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If Nothing Can Exist Without A Creator, So What Created God? / What created God ? A Response To Atheist Question / Who Created God? - An Invalid Question (2) (3) (4)
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Re: Who Created God? by Blabbermouth: 6:20pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
XxSabrinaxX:The "Who created God" question is the only part i'm concerned with. I see you've admitted so, its sorted out. To the other bullshit, It isnt my concern for now, I am not the one proving God to you, all you want is to drag me into the mud and play dirty with you. Sorry milady, I don't have time for that now. Lemme fire a shot, Before the 13.8 billion years (whatsoever), was the gravitational singleton still present? PS: "I don't know" is allowed. |
Re: Who Created God? by jamesid29(m): 7:46pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
After going through the thread, I would like to suggest to Mr shadeyinka, if you can, to take the high road and let the conversation die a natural death. I may not agree with you on some of the statements you have made but any honest person reading this thread would agree that the people you're engaging with really do not understand the subject matter well enough to make and follow through with meaningful counter claims. All we can see is half baked counter claims sprinkled with mockery,name calling and assertions of superior intellect. It's mind boggling to have a statement like this Good lord! Why don't you go and get a degree in Physics prior to talking such nonsense?In the same post, a statement like this is made: The cosmos may be a closed system from which the Big Bang emerged. Where does the cosmos come from? I could be wrong but I personally don't see any reason to continue the conversation. 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 8:13pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
jamesid29:I could also be wrong or maybe i'm off my hinges but i don't understanding your point or the contradiction you're trying to highlight. Please clarify. Thank you. |
Re: Who Created God? by jamesid29(m): 9:14pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
TheArranger:Oh sorry, my bad. The point I was trying to make was; if you follow the conversations and get to post I took the highlights from, you'd see d poster fumbled with their understanding of what the word cosmos means( at least in the context it was been used), but just read down a couple of lines in the same post and the same poster is quick to tell someone else to shut up and go learn physics. Was just trying to butress the point of how the counter claims were more of mockery and name calling than any other thing. |
Re: Who Created God? by TVSA: 9:47pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
jamesid29:I don't get what you're trying to say. Is it the grammar or what? |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 9:56pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
XxSabrinaxX:If Theists have taken your kind of position, I think Atheists would have cried fowl. If I get you right, your position seem to be asserting the Agnostics position of "No one knows" and probably want everyone to take the same stance with you. I honestly believe that a true Agnostic need not take sides either with either the Theists nor the Atheists; for both the Atheists and the Theists take a gnostic position. Unfortunately, Agnostics come online feigning Atheism and using Science as a bases to knock down Theism. It isn't proper to claim Agnostic yet arguing as an Atheist. It is only proper then for people like me to take such Agnostic person and treat him exactly like I would have treated a full blown Atheist. That aside (knowing your position of "I don't know" ![]() Let's pick issues between Atheists and Theists. 1. Thesists: God created the Universe Atheists: The Universe created itself 2. Theists: The Universe has a beginning Atheists: The universe had always existed 3. Theists: The BBT show that the universe is almost 14 Billion years Atheists: The Universe had always existed as a gravitational singleton. 4. Thesists: Something from the outside initiated the change in state of the gravitational singleton: that Something is God Atheists: The universe could have been re-occuring as an infinite regression 5. Theists: Infinite regression is impossible with respect to the origin of the universe. There must be a "first cause": God Atheists: The "first cause" needn't be a personality but a Force/Field/Energy 6. Theists: But the DNA is a kind of computer code. It requires an intelligent programmer Atheists: The program of the DNA came about by pure statical accident of chemical reactions 7. Theists: Given infinite number of arrangements of the alphanumeric characters, can a computer code be created? Atheists:?? 8. Theists: Consciousness/Awareness is a kind of computer AI Programming on the biological hardware Atheists: Consciousness is not well understood but it is just chemicals acting on the brain. 9. Theists: Consciousness/Awareness require the personality to be able to feel both discomfort and pleasure AND volition to decide or choose preferences. Chemicals cannot cause this Atheists: ?? By 5, the Atheists admits that there could be something (but not God). Until that Atheists can answer 7 and 9 convincingly, God is established as the SOURCE. XxSabrinaxX:A Design, need a designer until it can be shown that the converse is possible.In a design, we see interrelated systems that can't exist without the other e.g key and padlock, house and roof XxSabrinaxX:You don't need to believe in anything other than, "there is a Prime Mover/Source of everything. XxSabrinaxX:There are indeed many gods but one creator. And it is understandable the position of science since science is in three Dimension while the gods are in higher dimensions. XxSabrinaxX:An agnostic should be a seeker of the truth and must refrain from taking gnostic positions. I think we should allow this thread to close. Cheers |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 10:02pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
