I just watched a video and even though I don't subscribe to SCOAN and neither am I their member but I want a few of my friends to try to rationalize what has happened here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5pn0Fd8I1A

I tried to check his profile: Prof Ddembe Williams KCA University
cc:
LordReed
XxSabrinaxX
TheArranger
tintingz
Vic2Ree
capslock
Martinez39

This is not an Atheist-Theist argument, it's a post to rationalize the evidence presented.
Thanks

I fished in a pond with my net and the white owner came to collect the few fish from me. Suddenly, I saw from the sea behind the pond millions and millions of fish coming on dry land occupying the road where I was. I was amazed, I picked up one to show my friend...


Disregard: it's not for you

shadeyinka:
I just watched a video and even though I don't subscribe to SCOAN and neither am I their member but I want a few of my friends to try to rationalize what has happened here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5pn0Fd8I1A

I tried to check his profile: Prof Ddembe Williams KCA University
cc:
LordReed
XxSabrinaxX
TheArranger
tintingz
Vic2Ree
capslock
Martinez39

This is not an Atheist-Theist argument, it's a post to rationalize the evidence presented.
Thanks

Still watching the video.

Ok so I got the name spelling wrong.

LordReed:


Still watching the video.

Ok so I got the name spelling wrong.

No problem.

shadeyinka:

No problem.

I am not sure what to make of this. There isn't much to go on as a means of fact checking. The only non-SCOAN video I found of the man was published in July 2018 (in which he appears to be hale and hearty) and the SCOAN video September 2018 but there are no timelines to establish when the affliction started, how long it lasted and when he was apparently healed. Neither is there any accompanying health records that can be checked.

I really can't reach any conclusions except to say let's look more into it.

LordReed:


I am not sure what to make of this. There isn't much to go on as a means of fact checking. The only non-SCOAN video I found of the man was published in July 2018 (in which he appears to be hale and hearty) and the SCOAN video September 2018 but there are no timelines to establish when the affliction started, how long it lasted and when he was apparently healed. Neither is there any accompanying health records that can be checked.

I really can't reach any conclusions except to say let's look more into it.

Ok.
It's fair to look more into it.



However for me,
1. The man could either be feigning illness or not. If he's just acting, we can rubbish the whole act. But if he's not acting, it means what we witnessed is true
2. He seems to be legit. As in, he's a real professor at a University in Kenya.
3. I am wondering what he's supposed to gain by feigning illness that will defy medical expertise only to be healed in a church.
a. How much British Pounds could his acting and testimony worth?
b. His students and staff with the university must know about the illness because his testimony could easily lead to a termination of his appointment if found to be false: This information is on public domain.
4. However, if this problem is real, what happened?

shadeyinka:

Ok.
It's fair to look more into it.



However for me,
1. The man could either be feigning illness or not. If he's just acting, we can rubbish the whole act. But if he's not acting, it means what we witnessed is true
2. He seems to be legit. As in, he's a real professor at a University in UK.
3. I am wondering what he's supposed to gain by feigning illness that will defy medical expertise only to be healed in a church.
a. How much British Pounds could his acting and testimony worth?
b. His students and staff with the university must know about the illness because his testimony could easily lead to a termination of his appointment if found to be false: This information is on public domain.
4. However, if this problem is real, what happened?

What have we witnessed? A man claiming to be healed by prayer? If you saw me slap a man and he claims he was healed of cancer by my slap what would you say you witnessed?

KCA University is in Kenya not UK.

People do things for all sorts of reasons that are not limited to financial gain and motivations may be as different as humans are different.

His ailment may indeed be atested to by his students and colleagues but he may very well claim he never let any of them know the severity of his ailment.

Remission of symptoms/ailments/diseases is not a new phenomenon. It is still a mystery why and how it does happen because they occur in so many differing circumstances that there is no consensus as to the cause.

LordReed:


What have we witnessed? A man claiming to be healed by prayer? If you saw me slap a man and he claims he was healed of cancer by my slap what would you say you witnessed?

KCA University is in Kenya not UK.

People do things for all sorts of reasons that are not limited to financial gain and motivations may be as different as humans are different.

His ailment may indeed be atested to by his students and colleagues but he may very well claim he never let any of them know the severity of his ailment.

