geosegun:
The above summarized it all. Another knock out from @TAO11. What a well seasoned scholarly person you are...Respect.

I wonder why some people will be comfortable to lie and distort history because of their inferiority complex. What's the big deal if one city rules over the other...? For the records, Britain was enslaved by Roman's, the now mighty US was ruled by small highland Britain for almost 400 years and brought about her civilisation and heaven did not fall. Even Britain, the US and some rest of old powers are confidence to include these in there national histories. They ve accepted who they are and have moved on and hence, great people now.

But nay, our people will distort histories and think they are doing themselves a tribal service? Not knowing that it was a great disservice to generations yet unborn, as no one will ever take you/them serious in any way. This act of historical distortions is a national disgrace. This has to stop.

TAO11:


Smiles...

Your amateurish and interestingly lame defense (or "arguments" as you may like to call it) reminds me of the act of throwing anything and everything (in the hope that something sticks) without minding the obvious mutual contradiction flooding the statements been thrown around.


Your argument, in a nutshell, is as follows:

Premise 1: Ile-Ife was founded by a prince of Benin kingdom (or Igodomigodo) whose name is Ekaladerhan.

Premise 2: One of the sons of this Ekaladerhan sometime later went to become the king back at home --- that is; back in Benin kingdom.

Conclusion 3: Hence, Benin kingdom pays homage to Ile-Ife, but not the other way round.


The obvious inherent blatant contradiction in the foregoing "argument" of yours is a clear testament to the fact that reality and fiction shouldn't mix.

Any desperate attempt to mix fact and fiction as a singularity is like a patchwork whose seems would always be obvious.


Not only does the seams of your patchwork still get palpably perceptible, but there is also actually no scholarly support for the Apocryphal and pseudohistorical narrative that a certain Benin prince Ekaladerhan became king at Ile-Ife.


I have cited you a reference to Benin's earliest and classical historical account in the works of Chief Jacob Uwadiae Egharevba (who is the leading and most respected indigenous Edo historian dead or alive anywhere in the world) where it is stated that the prince Ekalderhan having been exiled to Ughoton lived and died there.


I have cited you the work of Dmitri M. Bondarenko, a world-renowned expert of Benin History and a leading academic (if not the world's present leading academic alive) in the field of Benin Studies.

I have adduced his statement to the effect that such account of a Benin prince Ekaladerhan becoming king at Ife is Apocryohal, unauthentic, and pseudohistorical.

And he continued to show that the motive behind this forgery in the 1970s (contrary to the classical Bini account that had held sway since 1933) is the desperation by a handful of Binis to ground the idea of an exceptional antiquity for the Binis thereby laying a claim to Benin's exclusive part in the sociopolitical life of independent Nigeria.


So far, it is very unfortunate and shocking that you've not been able to adduce even a single shred of scholarly statement or evidence to support your wishful claim that your prince Ekaladerhan became king at Ile-Ife.

All you've presented so far is your own words --- in other words, your personal wish. Yet you apparently strongly insist that your wish must be trusted over and above the submission of the leading experts of Benin History. Isn't that interesting?


Having demonstrated from scholarly evidence that the idea of a certain prince Ekaladerhan becoming king at Ife is simply a figment of the wild and ambitious imaginations of the fabricators, we are, therefore, not left with many factual options but one.


And the fact thus remains that Oranmiyan, a full-fledged Ife prince, sojourned on an expedition to a relatively backward Igodomigodo land; scrapped its indigenous "Ogiso" dynasty; introduced a foreign monarchy viz. "Oba"; and then made this newer monarchy into an Ife Yoruba blood-line dynasty till date.

Provide me one --- just one --- scholarly evidence from anywhere in the world which disputes the foregoing facts.

And if you can not find any contrary scholarly evidence (you obviously can not), then you should have to explain how Oranmiyan's establishment of an Ife-Yoruba dynasty in a foreign land is not one and the same thing as establishing an Ife colony there.

**In light of the fact of the already dismissed fictional and self-contradictory idea that a Benin prince founded Ife; your admittance of the fact that the kings of Benin kingdom PAID HOMAGE to Ile-Ife therefore remains a testament to what it is --- that is, a testament to the fact of Ife's imperial influence and domination over a foreign country, viz. Igodomigodo.


Furthermore, it amazes me that you also (like in the above case) admitted the fact that Ife exercised a spiritual Overlordship over Benin kingdom; but yet you seem to be trivializing that fact.

Please inform me, what other kinds of influence and overlordship can be greater than a spiritual and religious allegiance to a theocratic monarchy such as that of ancient Ife?