Vic2Ree:Raving up and down, all the noise with no direction or purpose. SMH! Since you've not added to knowledge, this thread is closed ( from my side) |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 10:03pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
LordReed:I leave that to you! It's easy to find a rebuttal isn't to? But you don't need to. See you another time |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 10:05pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
jamesid29:I agree with you sir. |
Re: Who Created God? by LordReed(m): 10:13pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
shadeyinka: LMFAO! You have no dignity. You could have just gracefully admitted that you goofed but you had to drag yourself through the mud didn't you. Bwahahahaha! 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by niyidenrele: 10:27pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
How do you expect to know the origin of the supernatural that creates your brain , using same brains he has created??..the Bible says ,in the book of Ecclesiastes that ,I had set eternity in the hearts of men so that they will not understand what God has created from the beginning to end ...what keep making the sun shining over a million of years ago without tiredness of shinning?..what stop the ocean from coverings up all the Earth land areas despite the news of Stormy winds almost every years ,? What stops the planets from collisions course with each other since and what design the human body in such a way as to stand aloof ??... please Mr Atheist using the Atheist knowledge provide the answers 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by niyidenrele: 10:28pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
How do you expect to know the origin of the supernatural that creates your brain , using same brains he has created??..the Bible says ,in the book of Ecclesiastes that ,I had set eternity in the hearts of men so that they will not understand what God has created from the beginning to end ...what keep making the sun shining over a million of years ago without tiredness of shinning?..what stop the ocean from coverings up all the Earth land areas despite the news of Stormy winds almost every years ,? What stops the planets from collisions course with each other since and what design the human body in such a way as to stand aloof ??... please Mr Atheist using the Atheist knowledge provide the answers. . |
Re: Who Created God? by niyidenrele: 10:28pm On Sep 28, 2019 |
How do you expect to know the origin of the supernatural that creates your brain , using same brains he has created??..the Bible says ,in the book of Ecclesiastes that ,I had set eternity in the hearts of men so that they will not understand what God has created from the beginning to end ...what keep making the sun shining over a million of years ago without tiredness of shinning?..what stop the ocean from coverings up all the Earth land areas despite the news of Stormy winds almost every years ,? What stops the planets from collisions course with each other since and what design the human body in such a way as to stand aloof ??... please Mr Atheist using the Atheist knowledge provide the answers... |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 7:18am On Sep 29, 2019 |
LordReed: jamesid29: |
Re: Who Created God? by LordReed(m): 10:57am On Sep 29, 2019 |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 11:07am On Sep 29, 2019 |
Honestly shadeyinka , you should not have disturb yourself by arguing with these ingrates,. This is a saying that says don't argue with a fool because you will both become a fool Let them believe if they want, but I'm sure the atheist wannabe guys , will have sense when they encounter problem which science cannot handle So just leave them, you have done your best, 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 2:20pm On Sep 29, 2019 |
ElidaxZiel:Thanks so much. I've actually terminated my discuss with them on this topic. They feign superior intellect with sound Scientific backing: I just wanted to show how empty they really are. Shalom! 2 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by malvisguy212: 9:01pm On Sep 29, 2019 |
shadeyinka:indeed they are really empty. bless you my brother 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 11:49am On Sep 30, 2019 |
@SHADEYINKA Just a little food for thought here. * I am NOT a scientist * I am NOT a physicist * I am NOT an astrophysicist * I am NOT a cosmologist * I am NOT a mathematician * I am NOT a biologist * I am NOT a chemist * I am NOT a geologist * I am NOT a historian * I am NOT a psychologist * I am NOT a sociologist What I am is a young secondary school English teacher who lives a comfortable and happy life with my amazing wife. And I also happen to be an atheist after finally being able to escape the bonds of my religious indoctrination within the last couple of years. Now speaking of my atheism, here is something that may interest you a bit. While i do have some amount of interest in those fields of study listed above, i am not anywhere near an expert in any of them in any way, shape or form. For the most part, i have only a basic knowledge and a general understanding of many of those subjects, as