

Matt. 25:37-40 

"Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee?
or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and
clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

It is clear the Lord was not discussing TITHES or OFFERINGS there at all; but we can't say that the passage itself has no bearing on giving in other ways.

Enigma:

The teaching of bring your tithes to the church is false teaching perpetrated by some innocently but by too many fraudulently.

Many things have been abused by Christians around the world, but [b]AB[/b]USE is not reason for [b]DIS[/b]USE!

To bring our tithes and offerings to Church is NOT false teaching. I would dare say that the false assumption is made by those who really haven't taken the time to study the subject.

The text, language and spirit of the passages are all clear: give tithes to widows, orphans and strangers. Clear, plain and simple. There is no need for unnecessary gyrations to try and re[/i]interprete what is plain and straightforward.

It is false teaching to insist on bringing "tithes" only into "church". Worse, the false teaching should not be exacerbated by [i]adding to what is written in the Bible.


To even make you see some of the passages clearly, here is another question:

Is it right and proper for a person to spend "tithe money" on whatever his own heart desires?

Enigma:

The text, language and spirit of the passages are all clear: give tithes to widows, orphans and strangers. Clear, plain and simple. There is no need for unnecessary gyrations to try and re[/i]interprete what is plain and straightforward.

I'm not REinterpreting anything - that's why I simply offered the text to the point. What I would have expected is that you take those text and show me where they are NOT saying what I pointed out to you. Could you offer me that? Thanks.

Enigma:

It is false teaching to insist on bringing "tithes" only into "church".

The false teaching is actually placing one's own suggestions above what Scripture says. Remember Deut. 12:8? If you're making your own suggestion of "INSTEAD" to stand above the instruction given concerning TITHES and OFFERINGS, is that not actually doing the very thing that you're denouncing?

Enigma:

Worse, the false teaching should not be exacerbated by [i]adding to what is written in the Bible.

Neither should the false teaching be fed by SUBTRACTING from what is given in the Bible.

Enigma:

To even make you see some of the passages clearly, here is another question:

Is it right and proper for a person to spend "tithe money" on whatever his own heart desires?

The point is that the passages deal with a lot of things - NONE of which brings about the suggestion of "INSTEAD".

Second, if you're reading the passages partially, I would say NO! Go read it and see what it says and rest your thoughts there!

But if you look more closely at that passage, you'd see that there was a DESIGNATED PLACE where God instructed that they could enjoy their tithes on whatever they desired. To snatch the text out of its context and narrow it to the subtractions you're offering is not a healthy way to deal with issues.

Cheers.

The last question was really very simple:

Can a "tithe-payer" of today choose in some instance or on some occasion to spend the tithe on whatever his heart desires?

To the question I believe YES.

Enigma:

The last question was really very simple:

Can a "tithe-payer" of today choose in some instance or on some occasion to spend the tithe on whatever his heart desires?

Do you want an answer from the WORD, or you're rather asking for personal sentiments? Lol.

I don't see it stated that a "tithe-payer" of today chooses in some instance or some occasion to spend the tithe on whatever his heart desires. If he does not want to give tithes, no worries. If he thinks he has tithes and wants to "choose" to do something else with them, no worries still. At the end of the day, he should be firmly convinced in his heart that he is not playing games with the WORD and substituting his ideas instead to soothe his conscience.

The WORD is clear:

(a) God gave specific instructions for tithes

(b) believers should seek to understand those instructions

(c) having understood them, seek to obey them

(d) it is not a matter of coercion or doing as one pleases

(e) God is honoured as His Word is kept by willing hearts.

Regards.

Next questions:

1. Is Malachi 3 applicable to today's Christian?

2. Is Deuteronomy 14 applicable to today's Christian?

3. If you say Deuteronomy 14 does not apply to today's Christian, can you then still say that Malachi 3 applies to the Christian?

4. Or do both apply - in which case the Christian can make a choice?


Think about these things --- carefully!

Enigma:

Next questions:

1. Is Malachi 3 applicable to today's Christian?

2. Is Deuteronomy 14 applicable to today's Christian?

3. If you say Deuteronomy 14 does not apply to today's Christian, can you then still say that Malachi 3 applies to the Christian?