Did you know before now that the Ooni of Ife was literally regarded, in Benin kingdom, as God Almighty in human flesh?

Yes, the Ooni of Ife was actually referred to, in Benin kingdom, by the epithet "Oghene". Yes, "Oghene".

Refer to: Omo N'Oba N'Edo Erediauwa's "The Benin-Ife Connection (2004)". A source which I believe you would trust.


It is for this reason that Omo N'Oba Erediauwa could have made a statement along the following lines:

The "land of Edo ... was founded by the first Oba of Benin who was the youngest son of the Supreme God."

[Oba of Benin, quoted in Eweka 1992:2 and cited in Roger Blench & Matthew Spriggs, Archaeology and Language I: Theoretical and Methodological Orientations, 2004, p. 314.]

Isn't Oranmiyan truly thought, in Benin traditions, to be the youngest son of the Ooni of Ife?


Also, refer, for more details, to the attached screenshot (which from my experience, Nairaland does not allow me to post as a comment) on the overlordship and suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom.


Regarding your latest point on the language evidence, you seem to be gradually seeing the light.

You noted that "language is not the only factor for dominance".

And this is precisely my point which I have consistently and repeatedly defended.

Yes, language is just one evidence of the suzerainty of Ile-Ife over Benin kingdom, and as it is obvious I have since added more evidence.


Furthermore, regarding your remark that "Lagos was colonized by Oba Orosghene ...", this remark actually contains certain inaccuracies and assumption that need to be pointed out.

First, on the inaccuracies: The region in question is not Lagos per se but actually a section of Lagos known today as Lagos Island. Also, the king of Benin kingdom in question is not Oba Oroghene as you presumed, but Oba Orhogbua --- even according to the erudite Benin historian J. U. Egharevba.

Second, on the assumption: Your remark that Lagos Island was "colonized" by Benin kingdom actually assumes that this Benin account is actually identical to, and uniform in all respects with, the account held by the autochthonous people of the region, i.e. the Aworis. Your assumption here is terribly mistaken and actually false.


The Bini and the Awori accounts actually differ in a number of important respects:

While the Bini account lay claim to an outright conquest, the Awori account describes many indecisive conflicts and skirmishes between the indigenous Awori population on one hand; and the non-Awori resident population (which comprises largely of the Bini traders, but also includes others like the Ijebu, the Ilaje, the Ikale, the Owo, the Egba, the Egbado, the Aja, and the Ijaw traders) on the other hand.

The Awori account notes that these conflicts and skirmishes endured and escalated so badly as to almost completely cripple trading activities. The Benin resident population was therefore so affected that it could not make its due remittances back home to the Oba of Benin.

So, this shortage of remittances from its Benin subjects residing in faraway Lagos Island attracted the attention of the government of Benin kingdom. The intervention thus necessitated the need to find a lasting solution to the incessant conflicts between the indigenous population and the non-Awori resident population of different trading groups.

It was, however, eventually resolved that an ultimate settlement would involve permitting the non-Awori resident population to have some representation and hence participation in the government of the island which had been administered theretofore solely by the Olofin and his enclave of Awori chiefs.

This arrangement, therefore, gave a platform to Asheru --- a Benin man who had been the leader and voice for the non-Awori resident population of traders --- to participate in the governance of the island alongside the indigenous people.

But unfortunately, the new arrangement proved to be ineffective in putting a final stop to the conflicts, and Asheru was soon afterwards killed in one of the clashes/skirmishes that ensued in the course of time.

A certain Awori prince named Aṣipa who is described in same Awori account as an Isheri chief of Ife royal descent (and who obviously shared some of the sentiments of the resident alien population) graciously led the party that conveyed Asheru's body to Benin.

Aṣipa --- with the support of his loyalists which largely consist of the resident alien population --- eventually became the new dynastic king of the island to whom the line of Lagos Island kings till date is traced as their progenitor.


Refer to: S. Adebanji Akintoye, A History of the Yoruba People, Amalion Publishing, 2010, pp. 221-222:

An outstanding, audacious, and refreshing scholarly comprehensive research work of about thirty-two years, by a Professor of African and Yoruba History who has been in the frontline of African and Yoruba history studies for over four decades in different Nigerian and U.S. prestigious and foremost universities.