Remission of symptoms/ailments/diseases is not a new phenomenon. It is still a mystery why and how it does happen because they occur in so many differing circumstances that there is no consensus as to the cause.

I've corrected it. KCA university is in Kenya my error.

At least we can agree on these

1. It's either the prof is acting or not
2. If the Prof is acting, then, it's a shame both on him and the pastor claiming to heal him.
3. If it is not an act, the question is, What happened?

shadeyinka:

Ok.
It's fair to look more into it.



However for me,
1. The man could either be feigning illness or not. If he's just acting, we can rubbish the whole act. But if he's not acting, it means what we witnessed is true
2. He seems to be legit. As in, he's a real professor at a University in Kenya.
3. I am wondering what he's supposed to gain by feigning illness that will defy medical expertise only to be healed in a church.
a. How much British Pounds could his acting and testimony worth?
b. His students and staff with the university must know about the illness because his testimony could easily lead to a termination of his appointment if found to be false: This information is on public domain.
4. However, if this problem is real, what happened?

Anybody can be a miracle syndicate for a church.

There are no much details to suggest this man was actually sick or he has already recovered before this event.

shadeyinka:

I've corrected it. KCA university is in Kenya my error.

At least we can agree on these

1. It's either the prof is acting or not
2. If the Prof is acting, then, it's a shame both on him and the pastor claiming to heal him.
3. If it is not an act, the question is, What happened?

I'd rather say the prof had either a sincere or an insincere experience.

If the prof is insincere then shame on him and the pastor. Though pastor may not be complicit in the prof's insincerity.

If it was a sincere experience then we did need to find out what happened.

tintingz:


Anybody can be a miracle syndicate for a church.

There are no much details to suggest this man was actually sick or he has already recovered before this event.

Hm!
Your approach is that:
Everyone is evil and guilty until proven otherwise!
That include you too Mr Tintingz

Do you perchance give any benefit of the doubt that the prof is sincere?

LordReed:


I'd rather say the prof had either a sincere or an insincere experience.

If the prof is insincere then shame on him and the pastor. Though pastor may not be complicit in the prof's insincerity.

If it was a sincere experience then we did need to find out what happened.

This is fair!
Although as humans, we don't do any major thing for nothing: money, pleasure, satisfaction...etc.

A way to go is to look for the motive

shadeyinka:

Hm!
Your approach is that:
Everyone is evil and guilty until proven otherwise!
That include you too Mr Tintingz

Do you perchance give any benefit of the doubt that the prof is sincere?

If you're suspected of an action, you're not guilty yet until proven guilty or you're guilty until proven innocent.

There are no much details, medical history about this man, we can't use this as a form of some evidence.

tintingz:


If you're suspected of an action, you're not guilty yet until proven guilty or you're guilty until proven innocent.

There are no much details, medical history about this man, we can't use this as a form of some evidence.

And if there is medical history, it could be forged...

But I asked a question: given a benefit of the doubt, what would be your conclusion?

shadeyinka:

And if there is medical history, it could be forged...

But I asked a question: given a benefit of the doubt, what would be your conclusion?

I can't conclude base on few information.

tintingz:


I can't conclude base on few information.

Ok. There'll be another time.

@shadeyinka

I would have loved to give my opinion on the healing but since it's for a few selected friends to respond to,I would restrain myself except permitted

triplechoice:
@shadeyinka

I would have loved to give my opinion on the healing but since it's for a few selected friends to respond to,I would restrain myself except permitted

Oh please fire on.
I will like to have your views

shadeyinka:

Oh please fire on.
I will like to have your views

I have watched the video and I have no doubt that the man received a healing

TB Joshua has gone past the point of stage managing miracles.He does not need to do that anymore

Now let's go to the main thing.What is the cause of the healing?

Science has explained that if anyone sufficiently believes without any iota of doubt that something or someone can heal them it actually can result in a healing Studies undertaking to understand how the placebo effect work has proven this time and time again.So there is no doubt that people can get healing through faith.I have had that sort of faith before and got healed

However , science says such healing does not confirm the existence of God.The placebo does not contain anything that can result in healing but people who take them get cured because they are made to think (believe)they are taking the real thing
So it doesn't matter what you believe in . whether your God exist or not as long as you have any such strong believe it can result in a healing or can be of help in any other situation

Did the Prof got healed yes .How ?,by believing that TB Joshua can heal him.But does TB Joshua posses such powers?

triplechoice:


I have watched the video and I have no doubt that the man received a healing

TB Joshua has gone past the point of stage managing miracles.He does not need to do that anymore

Now let's go to the main thing.What is the cause of the healing?