4. Or do both apply - in which case the Christian can make a choice?


Think about these things --- carefully!

Okay, thanks for your observations - and I've thought them through. Carefully.

My response is that those text actually hold true for the Christian in principle rather in literality.

1. Malachi 3 and all the preceding texts I've offered show precisely that there is a DESIGNATED PLACE for our offerings (cf. 1 Cor. 16:1-3).

2. Deuteronomy 14 reveals several things; and we find the same principles of some of them in the NT (cf. 2 Cor. 8:14-15).

3. Both Deuteronomy 14 and Malachi 3 apply to the Christian in PRINCIPLES rather than literarily.

4. A Christian is free to make a "choice" -

(a) either for bad (Acts 5:4 - "whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power?"

(b) or nobly (2 Cor. 9:7 - "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart".

I believe that when we seek to carefully understand what PRINCIPLES are given to Christians, the ambiguities disappear.

To make things easier, I'll reduce the questions to just two:

1. Does Malachi 3 apply to today's Christian?

2. Does Deuteronomy 14 apply to today's Christian?


Again, think about it veeery carefully.

Both texts apply in PRINCIPLE.

OK

1. What is/are the principle(s) derived from Malachi 3?

2. What is/are the principle(s) derived from Deuteronomy 14:22-29?

3. What is/are the principle(s) derived from Deu 26:12, 13 (quoted below with some emphases added)?


"When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled,

"then you shall say before the LORD your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them."

It all depends on what exactly you're looking for. I already gave you highlights earlier (https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-72266.0.html#msg1391051). Perhaps, if you'd taken the time to go through each point, you'd see that your concerns have been addressed there.

However, I'd still oblige you and list them again:

A.
Deut. 12:5-8, 17 (they were to "BRING" their tithes to a designated place)

    - - - this, of course, is stressed in Deuteronomy 14:23

         "thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there"


B
Deut. 14:28-29 (TITHES at the end of every THREE YEARS to be laid up at the GATES for the poor)

       - - - there is a difference between the yearly tithes and that which was done every THREE years!

      The principle is that the widows and needy were cared for. Compare this with 1 Tim. 5:3 & 9


C
Tithes were to be gathered to the HOUSE of GOD - and this was the most common practice.

      - - - this is where the principle of Mal. 3:10 comes in - bring the tithes to the HOUSE.

The Church is the House of God (1 Tim. 3:15). God expects us to bring our tithes and offerings to Church so that there would be a MINISTRATION and DISTRIBUTION to widows and needy saints out of what was collected in Church (2 Cor. 9:13).

All these issues I already shared. It's remarkable that you're repating yourself endlessly and still not moving on to other things.

Unless you want to apply Deut. 14 and Mal. 3 in a literal way, then we would have to discuss further so that we can then see why God rather gave the PRINCIPLES for our instruction as CHRISTIANS.

Could I now ask you:

   Do those text apply at all - or they do NOT apply in any way at all?

I have been deliberately asking those questions to prevent reading into the text what is not there. What we are supposed to do is read out of the text what is in there. That way we hear from scripture what it wants us to know rather than read into it or transfer into it our preconceptions which often are misconceptions.

1. It is a misconception to interprete Deut. 14 as meaning bring your "tithes" into church; you can only arrive at that conclusion by reading into scripture what is not there.

2. Deuteronomy 26:2 is pretty clear --- the tithes were to be within the gates of the "tither" and the orphans etc were supposed to eat the tithes again within the gates of the tither. You can only conclude that this now means a "church" by reading into scripture what is not there.

3. Deut. 14 was clear that the tither in that instance could himself eat the tithe or spend money realised from selling it on whatever his heart desires; if there is a principle in that passage which is still applicable today, how is that fulfilled by "paying" the "tithes" into "church"? How does the believer himself enjoy his tithe to please God as the passage directs if "tithes" must always and only be paid into "church".


To keep things simple, I'll leave you to go and think carefully and meditate on those points for now.

I could give you a lot more insight or, if you like, "revelations" later.