This authoritative work enjoyed the inputs and reviews of an enclave of world-renowned historians of African and Yoruba History such as: J. F. Ade Ajayi (Emeritus Professor of History, University of Ibadan, Nigeria); Elisee Soumonni (Retired Professor of African History and Archaeology, National University of Benin, Benin Republic); Robin C. C. Law (Professor of African History, Stirling University, Scotland); Toyin Falola (the Frances Higginbotham Nalle Centennial Professor of History, University of Texas, U.S.); Funso Afolayan (Associate Professor of History and African Studies, University of New Hampshire, Durham); and Adebayo Oyebade (Professor of History, Tennessee State University, Nashville).


The foregoing account is the standard Awori account of the relationship between "Oko" (i.e. the earlier Yoruba name of the region which became phono-semantically matched into the Edo word "Èkó" which in turn proves, with time, to be more dominant through Benin's popularity and influence among the alien resident population) and Benin kingdom.


This Awori account is obviously and clearly in sharp contrast to the Benin account.

If I am, however, faced with the option of adopting the most logical and consistent of these two accounts (as I am now faced with), then I am inclined to upholding the Awori account, not merely for being a Yoruba myself, but for the fact that only the Awori account explains the historical absence of any adoption of Edo language alongside Yoruba language on the island (or in any part of Lagos for that matter) --- a phenomenon which would have been present had Benin kingdom truly "colonized" Lagos as the Benin account claims.

Be humble, cheers!

Chidorx60:


U obviously seem to know more than me on this subjects, so at this point I need not prove my points any further.
Cause it seems u are looking for an excuse to display ur knowledge of history.

But take a while to think,.
What does the superiority of the Ooni over the Oba add to u,
Why must we as Nigerians allow, division and tribalism limit our country.

Btw u are one knowledgeable Lady , cheers I submit to ur proofs,

Astark:
I don't even read the gibberish that this clown is right. She's trying to uplift ile Ife and ooni image by saying Benin were under them.

Let it be known that Benin were never under anybody, Yoruba were nobody's before their "oduduwa " came from Benin.

We don't see ile ice or the ooni in high esteem, they are one of the many kingdoms that the British gave power and fame.

TAO11:


Lol!

You already confirmed the reason why you know nothing.

You admitted unequivocally that:

You "don't even read".

So, what can I do?


However, I advice that you talk to someone from Benin who reads.


Chidorx60 is from Benin kingdom, he reads, he now knows, and he's now liberated.

Talk to him.

Cheers!

Astark:
lmao, I won't be surprise if you're the same person replying yourself and liking your comment

TAO11:



Perhaps

However, what is more important is that you cultivate a reading habit.

Readers are leaders!

Cheers.

Astark:
I love to read but not the gibberish you wrote. You try so hard in downplaying Benin kingdom and the oba of Benin while giving ile ife and ooni high status.

No Edo or edoid person will ever take you serious

Astark:
I love to read but not the gibberish you wrote. You try so hard in downplaying Benin kingdom and the oba of Benin while giving ile ife and ooni high status.

No Edo or edoid person will ever take you serious

TAO11:


No, I tried so hard to suppress falsehood and misinformation. And I've been very successful all along.


It's a pity that inferiority complex has gripped you very strongly and very badly.

geosegun:


Well articulated. I can attest to this %100.

Toluobaeko11:
I don't know why it's hard for some people to leave our Oduduwa for us. Our Oduduwa used a chain to descend from heaven, that is our own history. Benin prince was banished to forest, that is your own history.
I don't know why our history of Oduduwa is giving some people headache. The Greeks and Romans are holding tight to their history about Zeus, Hercules. We Christian believed Jesus was born without sexual contact, walk on water, and rose from dead after 3 days, no one can blame us for what we choose to believe. I'm not saying the story of your Prince wandering in the forest is not true, because it's your story and no one is arguing it with you. Don't just try do edit our own history for us. By the way, I am a descendant of great Oduduwa and I'm standing by what my father passed down to me as it was passed down to him by his father, and his father through his grandfather.

TAO11:


Nice submission bro!

But I have a question:

Do you really think that the man Oduduwa actually came down literally from the sky?

Toluobaeko11:

Every culture and civilizations on planet earth have what they believed in, even though it may sound foolish to other people, but it doesn't change the fact they believed in it. YES! I believed Oduduwa came from the sky, and I'll pass it to my unborn generation as it was passed down to me.

Toluobaeko11:
I don't know why it's hard for some people to leave our Oduduwa for us. Our Oduduwa used a chain to descend from heaven, that is our own history. Benin prince was banished to forest, that is your own history.
I don't know why our history of Oduduwa is giving some people headache. The Greeks and Romans are holding tight to their history about Zeus, Hercules. We Christian believed Jesus was born without sexual contact, walk on water, and rose from dead after 3 days, no one can blame us for what we choose to believe. I'm not saying the story of your Prince wandering in the forest is not true, because it's your story and no one is arguing it with you. Don't just try do edit our own history for us. By the way, I am a descendant of great Oduduwa and I'm standing by what my father passed down to me as it was passed down to him by his father, and his father through his grandfather.

