johnydon22:
Purpose.

Worlds like heaven or paradise lack purpose therefore meaningless.

johnydon22:


https://www.nairaland.com/4560157/perfect-world-heaven-not-really

I think were you make a mistake is in including things like wants and desires in bad. You have practically constructed a world devoid of feeling literally. How is cold ie feeling the temperature difference in your environment bad? How is the desire to have sex or eat bad?

A world devoid of all feeling is a dead world not just a world devoid of bad.

If I was to imagine a world without bad it won't be devoid of desires or feeling.

LordReed:


I think were you make a mistake is in including things like wants and desires in bad.

You'll see.

You have practically constructed a world devoid of feeling literally.

Actually a world without negativity is such a world.

How is cold ie feeling the temperature difference in your environment bad?

In fact too hot or too cold weather is an existential threat to anything.

How is the desire to have sex or eat bad?

Lack of these things are bad thus the purpose behind trying to acquire them. Savvy?

And if i am to make a philosophical stretch of this question then it would go like so: Without desire, lack loses it effect, so the very bad in lack derives strength in our desire. If we do not have the desire, we would be unaffected by lack therefore, desire is the fundamental wrong of lack.

A world devoid of all feeling is a dead world not just a world devoid of bad.

A world devoid of bad is purposely dead.

If I was to imagine a world without bad it won't be devoid of desires or feeling.

What is there to desire when everything is there? Would you desire life in a world where you can't die? Would you desire food in a world your belly is always filled up? Would you desire pleasure if you don't know pain is? What is happiness if you do not know what sadness is.

Desire do not exist without lack.
Would you desire money if you had an infinite wealth?

purpose comes with a goal

and the very purpose of life is to not die, it makes sense that in a universe where life is in an incessant threat of annihilation, an intrinsic purpose to life becomes inevitable.

Remove hunger, remove want, remove lack, remove need - there is absolutely no reason you, i or anyone would get up in the morning and plunge into struggle.

If there was no suffering in poverty, why bother be rich?

It is in the negative parts of life that we formulate a purpose to live.

Life without negative aspect of existence lacks the very foundation for meaning.

think about your perfect world.

gensteejay:

Nice one. Your depth in philosophy (as a field) is commendable. What's your own philosophy? Atheism? Theism? Spinozism?

I lean towards agnostic atheism.

johnydon22:
I lean towards agnostic atheism.

Interesting.

gensteejay:

Interesting.

I suppose it is.

Everything is Meaningless!!!! Atheism is what we call 'I don't believe in God'. But I don't really think atheists should even explain their position.Stating it should be enough as they are definitely not scared of the unknown. But theists won't allow them to stop talking about their Gods.I just desire all positives. Even the 'untestable' ones. I am not an atheist/theist/freethinker/agnostic/gnostic/Whatever Humans Practice.......I'm Hell and my intellect burns everyday.Anything that REALLY makes me happy is my stuff.You might hear me saying 'Thank God' or 'Jesus is Lord' but it is for a specific purpose.My Philosophy involves a lot of "Practical Wisdom/Informed Logic-related thoughts".I can't always be what I am and I am always what I can't be.

johnydon22:
You'll see.

Actually a world without negativity is such a world.

In fact too hot or too cold weather is an existential threat to anything.

Lack of these things are bad thus the purpose behind trying to acquire them. Savvy?

And if i am to make a philosophical stretch of this question then it would go like so: Without desire, lack loses it effect, so the very bad in lack derives strength in our desire. If we do not have the desire, we would be unaffected by lack therefore, desire is the fundamental wrong of lack.

A world devoid of bad is purposely dead.

What is there to desire when everything is there? Would you desire life in a world where you can't die? Would you desire food in a world your belly is always filled up? Would you desire pleasure if you don't know pain is? What is happiness if you do not know what sadness is.

Desire do not exist without lack.
Would you desire money if you had an infinite wealth?

purpose comes with a goal

and the very purpose of life is to not die, it makes sense that in a universe where life is in an incessant threat of annihilation, an intrinsic purpose to life becomes inevitable.

Remove hunger, remove want, remove lack, remove need - there is absolutely no reason you, i or anyone would get up in the morning and plunge into struggle.

If there was no suffering in poverty, why bother be rich?

It is in the negative parts of life that we formulate a purpose to live.