they appeal to the "nerdy side" of my limited intellect. More importantly, however, (pay attention, because this is the important part) my being an atheist is independent of any of those fields of study. About the only thing any of those disciplines do is to help me reinforce the reasons i do not believe in your god or any other gods. So that being said, i think it is great if you happen to have advanced studies or a degree in one or more of those fields. Fantastic. Good for you. I happen to enjoy learning about and discussing various things in some of those areas myself. What i find hilarious, however, is how you and other such theists attack us atheists, spouting all types of "advanced" science/physics/cosmology and such, and then try to claim some sort of victory for your god when most of us are unable to counter your psychobabble. It truly is amusing on many levels. 1. As i've already stated, my being an atheist is NOT dependent on science. 2. If you are trying to use science to convince me and others that your god is real, you have lost before you even started. 3. I have lost count of how many times i've seen other theists on this same forum attack atheists saying that science cannot be used to prove god exists. 4. If your god is so very interested in his human pets knowing about cosmology, physics, biology, physiology and such, then perhaps he should have inducted some of those things in that "perfect book" he divinely inspired. (Then again, i suppose talking about clothing made of fibres was more important). 5. Isn't your using science to try to prove your god is real actually going AGAINST the whole concept of faith? Seems to me that is a bit blasphemous. Basically, if you're trying to use science to prove your god into existence, then i suggest you join your friends over at the christian chatbox thread or whatever. No doubt they will hang on every word you say. Going to the non-christian thread, however, or running into atheists in a random thread, i'm afraid you will find the gullibility factor WAAAY too low for your tastes. Nice try though 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 12:01pm On Sep 30, 2019 |
Well there you go, Shadeyinka! Now I know your first big problem and why this argument has been total bunkum. Let's go through your post, shall we? (By the way, apologies for all the late responses. I'm kind of pursuing something big IRL so please pray for me ![]() shadeyinka:Chicken, capon! What a goose! Don't mind me, i'm just crying fowl laugh @red fowl= any bird foul= bad, under-handed or awful Free vocabulary lesson, you're welcome, but you have to admit I was right to mock you ![]() Anyways, on a more serious note, when atheists state their single viewpoint on this site, most theists do more than cry foul! They insult, insinuate, preach and condemn. They have been known to wilfully distort the truth and they declare atheists to be "dishonest" without reasonable explanation. You remain lower than a dog turd in my eyes until your apology is made. asserting the "no one knows" position of agnostics and probably want everyone to take the same stance with youShadeyinka, I frequently describe myself as an agnostic atheist. This is because I both do not believe the assertion that gods exist AND I admit I have no way to know if they do or not. Pay attention to my use of the words believe and know! They are different things! I, along with many others, define a/theism as a belief or lack of belief in god(s). Additionally, a/gnosticism is about knowledge i.e knowing about the existence or non-existence of god(s). For example, a christian who follows Pascal's wager, (A doubting Thomas) is in fact an Agnostic Christian! Thus, are you asserting that, despite the definitions I have provided above, I cannot be both atheist and agnostic, hmm? I honestly believe that a true Agnostic need not take sides1> You have committed a No True Scotsman fallacy (look it up). 2> There is no such thing as "a fake agnostic". One is either agnostic about X, Y or Z, or one is not. The word has a very simple meaning: It comes from the Greek word "gnosis" which simply means "knowledge" and "a" which means "without". It has nothing to do with belief and is not restricted to religious knowledge. E.g. I am agnostic about alien visitation I.E I don't know. 3> A person may both be atheist AND agnostic. I demonstrated this above. I do not believe in god(s) BUT I do not claim to KNOW there is/are no god(s). 4> You have continuously proven yourself to be an ignoramus, seeming to be lacking even the ability to use a dictionary. 5> Quad Erat Demonstradum! Unfortunately, agnostics come here feigning atheism and use science as a bases (basis............write out 100 times) to knock down TheismThis is another mistaken generalisation. As far as I have witnessed for close to one year on this forum, most atheists don't use science to knock down theism if only because most professed theists do not understand how the scientific method works and seem impervious to any explanation. Thus, some atheists use history, some prefer philosophy and so on. Mine mostly depends on who I'm engaging in argument. It is logically possible to find the truth if one desiresIt may be. We don't know. All we can seem to assert is that the truth may be out there. That's why we keep looking. (Well, some of us. Others are crouched on their knees in dark candle lit rooms, believing in and practicing magic rituals) "I don't know" seems to be a path of easy escape for anyone who refuse to exercise the use of simpleYou could not be more wrong. One of the people on this site professing to know things that they cannot possibly know is YOU! "I don't know" is the path to