Crvrider:


So what do you think brought about the course, cs? CS is mainly software engineering. Anyone studying to become a computer scientist 98% more likely doing it because of coding.



But where will you do all of this if not on a computer.

The young man you quoted hit the nail right on the head. School curriculums are bloated with all manner of stuffs you don't need...hence the reason he said "jack of all trade master of none."

A self taught programmer if he/she is the serious type will learn far more than a student who has spent 4yrs in the university pursuing a cs degree. In many ways the self taught is more focal on the things that are strictly cs related. Cs and software engineering are like butter and bread. You can't really mention one without the other. So, if your cs lecturer has no clue about coding and concerns himself with things theory, bro run from such a school. More so, I see what inspired your reasoning.

Today the buzz word is data science. Can you even think about being a data scientist without even knowing how to code? Data analysis is more than just excel spreadsheet or databases? In the short run you will need to query these data, now how do you suppose you'll do that?

Some few questions for you though:
How will your lecturer test his algorithm?
How will you compute data without the need of a computational device?
Where do you want to store your data, in your pocket?

some people study CS because it's amazing nature . I agree that most people studying CS do it to become software engineers. But some people do it for the theoretical part. I once came across a PhD computer scientist who said that a lot of theoretical computer scientists don't code much , they come up with theories and those under them implement it in a programming language

GoodBoi1:
You have a point but do you also know that not all tech jobs at Google require one to be a computer scientist or even have a PhD?

I absolutely agree

Felicity0001:

In that note let me make u more annoy.

Why do I need to go spend 4-5yrs in university just to become a software engineer which I can as well learn as a vocational skill?

Most CS jobs don't need a certificate to get, rather it's base on what you can do especially in this present dispentiation the corona pandemic has brought us to, now most CS jobs are source, done, delivered and paid online for.

You dont need to go through the walls an institution to acquire knowledge to build a computer, code, design a web, graphic or any of its relations. All of these can be learnt as skills and not necessarily a degree.

Had our tertiary institutions been producing graduates with competent skills in this acts then one would agreed to the relevants of her certificate but the reverse is the case here where graduates of CS have to still gone learn the bases from online, tutorials or paid professionals before knowing the ABC-Z, so if you agree to this why then would you want to go through the long lane??

I absolutely agree that some topics are irrelevant with regards to becoming a software engineer , but I think a cs degree prepares you for a bit of every area

crownedrookie:
I'm self taught and recognize the need to get a CS degree. Planning to, even discussed it with my boss and he gave me some good options for it. Has to be from abroad though, I'd rather do a memory wipe and learn again than get a Nigerian CS degree.
For now any one with knowledge of where I can find a structured playlist of CS classes from reputable institutions on YouTube should do well to let me know.
Searches like UC Berkeley Webcast and CS 10 - The Beauty and Joy of Computing give answers but rather scattered and random

Follow the CS50 course from Harvard, taught by Prof. David Malan. Has everything from data structures to algorithms. Available on YouTube, edx and havarddotedu.

donproject:


I can generalise on self-taught programmers but can't do same for CS students. I'm an engineering student who has helped students from the so-called CS department with projects. Truthfully speaking, you'll see among them those who have passion for their course and know exactly what they are doing. But many of them just can't find their bearing and I'm afraid they will never find it.

Well, this phenomenon is universal, those who naturally derive pleasure in what they are doing do far better than those who do it because they have to do it. I'm a good example of this, studying engineering for 5 years didn't convince me enough to love my course, though I'm doing well academically and that's because I just hate failure, I have failed too much in the past and I decided that I'm not failing again.

Industrial Training I did at my 4th year actually revealed my strength and weekness, I only go to my place of attachment for maximum of 3 times a week, weeks that I would go just once are numerous, I only loved to be with my computer and learn new thing in ICT. Then I decided that I have nothing to do with my certificate after my graduation, I found what I want to do with my life already and I'm staying with it. That's the gift passion gave me.

I'm not saying that some CS majors can't be incompetent , the fact that they're incompetent doesn't make a cs degree incompetent

What's "over exaggerate"

Over state a fact s exaggerate - which one is over exaggerate again.

