shadeyinka:

Really!?
Even Phycologists perform measurements having nothing to do with the physical. Or tell me, is it impossible to determine when a person is obviously angry? What instrument do you use?

Haven't you just exposed the fact that physical instruments are obviously limited. Now, you think it is wisdom to superimpose physical instrumentation over that which is not physical?

If God was presented as physical, you have a point. But if not, it's like attempting to use a voltmeter to measure length. I can't work!





See you!

What is natural!?
Are they not things that operate according to the known laws?
If I could duplicate a computer without having to build it with components: that would be unnatural. If I could jump up and fly to the moon unaided, that would be unnatural.

You want to still insist that the Mystery behind the initiation of the Universe must just operate according to the physical laws. Humble yourself just a little and your eyes will open.

... unknown/unexplained is not equal to god did it! BUT SOMETHING did it! Something that was not CAUSED but can CHANGE things. That SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws neither is it subject to it.

We call that something God (the Uncaused first-cause of everything).

If that SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws, why do you seek EVIDENCE with natural Tools?

TVSA:
not true, there is hell in Islam. If you do not believe in the messenger(MUHAMMED SAW) of Allah, hell has been prepared for you. QURAN 48:13 and whosoever does not believe in Allah and his messenger, then verily, we have prepared for the disbelievers a blazing fire

shadeyinka:

BUT SOMETHING did it! Something that was not CAUSED but can CHANGE things. That SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws neither is it subject to it.

We call that something God (the Uncaused first-cause of everything).

If that SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws, why do you seek EVIDENCE with natural Tools?

LordReed:


What I see is someone just being deliberately obtuse. Is anger not something you can see physically? Does it it not have physical effects on the body? Can those physical effects not be measured?

Go ahead and demonstrate something unnatural, I will wait.

IAmSabrina:

@bold, this is your problem!

It is simply wrong to make arbitrary assumptions about what God is or is not. You assert that God has no cause simply because you presume to define what God is and that is patently absurd.

You can only define objects of thought and discussion, not objects of reality. If your definition of a real object does not accurately correspond to what the real object is, then you are talking about nothing real and are talking nonsense. Nobody knows what God might be. If perhaps you are relying on the Bible, the Bible clearly says exactly that again and again.

It is astonishing that even deeply learned scholars presume to define something they profess to lack the capacity to adequately comprehend and then proceed to use that fictitious definition to attempt to draw meaningful, even life changing conclusions. Really?

Cc. LordReed, CAPSLOCKED, Martinez39

shadeyinka:

Shouldn't the infinite progression of something leading to something which lead to another Something end at a point?

Even fractals when traced back has a beginning!

Your problem is trying to fit everything under the current laws and the origin of the universe says contrary. Is it possible to unknow whom you have known and have a relationship with? (Except if one's memory is blotted out)



You said: ... unknown/unexplained is not equal to god did it!
BUT SOMETHING did it! Something that was not CAUSED but can CHANGE things. That SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws neither is it subject to it.

What is that SOMETHING?

IAmSabrina:

@bold, this is your problem!

It is simply wrong to make arbitrary assumptions about what God is or is not. You assert that God has no cause simply because you presume to define what God is and that is patently absurd.

You can only define objects of thought and discussion, not objects of reality. If your definition of a real object does not accurately correspond to what the real object is, then you are talking about nothing real and are talking nonsense. Nobody knows what God might be. If perhaps you are relying on the Bible, the Bible clearly says exactly that again and again.

It is astonishing that even deeply learned scholars presume to define something they profess to lack the capacity to adequately comprehend and then proceed to use that fictitious definition to attempt to draw meaningful, even life changing conclusions. Really?

Cc. LordReed, CAPSLOCKED, Martinez39

CAPSLOCKED:



MY MAJOR PROBLEM WITH THESE GUYS IS THAT THEY CLAIM TO BELIEVE THAT THIS "GOD" IS YAHWEH, THE GOD THEY INHERITED FROM THEIR PARENTS AND THEIR NEIGHBORS.

shadeyinka:

I thought you would bring scriptures from everywhere only for just one that doesn't even fit:
Let me answer you by the same Quran you mis-quoted

(Quran2:62)
Indeed, those who have believed [in this Prophet] and those who became Jews and Christians and the Sabians who [truly] believe in God and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past].