exploration, inquiry, mystery and eventually, DISCOVERY. Pretending you know an answer is just delusion. Supporting your delusional answer with more delusion only succeeds in proving you are deluded. Get some basic integrity! Let's pick some issues between Atheists and TheistsSure, Let's do that. 1. Theists: God created the universeOK. FIRST OF ALL, you've committed a false dichotomy fallacy! We have many more options than that: A> God created the universe B> The universe created itself C> The universe always existed D> The Big Bang was just one of many Big Bangs E> A steady state universe F> Eternal Inflation Level II Universe G> Oscillating universe H> A computer simulation universe I> A holographic universe J> A multi-dimensional universe Bla Bla Bla... SECOND OF ALL, the way this simplistic argument is posed reveals an inherent weakness in the theist view, besides not understanding atheism. Theist thought is so imbued by the idea of a god figure that even when expressing their version of the atheist view, they can not help but replace their god with another power image, in this case: The Universe. I do not recall ever hearing an atheist state the "univese created itself" as an axiom. I personally only use that clause to counter theists' special pleading, argumentum ad ignorantiam riddled "God created himself" argument. The universe is not an entity, a personality, or replacement for a god. It is a material place, subject to elemental forces of nature, apparently immeasurable in dimension and in Newtonian time. It currently defies total and complete understanding by the practice of science, and especially religion, but as science has only been free to investigate reality for a mere four hundred years at best, it has revealed a great deal in a relatively short time just how and what those elemental forces have produced. Much is yet to be gleaned but this does not negate the value of what has so far been discovered. Even Lemaitre, the catholic priest who mathematically created the original concept of the Big Bang pointedly warned the Vatican not to publicly use his theory as proof of biblical creation. He understood one was a mathematical scientific theory and the other to be a belief! 2. Theists: The universe has a beginningYou have now committed the strawman fallacy (are you keeping score?)! You can not know either assertion. I think science currently leans towards the universe having an origin but that says nothing about the cosmos. Universe is local time and local creation. From what or where no one can actually say! Your numbers 3, 4, 5 have thus, all been addressed. Conclusion: They are bunkum/garbage. 6. Theists: The DNA is a kind of computer code. It requires an Intelligent Programmer.It is about time you got it into your thick head that atheists hold no dogmatic opinion on DNA. You might want to talk to a biologist. What can easily be discovered is this (any biological website can and WILL tell you the same): DNA is a chemical reaction just like every other chemical reaction known to mankind "The core argument of Stephen Meyer's book, Signature in a Cell, written in advocacy of intelligent design, is this: DNA is a code and a computer instruction is a code. Since computer code requires an intelligent designer, and DNA is a code, it follows that DNA is a product of, or is controlled by, an intelligent designer." https://www.science20.com/chatter_box/dna_when_code_not_code This argument has no foundation if one does not accept its basic premise: that DNA is a code, that computer instruction is a code, and that the term "code" is applicable in exactly the same way to both uses. In short, you are committing an equivocation fallacy: the word "code" is used one way for systems like computer programming or the Morris code, an d in a completely different way for biology. For this reason, your number 7 is completely INVALID. I have explained enough and shown (via links) enough to illustrate why this DNA drivel is DOA (Dead On Arrival) and is one of the most debunked and/or derided theist arguments. But knowing you, you'll continue to ask that inane question till the end of time because you are invulnerable to reason. 9. Theists: Consciousness/Awareness requires the personality to be able to feel both discomfort and pleasure and volition. Chemicals cannot cause thisHave you never seen people turn aggressive under the influence of alchol or drugs? Altering their emotions and making them take decisions without their full control? When my brother drinks, he becomes more intelligent, good looking, and great at singing, but some people turn nasty. A drunk guy once punched my bro in the mouth in the middle of a beautiful rendition of "Africa" by Toto at a karaoke bar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTQbiNvZqaY Looking back, I think the chemicals affected his consciousness and his ability to enjoy great music. A Design needs a designer until it can be shown that the converse is possible. In a design, we see interrelated systems that can't exist without the other e.g. key and padlock, house and roof"A DeSiGn NeEdS a dEsIgNeR" and things that occur naturally do not. What's your point? You are also makingthe Begging the Question fallacy (still keeping scores, huh?). Design does not need a designer, it may need an observer. Designs occur in chaotic systems but if no one is there to notice, who will call it a design? You don't need to believe in anything other than, "there is a Prime Mover/Source of everything"I don't need to believe in that either. Why in the world would I believe in such nonsense without evidence? There are many gods one creatorHow in the f*ck would you know this? Gods are in higher dimensionsAgain, how in the f*ck would you know this? An agnostic should be a seeker of truth and must refrain from taking gnostic positionsYou mean positions like: 1> A design needs a designer? 