LuciferImam:


The question for this drivel has been asked up there but since I know how thick-skulled you lot can be, I'll ask again:

If Adam & Eve did not have belly buttons but their offsprings do, it proves evolution.

Does this mean you finally agree that humans evolved?

wow
so Adam that lived for 900+ years and we that can't pass 120 ,.Ai think it was evolution too?

TVSA:
why do you want to force mythology to make sense? it's just like chicken versus egg argument. We can all assume our own submission on the subject. That doesn't change the fact that it can't make sense. If you finish Adam argument, we'll go to the ridiculous Noah's story and it goes on and on.

water on earth 71%
land 29%
remember this..?
ice on Antarctic region not water?

Davash222:

Wait, you think Man was empty when God created him

maybe because he thinks they were created, they don't have a stomach or anything inside them. you mumu no be small

Which kind mumu question be this?

Crysthaniel:

water on earth 71%
land 29%
remember this..?
ice on Antarctic region not water?

What are you trying to say? water covered everywhere including the highest point which is 29000 ft high.

Genesis 7:19-20 KJV
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. [20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The water was 22ft above highest peak.
That means water was approximately 29022ft above its normal level. Do the math. Water of that size cover a spherical body.

it would have had to rain an average of 6 inches per minute for the whole period of 40 days. Also, if all that water was in the atmosphere before the rain started, the air pressure at sea level would be an astounding high level, no living thing would've survived both above and below sea. Forget it, Noah's story was bobo, it never happened.

TVSA:


What are you trying to say? water covered everywhere including the highest point which is 29000 ft high.

Genesis 7:19-20 KJV
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. [20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The water was 22ft above highest peak.
That means water was approximately 29022ft above its normal level. Do the math. Water of that size cover a spherical body.

it would have had to rain an average of 6 inches per minute for the whole period of 40 days. Also, if all that water was in the atmosphere before the rain started, the air pressure at sea level would be an astounding high level, no living thing would've survived both above and below sea. Forget it, Noah's story was bobo, it never happened.

well it's your conclusion
but Noah's ark has been discovered at the exact place where the Bible says it was rested ..on month Ararat

The strongest evidence, however, is the testimony of Jesus Christ, who was an eyewitness in the heavens. (Compare Joh 8:58.) He pointedly said: “In the days of Noah, . . . the flood arrived and destroyed them all.”​—Lu 17:26, 27.
also the average depth of ocean is 4.8km
while the average elevation of land is 0.8km above the sea level
if the land portion on the earth can all be smoothed out, yes tons of sand will be thrown to the oceans but the ocean will still cover the land and sink it to 2.8km

Crysthaniel:

well it's your conclusion
but Noah's ark has been discovered at the exact place where the Bible says it was rested ..on month Ararat

Who found Noah's ark? is it all those findings on creation.com?

"Searches for Noah's Ark have been made from at least the time of Eusebius (c.275–339) to the present day. Despite many expeditions, no physical proof of the ark has been reliably identified. Many of the supposed findings and methods are regarded as pseudoscience and pseudoarchaeology by geologists and archaeologists." wikipedia.com

Crysthaniel:


also the average depth of ocean is 4.8km
while the average elevation of land is 0.8km above the sea level
if the land portion on the earth can all be smoothed out, yes tons of sand will be thrown to the oceans but the ocean will still cover the land and sink it to 2.8km

who's talking about smoothing or leveling the land? Bible never said anything about that, stop adding your own parts

Bible said water covered the whole earth, the highest peak was even covered with additional 15in. When the waters receded, it was same thing, the mountains were seen before the land.

Genesis 8:3-9 KJV
And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. [4] And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. [5] And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month , on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen. [6] And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made: [7] And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. [8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Nobody leveled anything. Water was 29022ft above its normal level

TVSA:


Who found Noah's ark? is it all those findings on creation.com?

"Searches for Noah's Ark have been made from at least the time of Eusebius (c.275–339) to the present day. Despite many expeditions, no physical proof of the ark has been reliably identified. Many of the supposed findings and methods are regarded as pseudoscience and pseudoarchaeology by geologists and archaeologists." wikipedia.com



who's talking about smoothing or leveling the land? Bible never said anything about that, stop adding your own parts

Bible said water covered the whole earth, the highest peak was even covered with additional 15in. When the waters receded, it was same thing, the mountains were seen before the land.

Genesis 8:3-9 KJV
And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. [4] And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. [5] And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month , on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen. [6] And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made: [7] And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. [8] Also he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; [9] But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

Nobody leveled anything. Water was 29022ft above its normal level

quite logical
if mountains were seen first
then grounds with highest elevation will surface.. as the water gradually diminishes

that's why there are ocean floor
also water under the ground..

