TVSA:
Going by your logic, I am in danger of only two hells. so what is the difference between us.

No!
You brought in the idea of 3000 gods=3000 hell

Stick with your rules except if it was a deliberate misinformation!

shadeyinka:

No!
You brought in the idea of 3000 gods=3000 hell

Stick with your rules except if it was a deliberate misinformation!

what are you saying? I only argued for islam. Where did I say there are 3000 hell?

TVSA:
what are you saying? I only argued for islam. Where did I say there are 3000 hell?

I probably mixed you up with sonmvayina:

shadeyinka:

That's the point.
A blind man needn't agree that stars exist in the heavenliness neither should he agree that a handkerchief is blue.

However, it is ridiculous for a blind man to insist that their is no star nor the handkerchief isn't blue for he has no bases to judge.

So is your case.

Can a blind man touch colour blue or can he smell the stars?

Lol. In your case, YOU can't prove that your god exists or provide evidence for his existence. A sound analysis of the bible and it's comparison with historical and archaeological evidences shows your god is a made up idea and can't exist. I say again, YOU, and I mean YOU, do not have any sound evidence for the existence of your god.

At least in the case of the blind man, the person describing the star can see the star but for you, you don't even have any evidence or logical basis for the existence of your god.

What an irony!
Your own first cause might be an IT!
And your country an IT!
If you like, you can use IT for yourself!

Before we talk now, he would say it's sarcasm! SMH

I have no first cause and I made that clear. As I have said, any explanation for which there is evidence will be accepted by me. I don't go running behind sarcasm all the time. It's not my fault that you can't spot obvious sarcasm.

Martinez39:
Lol. In your case, YOU can't prove that your god exists or provide evidence for his existence. A sound analysis of the bible and it's comparison with historical and archaeological evidences shows your god is a made up idea and can't exist. I say again, YOU, and I mean YOU, do not have any sound evidence for the existence of your god.

At least in the case of the blind man, the person describing the star can see the star but for you, you don't even have any evidence or logical basis for the existence of your god.


I have no first cause and I made that clear. As I have said, any explanation for which there is evidence will be accepted by me. I don't go running behind sarcasm all the time. It's not my fault that you can't spot obvious sarcasm.

Everything about you sarcasm!
How can anyone trust what comes out of your heart.

By you spirit, you know God.
If your spirit is dead, seek for solution and stop arguing like an optically blind person. In your case treat your spiritual blindness and then you'll see

shadeyinka:

Everything about you sarcasm!
How can anyone trust what comes out of your heart.

By your spirit, you know God.
If your spirit is dead, seek for solution and stop arguing like an optically blind person. In your case treat your spiritual blindness and then you'll see

Man has a spirit? Any proof of that? I believe that if god can appear to pagans in the bible who didn't acknowledge him then he can appear to any atheist. If god can't reach me except I reach him then he is limited or not serious at all as an all powerful being.

If an all powerful being can't show himself without me using of my spiritual eyes then I don't think he should be taken seriously. He doesn't even need to show himself, let him restore an amputated limb. Let's start from there.

Martinez39:
Man has a spirit? Any proof of that? I believe that if god can appear to pagans in the bible who didn't acknowledge him then he can appear to any atheist. If god can't reach me except I reach him then he is limited or not serious at all as an all powerful being.

If an all powerful being can't show himself without me using of my spiritual eyes then I don't think he should be taken seriously. He doesn't even need to show himself, let him restore an amputated limb. Let's start from there.

Oh yes!
When you cut open a human being, some red fluid will come out. That's your soul
I clap for you!
What a challenge?

Are you done?

I wish you first tried it with Bihari. "If you know you are really the president of Nigeria, flex your muscles I want to see"!

shadeyinka:

Oh yes!
When you cut open a human being, some red fluid will come out. That's your soul
I clap for you!
What a challenge?

Are you done?

I wish you first tried it with Bihari. "If you know you are really the president of Nigeria, flex your muscles I want to see"!

Lol. SMH. Good day.

LordReed:


IAmSabrina doesn't need help, she has already dismantled your arguments. I marvel at her patience honestly.

The guy is a complete rεtard. He desperately wants to remain deluded.

shadeyinka:

The problem of infinite progression

Tachyons
Retrocausality
A lot of these ideas are theoretical and philosophical, but it seems every few months a physics article pops up with new evidence that time and cause and effect don't always work how we think they do.

Even if I subscribed to your argument, the first cause (of time and matter) could be anything. I still don't see how it says anything at all about a god.

In other words, the presence of the moon aided evolution even though it looks insignificant but it is part of the design.

Your point here is....?

It's the same logic.
You could have started with how high temperature in the presence of coal reduced iron and aluminium from its or to pure metals over billions of years. Through trials and error, bicycles were first made, then bicycles morphed into motorcycles which also morphed into cars and them over many more billions of years: wings came up with propeller engines which evolved into jet engines.