2> You need to believe there is a prime mover (A source for everything?) 3> There are many gods but only one creator? 4> Science has three dimensions but gods live in higher dimensions? LOL. Oh kerist... the whole kit and caboodle of unfounded claims, faulty logic and unevidenced assertions by shadeyinka! This is the most idiotic drivel I have yet run accross on this site. My IQ dropped three points by just sitting here next to it. As I said earlier,.... what a goose! Actually my uttering of "capon", a fat, pompous neutered cockerel is a much better picture of this entire posting. Fowl play indeed! Cc. LordReed, Martinez39, Vic2Ree, budaatum, CAPSLOCKED 3 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 12:02pm On Sep 30, 2019 |
Blabbermouth:I don't know and I'm betting you don't either. You are just being disingenious. There are hypothesis all over the internet. Pick your poison - but don't believe it until evidence and facts support it! 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 12:02pm On Sep 30, 2019 |
jamesid29:Good day, sir! ![]() There is nothing to be confused about, y'hear? The cosmos MAY BE a closed system from which the Big Bang emerged! "The universe is an open or closed system in the thermodynamics sense of the terms. The universe is open if it is affected by something outside of it. (Cosmos) If there is no outside of it then obviously it is a closed system. I think most people define "universe" in terms that require it to be a closed system, though a few people (i.e. brane-world string theorists) use the term somewhat differently." Source: https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-the-universe-an-open-or-a-closed-system.255948/ Read VERY carefully. Closed systems cannot exchange matter with the surroundings, but can exchange energy. Isolated systems can exchange neither matter nor energy with their surroundings, and as such are only theoretical and do not exist in reality (except, possibly, the entire universe). You cannot just know the things you profess to know. You cannot know anything about the cosmos. You cannot yet know if our universe is an open or closed system. The final results are not yet in. I cited this with articles. It is not my fault that NOBODY is opting to read them. There is only one person on this thread making inane assertions and I know who that person is......... 1 Like |
Re: Who Created God? by LordReed(m): 12:31pm On Sep 30, 2019 |
XxSabrinaxX: It doesn't take a big brain to understand this simple thing but even after breaking it into little ity-bity steps they still hold on to false knowledge like a drowning man clutches straws. 2 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 5:46pm On Sep 30, 2019 |
Hello my Sister in the Lord! It's a long time indeed and I had terminated my long speeches on this thread for a number of reasons. 1. I saw that my postulates required some understanding of basic computer programming, electronics, physics combined with a little dose of logics to make sense either for a solid rebuttal or corrections or affirmation. 2. It seems most here are either more familiar with the humanities, biological sciences or the arts (of course we can't all sleep and face the same direction) 3. Apart from the normal atheistic hyena-like behaviours when making fun at theists, there was nothing really much equivalent counter-knowledge. 4. The average Atheist read much more than the average Theist, so I assumed that you would be able to rethink my postulations. Unfortunately, I over estimated your comprehension of things you have read. Thanks so much for the spelling errors correction: how I got to this level is a marvel to me too. By now I should still be repeating my SSCE English language 10-12 times. Thanks again! But let me make a little response to your claims (and you speak good English though: except when you get angry at a Theist) XxSabrinaxX:Have I in anyway behaved thus? If I have, it's not my nature: probably a slip on the flesh and I apologise! XxSabrinaxX:I very well understand you but I disagree with your submission. YOU say: 1. I both do not believe the assertion that gods exist AND 2. I admit I have no way to know if they do or not. Statement 1 make you an atheist BUT Statement 2 make you an agnostic The implication of statement 2 is that since you already admit that "there is no way to know" if gods exist or not, why argue with affirmation that "the gods do not exist". This to me is no more an agnostic position but a gnostic position. An agnostic Atheist truly have no basis for arguing with affirmation that "the gods don't exist" XxSabrinaxX:Unfortunately, my experience cannot convince you and I know that. So why assert that "I have experience" when it can at best be subjective. But, even though my subjective experience cannot convince you, you can't proof that my experience isn't real to me. But that is understandable: because I will still act with doubt if a person claims that he has seen "Big Foot". The only way I can logically reach an atheist isn't through my experience (which is real to me) but through science, logics and knowledge of electronics. However, "I know what I know"! It's you who don't know, so keep it that way. Atheists fault Thesists mainly on the basis of science and logics XxSabrinaxX: This is just a rush at judgement with no basis whatsoever. You know my English isn't that good! However the word Cosmos I think is a synonym of Universe. Scientifically, there is nothing outside the universe. The boundary of the universe extends from +infinity to -infinity. If God didn't create the Universe, Then it's either the Universe had always existed or the universe created itself. On this, every other argument can be built. XxSabrinaxX:You worry about the word "code" when every one who has written a computer program before understand the meaning as "Program" and not "Encryption". If you had a foggiest idea of computer program, your argument will certainly not go in this manner. It's one thing to say the DNA are chemicals but Programming can also be hard coded as logic gates within a computer. You have no idea of what you dispute against. Let me ask you a logics question: If we live in a 1D world, would we be able to comprehend a 2D world? In case we can't, can we conclude with certainty that a 2D world doesn't exist? 