TAO11:


Okay, and thanks so much for replying.

Moreover, let me quickly say that, from your reply, two things becomes very obvious as the reasons why you "believe" what you "believe":


(1) It has been passed down to you (and of course to me) through the generations before us.

(2) There are other ancient cultures, religions, and civilizations all over the world who also "believe" in similar fantastic stories even up till this moment.

Let me know if you "believe" what you "believe" for more other reasons.

Having said that, I like to know if you've ever possible entertained the thoughts that:

(1) The simple fact that a story (any story at all --- even believable ones) has been passed down to us over the generations does not in itself make the story a historical truth or reality.

(2) The fact that "others" do something similar does not in itself constitute a proof that my doing something similar means I'm accurate.

Have you considered these contentions before? Or should I say: doesn't the foregoing contentions make sense to you?

Let's discuss!

Toluobaeko11:

Well.....this is not about Yoruba history alone, every civilization has their own mystical history which no one can take away from them, even the Bible history/stories we Christians sticks to is mystical also. All these mystical history of different civilizations may not be completely true(FACT), but people still believe in it even though it's Metaphysical
All history about every tribe, culture, tradition, civilization, etc, are all mystical in nature, all what we believed about religion, be it Christianity, Islam, or Traditional are all mystical. I'm not saying all these are %100 accurate, but some things cannot be changed no matter how hard we try too.

TAO11:


Thank you bro!

But I noticed bro that you appear to be waivering between two mutually exclusive thoughts.


You appear one one hand to be willing to concede that the story of the man Oduduwa literally dropping from the sky could not possibly have been "completely true" (or factual).

While you also on the other hand seem to want to (at the same time) hold on to the story as true, just because other people ("even the Bible" ) have some similar fantastic stories and lots of people do not contest these stories.

May be the story is true and may be it is not, but my argument is simply that we need to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE other cultures, religions, and civilizations also have similar fantastic stories which many people accept as true.

And also to stop saying that it is TRUE just BECAUSE it has been so passed down to us.

No, these two do not in any way constitute evidence upon which to really accept the story (or any story for that matter) as TRUE.

If the story is indeed true, then it should be because available EVIDENCE says so.

But unfortunately or fortunately, available EVIDENCE as examined by scholars of Yoruba History as shown demonstrably that that story, as it is, is actually not the case.

I hope to share some light below, in due course, on why this foregoing contrary conclusion is the case.

Cheers!

Toluobaeko11:

Every culture and civilizations on planet earth have what they believed in, even though it may sound foolish to other people, but it doesn't change the fact they believed in it. YES! I believed Oduduwa came from the sky, and I'll pass it to my unborn generation as it was passed down to me.

... If the story is indeed true, then it should be because available EVIDENCE says so.

But unfortunately or fortunately, available EVIDENCE as examined by scholars of Yoruba History as shown demonstrably that that story, as it is, is actually not the case.

I hope to share some light below, in due course, on why this foregoing contrary conclusion is the case.

Cheers!

MetaPhysical:
^^^
I will give you something to research for cevidence.

Few grains of sand has no significant weight value. But when you scoop up a bowl full the weight of sand suddenly becomes a significant material. We should have knowledge of such a constant part of our daily living. We walk on it daily, use it to cover seed in the ground which grows to become crop, we use it cover our remains after death....and many other uses. So, where did all the sand on earth come from? Can you tell?

TAO11:



Perhaps!

However, what is more important is that you cultivate a reading habit.

Readers are leaders!

Cheers.

geosegun:


Well articulated. I can attest to this %100.

TAO11:


Brother:

Frankly speaking, I'm not quite clear how your question here (about sand) addresses any of the above incontrovertible evidences (i.e. the ikedu tradition account, the archaeological evidence, and the historical evidence) that I have adduced to enable me reach the conclusion that the man Oduduwa didn't drop from the sky.

But in case you would be demonstrating how the answer to your question would tie in, then consider the following link which contains a quite clear scientific (and verifiable) explanation of what sand is, and where it comes from:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fikk3xQsT_Q

Cheers!

TAO11:


I know you must have skipped a heartbeat when you saw my comment, because I have already beaten you black and blue on another topic from where you quietly escaped to this one without uttering a word.