Enigma:

I have been deliberately asking those questions to prevent reading into the text what is not there. What we are supposed to do is read out of the text what is in there. That way we hear from scripture what it wants us to know rather than read into it or transfer into it our preconceptions which often are misconception.

No worries - and that is precisely what I've been offering you. I'm fully aware of the difference between EISEGESIS and EXEGESIS. If you think I'm reading into the texts, simply show that the texts I offered so far are NOT saying what I have been stating. QED.

Enigma:

1. It is a misconception to interprete Deut. 13 as meaning bring your "tithes" into churh; you can only arrive at that conclusion by reading into scripture what is not there.

I don't remember quoting Deut. 13 as yet. Mind editing?

Enigma:

2. Deuteronomy 26:2 is pretty clear --- the tithes were to be within the gates of the "tither" and the orphans etc were supposed to eat the tithes again within the gates of the tither. You can only conclude that this now means a "church" by reading into scripture what is not there.

This is what Deut. 26:2 states:

"That thou shalt take of the first of all the fruit of the earth, which thou shalt bring of thy
land that the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt put it in a basket, and shalt go unto
the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name there."

I don't see where you hurriedly inferred it was to be "within thy gates" in that text. Besides, you'd have a huge problem distinguishing between the tithes that were to be eaten within their gates and those which were not to be so treated. Are you already reading stuff INTO the texts?

Enigma:

3. Deut. 14 was clear that the tither in that instance could himself eat the tithe or spend money realised from selling it on whatever his heart desires; if there is a principle in that passage which is still applicable today, how is that fulfilled by "paying" the "tithes" into "church"? How does the believer himself enjoy his tithe to please God as the passage directs i "tithes" must always and only be paid into "church".

I've shown you already from Acts 5:4 that a tither was free to do as he pleases with his tithe instead of playing games and making his personal choice on the matter read as what he did not actually intend. If you want to "choose" instead to do as you please with your tithes, please do so. But your personal opinions are not the same as the clear instruction found in the WORD.

Enigma:

To keep things simple, I'll leave ou to go and think carefully and meditate o those points for now.

I could give you a lot more insight or, if you like, "revelations" later.

I'm open to learning. I only wish that we keep eisegesis and exegesis as distinctly as possibly could be managed.

OK here goes again:

Sorry for a couple of loose references:

For Deut 13 read Deut 14 as already edited before your reply.

For Deut 26:2, read 26:12,13 as quoted below:

"When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled,

"then you shall say before the LORD your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.



Finally, a word of caution to you: has it ever occurred to you that perhaps and just possibly you may be presenting your own opinion as the "WORD"? Worse, whether it be your own personally formed opinion or opinion you have learned from your pastor/teacher, that it may be wrong ----- and how unfortunate it would be to present wrong opinion as the "WORD".

Enigma:

OK here goes again:

Sorry for a couple of loose references:

For Deut 13 read Deut 14 as already edited before your reply.

Okay, sorry about that. However, since we're dealing with principles, I'd like to ask two questions:

     (a) what is the House of God today?

     (b) where do we find God's name today?

If the principle does not apply, then there isn't any sound reason to suppose at all that we should give any offering in Church - because it would be a meaningless exercise in the first place. There is a reason why God specifically mentioned that they sought out the place where He chose to place His name there; and we cannot ignore that reason.

Enigma:

For Deut 26:2, read 26:12,13 as quoted below:

"When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled,

"then you shall say before the LORD your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.

Let me point out a few things here. Is there not a difference between "thy gates" (as referring to their individual dwellings) and "your gates" (as referring to the national boundaries of the land of Israel)? Here again:

  (a) Eat WITHIN thy gates

       Deut. 12:15
"Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth
after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean
and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart."


  (b) Do NOT Eat Your Tithes Within Thy Gates

       Deut. 12:17
"Thou mayest not eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn, or of thy wine, or of thy oil,
or the firstlings of thy herds or of thy flock, nor any of thy vows which thou vowest, nor
thy freewill offerings, or heave offering of thine hand"


Do you now see why we must be careful to distinguish issues and not assume them in a general manner? I could share more on this; but I just wanted you to see the difference about eating within the gates and being expressly forbidden to do so! It is all a matter of context - and the moment we take our eyes off that, our inferences will definitely be skewed.