2 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by jamesid29(m): 3:29am On Oct 01, 2019 |
XxSabrinaxX:Good morning ma'am.... I don't think pointing to a post on another forum as your source can be considered authoritative . it's like me directing someone to a post on nairaland that says jubril is the president of Nigeria as authoritative information. Not saying physicsforum.com is a bad website or great answers can't be found there but like most public forums, it is open to opinions and speculations as well. Maybe a better source would have been physics stackexchange, mostly because of the restrictions placed on the way answers are given and their point based system. It's also not authoritative but it's a good place to start. Secondly, I did read the entire thread u cited and the same post u clipped ur snippet from goes on to say the universe is probably closed in answering the posters question. He only put the part u clipped out in other to break down what the OP was trying to mean by his question. This is the full part u clipped out for context. He's asking whether it's an open or closed system in the thermodynamics sense of the terms. The universe is open if it is affected by something outside of it. If there is no outside of it then obviously it is a closed system. I think most people define "universe" in terms that require it to be a closed system, though a few people (i.e. brane-world string theorists) use the term somewhat differently. For the purposes of your question, the answer is probably "closed". Source https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/is-the-universe-an-open-or-a-closed-system.255948/ Anybody can click the link to fact check me and probably just read the full answer. Thirdly ma'am, I wasn't weighing in on whether the universe is a closed system or not. Kindly read my explanation to thearranger for the highlights I originally made. I think u have a different understanding of the word cosmos. Either way, I'm not trying to get into a sparing contest. Regardless of what side of the divide we find ourselves on,we are first and foremost humans and all humans deserve to be treated with dignity and respect.That means, we might disagree on whether Jesus Christ is the creator of the cosmos or not but we can still disagree without demeaning one another. Enjoy the holiday ma'am and God bless. 2 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by shadeyinka(m): 2:18pm On Oct 01, 2019 |
TheArranger: This post skipped me probably because "shadeyinka" was capitalized. 1. I am not an expert it any of the fields you listed too but I read (or used to read a lot) almost every field of knowledge with the aim of compression for applications if necessary. So, we are somehow alike in that I used to be a teacher too. 2. It is impossible to use science to prove God. My aim really hadn't been that either. The best you can do is to use Science to show that an entity described as the "Creator" is a valid Scientific deduction. 3. Your definition of faith is amazingly skewed. Faith isn't a "blind believe" but a Trust in the attributes of a Personality. e.g. Trusting your wife not to commit adultery with someone else. A Christian trusting in God's integrity is Faith. This comes only by "knowing God" (at an experiencial level). 4. I think you Atheists are more guilty of what you accuse the Christians of doing. Atheists project the ridiculous religious faith that believe in a Deity that cannot be substantiated. If you are a Christian, what should be your line of defence especially when you know that it is impossible to use science to prove God? That exactly had been my stance here. I have not preached to anyone, I have simply just used my elementary readily available knowledge of several fields of science to show that what the Atheists deny could be more real than they hope to admit. 5. Please don't forget that there is no Atheists section of Nairaland. There is "Religion" with a sub-section "Religion for Muslims". Atheists come to the religious section even though they claim to be irreligious and make fun of Christians. What do you expect will be the response to such. 6. The Bible is simply a "Chronicle" of man's experience of Jehovah God. God neither dictated nor wrote any part of the Bible. God only inspired/moved the respective authors to put down in writing their experience and understanding of God's dealings with themselves and their people so that their descendants can learn. The Bible is neither a science book nor a book on philosophy but simply a Chronicle. Finally, let me give you a thought question. Suppose all humans live in a 1D world, would we be able co comprehend how life is in a 2 D world? If we can't, would this be sufficient to conclude that a 2D world cannot exist? 2 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by LordReed(m): 6:05pm On Oct 01, 2019 |
jamesid29: And how is a person speculating about the nature of the universe equivalent to someone insisting he knows the nature of the universe? |