LuciferImam:


If Adam & Eve both have belly buttons but their offsprings don't, that's evolution.

[img]https://media1./images/d591623c9a16e971268f60e375aa82de/tenor.gif?itemid=13138796[/img]

seems i am getting you point hope you are not taking variation for evolution?

TVSA:


What are you trying to say? water covered everywhere including the highest point which is 29000 ft high.

Genesis 7:19-20 KJV
And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. [20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

The water was 22ft above highest peak.
That means water was approximately 29022ft above its normal level. Do the math. Water of that size cover a spherical body.

it would have had to rain an average of 6 inches per minute for the whole period of 40 days. Also, if all that water was in the atmosphere before the rain started, the air pressure at sea level would be an astounding high level, no living thing would've survived both above and below sea. Forget it, Noah's story was bobo, it never happened.

Regardless that the highest point on the earth may not always have been at 29 000ft, there is also the fact that it wasn't just water in the atmosphere that inundated the earth. It was also water from "the deep". In fact, it wasn't just water from the clouds that was meant by "the floodgates of the sky" in Genesis 7:11 either. Consider 2 Peter 3:5-6 and Genesis 1:2, 6-10. It is the same waters that were meant: waters from both the deep and from above.

That is to say that the water that inundated the earth came from the water that once covered the whole universe. It was not all on Earth. Some of it formed the Heavenly Sea of Ice that forms a boundary between this creation and the Third Heaven. It is spoken of in Revelation 4:6. It is also a viewing portal into events on Earth from Heaven. The other part of it formed the sea that is partly the physical oceans that surround the world and also partly the invisible sea that goes deeper and separates this creation from the subterranean parts of creation called Sheol or Hades. In fact, the latter is one sea, but we cannot go so deep in our frail physical bodies as to discover its true depths any more than we can go so high as to find the boundary between this universe and the Third Heaven.

So, your argument is wrong. The water was not all in the atmosphere.

Nor is it necessary that Noah's Ark should be preserved over 4000 years to prove anything. The seasons themselves resulted from that Global Flood. The acceleration of decay (resulting in the discovery of fermentation by Noah) and the incredible shortness of human life are enough proof of the Flood. The Earth wasn't always like it is now.

But none of this matters when people have hardened their hearts to the Truth. Even if the Lord God were to stand before you and show you exactly how the Flood happened in those days, as long as your free will is preserved, you would still throw it all back in His Face and deny His Very Existence if you please. Faith is a choice. Those who love the Truth choose to believe. Those who do not will never believe until the choice is taken from them.

LuciferImam:


If Adam & Eve both have belly buttons but their offsprings don't, that's evolution.

[img]https://media1./images/d591623c9a16e971268f60e375aa82de/tenor.gif?itemid=13138796[/img]

If your argument is correct, then it is evolution if we are taller or shorter than our parents, look different in any respect from them, or in fact are different at all in any respect from them. That would be incredibly absurd because it would mean that offspring ought only to be clones of their parents, wouldn't it?

Ihedinobi3:

If your argument is correct, then it is evolution if we are taller or shorter than our parents, look different in any respect from them, or in fact are different at all in any respect from them. That would be incredibly absurd because it would mean that offspring ought only to be clones of their parents, wouldn't it?

That's simple biology, it can easily be explained. It is dominant and recessive genes

God created Adam and Eve and gave them belly button. It is through their belly button that all other generations were birthed.

Like yourself right?

dacanv:
I believe in evolution.. only a brain washed idiot would believe that man was created with sand.

Ihedinobi3:



That is to say that the water that inundated the earth came from the water that once covered the whole universe. It was not all on Earth. Some of it formed the Heavenly Sea of Ice that forms a boundary between this creation and the Third Heaven. It is spoken of in Revelation 4:6. It is also a viewing portal into events on Earth from Heaven. The other part of it formed the sea that is partly the physical oceans that surround the world and also partly the invisible sea that goes deeper and separates this creation from the subterranean parts of creation called Sheol or Hades. In fact, the latter is one sea, but we cannot go so deep in our frail physical bodies as to discover its true depths any more than we can go so high as to find the boundary between this universe and the Third Heaven.

What is this?

Funaki:


That's simple biology, it can easily be explained. It is dominant and recessive genes

Well then. Why does simple biology not also teach you and the poster that if Adam and Eve were never in a womb, they never needed an umbilical cord, and that an umbilical cord is a far more critical feature than, say, skin color, so that it is not just some cosmetic feature passed down by the genes, but a critical structure for the production of human children?

TVSA:


What is this?