Science has explained that if anyone sufficiently believes without any iota of doubt that something or someone can heal them it actually can result in a healing Studies undertaking to understand how the placebo effect work has proven this time and time again.So there is no doubt that people can get healing through faith.I have had that sort of faith before and got healed

However , science says such healing does not confirm the existence of God.The placebo does not contain anything that can result in healing but people who take them get cured because they are made to think (believe)they are taking the real thing
So it doesn't matter what you believe in . whether your God exist or not as long as you have any such strong believe it can result in a healing or can be of help in any other situation

Did the Prof got healed yes .How ?,by believing that TB Joshua can heal him.But does TB Joshua posses such powers?

This your post is way lot better in position than our last engagement which was upon hypnosis versus deliverance and I appreciate that.

I know that your picture of God isn't the conventional (like us church people will believe). However, a starting point t is to know that
1. Spirits exist.
Spirits are beings of non Physical dimensions. They are intelligent, emotional and possess most attributes of human beings (I believe that human attributes are derivatives/immitiation of their emotional, intellectual and attributes)
2. God is a Spirit:
Yes God is Spirit: and hence has attributes of a living being and NOT just a force. God is the PRIMARY SPIRIT and the source of all other spirit s.
3. Angels are Spirits:
Angels are created spirits for the purpose of serving God.
4. Satan is a spirit:
Satan was an angel who rebelled against God with at least a third of the angels of God. The rebellious angels are called fallen angels
5. Demons are spirits:
Demons are hybrids between fallen angels and human spirits. They are neither human nor angels. They are malevolent in nature: very similar to microbes to living tissue.
6. Humans are Spirits:
Humans are also spirits but a hybrid of both Physical (animal) and Spiritual. The only issue is that human spirit is SICK(PARALYSIS ) because of contamination with spiritual pathogen (seems similar to HIV)

I had to go through the lenthy explanation to lay the foundation of the next presentation.

Now back to your explanation of healing by faith.
Faith itself is NOT Believing.
Faith is ACTING based on TRUST in God's integrity.

What heals is when a Spirit acts on the Physical is such a way as to suspend the normal laws of nature. It's not WILL POWER of BELIEVING something.

Some humans are more like conduits for "a spirit" to act. I want to believe that T.B. Joshua is one of such.

A baby can be healed through spiritual intervention but I'm sure you won't attribute such healings to faith from the baby.

[quote author=shadeyinka post=84503815]
This your post is way lot better in position than our last engagement which was upon hypnosis versus deliverance and I appreciate that.

This topc is a different one entirely so I have responded based on what is before me


I know that your picture of God isn't the conventional (like us church people will believe). However, a starting point t is to know that
1. Spirits exist.
Spirits are beings of non Physical dimensions. They are intelligent, emotional and possess most attributes of human beings (I believe that human attributes are derivatives/immitiation of their emotional, intellectual and attributes)
2. God is a Spirit:
Yes God is Spirit: and hence has attributes of a living being and NOT just a force. God is the PRIMARY SPIRIT and the source of all other spirit s.

I do not agree with the above.Thete is no evidence of a singular entity called God if there is, it is not know.What some of us know or refer to as God is the unseen energy which pervades all of existence.


3. Angels are Spirits:
Angels are created spirits for the purpose of serving God.
4. Satan is a spirit:


There is no entity called Satan

Satan was an angel who rebelled against God with at least a third of the angels of God. The rebellious angels are called fallen angels
5. Demons are spirits:
Demons are hybrids between fallen angels and human spirits. They are neither human nor angels. They are malevolent in nature: very similar to microbes to living tissue.

