gensteejay:

OK. I am sure you have taken meat today or at least in the last 7 days. Meats are got when we, humans, kill animals. And killing cows, rams, turkeys, chickens, etc. is not regarded as evil by humans, but is seen as normal or a necessity.

But how do these livestocks and animals we kill every day see our action? They see it as evil, which is clear with the belligerent or fearful manner some of them act when they see us.

Good and bad are relative. They are a necessity in our world of duality.

Lucky for us we are at a point in our technological development where we can eliminate killing animals for meat. When that is achieved can you tell me how that would still make that "bad" treatment necessary?

[quote author=LordReed post=74324385]

Lucky for us we are at a point in our technological development where we can eliminate killing animals for meat. When that is achieved can you tell me how that would still make that "bad" treatment necessary?

LordReed:


Lucky for us we are at a point in our technological development where we can eliminate killing animals for meat. When that is achieved can you tell me how that would still make that "bad" treatment necessary?

The "settings" for existence are absurd. Science can't do much about that and religion only validates that.

LordReed:


Lucky for us we are at a point in our technological development where we can eliminate killing animals for meat. When that is achieved can you tell me how that would still make that "bad" treatment necessary?

Lol. Interesting notion.

How do you think that can be achieved? Despite killing animals, there is still no food security in the world as over 800 million people are under-nourished in the world today, according to the UN.

How then will there will be food security in the world if meat consumption, sustained by killing of animals, is abolished? That possibility is clearly unreliastic.

Apart from food, we also produce our wears and several other things from dairy resources.

I could also give many examples of things we do that we see as normal but are regarded as evil or bad by other biotic components of this planet's ecosystems.

Seun:
I guess the main problem with the atheist position is its unpopularity.

We can fix that by engaging religious people in constructive conversations more often. Helping them to see that not only is there no good reason to believe that any God or gods exists, but that we can have better morals, success, happiness, health, family lives, etc in our societies without believing in any God or gods.

Seun one question abeg. If God or gods doesnt exit, then what exit?

gensteejay:

Lol. Interesting notion.

How do you think that can be achieved? Despite killing animals, there is still no food security in the world as over 800 million people are under-nourished in the world today, according to the UN.

How then will there will be food security in the world if meat consumption, sustained by killing of animals, is abolished? That possibility is clearly unreliastic.

Apart from food, we also produce our wears and several other things from dairy resources.

I could also give many examples of things we do that we see as normal but are regarded as evil or bad by other biotic components of this planet's ecosystems.

You just shifted the goal post. Can you tell me how the evil of killing animals for meat will continue to be necessary when we eliminate the need for it via technology.

HellVictorinho:


The "settings" for existence are absurd. Science can't do much about that and religion only validates that.

Of course but lucky for us science and technology seems to be unrelenting in proposing solutions instead of throwing our hands in the air and saying god did it so it must remain so.

LordReed:


You just shifted the goal post. Can you tell me how the evil of killing animals for meat will continue to be necessary when eliminate the need for it via technology.

I can't believe you can actually imagine yourself eating any other thing except meat.That's not fair to your system,right? How about eliminating the need for consuming plants? They are living things just like us,right?

LordReed:


You just shifted the goal post. Can you tell me how the evil of killing animals for meat will continue to be necessary when we eliminate the need for it via technology.

Which goal post are you talking about? I gave killing of animals as an example of "good" and "bad" things, and am sure you know that.


Arguing with dogmatic people is usually a waste of time. They only argue for the mere sake of it and for defending their belief.

LordReed:


You just shifted the goal post. Can you tell me how the evil of killing animals for meat will continue to be necessary when we eliminate the need for it via technology.

I asked you a question when you first made that highlighted statement and I would do that again — what techniques are being proposed or developed by food scientists and technologists to eradicate taking organic food, like meat?

HellVictorinho:


I can't believe you can actually imagine yourself eating any other thing except meat.That's not fair to your system,right? How about eliminating the need for consuming plants? They are living things just like us,right?