Only a correction of your ignorance. If you were going to quote the Bible, you should at least quote it right, shouldn't you? As I said, what you choose to believe is your kettle of fish.

Ihedinobi3:

Only a correction of your ignorance. If you were going to quote the Bible, you should at least quote it right, shouldn't you? As I said, what you choose to believe is your kettle of fish.

you're saying trash. I thought it was a joke when I read that. Did you really believe all the nonsense you typed? The water formed the heavenly ice and separated us from the third heaven and sheol? Do you think you are in children Sunday school class where you can say rubbish and get away with it? You typed like someone that was high.

TVSA:


you're saying trash. I thought it was a joke when I read that. Did you really believe all the nonsense you typed? The water formed the heavenly ice and separated us from the third heaven and sheol? Do you think you are in children Sunday school class where you can say rubbish and get away with it? You typed like someone that was high.

For what it is worth, nothing in the above amounts to any type of refutation of what I said so that you can talk about getting away with anything. All you have done is laugh, mock, and generally be rude, none of which matters a whit in a debate - even if this was one.

Then again, I told you that I was merely correcting your representation of the Bible here. The Bible does not teach that it was water in the atmosphere that flooded the earth. It teaches rather that it was water from the subterranean and the Heavenly seas that flooded the world.

If you consider that ridiculous, that is your pot of beans really. If you can argue against it, by all means, give it your best shot. I will answer as clearly as I can. If you cannot, I couldn't be less bothered by your mockery.

Ihedinobi3:

For what it is worth, nothing in the above amounts to any type of refutation of what I said so that you can talk about getting away with anything. All you have done is laugh, mock, and generally be rude, none of which matters a whit in a debate - even if this was one.

Then again, I told you that I was merely correcting your representation of the Bible here. The Bible does not teach that it was water in the atmosphere that flooded the earth. It teaches rather that it was water from the subterranean and the Heavenly seas that flooded the world.

If you consider that ridiculous, that is your pot of beans really. If you can argue against it, by all means, give it your best shot. I will answer as clearly as I can. If you cannot, I couldn't be less bothered by your mockery.

where's the heavenly sea of ice? where's the water that separates us from the third heaven or from sheol? where are the locations of those places you mentioned? Are they not described as spiritual places in the bible? water came from the deep, which deep?
or is there a physical location for heaven and hell? A man claimed he saw vision, he mentioned dragons and beast with four faces, lamb talking, stars falling from heaven to the earth and other ridiculous things in his vision and you believed them literally. Or you believe in dragons? you believe stars will fall from heaven to earth.
Or do you still believe that rain water came from windows of heaven like people believed in primordial times?

I was laughing because what I read was really amusing to me. I couldn't just take it that you were being serious.

TVSA:


where's the heavenly sea of ice? where's the water that separates us from the third heaven or from sheol? where are the locations of those places you mentioned? Are they not described as spiritual places in the bible? water came from the deep, which deep?
or is there a physical location for heaven and hell? A man claimed he saw vision, he mentioned dragons and beast with four faces, lamb talking, stars falling from heaven to the earth and other ridiculous things in his vision and you believed them literally. Or you believe in dragons? you believe stars will fall from heaven to earth.
Or do you still believe that rain water came from windows of heaven like people believed in primordial times?

I was laughing because what I read was really amusing to me. I couldn't just take it that you were being serious.

What does "spiritual places" mean?

As for physical location, this universe we live in is separated from the Third Heaven, which is a real and material location where God has His Battle Headquarters right now and where the elect angels and all dead believers are, and Hades/Sheol/Hell, also a real and material location where dead unbelievers are kept in Torments and rebel angels that violate the ground rules of warfare are imprisoned. We humans are unable to physically access either of these other locations, although they are material places. Not only is our body too weak to make the journey, the sea barriers also prohibit physical human access. Only in death can we go to either place.

Prophets who saw these places received a special help to do so. Their spirits were temporarily empowered or enabled to see and experience things that our physical bodies prevent us from seeing. That was how they saw them. Otherwise, as I said, we can only see and experience these realities in death, or at the Resurrection after all living believing humans have had their bodies transformed into powerful ones.

As for believing ridiculous things, did you think that you called dibs on the right to decide what is and what is not ridiculous? I consider your lack of Faith ridiculous. I consider your incredulity about John's visions ridiculous. The very thought that the earth has always been the way it is now is laughable to me. The notion that this universe is all there is is comic to me as well. That I don't laugh at you or mock your unbelief is simply because I consider it in bad taste generally, and I do have better things to be doing than laugh at you. It is entirely in your own mind that you have this sense of intellectual superiority. It is not real at all. I am fine with your mockery. It does not worry me at all, because I know that you are blind. No seeing person has ever been threatened by a blind man's sense of superiority in describing visual realities. That is exactly the case here.