Immediate after the express forbidding to NOT eat their tithes within their gates in Deut. 12:17, we find that in verse 18 they are told to eat the tithes at a designated place:

       Deut. 12:18
"But thou must eat them before the LORD thy God in the place which the LORD thy God shall
choose, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and
the Levite that is within thy gates: and thou shalt rejoice before the LORD thy God in all
that thou puttest thine hands unto."

It is rather further down in verse 21 that a CONDITION is given as to an exemption:

         Deut. 12:21
"If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from
thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee,
as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after."

Please, let's be careful to see the distinctions - they are clear and precise.

Enigma:

Finally, a word of caution to you: has it ever occurred to you that perhaps and just possibly you may be presenting your own opinion as the "WORD"? Worse, whether it be your own personally formed opinion or opinion you have learned from your pastor/teacher, that it may be wrong ----- and how unfortunate it would be to present wrong opinion as the "WORD".

Thank you for your brotherly caution. Let me say this, however:

If the text I've been discussing are NOT saying what I have been pointing out all along, I would humbly welcome anyone pointing them out to me and showing me precisely HOW they are so. If no such efforts are made to point them out, I'd only have to ask where such people think that the issues I discuss out of Scripture have suddenly become my opinion?

If the WORD does not say what I've been pointing out, then they are my opinions. If they do, and people cannot accept them, I'm not commissioned to quarrel or fight them for their views. The one thing I'd be more interested in is that they kindly show me where my references contradict what I state.

Cheers.

It's very late now but I'll deal with one or two points; I can address any further thing you want me to later.

1. In English language and in the relevant Bible passages, "thy" and "your" mean one and the same thing.

2. In the relevant Bible passages, both "thy gates" and "your gates" refer to the tither's gates.

3. Deut 14 deals with the occasional feast (really, a massive party) that the Israelites held; yes they were told to go to where the Lord set his name --- but it was not a "church"; it is also not comparable with today's buildings that we call "churches".

4. This emphasis on "church" is misplaced ---- remember the Lord does not dwell in buildings made of human hands (hope you are familiar with that passage).

5. Distinguish the different injunctions or directions concerning tithes: if you go back and do a proper exegesis, you will see that God clearly said on some occasions for the tither himself to eat the tithe; on one occasion to even spend tithe money on anything (including alcohol!); on several occasions He said to give the tithes directly to widows, orphans etc === not through any intermediary, but directly i.e. no "store-house" business; yes the famous Malachi passage says bring the tithe into the Store-house but did you know that the Book of Malachi was mostly a rebuke to priests who were abusing the people's tithes? Go and study Malachi Chapter 2 carefully; indeed both chapters 1&2, then you can see chapter 3 in fuller context.

6. In any event, tithing is absolutely not a commandment for the Christian, hence neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles bothered to teach Christians to do it. The Christian duty is summed up in 2 Cor. 9 i.e. give cheerfully as you purpose in your own heart.

I'll leave you to ponder those for now.

Sleep tight.

A demain.

Enigma:

It's very late now but I'll deal with one or two points; I can address any further thing you want me to later.

1. In English language and in the relevant Bible passages, "thy" and "your" mean one and the same thing.

2. In the relevant Bible passages, both "thy gates" and "your gates" refer to the tither's gates.

Lol, I was leaving you a teaser - and you predictably failed to see the distinction. Enigma, go through the texts and see that a clear distinction is made in the OT between "thy gates" as referring to individual dwellings, and "thy gates" as referring to the national boundary of the land of Israel. They are not the same things. If you want a few more texts to clarify just that issue, then consider the following:

Deut. 6:9 -- "And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates."

Deut. 11:20 -- "And thou shalt write them upon the door posts of thine house, and upon thy gates"

If you consider Deut. 26:12, you'd find that "thy gates" is clearly referring to the country precincts itself rather than to individual dwellings. Compare that text in the following translations for clarification:

ESV - English Standard Version
""When you have finished paying all the tithe of your produce in the third year,
which is the year of tithing, giving it to the Levite, the sojourner, the fatherless,
and the widow, so that they may eat within your towns and be filled"

HCSB - Holman Christian Standard Bible
""When you have finished paying all the tenth of your produce in the third year,
the year of the tenth, you are to give it to the Levite, the foreign resident, the
fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied."