Life without negative aspect of existence lacks the very foundation for meaning.

think about your perfect world.

When I think of a perfect world this is not what I think about. This world you have imagined is dead, there is nothing but living husks, of course such a world will be purposeless.

I am sleepy right now, I will dissect your world tomorrow and see if we can't reimagine one that is free of bad but yet still lives.

johnydon22:
You'll see.

Actually a world without negativity is such a world.

In fact too hot or too cold weather is an existential threat to anything.

Lack of these things are bad thus the purpose behind trying to acquire them. Savvy?

And if i am to make a philosophical stretch of this question then it would go like so: Without desire, lack loses it effect, so the very bad in lack derives strength in our desire. If we do not have the desire, we would be unaffected by lack therefore, desire is the fundamental wrong of lack.

A world devoid of bad is purposely dead.

What is there to desire when everything is there? Would you desire life in a world where you can't die? Would you desire food in a world your belly is always filled up? Would you desire pleasure if you don't know pain is? What is happiness if you do not know what sadness is.

Desire do not exist without lack.
Would you desire money if you had an infinite wealth?

purpose comes with a goal

and the very purpose of life is to not die, it makes sense that in a universe where life is in an incessant threat of annihilation, an intrinsic purpose to life becomes inevitable.

Remove hunger, remove want, remove lack, remove need - there is absolutely no reason you, i or anyone would get up in the morning and plunge into struggle.

If there was no suffering in poverty, why bother be rich?

It is in the negative parts of life that we formulate a purpose to live.

Life without negative aspect of existence lacks the very foundation for meaning.

think about your perfect world.

"Everything is Meaningless" .And the fact that you could think of all these only validates the quoted statement.Why should you be comfortable with negativity? What caused you to imagine something that only exists in dictionaries(perfection)? Why do you think you have proved anything? Why do you celebrate the 'possibility of masterminded nonsense'?

LordReed:


When I think of a perfect world this is not what I think about. This world you have imagined is dead, there is nothing but living husks, of course such a world will be purposeless.

Isn't that the point, showing that a world devoid of negativity is dead and purposeless?

I am sleepy right now, I will dissect your world tomorrow and see if we can't reimagine one that is free of bad but yet still lives.

Good. We'll see. Lol.
The whole point here is to demonstrate that imperfection is necessary for purpose.

HellVictorinho:


"Everything is Meaningless" .And the fact that you could think of all these only validates the quoted statement.Why should you be comfortable with negativity?

Who talked about being comfortable in negativity? Are you reading a different discussion?

What caused you to imagine something that only exists in dictionaries(perfection)?

Isn't the point to demonstrate that it does not exist and imperfection is a necessity?

Why do you think you have proved anything? Why do you celebrate the 'possibility of masterminded nonsense'?

What

HellVictorinho:
Everything is Meaningless!!!! Atheism is what we call 'I don't believe in God'. But I don't really think atheists should even explain their position.Stating it should be enough as they are definitely not scared of the unknown. But theists won't allow them to stop talking about their Gods.I just desire all positives. Even the 'untestable' ones. I am not an atheist/theist/freethinker/agnostic/gnostic/Whatever Humans Practice.......I'm Hell and my intellect burns everyday.Anything that REALLY makes me happy is my stuff.You might hear me saying 'Thank God' or 'Jesus is Lord' but it is for a specific purpose.My Philosophy involves a lot of "Practical Wisdom/Informed Logic-related thoughts".I can't always be what I am and I am always what I can't be.

Good for you!

johnydon22:
Who talked about being comfortable in negativity? Are you reading a different discussion?

Isn't the point to demonstrate that it does not exist and imperfection is a necessity?

What

Imperfection is whatever happens to exist imperfectly.But perfection shouldn't be an option. It should be default whether or not God exists.The 'settings' for existence are simply absurd.I also know you are not comfortable in negativity. But you are comfortable with its possibility due to the so-called purpose it leads to.You should understand that 'love,good,bad' are just words.Their meanings can't actualize all the ideas that necessitate their usage in communication. And expressing them in other languages won't change anything about that so just accept that we don't even have to ascribe intelligence to any design or purpose to any misdeamenour.