As for the specific things that John mentioned, the dragons and beasts were metaphors. Satan is not really a dragon (or more correctly, snake). He is a fallen cherub. The antichrist's prophet is not a dragon either (in fact, in the metaphor, he only spoke with the voice of a dragon; his appearance was more like that of a lamb) or any kind of animal: he is a human being, or more accurately, a nephilim. There was no beast with four faces. There were beasts with seven heads, which were metaphors both for the Antichrist and for the kingdom he will rule over. There were living beings with four faces. These are the cherubim (or cherubs) who replaced Satan in his duties as Royal Guard after his rebellion. There are four of them. They are not metaphors. They are real angels, and that is how they look. Their appearance is a lesson for believers about Who the Lord Jesus Christ is, and how He is a complete and perfect replacement for Satan in every respect. They are also the highest ranking angels right now.

The lamb was a metaphor for the Lord Jesus, just like the Altar and the Ark of the Covenant, among other things are. The Lord Jesus is God and Man. He is not a lamb, and He is certainly not an Altar. But these things are very good ways to describe and understand Him. As for stars, even now people call comets shooting stars. Stars have always been for human beings any extraterrestrial thing that gives off light somehow (except for the biggest lights which we have called the sun and the moon). In the Bible, the word describes angels (both elect and rebellious), believers, actual stars (that is, the giant gas balls out in space), and meteors. When the giant red dragon is said to sweep a third of the stars with his tail and throw them down to the earth, that was metaphor for Satan's seduction of a third of the angels, and for the apostasy of a third of all believers during the Tribulation. Several angels are also described as coming down to the earth, but they were called stars in prophetic language. Meteors will crash onto the earth, fouling up water, and destroying shipping among other things. They are also called stars in Revelation.

Finally, the Lord Jesus is Himself called the Bright Morning Star. At the end of the Tribulation, He will return like the rising of an extraordinarily brilliant sun. His brightness will light up the entire world in a way that the sun itself never has. That is pretty literal except for the fact that He is not a giant gas ball hanging out in space.

As for windows of Heaven, today we say a lot of things that anyone living today would immediately understand although it might confuse others who have not lived in our times. We say, for example, that it rained cats and dogs. If anyone took that to mean that cats and dogs fell from the sky, we would think that they may be crazy. Old timers had their own metaphors. In the case of Noah, the floodgates of the sky and of the deep may have been metaphorical, but the water's origin was not. The water did come from somewhere not quite on Earth, even if they may not have actually passed through some floodgates in the sky or under the earth.

As I said, you are free to react as you please. You can laugh, mock, jeer, or even turn somersaults. It really is not my problem. I made my choice what to believe, and I intend to continue to believe it, no matter what. You have every right to make yours as well. We will both receive our rewards for our choices, me for mine, and you for yours. Your laughter is yours to be rewarded for. I gain and lose nothing for it.

Ihedinobi3:



As for physical location, this universe we live in is separated from the Third Heaven, which is a real and material location where God has His Battle Headquarters right now and where the elect angels and all dead believers are, and Hades/Sheol/Hell, also a real and material location where dead unbelievers are kept in Torments and rebel angels that violate the ground rules of warfare are imprisoned. We humans are unable to physically access either of these other locations, although they are material places. Not only is our body too weak to make the journey, the sea barriers also prohibit physical human access. Only in death can we go to either place.

This sounds like star wars or guardian of the galaxy. In star wars and guardian of the galaxy, they gave us the position of other locations they were visiting. Where are they located? simple question and you came up with long epistle.
Where's heaven or hell? how far are they from Earth? are they in our solar system or in our galaxy?

You started this with, my mind is blinded, I do not know the truth and I choose not to believe the truth even though it's staring at my face. But you came up with this twaddle of how heaven and hell are "material places" with heaven as battle headquarter of God where's probably preparing his chariots and horses for the war of Armageddon . Our body is too weak to make the journey ? A great sea is separating us? And you think this isn't funny?

TVSA:



This sounds like star wars or guardian of the galaxy. In star wars and guardian of the galaxy, they gave us the position of other locations they were visiting. Where are they located? simple question and you came up with long epistle.
Where's heaven or hell? how far are they from Earth? are they in our solar system or in our galaxy?

You started this with, my mind is blinded, I do not know the truth and I choose not to believe the truth even though it's staring at my face. But you came up with this twaddle of how heaven and hell are "material places" with heaven as battle headquarter of God where's probably preparing his chariots and horses for the war of Armageddon . Our body is too weak to make the journey ? A great sea is separating us? And you think this isn't funny?