Well ,even if they exist why should I bother about them when they do not affect me in anyway.I am more interested in dealing with humans I can see physically


6. Humans are Spirits:
Humans are also spirits but a hybrid of both Physical (animal) and Spiritual. The only issue is that human spirit is SICK(PARALYSIS ) because of contamination with spiritual pathogen (seems similar to HIV)

It's unfortunate that your religious indoctrination has made you accept what is not true about yourself, Man as spirit occupying a physical body is not sick.We share the same attributes with the divine . However due to the limitations of the physical body we are not aware of this or find it difficult to accept our divine nature.But we can learn to operate from our position as spirit-beings occupying a physical body if we know how.The how of this is not taught within most religion.Jesus did not come to die for anybody sin but to teach just like himsel thatf we are one with God,spirit or whatever you choose to call it hence the statement

"The kingdom of God is within you'


I had to go through the lenthy explanation to lay the foundation of the next presentation.

Now back to your explanation of healing by faith.
Faith itself is NOT Believing.
Faith is ACTING based on TRUST in God's integrity.

It's difficult to have faith in a God you have not experienced.Beleve is always the starting point and with experience comes faith


What heals is when a Spirit acts on the Physical is such a way as to suspend the normal laws of nature. It's not WILL POWER of BELIEVING something.

But the Bible says "if ye believe......

However ,there is an element of truth in what you have said.Spirit acts on the physical but this action is always activated by something . Thought in the form of strong belief is one of the things that can result in it's activation.This is the real cause for the placebo effect which science is battling to understand.Science is not interested in the spiritual so it's understandable why they ignore the action of spirit


Some humans are more like conduits for "a spirit" to act. I want to believe that T.B. Joshua is one of such.

Everyone can act as conduit for spirit.Even atheist who do not believe in any God are doing this through self believe and achieving results

If TB Joshua is a conduit for healing powers of an almighty God what is happening to others whofailed to receive healingl. is the power of God limited?


A baby can be healed through spiritual intervention but I'm sure you won't attribute such healings to faith from the baby.


A baby is yet to have control over its mind and can be easily influenced by external circumstances so it's possible for a baby to receive healing through suggestions made by someone through prayer

Please if you have a baby that you believe is I'll the best place to go is an hospital.There is no way the pastor can know exactly what is wrong with the baby.If you pray for the baby how can you confirm the healing is complete .Would a child yet to talk confirm this for you.Its madness for anyone to take their baby to a church for prayers instead of an hospital
Even TB Joshua does not encourage this.I know this from family members and friends who attend the synagogue.If you carry a baby there for healing you will directed to immediately see a doctor.You can confirm from anyone who attends that church.If you are doing this please stop it.its pure evil.A lot of foolish and ignorant parents have lost their babies doing so.In some counties you will get yourself arrested if the police gets to know




[
/quote]

You seriously screwed up your quotations. I've tried to correct them by putting your quotes in bold.

triplechoice:
[/quote]

[quote author=shadeyinka post=84503815]
This your post is way lot better in position than our last engagement which was upon hypnosis versus deliverance and I appreciate that.

This topc is a different one entirely so I have responded based on what is before me

I know that your picture of God isn't the conventional (like us church people will believe). However, a starting point t is to know that
1. Spirits exist.
Spirits are beings of non Physical dimensions. They are intelligent, emotional and possess most attributes of human beings (I believe that human attributes are derivatives/immitiation of their emotional, intellectual and attributes)
2. God is a Spirit:
Yes God is Spirit: and hence has attributes of a living being and NOT just a force. God is the PRIMARY SPIRIT and the source of all other spirit s.

I do not agree with the above.Thete is no evidence of a singular entity called God if there is, it is not know.What some of us know or refer to as God is the unseen energy which pervades all of existence.

You can only speak for yourself as not having an evidence of a single entity called God. I am sure you are not looking for a "physical God" for that would be surprising to me.

Your case may actually be like the case of a blind man who was given a green leaf. He touched it, smelt it, listened to it, tasted it and when he couldn't detect anything special concluded that colours and especially colour green is just a figment of some peoples imagination.

shadeyinka:

3. Angels are Spirits:
Angels are created spirits for the purpose of serving God.
4. Satan is a spirit:


There is no entity called Satan

Like I said: speak for yourself.
Satan is just the source/initiator of imperfections and negativity in the world.

shadeyinka:

Satan was an angel who rebelled against God with at least a third of the angels of God. The rebellious angels are called fallen angels
5. Demons are spirits:
Demons are hybrids between fallen angels and human spirits. They are neither human nor angels. They are malevolent in nature: very similar to microbes to living tissue.