....If anything you're arguing for evolution here, which goes against the creationism doctrine of Christianity!

Usually, when you are confounded, you resort to ridicule and false intellectual superiority. It's a common tactic and I am used to it

First of all, confounded? Lol. You're the one repeating "infinite progression" and "first cause" like a broken record.

Second of all, disgraceful strawman!

Shadeyinka, you don't know sh!t about how i argue. Your post amused me and i just had to laugh. Laughter is a common human expression. And if you think i was ridiculing you, i can't help but ROFLOL!

Ask people like Martinez39 what i actually look like when i'm ridiculing someone....

Lemme stop there before you say i'm abusing you now

Martinez39:
The guy is a complete rεtard. He desperately wants to remain deluded.

LoL, anyone who doesn't agree with him is demon possessed. What a load of crap.

LordReed:


LoL, anyone who doesn't agree with him is demon possessed. What a load of crap.

That's how they behave. I remember my uncle having problems with the noise a nearby church and their loud speakers were generating. When he confronted them in anger threatening to call the police or whoever, he just made it worse because the church members thought the demon in him was reacting to their acidic prayers so they continued and increased the tempo .

IAmSabrina:

Lol

You've got to be kidding me...

why don't you believe in God?

Martinez39:
That's how they behave. I remember my uncle having problems with the noise a nearby church and their loud speakers were generating. When he confronted them in anger threatening to call the police or whoever, he just made it worse because the church members thought the demon in him was reacting to their acidic prayers so they continued and increased the tempo .

Damn! What a terrible situation to be in.

shadeyinka:

No!
You brought in the idea of 3000 gods=3000 hell

Stick with your rules except if it was a deliberate misinformation!

So because of book wey oyinbo give you, nah him make all your sense run leave you... It is so sad oh.. You go dey fall mugu well well oh.

shadeyinka:

I probably mixed you up with sonmvayina:

How do you tell if.somebody is lying to you or not... Do you believe every story you hear or read?

IAmSabrina:

Tachyons
Retrocausality
A lot of these ideas are theoretical and philosophical, but it seems every few months a physics article pops up with new evidence that time and cause and effect don't always work how we think they do.

Even if I subscribed to your argument, the first cause (of time and matter) could be anything. I still don't see how it says anything at all about a god.

True.
But all still remain complex theory and mathematical speculations. Our mathematics is now so advanced that I wonder how people still manage to keep their sanity.

Sometimes I wonder if every abstract mathematical equations must have application in the real world.

I think the problem is that the First Cause seem not to be just a force. It's an order creating force. Its amazing that well after the big bang, the laws of entropy was suspended. For me it was an act of deliberate suspension of entropy for a time.

IAmSabrina:



....If anything you're arguing for evolution here, which goes against the creationism doctrine of Christianity!

You should know that I was pulling your legs!

IAmSabrina:

First of all, confounded? Lol. You're the one repeating "infinite progression" and "first cause" like a broken record.

Second of all, disgraceful strawman!

Except you despise the words "Uncaused First Cause"!

An infinite regression activity must consume and dissipate infinite energy. Also involved are constraining forces keeping it in check. I other words, in reality not possible!

Oh! I just used third phrases again like a broken record!

sonmvayina:

How do you tell if.somebody is lying to you or not... Do you believe every story you hear or read?

How do you know you have not swallowed a lie?

Suppose God does really exist? Then you loose big time.

shadeyinka:

How do you know you have not swallowed a lie?

Suppose God does really exist? Then you loose big time.

God is the personification of totality of the consciousness of the universe fully embodied, not a man or human being.. Number23 :19..worshipping a man or human being as God is tantamount to idolatry... It violates the 2nd commandment... I am part of God and God is part of me.... I am not an atheist.

sonmvayina:


God is the personification of totality of the consciousness of the universe fully embodied, not a man or human being.. Number23 :19..worshipping a man or human being as God is tantamount to idolatry... It violates the 2nd commandment... I am part of God and God is part of me.... I am not an atheist.

I almost took you for one...so sorry.

However, I strongly feel that doctrinal differences should be ironed out/discussed on an exclusively Christian thread. Not on Muslim or atheist threads.

I agree with your statement with the exception of the fact that God came down in our image as a result of the unfathomable LOVE to be the payment of our iniquities. We can talk about this on another thread and not here!

Shalom!

shadeyinka:

I almost took you for one...so sorry.

However, I strongly feel that doctrinal differences should be ironed out/discussed on an exclusively Christian thread. Not on Muslim or atheist threads.

I agree with your statement with the exception of the fact that God came down in our image as a result of the unfathomable LOVE to be the payment of our iniquities. We can talk about this on another thread and not here!

Shalom!