It's not my problem what it sounds like to you. I am just describing what the Bible says.

As for your question, I already answered it multiple times. The third Heaven and Sheol are separate places from this universe. They are not part of this cosmos. In biblical language, the third Heaven is above this universe, while Sheol is beneath it. Each is separated from this universe by a cosmic sea. In terms of distance, clearly, their distance is extraordinarily large. The universe is huge from human perspective. You'd have to cross to its upper border to get to the Third Heaven. We humans can't get out of Earth's atmosphere without help, much less out of our own solar system. It's a fantasy we have to get out of our galaxy someday. Crossing the breadth of the universe to the Third Heaven is quite simply beyond us. The same is true for Sheol.

If you want coordinates, we have no such information provided in the Bible.

No I don't think it's funny. I think your arrogance is funny.

Ihedinobi3:

It's not my problem what it sounds like to you. I am just describing what the Bible says.

As for your question, I already answered it multiple times. The third Heaven and Sheol are separate places from this universe. They are not part of this cosmos. In biblical language, the third Heaven is above this universe, while Sheol is beneath it. Each is separated from this universe by a cosmic sea. In terms of distance, clearly, their distance is extraordinarily large. The universe is huge from human perspective. You'd have to cross to its upper border to get to the Third Heaven. We humans can't get out of Earth's atmosphere without help, much less out of our own solar system. It's a fantasy we have to get out of our galaxy someday. Crossing the breadth of the universe to the Third Heaven is quite simply beyond us. The same is true for Sheol.

If you want coordinates, we have no such information provided in the Bible.

No I don't think it's funny. I think your arrogance is funny.

So heaven and hell are in another universes of their own. The water from these universes caused Noah's flood? So when we die, we travel to either of them with a rocket or what? and bible told you all these? The writers of the bible that didn't know that stars are like sun on their own solar systems, stars could fall from heaven to earth according to them. The bible that said men could build towers to reach heaven. That earth has four corners and God laid its foundation.

Before, God was in the sky, when people went there, God was then in space, when people got there, He's in another galaxy. Now, he's in another universe.

TVSA:


So heaven and hell are in another universes of their own. The water from these universes caused Noah's flood? So when we die, we travel to either of them with a rocket or what? and bible told you all these? The writers of the bible that didn't know that stars are like sun on their own solar systems, stars could fall from heaven to earth according to them. The bible that said men could build towers to reach heaven. That earth has four corners and God laid its foundation.

Before, God was in the sky, when people went there, God was then in space, when people got there, He's in another galaxy. Now, he's in another universe.

I think that you are not keeping pace with the conversation.

What I addressed you with was a correction of the biblical position, not an argument for the veracity of the Scriptures. In fact, I told you quite explicitly that I'm not concerning myself with what you choose to believe. That hasn't changed. If you think that the Bible is a ridiculous document, feel free to ignore it. You have the free will to. If it is right after all, and there turns out to be a judge, then you will answer for it ultimately. But that is your business, not mine. That I choose to believe it is my business, not yours. If you decide to make it yours, you will only be frustrated by my disinterest in your concern or mockery, as the case may be. But carry on with either as you please.

As for what the Bible says, first, the cosmic seas form boundaries above and below, so they, that is, the cosmic seas are technically part of this universe too.

Second, when we die, we are given a sort of interim body that is not quite like this one we have but which allows us to experience reality in a far more powerful way than we do right now, then we are taken by the angels to our chosen place. If we chose to remain rebels against God, the angels deposit us in Torments in Hades. If we chose to repent and submit to Him in Christ Jesus, the angels take us to Heaven. No rocket is needed, because it is only our physical bodies that are weak. In our interim body, the journey is pretty much instantaneous.

Third, yes, the Bible told me all this. Do you know the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? That's a major clue. It was a true story that our Lord told to make a point about how each person is evaluated in the sight of God. Another clue is about Samuel the prophet when he was called up in a sèance by the Witch of Endor. Then, the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Lord Jesus's Transfiguration. There is also the Ascension of the Lord Jesus after He resurrected, and the testimony of John in Revelation. The Bible is pretty much replete with this teaching.

Fourth, perhaps the writers of the Bible knew that the stars out in space were like our own sun, perhaps they didn't. That is neither here nor there, in my thinking. I cannot see how their knowledge or ignorance in that made any kind of difference. They were writing under the inspiration of the Lord God Himself Who made all creation, so I would say that their ignorance was more than adequately accounted for.

Fifth, as for stars falling to the earth, I did answer that already. Would be a waste of time to repeat myself when you already complained about a long epistle that was written to answer questions you clearly don't care to have answered.