Re: Who Created God? by TheArranger(m): 10:23am On Oct 02, 2019 |
SHADEYINKA I am a layman, so let me clarify this for you in my own way. There is no denial from any Atheists here. No atheist here is making a positive claim about anything. It's all in your head. What we're trying to tell you is very simple: If there is a source or initiator (and that's a big IF because we cannot be a 100% sure), you cannot just conclude that it is "a god". How do you know it isn't a race of intelligent cosmic entities we have no way of verifying? You have to accept that we cannot know everything. Your failure to provide objective proof of this "god" you keep inserting after a whooping six pages is evidence of that. You are displaying a bias towards one option and ruling out the rest based on nothing really. All your arguments use physics, which is still pure natural science. I'm not ready to engage in any pointless back and forth because it appears to me that you are just repeating the same thing over and over. It's of no use. Edit: There is a section for atheists actually. 4 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 10:56am On Oct 02, 2019 |
TheArranger:He has only been told this 25 times now. He does not give a sh*t. 3 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 10:58am On Oct 02, 2019 |
jamesid29:It isn't authoritative. However, it is a PHYSICS forum. That was the whole point. Anyone can go there and express what he/she likes, but shouldn't act like his claims are the objective fact when the results haven't been verified yet. Also, you do know what the word "probably" implies, right? Yep. It implies a percentage of uncertainty. Arguments have flown both ways for decades and no one has yet reached an agreed upon conclusion. Some theories require an Open universe and others a Closed universe. Choose your poison but do not pretend you have the only right answer. As for my approach in debates, i usually prefer calm discussions but i've realized that most theists (especially on NL), when engaged in arguments, employ annoying tactics such as evasion, distortion, projection, goal-post shifting, and the one that alarms me the most: committing glaring logical fallacies and waving them off like it's nothing! Thus, forgive me if I may seem under-handed in my approach but it has been my main policy since my first day on this website that I do NOT suffer fools. Call me harsh but "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen" as the saying goes. Oh, and a wonderful day to you too ![]() 3 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by Vic2Ree(m): 11:01am On Oct 02, 2019 |
TheArranger:LMFAO. The guy is a bare faced liar. His posts in this thread not only lack logic, they are extremely fallacious. He's just parroting arguments he has seen elsewhere, but was too ignorant to recognise as fallacious. Sabrina keeps turning him out but he just keeps on lying to try and save face. It's so obvious. I applaud everyone on this thread who was risked his/her IQ to debate this fraud. He's not prepared to stop lying and trolling. Most religious apologetics become tedious after a while, because of their level of close-mindedness, but his level of idiotic ignorance is a pointless waste of bandwidth. This is why I don't debate christians because they don't seem to understand what an argument from ignorance fallacy is 4 Likes |
Re: Who Created God? by Nobody: 11:14am On Oct 02, 2019 |
shadeyinka:Why must I do this 25 times for you? Atheism is not a belief. Atheism is not a position on the non-existence of god(s). Atheism does not hold the position, "god does not exist". Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s). Why is that so difficult for you to grasp? I am not aware of taking the position that a god does not exist. The position is, your claims of a first cause are unfounded! Agnostic noun A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of god(s) Atheism noun A person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of god or gods The two are not mutually exclusive. For some reason, many of your brethren make the same erroneous claim you have. Perhaps you're just too lazy to Google the two words, to learn the definition, huh? It's possible to be an agnostic and either believe or disbelieve in a deity. Though why anyone would believe a claim they admit they can know nothing about is puzzling. Agnosticism would be an epistemological necessity for me, on all unfalsifiable claims. As would withholding belief of course. It's worth noting here that most claims made about deities and religious beliefs are unfalsifiable, thus an apologist would have to properly and accurately define what they mean by a deity before I could know whether their position is an unfalsifiable one. However, at its broadest definition, it appears to be an unfalsifiable claim, thus I am both an agnostic and an atheist. If you have logical proof for the existence of a deity, you've managed to keep it very well hidden. I can find nothing on any news network about this paradigm shifting revelation. Probably because you've been talking nonsense if I'm being brutally honest. Thanks for the belly laughs anyway A.K.A The Argument from Personal Experience "YoU cAn'T pRoOf ThAt My ExPeRiEnCe IsN't ReAl To Me!" No one denies your experience, genius. Just your interpretation of the experience without facts or evidence. If you presented this argument in a syllogistic form, it would look like this: 1> My personal experience is infallible. 