(Quran5:69)
Indeed, those who have believed [in this Prophet] and those, who became Jews and Sabians and Christians , who [truly] believe in God and the Day of Judgment and do good deeds, they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past].

IAmSabrina:
Ok, that's it.

Prove it. I'm not taking your word for it. I myself don't know that fractals are finite so enlighten me

IAmSabrina:

The problem is there are so many holes in your argument thus far

a) Mathematically we can formulate infinitely recursive formulae or infinitely divisible/differentiable functions. Are you assertive that reality has no analogue?

IAmSabrina:

b) Your arguments keep reiterating that there is an uncaused cause. All well and good. All we can say now is that there is a first cause. The nature of the first cause and what it entails is all speculation from this point. It doesn't bring you to the idea of a God and in no way does it corroborate with Christianity!

IAmSabrina:
O
c) You assert that this cause is basically personal because it must have shown deliberation in causing the universe. Do you know this? Can you demonstrate it? Could it not also be possible that the uncaused cause had no choice in creating the universe, anymore that my cup of tea has a 'choice' to fall when I lift it off my desk and drop it? You assert deliberate intent, but the creation of the universe could be a natural consequence of the make-up of the uncaused cause. You have not demonstrated deliberate intent and your argument for personality is based on thin air.

IAmSabrina:

d) In your argument you've claimed that 'some things are caused' and that there must be an 'uncaused cause'. Why only one? Why could there not have been many 'uncaused causes' whose consequential movements eventually caused the universe? You have no basis for saying that there is only one 'uncaused cause'. This argument, which allows that for some things to be 'uncaused' also allows for more than one uncaused cause!

In which case there could be many 'Gods' if you want to call them that!

shadeyinka:

I have only picked cases you can relate with: if I had spoken about demons, would you not have scorned it?

What Are those evidences? Can I not act anger and all your test parameter fail? If anger can be measured, should it not be immuned to acting? And what physical equipment would you use.
If I break my racket, does it imply I am angry?

You said: ... unknown/unexplained is not equal to god did it!
BUT SOMETHING did it! Something that was not CAUSED but can CHANGE things. That SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws neither is it subject to it.

What do you have to say about this?

TVSA:
you're the one misquoting the Qur'an.
Islam is a religion that believes in progressive revelation. Those that believe in Moses(Jews) during the time of Moses will go to heaven. those that believe in Jesus during the time of Jesus will go to heaven. But after the coming of Muhammed (SAW) you must believe in Muhammed and neglect other religion because he's the last prophet of Allah. Those verses were talking of believers in the pre-muhammed era.
Check Sahih international version

Quran 2:62 Indeed, those who believed and those who were Jews or Christians or Sabeans [before Prophet Muhammad] - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - will have their reward with their Lord, and no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Quran 5:69 Indeed, those who have believed [in Prophet Muhammad] and those [before Him] who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians - those [among them] who believed in Allah and the Last Day and did righteousness - no fear will there be concerning them, nor will they grieve.

Check the chapter 3 where Qur'an said only those that follow Islam are justified in the afterlife.

Qur'an 3:85 And whoever desires other than Islam as religion - never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers.

shadeyinka:

Really!?
Even Phycologists perform measurements having nothing to do with the physical. Or tell me, is it impossible to determine when a person is obviously angry? What instrument do you use?

Haven't you just exposed the fact that physical instruments are obviously limited. Now, you think it is wisdom to superimpose physical instrumentation over that which is not physical?

If God was presented as physical, you have a point. But if not, it's like attempting to use a voltmeter to measure length. I can't work!





See you!

What is natural!?
Are they not things that operate according to the known laws?
If I could duplicate a computer without having to build it with components: that would be unnatural. If I could jump up and fly to the moon unaided, that would be unnatural.