Sixth, as for towers that reach Heaven, that is yet another problem of presentism that I keep running into with atheists. You read that to mean that a physical structure was to be built to stretch physically up into Heaven, but that was not the meaning. A ziggurat was a high place that men built for ritual worship. The idea in that story of Babel was that the whole world was looking to unify religion, and essentially eliminate individual free will that guarantees everyone the right and ability to worship whomever they will. So, it wasn't about the physical height. It was a symbol.

Seventh, as for corners of the earth, I'm not sure who you are arguing with. All navigators and scientists conceptualize space in four cardinal directions: East, West, North, and South. What is your problem with that?

Eighth, as for laying foundations, would you take issue with anyone who says that Isaac Newton laid the foundation for quantum mechanics? Would you say that they are being foolish talking like that? I think it is language that you would readily understand in that context. It is language that I readily understand in this context of creating the universe too. I don't see what you think is wrong with it.

Ninth, as for where God has been or is, the Bible does not teach that God is in the atmosphere or in space. He is everywhere, but His Manifest Presence is in the Third Heaven. That is what the Bible teaches. Of course, the Third Heaven is sometimes spoken of as the sky, but it most certainly is farther from us than the clouds or the vastness of space that surrounds us.

Ihedinobi3:

I think that you are not keeping pace with the conversation.

What I addressed you with was a correction of the biblical position, not an argument for the veracity of the Scriptures. In fact, I told you quite explicitly that I'm not concerning myself with what you choose to believe. That hasn't changed. If you think that the Bible is a ridiculous document, feel free to ignore it. You have the free will to. If it is right after all, and there turns out to be a judge, then you will answer for it ultimately. But that is your business, not mine. That I choose to believe it is my business, not yours. If you decide to make it yours, you will only be frustrated by my disinterest in your concern or mockery, as the case may be. But carry on with either as you please.

As for what the Bible says, first, the cosmic seas form boundaries above and below, so they, that is, the cosmic seas are technically part of this universe too.

Second, when we die, we are given a sort of interim body that is not quite like this one we have but which allows us to experience reality in a far more powerful way than we do right now, then we are taken by the angels to our chosen place. If we chose to remain rebels against God, the angels deposit us in Torments in Hades. If we chose to repent and submit to Him in Christ Jesus, the angels take us to Heaven. No rocket is needed, because it is only our physical bodies that are weak. In our interim body, the journey is pretty much instantaneous.

Third, yes, the Bible told me all this. Do you know the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? That's a major clue. It was a true story that our Lord told to make a point about how each person is evaluated in the sight of God. Another clue is about Samuel the prophet when he was called up in a sèance by the Witch of Endor. Then, the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Lord Jesus's Transfiguration. There is also the Ascension of the Lord Jesus after He resurrected, and the testimony of John in Revelation. The Bible is pretty much replete with this teaching.

Fourth, perhaps the writers of the Bible knew that the stars out in space were like our own sun, perhaps they didn't. That is neither here nor there, in my thinking. I cannot see how their knowledge or ignorance in that made any kind of difference. They were writing under the inspiration of the Lord God Himself Who made all creation, so I would say that their ignorance was more than adequately accounted for.

Fifth, as for stars falling to the earth, I did answer that already. Would be a waste of time to repeat myself when you already complained about a long epistle that was written to answer questions you clearly don't care to have answered.

Sixth, as for towers that reach Heaven, that is yet another problem of presentism that I keep running into with atheists. You read that to mean that a physical structure was to be built to stretch physically up into Heaven, but that was not the meaning. A ziggurat was a high place that men built for ritual worship. The idea in that story of Babel was that the whole world was looking to unify religion, and essentially eliminate individual free will that guarantees everyone the right and ability to worship whomever they will. So, it wasn't about the physical height. It was a symbol.

Seventh, as for corners of the earth, I'm not sure who you are arguing with. All navigators and scientists conceptualize space in four cardinal directions: East, West, North, and South. What is your problem with that?

Eighth, as for laying foundations, would you take issue with anyone who says that Isaac Newton laid the foundation for quantum mechanics? Would you say that they are being foolish talking like that? I think it is language that you would readily understand in that context. It is language that I readily understand in this context of creating the universe too. I don't see what you think is wrong with it.

Ninth, as for where God has been or is, the Bible does not teach that God is in the atmosphere or in space. He is everywhere, but His Manifest Presence is in the Third Heaven. That is what the Bible teaches. Of course, the Third Heaven is sometimes spoken of as the sky, but it most certainly is farther from us than the clouds or the vastness of space that surrounds us.