Sorry Christians But Your Jesus NEVER Accomplished ANY OF The Prophecies Below...The True Coming Messiah WILL Accomplish These When HE Comes the FIRST TIME There is NO Coming Back A 2nd Time To Finish These Prophecies

The Prophecies of the Messianic Messiah Savior

*The Creator Hashem said he is the only savior and he shares his glory with no one...Isaiah 43:10--11 and Hosea 13:4
*The world has been at war ever since your mangod was created.
*Sin is everywhere.
*No one can die for the sins of another (Ezekiel).
*Human sacrifice is an abomination (Deuteronomy)
So, exactly what made him a savior?
Now, because you appear to need a little education and a reality check, I'm going to give you the REAL messianic prophecies and you can tell me which ones he fulfilled.
World Peace
Isaiah 2:4, 11:-6-8; Micah 4:3-7; Zephaniah 3:12-16; Zechariah 8:3-6
Universal Knowledge of G-d
Isaiah 11:9; Jeremiah 31:33; Zechariah 8:20-23, 14:9; Zephaniah 3:9; Micah 4:1-2
Resurrection of the Dead
Isaiah 26 19; Daniel 12: it; Ezekiel 37:12-13
Ingathering of Israel
Isaiah 11:11-12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6; Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Ezekiel 34:11-16, 36:24-28, 37:21-22; Joel 4:1; Amos 9:25; Micah 2:12; Zephaniah 3:28-20; Zechariah 10:6-16
Building of the Third Temple
Isaiah 56:7; Ezekial 37:26-28, 43:7
Elijah Ushers in the Messianic Age
Malachi 3:23-24

sonmvayina:



Sorry Christians But Your Jesus NEVER Accomplished ANY OF The Prophecies Below...The True Coming Messiah WILL Accomplish These When HE Comes the FIRST TIME There is NO Coming Back A 2nd Time To Finish These Prophecies

The Prophecies of the Messianic Messiah Savior

*The Creator Hashem said he is the only savior and he shares his glory with no one...Isaiah 43:10--11 and Hosea 13:4
*The world has been at war ever since your mangod was created.
*Sin is everywhere.
*No one can die for the sins of another (Ezekiel).
*Human sacrifice is an abomination (Deuteronomy)
So, exactly what made him a savior?
Now, because you appear to need a little education and a reality check, I'm going to give you the REAL messianic prophecies and you can tell me which ones he fulfilled.
World Peace
Isaiah 2:4, 11:-6-8; Micah 4:3-7; Zephaniah 3:12-16; Zechariah 8:3-6
Universal Knowledge of G-d
Isaiah 11:9; Jeremiah 31:33; Zechariah 8:20-23, 14:9; Zephaniah 3:9; Micah 4:1-2
Resurrection of the Dead
Isaiah 26 19; Daniel 12: it; Ezekiel 37:12-13
Ingathering of Israel
Isaiah 11:11-12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6; Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Ezekiel 34:11-16, 36:24-28, 37:21-22; Joel 4:1; Amos 9:25; Micah 2:12; Zephaniah 3:28-20; Zechariah 10:6-16
Building of the Third Temple
Isaiah 56:7; Ezekial 37:26-28, 43:7
Elijah Ushers in the Messianic Age
Malachi 3:23-24

Orishirishi 'la ri 'lojo 'ku Erin!

I hear you!
What else is there to say?

sonmvayina:



Sorry Christians But Your Jesus NEVER Accomplished ANY OF The Prophecies Below...The True Coming Messiah WILL Accomplish These When HE Comes the FIRST TIME There is NO Coming Back A 2nd Time To Finish These Prophecies

The Prophecies of the Messianic Messiah Savior

*The Creator Hashem said he is the only savior and he shares his glory with no one...Isaiah 43:10--11 and Hosea 13:4
*The world has been at war ever since your mangod was created.
*Sin is everywhere.
*No one can die for the sins of another (Ezekiel).
*Human sacrifice is an abomination (Deuteronomy)
So, exactly what made him a savior?
Now, because you appear to need a little education and a reality check, I'm going to give you the REAL messianic prophecies and you can tell me which ones he fulfilled.
World Peace
Isaiah 2:4, 11:-6-8; Micah 4:3-7; Zephaniah 3:12-16; Zechariah 8:3-6
Universal Knowledge of G-d
Isaiah 11:9; Jeremiah 31:33; Zechariah 8:20-23, 14:9; Zephaniah 3:9; Micah 4:1-2
Resurrection of the Dead
Isaiah 26 19; Daniel 12: it; Ezekiel 37:12-13
Ingathering of Israel
Isaiah 11:11-12, 27:12-13, 43:5-6; Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Ezekiel 34:11-16, 36:24-28, 37:21-22; Joel 4:1; Amos 9:25; Micah 2:12; Zephaniah 3:28-20; Zechariah 10:6-16
Building of the Third Temple
Isaiah 56:7; Ezekial 37:26-28, 43:7
Elijah Ushers in the Messianic Age
Malachi 3:23-24

lol. wait patiently for your IN COMING Messiah.

shadeyinka:

True.
But all still remain complex theory and mathematical speculations. Our mathematics is now so advanced that I wonder how people still manage to keep their sanity.