Now to your idiotic comment as it is typical of you:

Nigeria was a colony of Britain, hence Nigerians speak English language alongside our indigenous languages.

Tell us which of your fictitious and imaginary so-called "Benin kingdom colonies" speak Edo language alongside its own language(s). Bring your PROOF!!

Nay! On the contrary, Benin kingdom was a colony of Ife as we've seen many evidence of that. One of the most prominent of the evidence been that Yoruba language was spoken alongside Edo language in Benin kingdom. I have demonstrated this above with historical evidence.

The Yorubas emancipated your ancestors from the dungeon and shackles of Igodomigodo. We scrapped your archaic monarchy called Ogiso, we introduced a relatively "modern" monarchy to you, called Oba. We introduced the concept of crown to you, and much more.

I wonder what your degenarating condition would have been today had the light from Ife not shone on your ancestors and liberated them from the shackles and savagery of Igodomigodo.

You're only seeking relevance for your pathetic and frustrated soul, and you do so with lies, after which you always quietly exit when given the adequate harsh and embarrassing treatment which you deserve and always seek.

Lastly, it is only fair that I should assist your case by mentioning to you how urgently you need to see a psychiatrist.

It is obvious from my exchange with you that you're battling delusion of grandeur. I pray that you find help before you're consumed by it.


Mind you, I'm still waiting for you on the other post from where you ran down here.

There is a home-work which you haven't submitted, a home-work from which you fled.

Till then,

Cheers!

MetaPhysical:


I believe in my first response two or three days ago I stated the position that some phenomenons in life are just what they are and serve as articles of faith for people who hold belief in them. Not every area of human endeavor need an evidence or a inquisition and we must not dismiss such areas we fail to match evidence as untruthful or non relevant. They are safe harbors for a tradition and its culture. Leave people to their belief.

There are many cultures who believe in earth and worship it. So my question to you on sand is very related in terms of your goal to match a tangible belief to its intangible root. It is deducible.

If you can match evidence of source to the sand material then you can match evidence of truthfullness in Oduduwa's descent. Recall that Oduduwas is reputed to have brought with him a shellfull of sand. Or did you forget that?

We dont have Oduduwa to query for where he came from....but we have sand everywjere and can inquire its root.

Your return that you did not see how the two relate or that you do not understand me exposes your lack of depth in the broad angle of encounters of the subject of Oduduwa. Try harder.

gregyboy:


There is nothing original to the yorubas....in history most of the yoruba culture today 40% were influence by the northerners 30% from edos 20% from the britsh if you like disprove i will then elaborate for your understanding....

On the aspect of speaking yoruba in the palace will be correct the benins was an empire comparising of different ethnic group such as igbos who was once the military commander in edo, obaseki whos origin could be trace to ondo,
Itsekiris,ijaws,kogis so they were many speakers of tgis various dialect in edo but benin was the majour language

On the other hand Oduduwa sculpture is seen to be wearing a rounded bead on his neck and also hand beads which are is an unusual culture for the yorubas coincidenterly benins claims they lost a prince lets assume benins never found this prince but with this description of oduduwas sculpture wont it be save in a sane clime to believe the benins are correct unlike the story of oduduwa from mecca ....lol

The word oba was popularise to the yorubas by the british because of similarities they found
between some yoruba's monarch and the benin monarchs so they decide to ascribe the Benin title oba to describe all yoruba monarchs still the yorubas never gave up thier original title but instead are making tautology by calling themselves oba(king) and thier original title which also means king to adress themselves

MetaPhysical:
First, the video you shared of where sand came from is not a serious submission to reference. Thats too casual an explanation for origin of sand, given that when we wake from sleep there is even traceable particles of sand left on the sheets for someone hundreds of miles away from the beach. But lets even leave that to the side.

This discussion of finding truth in Oduduwa's descent is what, as I said earlier, a belief tradition. I will give a couple of belief traditions that are similar.

A child was born of a virgin
A man's wooden rod turned to serpent
A man was swallowed by whale but lived
A man was thrown into fire and not burnt
A man died on earth & ascended heaven
A man descended from heaven to earth

All these are parallels but each one is a contradiction to logic. Are they true? Is there evidence to support their truth? Yet every year people worship based on these myths....and will vontinue to do so into eternity.


Humanity and advanced civilizations have exended vast knowledge inquiring about mysteries of life and discovering their beginnings or even the truthfullness behind them....yet we have not discarded the belief of a wood that turned to snake and devoured other snakes. Nor have we stopped to honor and revere a man that survived many days in the belly of a fish that swallowed him.

The belief that Oduduwa descended from heaven lives on as a MYTH.