You want to still insist that the Mystery behind the initiation of the Universe must just operate according to the physical laws. Humble yourself just a little and your eyes will open.

... unknown/unexplained is not equal to god did it! BUT SOMETHING did it! Something that was not CAUSED but can CHANGE things. That SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws neither is it subject to it.

We call that something God (the Uncaused first-cause of everything).

If that SOMETHING doesn't obey the natural laws, why do you seek EVIDENCE with natural Tools?

LordReed:


Of course I would have scorned it because you cannot demonstrate that demons are real.

I don't have time for tedious arguments, just demonstrate this unnatural/spiritual being you call god or any unnatural thing/spirit of any type.

shadeyinka:

Fractals are infinite.
But it grows from a source/point.
We can formulate an infinite regression which starts from a point (an origin). Do infinite regressions just appear out of the blues?

So, what is this FIRST CAUSE?

If you don't have a definite answer then, it is illogical to insist that the FIRST CAUSE isn't GOD

It's just a logical extension of the ORDER in the minutest of things such as the atom, to chemical reactions and periodicity, to laws of physics, chemistry, biology etc.

Do you sincerely believe that entropy can cause order?
A tornado can assemble a house from earth and trees?

How is it possible that a Boeing 737 can assemble itself over endless numbers of years?

Oh!
There could theoretically be several or a union of many BUT it doesn't change anything as far as you and me are concerned. Your stance is that God/gods doesn't exist.

However, I know of only ONE and no other.

Martinez39:
If something is spiritual and cannot be seen or felt, on what basis would one believe in that thing if not by assumption? I could say there is a spiritual unicorn with a rainbow coloured skin and twelve legs, would you believe that or expect anyone to just because the unicorn is spiritual and can't be tested?

Martinez39:

What if what created the universe are simply physical substances that are eternal; have no beginning/origin and they have a property such that certain physical conditions would cause them to explode and yield the big bang? What if such substances are rare and haven’t been discovered and are far away in space beyond our reach? What if these substance had no duplicate elsewhere and can no longer be found since they've been used up in creating our universe? If you think god can exist without begin created then why can't these particles exist without being created?

Martinez39:

My point is that a god is not the only possible way our reality could have come to be. Not only that, your god is an illogical and stupid explanation of the origin of things. If it turns out that there is an intelligent mind behind our origin, what makes you think that such intelligent mind would turn out to be the god of the bible?

No one knows how it all began and there is no logical connection between any religious god and the origin of the universe. It's only with assumptions, faith, stupidity, arrogance and ignorance that one would insist one knows how it all came to be; that a god is behind it; that god is the god of one's holy book and one knows his will.

You have to wake up from this nonsense. You are not getting any younger. Is this how you want to live your life believing and devoting so much to something that isn't real and is very stupid? What sound evidences do you have for your god? None. Mtewwwww. Can you show us SOMETHING that doesn't obey natural laws? You can't.

IAmSabrina:

Like i said, demonstrate......

IAmSabrina:

I would have asked you how the first cause came about but then you'd resort to special pleading

It is even more illogical to not only CONCLUDE its god, but to go ahead and DEFINE said god!

IAmSabrina:

What if the solar system is just going through a phase which happens to be just perfect for us?

Dinosaurs should have thought themselves special millions of years ago. And can you blame them? They were the dominant terrestrial species that roamed the surface of the Earth like there's no end. For about 135 million years Earth was orderly and just perfect for them.

Against the lifetime of this universe and solar system - the entire human history that we estimated from the fossil records, the recorded history after we became a civilized society and average life span of a human being are extremely small and insignificant.

All our assumption that universe and earth is tailor made for humans is just based on the last day of the cosmic calendar! In another few days human species could very well go extinct. As we speak molten lava in our Earth's core is churning the tectonic plates moving them around, they clash once in a while toppling lives, continents move, oceans move, mountains form above lands, mountains get submerged in oceans, climate changes. Nothing is constant. In about 5 billion years if Earth survives the period our Sun will become a red giant and consume it!

The seemingly orderly behavior you're claiming is just one of many random possibilities in the infinitely vast space! Sit back and look at the vast space of the universe, there is NO order!