Sometimes I wonder if every abstract mathematical equations must have application in the real world.

I think the problem is that the First Cause seem not to be just a force. It's an order creating force. Its amazing that well after the big bang, the laws of entropy was suspended. For me it was an act of deliberate suspension of entropy for a time.


You should know that I was pulling your legs!


Except you despise the words "Uncaused First Cause"!

An infinite regression activity must consume and dissipate infinite energy. Also involved are constraining forces keeping it in check. I other words, in reality not possible!

Oh! I just used third phrases again like a broken record!

Apologies for the long delay. Been having some issues logging in. How've you been, mate? Wonderful i trust

Anyways, If I treat "cause" as Physics typically defines it, a "first cause" is a temporal relationship and this argument fails for many of the reasons listed below.

If I treat "cause" as something more along the lines of a "support" relationship, then we have a question as to in what way we mean "god is the fundamental ground of being"?

Do we mean in the sense of particles (fields) and forces? So god "supports" all of these we know about? If we were to try and categorize god, it would be in a lower level than sub-atomic particles and the basic forces? In that case, we would want to understand that relationship. How does such a thing support everything the universe is made of all at the same time? What's the connection? In terms of atoms and the particles making it up, we have some idea of the relationship to its more basic particles. Same with those particles to the sub-atomic that supports them. So what's the final connection to the god (field, force, something else)? How does "god" support "gravity," and can we use "god" to accomplish things with gravity? And determine how such an "immaterial" thing supports all of this mass-energy and forces. And whether it is really timeline, eternal, and unchanging, or whether its none of those and we simply don't understand it enough. And why we should simply assume such a thing exists? God sounds an awful lot like a basic support feature of Physics, but we have no evidence supporting such a claim. So why believe it?

Of course the other challenge is that if we frame god in this way, as the most fundamental of the objects Physics attempts to categorize, it then calls into question whether god is a "being" in any sense. And whether god actually has thoughts, feelings, or any other capabilities assigned to him by you christian guys. Frankly, it makes one wonder if the reverence theists have for god isn't misplaced entirely. Like our ancestors reverence for the sun, treating it as a deity when really its a bit more dangerous and a lot less caring.

IAmSabrina:

Apologies for the long delay. Been having some issues logging in. How've you been, mate? Wonderful i trust

This is the most beautiful part of you I've seen I appreciate it and please keep it up.

IAmSabrina:

Anyways, If I treat "cause" as Physics typically defines it, a "first cause" is a temporal relationship and this argument fails for many of the reasons listed below.

If I treat "cause" as something more along the lines of a "support" relationship, then we have a question as to in what way we mean "god is the fundamental ground of being"?

Do we mean in the sense of particles (fields) and forces? So god "supports" all of these we know about? If we were to try and categorize god, it would be in a lower level than sub-atomic particles and the basic forces? In that case, we would want to understand that relationship. How does such a thing support everything the universe is made of all at the same time? What's the connection? In terms of atoms and the particles making it up, we have some idea of the relationship to its more basic particles. Same with those particles to the sub-atomic that supports them. So what's the final connection to the god (field, force, something else)? How does "god" support "gravity," and can we use "god" to accomplish things with gravity? And determine how such an "immaterial" thing supports all of this mass-energy and forces. And whether it is really timeline, eternal, and unchanging, or whether its none of those and we simply don't understand it enough. And why we should simply assume such a thing exists? God sounds an awful lot like a basic support feature of Physics, but we have no evidence supporting such a claim. So why believe it?

I understand you. Physicists would always want to think in terms of the fundamental particles or force upon which every basic physical things are made. Unfortunately is such existed, that would have to react to a Force (most likely ordered) for a change of state to take place.

In other words, even if we can find the most elementary particles which is the basic building block of everything, that fundamental particle will require an external force. Secondly, such a force cannot be initiated by such fundamental particle because an un-channelled force is a useless force. A random force do no work.

In truth the FIRST CAUSE cannot be made from these basic fundamental building block of physical things. Of course that's why the scriptures declare God as a Spirit

IAmSabrina:

Of course the other challenge is that if we frame god in this way, as the most fundamental of the objects Physics attempts to categorize, it then calls into question whether god is a "being" in any sense. And whether god actually has thoughts, feelings, or any other capabilities assigned to him by you christian guys. Frankly, it makes one wonder if the reverence theists have for god isn't misplaced entirely. Like our ancestors reverence for the sun, treating it as a deity when really its a bit more dangerous and a lot less caring.

I agree with you. If God is no more than the unconscious fundamental unit of materials then Christians would be completely irrational.

If you know a little about programming, you will see that the the whole universe seem to be a huge programming where all rule of Object Oriented Program is used. The four principles of object-oriented programming are encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance, and polymorphism.

I don't know if it is scientifically possible for a computer program to write itself: do you think this is possible without a programmer?