Stop with your rants about what you believe and bla bla bla, who cares what you believe? you started this argument with "I'm blinded from the truth". If anyone should be ranting, it shouldn't be you. . But you suddenly make this about yourself. You must feel very important about the nonsense you've been saying. If you like, you can choose to believe whatever you like, how ridiculous that might be. It's your believe, they're not facts. You admitted you believe the bible even though what it admits might not be true. Then you went ahead to twist everything to fit your believe.

The one that got me the most is how you managed to twist the four corners of the earth to mean navigation. When bible said four angels stood at the four corners of the earth, where were they standing? Which navigator told you he stood at any corners of the earth before?

Ihedinobi3:

I think that you are not keeping pace with the conversation.

What I addressed you with was a correction of the biblical position, not an argument for the veracity of the Scriptures. In fact, I told you quite explicitly that I'm not concerning myself with what you choose to believe. That hasn't changed. If you think that the Bible is a ridiculous document, feel free to ignore it. You have the free will to. If it is right after all, and there turns out to be a judge, then you will answer for it ultimately. But that is your business, not mine. That I choose to believe it is my business, not yours. If you decide to make it yours, you will only be frustrated by my disinterest in your concern or mockery, as the case may be. But carry on with either as you please.

As for what the Bible says, first, the cosmic seas form boundaries above and below, so they, that is, the cosmic seas are technically part of this universe too.

Second, when we die, we are given a sort of interim body that is not quite like this one we have but which allows us to experience reality in a far more powerful way than we do right now, then we are taken by the angels to our chosen place. If we chose to remain rebels against God, the angels deposit us in Torments in Hades. If we chose to repent and submit to Him in Christ Jesus, the angels take us to Heaven. No rocket is needed, because it is only our physical bodies that are weak. In our interim body, the journey is pretty much instantaneous.

Third, yes, the Bible told me all this. Do you know the parable of Lazarus and the rich man? That's a major clue. It was a true story that our Lord told to make a point about how each person is evaluated in the sight of God. Another clue is about Samuel the prophet when he was called up in a sèance by the Witch of Endor. Then, the appearance of Moses and Elijah at the Lord Jesus's Transfiguration. There is also the Ascension of the Lord Jesus after He resurrected, and the testimony of John in Revelation. The Bible is pretty much replete with this teaching.

Fourth, perhaps the writers of the Bible knew that the stars out in space were like our own sun, perhaps they didn't. That is neither here nor there, in my thinking. I cannot see how their knowledge or ignorance in that made any kind of difference. They were writing under the inspiration of the Lord God Himself Who made all creation, so I would say that their ignorance was more than adequately accounted for.

Fifth, as for stars falling to the earth, I did answer that already. Would be a waste of time to repeat myself when you already complained about a long epistle that was written to answer questions you clearly don't care to have answered.

Sixth, as for towers that reach Heaven, that is yet another problem of presentism that I keep running into with atheists. You read that to mean that a physical structure was to be built to stretch physically up into Heaven, but that was not the meaning. A ziggurat was a high place that men built for ritual worship. The idea in that story of Babel was that the whole world was looking to unify religion, and essentially eliminate individual free will that guarantees everyone the right and ability to worship whomever they will. So, it wasn't about the physical height. It was a symbol.

Seventh, as for corners of the earth, I'm not sure who you are arguing with. All navigators and scientists conceptualize space in four cardinal directions: East, West, North, and South. What is your problem with that?

Eighth, as for laying foundations, would you take issue with anyone who says that Isaac Newton laid the foundation for quantum mechanics? Would you say that they are being foolish talking like that? I think it is language that you would readily understand in that context. It is language that I readily understand in this context of creating the universe too. I don't see what you think is wrong with it.

Ninth, as for where God has been or is, the Bible does not teach that God is in the atmosphere or in space. He is everywhere, but His Manifest Presence is in the Third Heaven. That is what the Bible teaches. Of course, the Third Heaven is sometimes spoken of as the sky, but it most certainly is farther from us than the clouds or the vastness of space that surrounds us.

Good morning bro. How do you do? You never replied my mail.

Ihedinobi3:

Well then. Why does simple biology not also teach you and the poster that if Adam and Eve were never in a womb, they never needed an umbilical cord, and that an umbilical cord is a far more critical feature than, say, skin color, so that it is not just some cosmetic feature passed down by the genes, but a critical structure for the production of human children?

who is this one? umbilical cord is not a genetic structure? clap for yourself.