Ranchhoddas:
My problem with the atheistic position is that it does not account for the supernatural/paranormal things that happens around us. It simply dismisses, chalks it up as coincidence or outrightly denies them.
This in my view is dishonest.

To the believer, no proof is necessary, to the unbeliever no proof is enough --Thomas Aquinas.

There are atheists that believe in supernatural activities although very minority.

Most atheists don't account for supernatural/paranormal because most times it cannot be proven or it can easily be explain. Thunder and lightning was ones seen as supernatural!

Even if supernatural can be proven but can't be explain then we shouldn't jump into conclusion of it is "supernatural", there are many phenomena we don't even know their causes, well maybe super-natural is a good word just maybe.

tintingz:
There are atheists that believe in supernatural activities although very minority.

Know any on here?

Most atheists don't account for supernatural/paranormal because most times it cannot be proven or it can easily be explain. Thunder and lightning was ones seen as supernatural!

They don't, they just deny. Thunder and lightening are phenomena that are constant. They are expected whenever there is rain.
I am talking about things like verified faith healing, reversal of genotypes upon prayer or laying of hands.

Even if supernatural can be proven but can't be explain then we shouldn't jump into conclusion of it is "supernatural", there are many phenomena we don't even know their causes, well maybe super-natural is a good word just maybe.

Oh really?
Tell me then, what's your hypothesis for a case of SS turning to AA after the sufferer attends a packed crusade?

Ranchhoddas:
Know any on here?

They don't, they just deny. Thunder and lightening are phenomena that are constant. They are expected whenever there is rain.
I am talking about things like verified faith healing, reversal of genotypes upon prayer or laying of hands.

Oh really?
Tell me then, what's your hypothesis for a case of SS turning to AA after the sufferer attends a packed crusade?

There are several supernatural or paranormal phenomena that haven't explained in the conventional sciences.

But I think Nigeria's moribund health sector could be responsible for the cases you mentioned here. I have a first-hand experience of this changing genotype issue, will give more explanation later.

gensteejay:

There are several supernatural or paranormal phenomena that haven't explained in the conventional sciences.

But I think Nigeria's moribund health sector could be responsible for the cases you mentioned here. I have a first-hand experience of this changing genotype issue, will give more explanation later.

Santa be praised
I am eager to read your explanation.

Ranchhoddas:
Know any on here?

Nope. Saw their comments on another site like that.

They don't, they just deny. Thunder and lightening are phenomena that are constant. They are expected whenever there is rain.
I am talking about things like verified faith healing, reversal of genotypes upon prayer or laying of hands.

Thunder and lightning has been associated to supernatural in the past, not only thunder, rain, tornado etc because they cannot be explain then.

Verified faith of healing? Care to share the story?

Oh really?
Tell me then, what's your hypothesis for a case of SS turning to AA after the sufferer attends a packed crusade?

I have not seen one before, care to share?

Are they been investigated?

I used to think you're irreligious or was I wrong?

Ranchhoddas:
Santa be praised
I am eager to read your explanation.

lol. Troll

tintingz:
Nope. Saw their comments on another site like that.

Okay

Thunder and lightning has been associated to supernatural in the past, not only thunder, rain, tornado etc because they cannot be explain then.

I understand this. Not what I mean.

Verified faith of healing? Care to share the story?

I have not seen one before, care to share?

Mr A was born with sickle cell. One day he accompanies his elder sister to Reinhard Bonke's crusade and falls on the ground during the ministration. He senses that something about him has changed and the next day he goes to a lab for checkups. He is tested and told he is AA. He does not believe, he goes to two other labs and gets the same result. This is a condition he has had to manage all his life. He is 25. How do I ignore this?

Are they been investigated?

I used to think you're irreligious or am I wrong?

Have you investigated any yourself?

I am irreligious. I just cannot pretend not to see some strange happenings in the name of irreligiousity.

Ranchhoddas:
Okay

I understand this. Not what I mean.

Ok, hope you're not committing post hoc fallacy.

Mr A was born with sickle cell. One day he accompanies his elder sister to Reinhard Bonke's crusade and falls on the ground during the ministration. He senses that something about him has changed and the next day he goes to a lab for checkups. He is tested and told he is AA. He does not believe, he goes to two other labs and gets the same result. This is a condition he has had to manage all his life. He is 25. How do I ignore this?

You don't expect me or someone rational to just accept, did you follow it up?