Well ,even if they exist why should I bother about them when they do not affect me in anyway.I am more interested in dealing with humans I can see physically

Whether you like it or not, directly or indirectly, they influence things that affect you.
They promote wickedness in human beings and this humans exhibit the wickedness to other humans.

shadeyinka:

6. Humans are Spirits:
Humans are also spirits but a hybrid of both Physical (animal) and Spiritual. The only issue is that human spirit is SICK(PARALYSIS ) because of contamination with spiritual pathogen (seems similar to HIV)

It's unfortunate that your religious indoctrination has made you accept what is not true about yourself, Man as spirit occupying a physical body is not sick.We share the same attributes with the divine . However due to the limitations of the physical body we are not aware of this or find it difficult to accept our divine nature.But we can learn to operate from our position as spirit-beings occupying a physical body if we know how.The how of this is not taught within most religion.Jesus did not come to die for anybody sin but to teach just like himsel thatf we are one with God,spirit or whatever you choose to call it hence the statement

"The kingdom of God is within you'

I think you are mixing up things here.
Yes, we share some of the attributes of God (as God is a Spirit). But we have an almost unconscious relationship with our spirit (this is the sickness). If your spirit was OK, nothing would have been impossible for you. Your "sickness" is that which make it difficult to learn to master the strength and abilities of our Spirit man.

Your claim that Jesus did not die for anybody is your opinion. Those who know Him, know better. Old speak only for yourself regarding this.

shadeyinka:

I had to go through the lenthy explanation to lay the foundation of the next presentation.

Now back to your explanation of healing by faith.
Faith itself is NOT Believing.
Faith is ACTING based on TRUST in God's integrity.

It's difficult to have faith in a God you have not experienced.Beleve is always the starting point and with experience comes faith

A belief is subjective
Faith is objective.

Belief is a position of ignorance
Faith is a position of knowledge.

shadeyinka:

What heals is when a Spirit acts on the Physical is such a way as to suspend the normal laws of nature. It's not WILL POWER of BELIEVING something.

But the Bible says "if ye believe......

However ,there is an element of truth in what you have said.Spirit acts on the physical but this action is always activated by something . Thought in the form of strong belief is one of the things that can result in it's activation.This is the real cause for the placebo effect which science is battling to understand.Science is not interested in the spiritual so it's understandable why they ignore the action of spirit

If spirits exist, spiritual manifestations cannot be called placebo effects.

There are always rules to tap into the spirit realm.
1. Faith (God requires this)
2. Sacrifice (exchange)
3. Servitude (bond)
4. Rituals (observance of protocol)
The applicable rule depends on the kind of spirit being entreated.

shadeyinka:

Some humans are more like conduits for "a spirit" to act. I want to believe that T.B. Joshua is one of such.

Everyone can act as conduit for spirit.Even atheist who do not believe in any God are doing this through self believe and achieving results

If TB Joshua is a conduit for healing powers of an almighty God what is happening to others whofailed to receive healingl. is the power of God limited?

Of course, everyone is a conduit of whatever the predominant spirit in charge of a person.

However, in this case, I speak for miracles and supernatural manifestations. Some humans seem to be choice/better conduits.

A conduit is just a channel, he doesn't own the power. Even TB Joshua cannot claim to heal 100% of those who come to him for healing. It doesn't work that way.

shadeyinka:

A baby can be healed through spiritual intervention but I'm sure you won't attribute such healings to faith from the baby.


[b]A baby is yet to have control over its mind and can be easily influenced by external circumstances so it's possible for a baby to receive healing through suggestions made by someone through prayer

Please if you have a baby that you believe is I'll the best place to go is an hospital.There is no way the pastor can know exactly what is wrong with the baby.If you pray for the baby how can you confirm the healing is complete .Would a child yet to talk confirm this for you.Its madness for anyone to take their baby to a church for prayers instead of an hospital
Even TB Joshua does not encourage this.I know this from family members and friends who attend the synagogue.If you carry a baby there for healing you will directed to immediately see a doctor.You can confirm from anyone who attends that church.If you are doing this please stop it.its pure evil.A lot of foolish and ignorant parents have lost their babies doing so.In some counties you will get yourself arrested if the police gets to know[/b]

Faith in God isn't reckless!
A "Believe" could be reckless!

Faith isn't anti-drug or anti-hospital or medical personnel.
Believing stems from lack of knowledge. Faith stems from the right knowledge of God.