IAmSabrina:

Cc. Martinez39, LordReed, CAPSLOCKED
[img]https://media1./images/c0e505d31d6e659bfb1329382f03ccb5/tenor.gif[/img]
L.M.F.A.O
Thanks for admitting your ignorance. I know it was hard for you but i guess you couldn't keep deceiving yourself much longer

shadeyinka:


You use your spirit!
Except you are spiritually dead. In that case, I am sorry for you.

How do you explain to a blind man that there are stars seen in the night?

From the Big Bang theory the bolded is negated.
Nothing physical existed before the bang!

What if! What if?

Let me for once agree with you. There is a pin point massless, volumes, chargers UGO (sorry I had to coin a name). Now UGO had existed in the eternal past and then after trillions of earth life, it decided to morph into our universe.

Can't you see that it is either this UGO has a mind of its own or UGO was compelled by an external force to change state!

You don't need to hate this imaginary being called God this much. As far as you are concerned, any other answer will do as long as God is not mentioned.

Whether the creator of the universe is the God of the Bible or not is not your concern. The fact it, there was an Uncaused First Cause and you deny Him.

I think you need to convince us of how a "Boeing 737" can assemble itself if every constituent element is made available!?

See the spiritually blind person who want to SEE SOMETHING! With what eyes are you going to see it?

shadeyinka:

You don't demonstrate Him, you experience Him.

If you can't, it's just an evidence that either you are spiritually BLIND or INFECTED by demonic spirits.

Martinez39:
So you've used your spirit to know if god exists? How did this happen?

I can't and no smart blind man will believe anything just because someone said it.

Martinez39:

You rule out the possible that under those special conditions, these substances converted into energy to cause the big bang? Suppose these substances were the only one of their kind and are lost forever in creating the big bang how would we know there were no particles before the big bang? Seems you are poor at sarcasm.

Martinez39:

That could be true. What if you are accidentally right? Can you prove what you said isn't correct?

Who knows? Could be any. If it's the former, would it be your god? If it's the later, can you prove it isn't so?

On a serious note, I don't hate god. It would be absurd to hate something that doesn't exist. Any explanation for which there is evidence will do. It's not my fault that you can't spot my sarcasm?

You said:
What if what created the universe are simply physical substances that are eternal

Martinez39:

Stupid boy. How do you know it's a "HIM"? Any evidence? How do you know there is an uncaused first cause? Can you demonstrate that? I will accept any explanation of the origin of the universe as long as it is backed up by evidence.

No. Seem a well rounded education will come in handy for you. If you don't know that machines are trained humans are behind it then your case is irredeemable.

What other eyes do humans have apart from there two biological eyes? If there is another eye(s), kindly demonstrate it's existence with evidence?

shadeyinka:

Do you understand your question?
Uncaused-First cause and you are asking me how it came about?

But the statistical odds stacks well against you.

It seems you have some knowledge of biology. Let's assume the earth has no moon, would you think life will exist?

I asked a question, what is the statistical odds that a Boeing 737 can self assemble given a trillion years of causing constituent materials mix together.

Calling for help?

shadeyinka:

Including the blind being told that stars exist...and his answer still remains, "prove it...show me an evidence". I am sorry for you. Living in denial doesn't change a hoot

The same one of a kind God you reject with no spiritual evidence. LOL!

That's too bad if you couldn't get the sarcasm!

I was reacting to your Perceived anger!

See, evidence of spiritual corruption! What the bases of the word stupid boy!

So you think a ship is called a her because a ship has a female reproductive organ!? I can help but wonder!

finalboss:
Stop embarassing yourself, Celestron can do more than that. Bush man. And Try and use something called google

IAmSabrina:

You are trying to establish the fact that "we can't see planets" as proof of your god. ROFSMDHLOL!

Martinez39:
What he is trying to do is this:
>STEP 1 : tell you that you believe in something, say X, without evidence but mere belief.
>STEP 2 : tell you that since you believe in X without evidence then it's okay to believe in his god without evidence.
>STEP 3 : therefore his god exists.

shadeyinka:

Do you see the bolded?
Those in the parentheses show that they were not in the Qur'an. They were inserted by some people to polaris the interpretation.