But of course, can a computer program by any means recognise it's programmer since both of them are in different dimensions of existence?

shadeyinka:

This is the most beautiful part of you I've seen I appreciate it and please keep it up.



I understand you. Physicists would always want to think in terms of the fundamental particles or force upon which every basic physical things are made. Unfortunately is such existed, that would have to react to a Force (most likely ordered) for a change of state to take place.

In other words, even if we can find the most elementary particles which is the basic building block of everything, that fundamental particle will require an external force. Secondly, such a force cannot be initiated by such fundamental particle because an un-channelled force is a useless force. A random force do no work.

In truth the FIRST CAUSE cannot be made from these basic fundamental building block of physical things. Of course that's why the scriptures declare God as a Spirit



I agree with you. If God is no more than the unconscious fundamental unit of materials then Christians would be completely irrational.

If you know a little about programming, you will see that the the whole universe seem to be a huge programming where all rule of Object Oriented Program is used. The four principles of object-oriented programming are encapsulation, abstraction, inheritance, and polymorphism.

I don't know if it is scientifically possible for a computer program to write itself: do you think this is possible without a programmer?

But of course, can a computer program by any means recognise it's programmer since both of them are in different dimensions of existence?

I equally understand all you're saying but i think you're missing one important detail here....

God, albeit unintelligible, can be described as "the eternal source and sustainer of the potentialities of the world". Which, in less poetic terms, it means god=the sum of all that is in potency. I'm sure you will agree on this.

But why describe something that already has a clear definition with a term that is highly vague and means a different thing to a different man? Not only that but said men go on to make up varying fables and varying rituals about "their god". That's the part that confuses me most. How do they arrive at all these conclusions? And not just one. Multiple!!
But, oh no mate, they don't stop there....
.....they then try to enforce these beliefs on others indirectly infringing on their basic human rights. I've told many people on this forum that personally, i couldn't give a crap about Christianity. But when everyone around you keeps trying to force it on you, it can get pretty equally frustrating & interesting.....

Potency is an abstract concept, but there is nothing mystical or mysterious about it. There is nothing unintelligible in it. Quantum physics showed us that there is nothing inexplicable about some potentiality becoming actual, in fact, the lesson from quantum physics is that everything that is potential can be actual. Or, better yet, there is no qualitative or even ontological difference between potential and actual, except for the subject that is experiencing what is actual for him! (actuality is relative, this is another related lesson from Quantum Mechanics, or from modal realism for the more philosophical inclined).

In fact, actual and potential interact between them way more than we could have thought. Physics also showed us that the Universe is really, borrowing the words from Alan Guth, the "ultimate free lunch"! Given that we live in an actual world i just take it as a given that there exist experiencing beings for whom one of the potential outcomes of the evolution of the universe is actual. Quantum physics shows that this is indeed how reality works. So, Shadeyinka, there's no need to posit for an unintelligible notion whose only function is to make the potential actual. This is just how reality works. You may call it God if you like but this is not useful in the least to better comprehend how things works. Furthermore, God is such an emotionally overcharged and easily misinterpretable word that can only cause more confusion!!

---

TLDR:
for me:
-Abstract, all-encompassing, objective reality=all that is in potency. Everything that is possible.
-Contingent, subjective reality= all that is actual for oneself (for us, our universe). That fact that anything is possible is enough to make that same "anything" actual, contingent in and for itself. Actuality is indexical.

for most theists:
-Abstract, all-encompassing reality=all that is in potency=God, which "put the sparkle" into the:
-Contingent, objective reality=what we experience as contingent; all that is actual.

In my view, actuality is subjective, so there's no need to find a way to explain why or who decided what would become actual and what not.

IAmSabrina:

I equally understand all you're saying but i think you're missing one important detail here....

God, albeit unintelligible, can be described as "the eternal source and sustainer of the potentialities of the world". Which, in less poetic terms, it means god=the sum of all that is in potency. I'm sure you will agree on this.

But why describe something that already has a clear definition with a term that is highly vague and means a different thing to a different man? Not only that but said men go on to make up varying fables and varying rituals about "their god". That's the part that confuses me most. How do they arrive at all these conclusions? And not just one. Multiple!!
But, oh no mate, they don't stop there....
.....they then try to enforce these beliefs on others indirectly infringing on their basic human rights. I've told many people on this forum that personally, i couldn't give a crap about Christianity. But when everyone around you keeps trying to force it on you, it can get pretty equally frustrating & interesting.....

It seemed that in the past humans had a clearer picture of God and there were alternative gods from who you could choose from depending on what you want and the sacrifices you are willing to make.

The Sumerians traced their history to the gods who came from several planets away. The Mayans spoke about the gods who lived with them and ruled over them. The Bible also spoke about the Nephilims who where hybrids between humans and fallen angels.

There are also countless demons that people worshipped through idols and incantations.

I think it's like the case of: Original Jewellery exist but imitations of the original exist in far larger numbers. So also, the Source exists but imitations of the Source also exists.