The point is that they were to go to a designated place according to where God chose to place His Name - and there they should eat and rejoice before the LORD. The exception to this was made on CONDITION that the designated place was far off from the tither (Duet. 12:12).

Now, why do you suppose that on the one hand, they were asked to eat within their gates (Deut. 12:15); and on the other hand, they were expressly forbidded to do so (Deut. 12:17)?!? Have you carefully considered those text? The latter clearly states: "Thou mayest NOT eat within thy gates the tithe of thy corn." Why do you suppose this prohibition was given?

Enigma:

3. Deut 14 deals with the occasional feast (really, a massive party) that the Israelites held; yes they were told to go to where the Lord set his name --- but it was not a "church"; it is also not comparable with today's buildings that we call "churches".

I never hinted that Deut. 14 was literarily speaking of a Church - I mentioned once and again that it was in PRINCIPLE! And I also asked you simple questions:

(a) what is the House of God today?

(b) where do we find God's name today?

You offered no answers. WHY so?

Enigma:

4. This emphasis on "church" is misplaced ---- remember the Lord does not dwell in buildings made of human hands (hope you are familiar with that passage).

Please consult the verses in the NT I offered earlier. I'm beginning to feel you simply don't read my rejoinders before repeating the same stuff again and again.

If you have NOTHING to show that you give your tithes and offerings in Church, you should also be able to find the NT verses that ask that you as a CHRISTIAN should eat your tithes in your gates! Do you have such verses, please? How many times would I have to repeat the issue of "PRINCIPLE" once and again before it sinks in?

Enigma, do one simple thing: if Deuteronomy offers you no NT principle, then close the OT and go over to the NT and find the verse(s) that instructs you to EAT YOUR TITHES WITHIN YOUR Gates. It's that simple. If you feel that the principles I offered are "misplaced", I really want to see the NT verses for you to eat your tithes in your gates. QED.

Enigma:

5. Distinguish the different injunctions or directions concerning tithes: if you go back and do a proper exegesis, you will see that God clearly said on some occasions for the tither himself to eat the tithe; on one occasion to even spend tithe money on anything (including alcohol!); on several occasions He said to give the tithes directly to widows, orphans etc === not through any intermediary, but directly i.e. no "store-house" business;

You're making selective reading because you simply don't want to see the WHOLE.

If the tithes were to be given "directly" to widows and orphans, as you supposed, WHAT was the need to take their tithes to a DESIGNATED PLACE?!? Why not just simple bestow them on the widows in their streets instead of having to take them all the way to the DESIGNATED PLACE as God instructed? Have you carefully considered why that was necessary? Did you fail to see that they were distributed to all?

Just because it says "to" does not suppose that the tithes were just handed directly to them - that simply would negate the injunction to take their tithes to such a designated place as God commanded!

Enigma:

yes the famous Malachi passage says bring the tithe into the Store-house but did you know that the Book of Malachi was mostly a rebuke to priests who were abusing the people's tithes? Go and study Malachi Chapter 2 carefully; indeed both chapters 1&2, then you can see chapter 3 in fuller context.

This is such a laugh! Now who were to bring the tithes? Was it merely priests who were to pay tithes? What about the Israelites? I think you miss the whole point of Malachi 3.

Malachi 1:1 already identifies those to whom the message was addressed: "The burden of the word of the LORD to Israel by Malachi." It was not merely to the priests; but rather to the whole NATION!

Chapter 2:1 specifically addresses the priests: "And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you"; whereas, verse 11 broadens the scope and includes Judah and Israel: "Judah hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god."

Now it is interesting to note that when we turn to chapter 3, the WHOLE NATION is addressed with regards to TITHES and OFFERINGS. Please carefully consider this:

Malachi 3:9-12
"Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION.
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house,
and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the
windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room
enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall
not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before
the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed:
for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts."