2> I have personally experienced a creator god. 3> Therefore, the creator god exists. You know what the beauty of science is, shadeyinka? The beauty is that it takes such inane assertion out of the realm of pure thought and puts them to the test. Without facts and/or evidence, there is never a reason for another human on the planet to believe you. No one argues that you did not have an experience. How do you know it is God, though? Why can't it be Satan convincing you it is God? How do you rule out insanity? You have literally nothing to base your supposition on but for the assertion "I think it was real". No one is calling you a liar. Have all the personal experiences you want. There is no reason for me to believe any of it. How do you know you are not being fooled? I don't know how well you can speak your native language, but I doubt you make much more sense in it than you do in English. You attempt to redefine words, mix up concepts and serve a magnificent word salad with no substance. In short, Tommyrot, Piffle, Waffle, Bilge. However the word Cosmos I think is a synonym of Universe. Scientifically, there is nothing outside the universe. The boundary of the universe extends from +infinity to -infinity.Universe refers to local matter and time while cosmos to everything beyond. The two words being used as synonyms helps to clarify terms. Not that your assertion here is wrong. Some theories use Universe for Cosmos and others seperate them as in the many dimensions model or the multiple Big Bang hypothesis Cc. Jamesid29 Herein lies the problem. If the universe is the cosmos and there is nothing more, the universe is everything. There is no outside. There is no cosmos. You have eliminated the possibility of your ultimate first cause! How does infinity have a creation? By its nature, infinity has no starting point. You understand infinity is a description and not a finite number, right? There is the infinity of all positive numbers. There is the infinity of all negative numbers. There is the infinity of all numbers positive and negative. All these infinities are the same size. In an infinite universe, there is no place for a god. Unless perhaps,.... you want to be a Hindu. Then, god is the universe playing hide and seek with himself. You are still stuck in a bipolar dualistic, this or that, phenomenology. This is a FALLACY! You are, quite simply, not including all possible options. Why can't the stuff of the universe always exist but the universe itself come into existence? In a closed universe, gravity eventually stops the expansion of the universe, after which it starts to contract until all matter in the universe collapses to a point, a final singularity termed the "Big Crunch", the opposite of the Big Bang. So the universe is in a state of constant birth and death over and over and over ad infinitum! You are limiting the possibilities by pretending you know something. Stop pretending and go do some research. Aaaand herein lies your problem. Again! We are not talking about computer programmers. It is an analogy! Biologists are attempting to demonstrate what they are talking about through analogy: a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. "An analogy between the workings of nature and those of human science". They are not the same thing but are analogous in some ways. READ THE ARTICLE: "First of all, argument by analogy always fails. Analogies are a teaching tool. They are used for describing a difficult concept to someone who has no experience with that concept. By relating that concept to something that they already understand, then they can begin to see how that concept works." "To a 5th grade student, I would make the analogy that DNA is like a blueprint. It tells the cells how to make proteins. I would never use that "DNA is like a blueprint" analogy in a discussion with anyone who had the least idea about what DNA actually is." https://www.skepticink.com/smilodonsretreat/2014/09/10/dna-is-not-like-a-computer/ Do yourself a favor and actually READ the article. You will not sound so ignorant afterwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XmhoLINJt0 And here's a Youtube video if you have trouble with the article. OR if you're still in doubt, try looking for a biology forum online and post this offal you call an argument. Then watch yourself get gang raped with HARD facts and evidence. Nuff said! SIDE NOTE: We all may have different ideas to the condition of the cosmos prior to the Big Bang or t=0, but that's NOT the damn point. The point is, you and your fellow clowns have to wedge your beliefs in where knowledge is limited by current understanding. But everytime we hit a tough spot, science answers it accurately, as opposed to religion, which has offered precisely..... f*ck all! You're the ones trying to invoke some pan dimensional cosmic overlord when we are perplexed by something, whereas most atheists will simply say, "let's look at the evidence!" and follow the causal links. The real reason you theists struggle on this site is because we play the game! You can only make useless inductive or abductive logical arguments and appeals to authority... no deductive arguments, no empirical or objective evidence. You try to get us to take the bait, but no! You WILL maintain the burden of proof, given the epic and gargantuan size of your nonsensical claims. So shadeyinka, how about, stop wasting our f*cking time and offer your best piece of evidence to support and/or verify the notion that YOUR god exists? Please do NOT bother quoting me on this thread unless you have some interest in honest cogent discourse, and are prepared to present your VERY UNDENIABLE EVIDENCE that YOUR god exists. At this stage, I REALLY can't afford to keep beating a dead horse. Cc. LordReed, TheArranger, Vic2Ree, Martinez39 4 Likes 1 Share |
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