IAmSabrina:

Potency is an abstract concept, but there is nothing mystical or mysterious about it. There is nothing unintelligible in it. Quantum physics showed us that there is nothing inexplicable about some potentiality becoming actual, in fact, the lesson from quantum physics is that everything that is potential can be actual. Or, better yet, there is no qualitative or even ontological difference between potential and actual, except for the subject that is experiencing what is actual for him! (actuality is relative, this is another related lesson from Quantum Mechanics, or from modal realism for the more philosophical inclined).

In fact, actual and potential interact between them way more than we could have thought. Physics also showed us that the Universe is really, borrowing the words from Alan Guth, the "ultimate free lunch"! Given that we live in an actual world i just take it as a given that there exist experiencing beings for whom one of the potential outcomes of the evolution of the universe is actual. Quantum physics shows that this is indeed how reality works. So, Shadeyinka, there's no need to posit for an unintelligible notion whose only function is to make the potential actual. This is just how reality works. You may call it God if you like but this is not useful in the least to better comprehend how things works. Furthermore, God is such an emotionally overcharged and easily misinterpretable word that can only cause more confusion!!

---

TLDR:
for me:
-Abstract, all-encompassing, objective reality=all that is in potency. Everything that is possible.
-Contingent, subjective reality= all that is actual for oneself (for us, our universe). That fact that anything is possible is enough to make that same "anything" actual, contingent in and for itself. Actuality is indexical.

for most theists:
-Abstract, all-encompassing reality=all that is in potency=God, which "put the sparkle" into the:
-Contingent, objective reality=what we experience as contingent; all that is actual.

In my view, actuality is subjective, so there's no need to find a way to explain why or who decided what would become actual and what not.

I couldn't help but chuckle at the way you quoted your scriptures I had to bold them. You sound exactly like us believers when we say "the Bible says.."

You seem to believe so much in quantum physics even though, much of it are intelligent theories. Of course quantum physics is bizarre when compared with the obvious rules of nature. For me, I believe that quantum mechanics came as a result of imperfections in our mathematical equations and constants leading to breakdown in the classical equations of reality. It's like a patchwork on the real thing. Unfortunately, we get too excited by its prediction ls and postulates. The fact that quantum physics do not work in the classical space shows that it also has as much flaws if not greater than classical mechanics.

I think the problem of atheists stem from the fact that they assume that no other dimensions exist outside space, time and matter. However, things like this are not impossible with quantum physics even though, there may not be a mathematical expression to handle/describe it yet. Such is the spirit realm.

shadeyinka:

It seemed that in the past humans had a clearer picture of God and there were alternative gods from who you could choose from depending on what you want and the sacrifices you are willing to make.

The Sumerians traced their history to the gods who came from several planets away. The Mayans spoke about the gods who lived with them and ruled over them. The Bible also spoke about the Nephilims who where hybrids between humans and fallen angels.

There are also countless demons that people worshipped through idols and incantations.

I think it's like the case of: Original Jewellery exist but imitations of the original exist in far larger numbers. So also, the Source exists but imitations of the Source also exists.

Except we don't know who the source is; we're not even certain it exists! There are lots of religions older than Christianity. Why aren't you a follower of one such religions?

I couldn't help but chuckle at the way you quoted your scriptures I had to bold them. You sound exactly like us believers when we say "the Bible says.."

You seem to believe so much in quantum physics even though, much of it are intelligent theories. Of course quantum physics is bizarre when compared with the obvious rules of nature. For me, I believe that quantum mechanics came as a result of imperfections in our mathematical equations and constants leading to breakdown in the classical equations of reality. It's like a patchwork on the real thing. Unfortunately, we get too excited by its prediction ls and postulates. The fact that quantum physics do not work in the classical space shows that it also has as much flaws if not greater than classical mechanics.

I think the problem of atheists stem from the fact that they assume that no other dimensions exist outside space, time and matter. However, things like this are not impossible with quantum physics even though, there may not be a mathematical expression to handle/describe it yet. Such is the spirit realm.

@bolded: the difference between quantum physics and the bible is that quantum physics is not only verifiable, it is also falsifiable, as any good theory should be. There have been countless experiments that proved the predictions of QM.
For the most interesting, i advise you to check the experimental tests based on the work of
a) J.S. Bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments
b) Alan Aspect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Aspect.

The difference between you and me is that i don't add things to my reality i'm not certain of. The simplest explanation is the best one. Look up Occam's razor when you're chanced

IAmSabrina:

Except we don't know who the source is; we're not even certain it exists! There are lots of religions older than Christianity. Why aren't you a follower of one such religions?

I believe I have answered this question before on another thread.

I must confess it started with a bias: I was born in a Christian home and I believe in life after life

Even though I was a Christian, there were many things I didn't understand about my faith. I was reading and asking questions. I read some Ahmed Deedat's books and it seemed to rear Christianity into shreds. To cut the long story short, in my 200Ls I almost recited the shahada (become a Moslem). It was the Qur'an that led me back to Christ because of some inconsistencies I found.