There might be possibilities of genotype change through transfusion or so, I just don't know but saying it's some miracle is a fallacy.

Have you investigated any yourself?

I have not witnessed any before.

I am irreligious. I just cannot pretend not to see some strange happenings in the name of irreligiousity.

Even scientists know there are strange things but they just don't associate it to some supernatural.

tintingz:
Ok, hope you're not committing post hoc fallacy.

You just made me remember KingEbukasblog. Where that guy dey self?

You don't expect me or someone rational to just accept, did you follow it up?

No I did not. These people have no reason to lie. At least none that I can see.

There might be possibilities of genotype change through transfusion or so, I just don't know but saying it's some miracle is a fallacy.

No make me laugh abeg. Dem dey do transfusion for church?

I have not witnessed any before.

Even scientists know there are strange things but they just don't associate it to some supernatural.

Which scientists do you speak of?

Seun:
I guess the main problem with the atheist position is its unpopularity.

We can fix that by engaging religious people in constructive conversations more often. Helping them to see that not only is there no good reason to believe that any God or gods exists, but that we can have better morals, success, happiness, health, family lives, etc in our societies without believing in any God or gods.

Bro I'm still waiting on you or your team for a response.

Ranchhoddas:
You just made me remember KingEbukasblog. Where that guy dey self?

He is still on leave.

No I did not. These people have no reason to lie. At least none that I can see.

You didn't follow it up, how did you know it was not staged?

No make me laugh abeg. Dem dey do transfusion for church?

The person might have history of transfusion in the past.

Which scientists do you speak of?

Scientists in general, some causes of phenomena are term unknown by scientists do you see them associating it to supernatural?

The cause of "yawning" is still unknown, is it supernatural?

They believe these phenomena can be explain later in the future instead of filling the gap with "supernatural".

johnydon22:
What would in your own opinion constitute a sufficient eviddnce towards the existence of God(s)?

lol

Ogbeni if there was a supreme we'd know by now

johnydon22:
You'll see.

Actually a world without negativity is such a world.

In fact too hot or too cold weather is an existential threat to anything.

Lack of these things are bad thus the purpose behind trying to acquire them. Savvy?

And if i am to make a philosophical stretch of this question then it would go like so: Without desire, lack loses it effect, so the very bad in lack derives strength in our desire. If we do not have the desire, we would be unaffected by lack therefore, desire is the fundamental wrong of lack.

You are lumping objects with their potential to be misused or to create bad situations. Thats a bad argument. You are saying that because lack exacerbates desire then removing desire gets rid of lack, that is putting the cart before the horse. How about we remove lack and leave desire intact. Then you are free to have all your desires without lack. That IMO is much better solution than removing desire or any other thing just because it has the potential to be in a bad situation.

A world devoid of bad is purposely dead.

What is there to desire when everything is there? Would you desire life in a world where you can't die? Would you desire food in a world your belly is always filled up? Would you desire pleasure if you don't know pain is? What is happiness if you do not know what sadness is.

Desire do not exist without lack.
Would you desire money if you had an infinite wealth?

Desire and lack are very separate concepts. Desire is a the longing to fulfil a need or want and even after being fulfilled that desire still potentially exists. Lack is the absence of the object that will fulfill a desire. Desire does not cease even when an abundance of fulfilling objects are present.

One thing is at any particular time in the presence of an abundance of all fulfilling objects not all desires are being fulfilled. For example you have a harem of every type of desirable woman food and drink of every type and taste, entertainment and very other thing you desire. There is no way you will be eating, drinking, watch television, read book, listen to music, have sex, talk to friends, indulge your hobby, etc all at the same time. No matter how many groups of things you do at any moment there others you can't do. Therefore there must remain a desire.

Anoher thing is satisfaction is usually temporary. Nobody remains satisfied forever. Desires are always temporarily satiated.

purpose comes with a goal

and the very purpose of life is to not die, it makes sense that in a universe where life is in an incessant threat of annihilation, an intrinsic purpose to life becomes inevitable.

I posit that if we lived in a universe that did not constantly threaten to annihilate us we would seek other ways to drive ourselves. Take for example the difference between religious theists and atheists, the former asserts that purpose is to serve a god or gods while the latter denies. Does it mean atheist can no longer find purpose for life because they no longer think worshipping a god is not a purpose they ascribe to? Any universe into which we evolve will provide its own linchpins for purpose.