Now I wonder where you got the idea that Malachi 3 was addressing merely the priests, whereas God clearly was addressing the WHOLE NATION?!? Why do people like to asume things without first carefully checking them out for themselves?

Enigma:

6. In any event, tithing is absolutely not a commandment for the Christian, hence neither Jesus nor any of the Apostles bothered to teach Christians to do it. The Christian duty is summed up in 2 Cor. 9 i.e. give cheerfully as you purpose in your own heart.

Lol. Both the Lord Jesus and the apostles addressed the issue of TITHING, but many people UP UNTIL TODAY continue to miss it. I just like to sometimes relax and continue asking questions where many people let their assumptions run ahead of them. But I'll try not to do so with you. Instead, I'd rather ask that you go and carefully, prayerfully, and patiently study the NT - and I guarantee you that God will show you that it is there.

When people assume it is NOT a commandment, I simply smile and say a silent prayer that God will open their eyes to see it!

Enigma:

I'll leave you to ponder those for now.

Sleep tight.

A demain.

Ya also. Cheers and be refreshed when you awake.

sorry for the digression, I am enjoying this discourse immenseley

pilgrim are you married? If not I want to propose to you right now, please be my wife

Pilgrim1

1. "Thy gates"/"Your gates" ---- my error; you were right "gates" was referring to something wider than the individual tither's gates; I was focussing too much on "house" and forgot the wider context.

2. However, even though some translations render it as "your towns", the sense of the passage is actually --- "among you" or "within your community"; and some translations render it this way. In other words, the point of the passage is that tithers were to give their tithes to (or share their tithes with) widows etc among them or within their community.

3. On your question of where is the house of God? --- The house of God is the person of each Christian --- not some edifice or building that people call "church". Yep, the church building is good to have for meetings of Christians and should be respected --- but ultimately it is just a building. You will recall that the earliest Christians did not have church buildings; they met sometimes in secret and fear in private houses among other places.

4. On your question of where do we find God's name today? --- Very simple: in the hearts and minds of Christians or believers. You may remember that He said, 'I will write My name in their hearts'. Remember again that the early Christians had no church buildings; you are not going to say they did not have God's name because they did not have church buildings, are you?

5. On the New Testament and tithes: the NT did not focus on tithing because of its irrelevance to Christians. Jesus only made a passing reference to it in relation to Pharisees that He was rebuking. If tithing was important, He would have taught it; He did not bother with it; rather he taught, again and again, charity. The only other significant NT passage mentioning tithing is the oft misinterpreted Hebrews passage which really was in the context of explaining that Old Testament practices do not carry over into the Christian era. Other than those two references, both of which are ultimately passing references, you will not find anyone teaching tithing in the New Testament ----- because it is irrelevant.


Back to issues to ponder in trying to interprete the tithing passages correctly.

1. The tithes that the tither was supposed to eat himself: are you going to say he first had to hand them over to priests; collect them again before eating them?

2. If the place was far, he was to sell the tithes for money: was this sale being done by priests on his behalf or did he do the selling himself?

3. He was to spend the money on whatever his heart desired; did he give the money to priests to spend on his behalf? So will he say to the priest, my heart desires some wine; then the priest to whom he had given the money will arrange to buy the wine for him?


4. Now apply similar principles to the tithes to be given to or shared with widows, orphans etc; even if there might have been some central sharing --- are you going to say that the Bible passages forbid a tither from giving tithes directly to or sharing tithes directly with widows, orphans etc "within their towns" or "within their gates" or "among them" or "within their community" --- whichever expression you prefer?

5. So if sharing tithes today with widows, orphans etc today should only be done through the "church", could you please point us to where "churches" are distributing these things to widows, orphans etc ------ preferably every month since they collect the tithes every month?

6. Can you say that a Christian who takes his "tithe" and shares it himself with his next door neighbour who is a needy widow and another who is a needy orphan is wrong ---- simply because he did not take the "tithe" to "church"?


Consider these for now; there are of course wider issues e.g. how "tithes" was not even money essentially but I'm trying to keep things narrow as to be more readily manageable.