Initially, my logics before I knew Christ was this:
Only three religions in the world were strictly ..
Two dealt with the issue of resurrection and reward for deeds on earth. Judaism and Christianity shared the same God with Christianity.

Mohammed seemed to impose the nature of Jehovah on Allah.
The contradiction between the quran with respect to the Torah and New Testament was significant.
Allah could not be the same as Jehovah

Were these sufficient reasons?

Probably not. But it led me in the right direction.

I rededicated my life to Christ AND I began to grow in the spirit and in the knowledge of Him. I try to please God as my Father

BUT sometimes I fail miserably (I misbehave as a Christian). I stand up from my failure and move on knowing that He loves me in spite of my frailties.

I know Him. I only wish I can love Him more than this.

For those who never heard of Him, (eg Hindus), they will be judged according to their pure conscience. For those who reject Him, they've made their choice.

IAmSabrina:

@bolded: the difference between quantum physics and the bible is that quantum physics is not only verifiable, it is also falsifiable, as any good theory should be. There have been countless experiments that proved the predictions of QM.
For the most interesting, i advise you to check the experimental tests based on the work of
a) J.S. Bell: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_test_experiments
b) Alan Aspect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alain_Aspect.

The difference between you and me is that i don't add things to my reality i'm not certain of. The simplest explanation is the best one. Look up Occam's razor when you're chanced

I think the difference is that:
Your reality excludes anything that is not physical
My reality includes both the physical and spiritual.

Let me find an analogy to describe it:
In other words, you believe in the classical physics while I believe in both classical and quantum physics.
You ask me:
Have you seen an electron before? I say no!
What is the colour of the electron? I say no colour
Since you've never seen an electron, how do you know it has no colour?
Ok! I want you to put 1million electrons in a glass cup so that we'll see!
Is electron a wave OR particle?
etc.
Even though electrons are real, the kind of required evidence cannot work.


Atheists normally desire physical demonstration of the spirit before they can believe.

shadeyinka:

I believe I have answered this question before on another thread.

I must confess it started with a bias: I was born in a Christian home and I believe in life after life

Even though I was a Christian, there were many things I didn't understand about my faith. I was reading and asking questions. I read some Ahmed Deedat's books and it seemed to rear Christianity into shreds. To cut the long story short, in my 200Ls I almost recited the shahada (become a Moslem). It was the Qur'an that led me back to Christ because of some inconsistencies I found.

Initially, my logics before I knew Christ was this:
Only three religions in the world were strictly ..
Two dealt with the issue of resurrection and reward for deeds on earth. Judaism and Christianity shared the same God with Christianity.

Mohammed seemed to impose the nature of Jehovah on Allah.
The contradiction between the quran with respect to the Torah and New Testament was significant.
Allah could not be the same as Jehovah

Were these sufficient reasons?

Probably not. But it led me in the right direction.

I rededicated my life to Christ AND I began to grow in the spirit and in the knowledge of Him. I try to please God as my Father

BUT sometimes I fail miserably (I misbehave as a Christian). I stand up from my failure and move on knowing that He loves me in spite of my frailties.

I know Him. I only wish I can love Him more than this.

For those who never heard of Him, (eg Hindus), they will be judged according to their pure conscience. For those who reject Him, they've made their choice.

Nice story. We all have our experiences but at the end of the day, those experiences are still subjective. I dropped Christianity after i finished college few years back and i haven't looked back since. I mean, there is a whole continent full of wonderful, unique, kind-hearted people with a deep history and culture, but they're all going to burn in fiery damnation for eternity because they don't believe in this one old dude who died thousands of years ago. It's never really made sense to me.

Back in Lagos many years ago, actually going to church and listening to the sermons...
One time our deacon said "You can't afford to question your relationship with God!" I thought to myself, isn't that what every king and every corrupt government used to say to it's subjects to control them?

No gods, No masters!

Since i dropped religion, one of the best things is now I don't judge people by what some ancient book tells me....
I don't restrict my personal liberty by what some ancient book tells me. I don't vote by what some ancient book tells me. I don't fear if an extremely minor action will doom me to a lake of fire. I don't fear if I've offended something that set impossible standards. I don't perform extreme mental gymnastics to shape the world to a perspective forced upon me by an ancient book.

Basically, I live free. Sabrina's philosophy is what guides her actions, not some hoodoo some desert nomads made up!

I think the difference is that:
Your reality excludes anything that is not physical
My reality includes both the physical and spiritual.

Let me find an analogy to describe it:
In other words, you believe in the classical physics while I believe in both classical and quantum physics.
You ask me:
Have you seen an electron before? I say no!
What is the colour of the electron? I say no colour
Since you've never seen an electron, how do you know it has no colour?
Ok! I want you to put 1million electrons in a glass cup so that we'll see!
Is electron a wave OR particle?
etc.
Even though electrons are real, the kind of required evidence cannot work.