Remove hunger, remove want, remove lack, remove need - there is absolutely no reason you, i or anyone would get up in the morning and plunge into struggle.

If there was no suffering in poverty, why bother be rich?

It is in the negative parts of life that we formulate a purpose to live.

Life without negative aspect of existence lacks the very foundation for meaning.

think about your perfect world.

This just lumps everything with no regard for discerning what is can be categorized as bad/evil. Desire is not bad, temperature difference is not bad, these are some of the factors that enable one to appreciate things like icecream or a chilled drink. Do you need to taste shit in other to appreciate the taste of icecream?

Evil/bad is NOT necessary, it forms a part of our experience does not mean we will lose anything substantial if it doesn't exist.

Ranchhoddas:
Santa be praised
I am eager to read your explanation.

Some of my family members have done genotype and blood group determination tests in a couple of hospitals and got different results without undergoing a bone marrow transplant procedure or attending a crusade, or similar staged shows.

There is nothing paranormal there as ill-equipped Nigerian hospitals and personnel, such as lab technicians, occasionally commit errors and mistakes in carrying out genotype and blood group determination procedures.

For this reason, some people would advise you to check your genotype and blood group in a general or government-owned hospital, and not private ones, and that it should be done more than once.

If you read threads related to genotype determination tests on Nairaland, you would see comments of people that got different genotypes and blood groups from different hospitals.

So, what you described could have been caused by mistakes or errors from the personnel that did the tests.

LordReed:


Evil/bad is NOT necessary, it forms a part of our experience does not mean we will lose anything substantial if it doesn't exist.

When is something said to be "bad/evil" or "good" in your view as an atheist?

hahn:


Ogbeni if there was a supreme we'd know by now

How?

gensteejay:

When is something said to be "bad/evil" or "good" in your view as an atheist?

My basic frame of reference is wellbeing. Things that enhance or support wellbeing are good while those that diminish it are bad.

LordReed:


My basic frame of reference is wellbeing. Things that enhance or support wellbeing are good while those that diminish it are bad.

OK. I am sure you have taken meat today or at least in the last 7 days. Meats are got when we, humans, kill animals. And killing cows, rams, turkeys, chickens, etc. is not regarded as evil by humans, but is seen as normal or a necessity.

But how do these livestocks and animals we kill every day see our action? They see it as evil, which is clear with the belligerent or fearful manner some of them act when they see us.

Good and bad are relative. They are a necessity in our world of duality.

gensteejay:

Some of my family members have done genotype and blood group determination tests in a couple of hospitals and got different results without undergoing a bone marrow transplant procedure or attending a crusade, or similar staged shows.

There is nothing paranormal there as ill-equipped Nigerian hospitals and personnel, such as lab technicians, typically commit errors and mistakes in carrying out genotype and blood group determination procedures.

For this reason, some people would advise you to check your genotype and blood group in a general or government-owned hospital, and not private ones, and that it should be done more than once.

If you read threads related to genotype determination tests on Nairaland, you would see comments of people that got different genotypes and blood groups from different hospitals.

So, what you described could have been caused by mistakes or errors from the personnel that did the tests.

So someone who has been battling the disease for over two decades, has suffered several crises, takes Niprisan on a regular basis, suddenly has no need for any medication immediately after a church service; a service which he fell to the ground without any prompting was improperly diagnosed.

Improper diagnosis? That's your conclusion. I don hear you.

Ranchhoddas:
So someone who has been battling the disease for over two decades, has suffered several crises, takes Niprisan on a regular basis, suddenly has no need for any medication immediately after a church service; a service which he fell to the ground without any prompting was improperly diagnosed.

Improper diagnosis? That's your conclusion. I don hear you.

OK. There are many of such fake claims of miracles made by religious leaders and followers of Christianity, Islam, ATR, etc. in Nigeria.

People even attribute age-related medical issues, like prostrate enlargement, which typically affect older men to one spiritual affliction or the other; and instead of seeking medical care they would be killing rams for prayer and sacrifice, and seeking deliverance from demons that don't exist.

And when a doctor finally proffers a solution to the problem, they would attribute the feat to the prayer they made to their god or Jesus, or a crusade they attended.