Why do you think Allah permitted Muslim men to marry Christians, Jews and the Serbians? Is it because they are idolaters?

If you know a little of Islamic eschatology, you will understand that according to Muslims, each believer will stand behind his Prophet.

Unfortunately, if you know a little Islam, you will know that the definition of who a Muslim is is very loose.
Adam, Moses, David, Solomon and even John the Baptist were Muslims. Even though Muslims wouldn't agree, I could pass off as a Muslim.

The Righteousness expected of me as a Christian is far much higher than that of a Muslim. I am even commanded to turn the other cheek.

Spare me your argument.

So, do you have any other scripture from the thousands of god's who promised hell for me?

shadeyinka:



Calling for help?

IAmSabrina:

Exactly! Why and how do you know for certian that the "cause" is "uncaused"

You have the floor...

IAmSabrina:

Yes actually.

The oceans wouldn't stagnate, as strong currents and winds would cause a lot of water movement and pooling. Wave filled pools are not as useful as tidal pools, but they would have stimulated evolution also. The process of evolution might have taken 10 billion years instead of 4, but it still would have happened.

And then this discussion would be about what things might have been like if we did have a Moon!

IAmSabrina:

The comparison you're trying to make here does NOT add up,

the Boeing 737 was made because of discovery and simpler designs that preceded it - the people who worked on it didn't make it in a vacuum, and so, in a sense, evolved in its own way. That would also be obvious to the fellows who saw it.

Why doesn't the same logic apply to living creatures? Beyond that, complexity arises in natural systems all the time.

IAmSabrina:

No help needed. Just needed others to see how funny your last paragraph was in response to my initial argument that produced it.

LordReed:


IAmSabrina doesn't need help, she has already dismantled your arguments. I marvel at her patience honestly.

TVSA:
are you a Muslim? Have you studied the hadiths and the Qur'an? Why are you arguing as if you know so much about Islam. let me quote this for you

The criterion to go to Jannat (heaven) in Islam is given in The Qur’an 103 Verse no 1–3:

By time,
Indeed, mankind is in loss,
Except for those who have believed and done righteous deeds and advised each other to truth and advised each other to patience.

So the criterion to Go to Jannah are four.

Iman (faith)
Righteous deeds
Daw’a (Delivering the message of Islam and if possible, inviting others)
Advice patience.
Faith includes worshiping Allah and associating no partners with him.

Even if the points 2,3 and 4 are satisfied by the non Muslim, he’ll go to the hell because he had no faith. He committed Shirk.

Moreover, it is mentioned in the Quran, in Surah al Nisa: Chapter 4:48 and 4:116, that Allah will forgive any sin if he pleases, but the Sin of shirk (Shirk is associating partners with God), he will never forgive.

Al Nisa 4:48:

Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin.

Al Nisa 4:116:

Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray.

So, according to the Islamic terminology, every non Muslim, regardless of what righteous deeds he has done, regardless of what charity he gave, will Go to Hell.


And why do you think a Christian will ever go to a Muslim heaven? . Calling Jesus God is one of the gravest sins in islam. Allah is too jealous to be associated with anybody as God. This is written all over the Qur'an

shadeyinka:


What of the other gods?
It seems I'm in danger of only Allah's hell!?

Calculate 1/3000

LOL!

Martinez39:
Lol. The blind guy is no living in denial. He can't believe something he is not sure of or something that can't be proven to him. You don't expect to say, with certainty, that a handkerchief is blue because you told him so.

Sarcasm and comprehension are your weak points. Those substances in my sarcastic proposition have seized to exist after being used up in creating the big bang. The same is not for god since he allegedly lives on and mor0ns on earth can know that he exists. If there is no evidence for god, I won't believe in your god. According to you, your god is a certainty and not a proposition so where is the evidence?

Martinez39:


SMH. The irony.


So your first cause is called a "HIM"? You need to go to school to know how to use the English language. A horrible attempt at changing your narrative.