I don't think you know what I am referring to. I am not referring to eliminating the need to eat meat I am referring to eliminating the need to KILL ANIMALS for meat. Same could potentially be extended to plant life.

gensteejay:

Which goal post are you talking about? I gave killing of animals as an example of "good" and "bad" things, and am sure you know that.


Arguing with dogmatic people is usually a waste of time. They only argue for the mere sake of it and for defending their belief.

Wow where is this passive aggressive attitude coming from? What did I write that has your heckles up?

If the need for killing animals for meat is eliminated, what is still then necessary to kill animals for meat necessary for? Its a simple question, when you answer it we can then move to any other issue you want to discuss.

gensteejay:

I asked you a question when you first made that highlighted statement and I would do that again — what techniques are being proposed or developed by food scientists and technologists to eradicate taking organic food, like meat?

That is not what I am talking about. The technology is not eliminating the need for meat it is eliminating the need to KILL ANIMALS for meat.

LordReed:


That is not what I am talking about. The technology is not eliminating the need for meat it is eliminating the need to KILL ANIMALS for meat.

OK. This kind of argument is tiring. Good luck with your utopian notions.

gensteejay:

OK. This kind of argument is tiring. Good luck with your utopian notions.

LMFAO! SMH

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

Na wa o!

LordReed:


I don't think you know what I am referring to. I am not referring to eliminating the need to eat meat I am referring to eliminating the need to KILL ANIMALS for meat. Same could potentially be extended to plant life.

You didn't get me either. And the "meat" you might get by science won't be the same as the one you consume now. Plants are exposed to attack/disturbance by almost every human/animal as well as unfavourable natural events.And science can't really help that.It's even making it easier for humans to damage the vegetations at will.But guess what? The earth can't become Venus or Saturn.Our presence keeps some organisms/certain features of this planet ever-existent.

HellVictorinho:


You didn't get me either. And the "meat" you might get by science won't be the same as the one you consume now. Plants are exposed to attack/disturbance by almost every human/animal as well as unfavourable natural events.And science can't really help that.It's even making it easier for humans to damage the vegetations at will.But guess what? The earth can't become Venus or Saturn.Our presence keeps some organisms/certain features of this planet ever-existent.

So we should just accept our situation and propose no solutions because evil is necessary? Is that your argument?

Nwaikuku2:
Seun one question abeg. If God or gods doesnt exit, then what exit?

You exist or shall I say "exit"

gensteejay:

Which goal post are you talking about? I gave killing of animals as an example of "good" and "bad" things, and am sure you know that.


Arguing with dogmatic people is usually a waste of time. They only argue for the mere sake of it and for defending their belief.

I agree with you that killing of animals can be good or bad. I think people who see eating of meat as a bad thing should be ignored. No one is beyond nature and it is natural that certain species be carnivorous to survive and be healthy. Until there is a technology that perfectly replaces meat and everyone has access to such technology and can afford it then I am eating my isi ewu.

Ranchhoddas:
So someone who has been battling the disease for over two decades, has suffered several crises, takes Niprisan on a regular basis, suddenly has no need for any medication immediately after a church service; a service which he fell to the ground without any prompting was improperly diagnosed.

Improper diagnosis? That's your conclusion. I don hear you.

Do you know this individual in person? Is he a friend, family or an aquintance? He was a sickler for 25 years and suddenly got healed by falling down in a church service? Did you observe it happen? They have no reason to lie? Isn't if the same thing people the do IVF tell others? They'll swear that it was their God that gave them the baby and people will say they have no reason to lie. My aunt did it. Her husband is pastor, they had their twins through IVF like 10 years ago when it wasn't evenough popular in Nigeria and swore to who ever cared to listen that it was God. And many believed they had no reason to lie.

LordReed:


LMFAO! SMH

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultured_meat

Na wa o!

It's a futuristic technique. Cultured meat and its production techniques are not new. It has its benefits and downsides, just like several other technologies in the world.

And like other techniques and technologies, it will need to make use of some parts of nature (depending on your frame of reference, some of these will be "bad" or "good" ) at certain stages.