Atheists normally desire physical demonstration of the spirit before they can believe.

You seem to get it.

I reject the ultimate usefulness of the concepts of contingency and potentiality. Whatever remains doesn't appear to have any use for God.

I think everything exists necessarily and I call that everything the universe (or the totality of all that exists). The alternative doesn't appear to make sense to me as any supposed potentiality can only be resolved by that which is necessary and thus everything is necessary. Perhaps one could speculate that the only way any alternative could make sense is if that which is necessary had a will, but I don't think independent will makes sense either as it too would need an explanation which would only fall back to everything being necessary.

One might say that the universe (multiverse or whatever) as the totality of all that exists is greater and does possess sentience, but not in any useful sense or in a sense that a human being is considered to possesses sentience.

IAmSabrina:

Nice story. We all have our experiences but at the end of the day, those experiences are still subjective. I dropped Christianity after i finished college few years back and i haven't looked back since. I mean, there is a whole continent full of wonderful, unique, kind-hearted people with a deep history and culture, but they're all going to burn in fiery damnation for eternity because they don't believe in this one old dude who died thousands of years ago. It's never really made sense to me.

Back in Lagos many years ago, actually going to church and listening to the sermons...
One time our deacon said "You can't afford to question your relationship with God!" I thought to myself, isn't that what every king and every corrupt government used to say to it's subjects to control them?

No gods, No masters!

A certain factor is overwhelming in our final position with the spiritual and that is PERSONAL CHOICE!
We choose either to believe in the EXISTENCE of God and what our RELATIONSHIP with Him should be THEN based on our choices, we either become (rightly or wrongly) BLIND or AWARE of the Spiritual.

Seek and you shall find....


When you see some Human beings exhibiting some level of wickedness, you wonder why Hell shouldn't exist. A few days ago, someone sent me a recorded murder of a young girl by two men. As one was cutting off the head of the pleading girl the other was stabbing her stomach several times with a knife. I couldn't bare to watch this barbarians commit such. If I had my way as a judge, the two men must experience great pain and fear as part of their judgement.

Hell isn't a blanket judgement for disbelievers. Hell is a place for the rejected ones. Even within hell, there are categories. The only problem is that TIME doesn't EXIST in the spirit. Relative to earth's time, we would say "for ever and ever!". But in reality, time doesn't exist.

Agreed, almost ALL spiritual experiences are Subjective: and just like dreams, make deep impressions that cannot be discarded nor shared as "reality" with someone else. Each person must have his/her own experiences.

Like you don't believe in demons because it's impossible to believe in the existence of demons and reject the reality of other spirits. Horror movies have not helped things either by presenting "an embellished and extreme" view as normal. Scientists would want to treat apparent demonic cases as psychological cases...and sometimes, choose to normalize what is abnormal eg. Homosexuality.

IAmSabrina:

Since i dropped religion, one of the best things is now I don't judge people by what some ancient book tells me....
I don't restrict my personal liberty by what some ancient book tells me. I don't vote by what some ancient book tells me. I don't fear if an extremely minor action will doom me to a lake of fire. I don't fear if I've offended something that set impossible standards. I don't perform extreme mental gymnastics to shape the world to a perspective forced upon me by an ancient book.

Basically, I live free. Sabrina's philosophy is what guides her actions, not some hoodoo some desert nomads made up!


You seem to get it.

I reject the ultimate usefulness of the concepts of contingency and potentiality. Whatever remains doesn't appear to have any use for God.

I think everything exists necessarily and I call that everything the universe (or the totality of all that exists). The alternative doesn't appear to make sense to me as any supposed potentiality can only be resolved by that which is necessary and thus everything is necessary . Perhaps one could speculate that the only way any alternative could make sense is if that which is necessary had a will, but[b] I don't think independent will makes sense either as it too would need an explanation which would only fall back to everything being necessary[/b].

One might say that the universe (multiverse or whatever) as the totality of all that exists is greater and does possess sentience, but not in any useful sense or in a sense that a human being is considered to possesses sentience.

Being a Christian doesn't make me judge either. But I have an obligation to show people around the FREE gift of God and to show that we reap what we have planted: of course that humans do NOT die: we only change state.

Interestingly, as one who is Born Again, the least of your worries is hell. But how can one know about but keep quiet of the calamity that is to befall the earth's inhabitants and be guiltless?

Concerning the bolded; ...don't you think everything makes sense from the point of view of the Designer/Builder of everything?

Now, look at our homes. We plant flowers round the house and even some in the house. Do you think it is possible for the flower to rationalize it's purpose in the house? Everything makes sense from the point of view of the Creator!

Speaking about CHOICES; our choices just remains as such because it doesn't change the REALITY (rightly perceived or not). Like a blind person can shut out the reality of the existence of stars because none of his senses can detect stars but it doesn't make the reality invalid.

Forgiveness of sins from the spiritual point of view



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FUH9t3WOFQ