The umbilical cord is physiologically and genetically part of the fetus

TVSA:


Stop with your rants about what you believe and bla bla bla, who cares what you believe? you started this argument with "I'm blinded from the truth". If anyone should be ranting, it shouldn't be you. . But you suddenly make this about yourself. You must feel very important about the nonsense you've been saying. If you like, you can choose to believe whatever you like, how ridiculous that might be. It's your believe, they're not facts. You admitted you believe the bible even though what it admits might not be true. Then you went ahead to twist everything to fit your believe.

The one that got me the most is how you managed to twist the four corners of the earth to mean navigation. When bible said four angels stood at the four corners of the earth, where were they standing? Which navigator told you he stood at any corners of the earth before?

I believe it was you laughing at me for believing the Bible, and it was you mocking and making fun of me for believing these things I have been saying. Yeah, I think it is right to say that you care what I believe. And I advise that you should probably leave well enough alone unless you are actually willing to consider that what I believe may be true.

First, obviously, this is not an argument at all. You have not advanced any arguments or counter-arguments. You have asked questions that you didn't expect any reasonable answer to. And you have mocked and ridiculed a position you simply don't understand.

Second, you said this before and I ignored it, but you are wrong. This exchange began because I corrected what you implied that the Bible said. I did say in my first response to you that when people do not love the Truth, nothing will make them believe it, as long as they have the free will to choose whether or not to believe. That was to explain that your issue with the Bible has nothing to do with its veracity. It was in a later post that I told you that you were blind to the Truth. The reason for that was that you seemed to think that you had some superior right to decide what is ridiculous and what isn't.

Third, I'm not sure what you are calling a rant in any of my posts. My posts have been almost exclusively answers to the questions you presented as challenges. The few extra comments were to redirect attention to the point of our exchange, namely, to clarify the biblical position.

Fourth, I'm not certain how I have made this about me. You, on the other hand, have been responding like the conversation has been about me all along. That has occasioned my extra comments to redirect attention to what the Bible actually says as against what you misrepresent it to say.

Fifth, as I said, if you consider the Bible's position to be nonsense, that's really your cup of tea. I couldn't care less.

Sixth, I told you that you have not offered any kind of refutation against the biblical position. Your claim that the biblical position is not fact does not automatically become true because you made it. If you can show that any of the things that the Bible says is false, then you have reason to say that it is not fact. Otherwise, you cannot truthfully make such a claim.

Seventh, I have answered your questions as you have asked them. If you consider any of my answers a twisting of any truth or fact, you certainly have all the resources at your disposal to expose my dishonesty. It is an exchange after all. You are not muzzled.

Eighth, I have not needed to admit that I believe the Bible. I positively claimed and have maintained the claim that I believe the Bible. But I have not at any point so much as recognized any possibility that anything it says may not be true. I have absolutely no doubt that everything that the Bible teaches is true. Otherwise, why would I have been answering your questions until now?

Ninth, it is not my responsibility to make you understand or believe anything I say. I explained to you that the Bible's use of four corners to describe the Earth is no more a problem than it is for navigators and scientists to do. If you see any twisting in that, go on and demonstrate it. Or else, this is no more than whining on your part.

Tenth, the four corners of the Earth are the East, West, North, and South. Those points are where the angels stood.

Eleventh, off the top of my hat, I'm not sure, but I think I've read at least one old time navigator claim to have reached the northernmost part of the earth or something along those lines. It really doesn't matter either. You are probably the only person in the world who does not think of the Earth in terms of its four cardinal points. Most people talk about America, Canada etc in the West, China in the Far East, Russia and Greenland in the North, and Antarctica at least in the South.

TheArranger:

Good morning bro. How do you do? You never replied my mail.

Hello. It has been a bit. I don't know if it is that you didn't get my last email or I didn't get your last, but I didn't hear back from you after I confirmed to you that I prefer to discuss via email. Did you get that last then?

Funaki:


who is this one? umbilical cord is not a genetic structure? clap for yourself.

The umbilical cord is physiologically and genetically part of the fetus

I think you didn't pay good attention to what you read. I did not say at any point that the umbilical cord is not a genetic structure. I said that it is not merely a cosmetic feature. Every human fetus, regardless what their other features may be, possesses an umbilical cord, or else it would not be viable. Of course, if the genes do not have the information, there would be no umbilical cord. But the umbilical cord is a critical function. It is useless unless a fetus is needing it to receive nourishment from an incubating parent.

Therefore, Adam's and Eve's lack of an umbilical cord would have absolutely no impact on their offspring, genetically speaking. The genes that they passed down to their children could still possess information for an umbilical cord even if they themselves lacked one, simply because without it it would be impossible to incubate human fetuses. All that was necessary was for Adam and Eve to possess the perfect blueprint of all human genetic information, in order for their offspring to possess features contained in any part of the genetic sequence that they inherit. Not for them to have all human features.