There is a plethora of things we see as good in Nigeria, for instance, that are regarded as bad in other climes. The same analogy applies to animals, microbes, etc.

For instance, a mosquito that bites a person or a microbe that infects them is only feeding, which is a good and natural activity as far as it's concerned but to us, such an action is seen as bad or unhealthy to us.


I wish you good luck in your desire for an utopian world.

LordReed:


So we should just accept our situation and propose no solutions because evil is necessary? Is that your argument?

"Evil" is just a word.We have to improve ourselves(by critical thinking) and develop our environment (by making decisions carefully) so that our days on earth shall be more enjoyable. Humans don't have to fight themselves to remain humans. Practical Wisdom is priceless.

johnydon22:
How?

It would be evident

Ranchhoddas:
So someone who has been battling the disease for over two decades, has suffered several crises, takes Niprisan on a regular basis, suddenly has no need for any medication immediately after a church service; a service which he fell to the ground without any prompting was improperly diagnosed.

Improper diagnosis? That's your conclusion. I don hear you.

I was once at a meeting at a friend of mine where they were discussing what to do with a destitute woman and her three children in their church.

TBJ had healed her husband of hiv. The man was so grateful, he gave TBJ a house in gratitude and stopped taking his medication. He then fell ill and was rushed to the doctor who found out he'd stopped taking his medication. "You stupid man" doctor said, "do you not know this medication is what stops you from falling ill and dying?" And doctor put him back on medication and man got better, and went back to TBJ to tell him what had happened.

"O you of little faith" said TBJ, and 'cured' the man again of hiv and the man gave him a second house in gratitude. But soon after not taking his medication he fell ill again and was rushed to the doctor who put him back on drugs and he got better, again.

When he had recovered, he went back to TBJ and TBJ cured him again and told him to have more faith, and he gave TBJ his final and last house. And when he fell ill, he refused to go to the doctor and refused his medication because finally, we was having faith.

The meeting I was at were of the Catholic Church he'd always attended and where he had left his destitute wife and children because he had had faith in TBJ and given him his three houses and had died!

gensteejay:

It's a futuristic technique. Cultured meat and its production techniques are not new. It has its benefits and downsides, just like several other technologies in the world.

And like other techniques and technologies, it will need to make use of some parts of nature (depending on your frame of reference, some of these will be "bad" or "good" ) at certain stages.

There is a plethora of things we see as good in Nigeria, for instance, that are regarded as bad in other climes. The same analogy applies to animals, microbes, etc.

For instance, a mosquito that bites a person or a microbe that infects them is only feeding, which is a good and natural activity as far as it's concerned but to us, such an action is seen as bad or unhealthy to us.


I wish you good luck in your desire for an utopian world.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying proposing and executing solutions to our bads and evils is unwarranted? That we should accept our condition and live with the good and bad because bad is necessary?

HellVictorinho:


"Evil" is just a word.We have to improve ourselves(by critical thinking) and develop our environment (by making decisions carefully) so that our days on earth shall be more enjoyable. Humans don't have to fight themselves to remain humans. Practical Wisdom is priceless.

Then I don't understand your objection. This is a solution to an "evil" and you seem to be saying it is no good. If you agree that we should improve ourselves then how does eliminating the need to kill animals fall outside of your parameters?

LordReed:


I don't understand your point. Are you saying proposing and executing solutions to our bads and evils is unwarranted? That we should accept our condition and live with the good and bad because bad is necessary?

Of course not. I will comment on this later.

LordReed:


Then I don't understand your objection. This is a solution to an "evil" and you seem to be saying it is no good. If you agree that we should improve ourselves then how does eliminating the need to kill animals fall outside of your parameters?

Do you really desire such "meat"? And what do you think about the millions of micro-organisms that are killing humans? Are you saying there shouldn't be a food-chain?And do we really have to correct reality? I think surviving it makes more sense.

budaatum:

I was once at a meeting at a friends of mine where they were discussing what to do with a destitute woman and her three children in their church.

TBJ had healed her husband of hiv. The man was so grateful, he gave TBJ a house in gratitude and stopped taking his medication. He then fell ill and was rushed to the doctor who found out he'd stopped taking his medication. "You stupid man" doctor said, "do you not know this medication is what stops you from falling ill and dying?" And doctor put him back on medication and man got better, and went back to TBJ to tell him what had happened.

"O you of little faith" said TBJ, and 'cured' the man again of hiv and the man gave him a second house in gratitude. But soon after not taking his medication he fell ill again and was rushed to the doctor who put him back on drugs and he got better, again.

When he had recovered, he went back to TBJ and TBJ cured him again and told him to have more faith, and he gave TBJ his final and last house. And when he fell ill, he refused to go to the doctor and refused his medication because finally, we was having faith.

The meeting I was at were of the Catholic Church he'd always attended and where he had left his destitute wife and children because he had had faith in TBJ and given him his three houses and had died!

TBJ is a fraud.
This changes nothing. Like you, I am wary of people who claim to be men of God. But what I am saying is the number of cases of healings that we witness gives me reason to believe there is something to them. It is logistically impossible for all of them to be staged. It is also unreasonable to say that this people have what you like to call false healing.
Instead of dismissing, you should take your time to visit this places and follow up their cases if you have the time and resources.
This makes more sense to me than staying at home and dismissing this cases without even giving a thought.
I am certain that many sick people get healed at churches. The mechanism of their healing is what I am unsure of.
There is no way I will believe that the multitude that go to these places are idiots. Something is taking them there.

dalaman:


Do you know this individual in person? Is he a friend, family or an aquintance? He was a sickler for 25 years and suddenly got healed by falling down in a church service? Did you observe it happen? They have no reason to lie? Isn't if the same thing people the do IVF tell others? They'll swear that it was their God that gave them the baby and people will say they have no reason to lie. My aunt did it. Her husband is pastor, they had their twins through IVF like 10 years ago when it wasn't evenough popular in Nigeria and swore to who ever cared to listen that it was God. And many beloved they had no reason to lie.

No I don't. But I have no reason to believe they are lying. And I am not gullible or anything.
Tell me, what would be their motive? The motives of not just one, two, or three people. Many people with different cases of healing.
Oyakhilome's healing school has being going on for years. Do you really want to tell me that no single sick person has being healed for years and it still going on? No one?

Of course they may be cases of fake miracles, what it means is that not everyone gets healed for some reason or the other. My argument is that some people get miracle cures from religious places. Clear cut medicine-defying miracles that will be visible to any honest and impartial observer.
I am not sure why they happen. But they happen.

To the unbeliever, no proof is enough

Ranchhoddas:
No I don't. But I have no reason to believe they are lying. And I am not gullible or anything.
Tell me, what would be their motive? The motives of not just one, two, or three people. Many people with different cases of healing.
Oyakhilome's healing school has being going on for years. Do you really want to tell me that no single sick person has being healed for years and it still going on? No one?

Of course they may be cases of fake miracles, what it means is that not everyone gets healed for some reason or the other. My argument is that some people get miracle cures from religious places. Clear cut medicine-defying miracles that will be visible to any honest and impartial observer.
I am not sure why they happen. But they happen.

To the unbeliever, no proof is enough

Lol. The fact that christ embassy healing school and other faith healing programmes go on for years should be a clear demonstration on how great human gullibility, stupidity and bias are not the legitimacy of miracles. A lot of people have spoken about the scam of christ embassy healing schools but their voices have been drowned by blw sheeps and their organisation.

Psychic shops have been on for years, those it mean there is something legitimate about it?

HellVictorinho:


Do you really desire such "meat"? And what do you think about the millions of micro-organisms that are killing humans? Are you saying there shouldn't be a food-chain?And do we really have to correct reality? I think surviving it makes more sense.

The short answer is yes, it is still meat but of course I expect that by the time it is commercially available it would be very palatable both in taste and nutrition.

Some microorganisms are good some are bad, the bad ones should be eliminated.

Correct reality? I don't see it that way. I see it as eliminating those things that would otherwise lessen wellbeing.