This is why I love Nairaland, if you say you know anything, you will still meet your master

abeg, keep the thing going. We novice dey enjoy am

There's room for everyone. The CS graduate specialising in software engineering, is responsible for the high level thinking process required for software design, algorithms, architecture and planning. They then hand down this design and plan to the programmers who do the coding with the programming language of their choice or of the company's choice. Everyone knows their place.

Think of it like an architect and a builder. The architect doesn't really need to know how to build but he's the brain behind the structural design. But why choose when you can be all of it?

stanliwise:
you are just speaking dust. I bet you didn’t study CSC from the way you speak. And what has CSC got to do with being an expert in a language. Infact most of my Lecturers are not close to how good I was in programming back in school but they were great computing Scientist than I was at then. CSC is beyond coding. CSC is all about computing data and creating algorithms, storing data, transfering data. It basically has not much to do with computer it self. Computer is a by-product of CSC and the language of communicating with such machine is also a product of CSC. So programming language is not anything close to CSC.

Don't overhype csc and downplay programmers. My csc friend use to boast that they know most math we physicist study , but the truth is if csc student do alot of calculus and engineers and physicist go into programming you can't just downplay them. CSC is good as hype my first programming language was c++ as a physicist we also did embedded programming which is writing code to the hardware that made me understand the way bios system work and how you could duplicate your own embedded computer. You don't expect we as physicist writing code to and hardware from scratch not to know how to write simple front end code. If you talk about algorithm and data I'll still give that to the statisticians and mathematicians not even the csc. Now tell me what are the special skill of a computer scientist that engineers and other scientist can study and be good at. Leave algorithm out of this many data scientist without csc are good with algorithm

.

SmartyPants:
.

I'm not denying that

Grandlord:
There's room for everyone. The CS graduate specialising in software engineering, is responsible for the high level thinking process required for software design, algorithms, architecture and planning. They then hand down this design and plan to the programmers who do the coding with the programming language of their choice or of the company's choice. Everyone knows their place.

That's the thing. Everybody has a place and everyone is equally important. Bill Gates is a great computer scientist but he managed to fu*ck windows GUI. Imagine he had a great UI/UX designer with him. Steve jobs was a badass GUI guy but Bill Gates with his coding skills was pivotal in the success of the Macintosh

ARCHEMEDESME:
I've noticed a certain trend ; a lot of self taught developers seem to look down on a cs degree after learning just an aspect of computer science.

For example someone who decides to learn backend web development ( which is a subset of cs)by taking an udemy course thinks he has learnt more than a serious minded cs student . They go about saying stuff like :" I didn't study computer science but I can know more than a cs major" but they seem to forget that computer science goes beyond developing websites. To me it's a waste of time of time studying cs just because you want to be a web developer , correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what boot camps are meant for .

But that doesn't change the fact that some CS majors know nothing , I've come across some CS majors that can't code but that doesn't make a cs degree worthless.
But do you think such people are right ?

cs as presently taught in most Nigerian public universities is garbage, it only give the graduates theoretical knowledge of the field, hence most self taught programmers who have hands on programming experience think less of them.
secondly, just like C's graduates self taught programmers are also not restricted to web development, many self taught programmers have become very proficient in programming languages like c, c plus plus, Java etc and can actually match any cs graduate skill for skill

stanliwise:
Before computer came into existence there were already computer and the first were some set of females which were given large numbers and figure to compute at real time. The fact they computed the data isn’t the logic there. They simply could have employed People and hand them calculator but that wasn’t the case. The case it that they are special trained to accept data and manipulate those data that gives the required result just like the present machine does today. A computing scientist don’t need to be a good programmer. Alan Turing developed the Utimate computer (Turing Machine) which will never be built in reality on paper. He drew the machine technique on paper and the manner it works. Alan Turing developed some of the working technique of how today computer shuld accept data and treat it.
See computing has many branches, there are some computing scientist which main job is to store data and retrieve them in quick time. This people works in large organizations and develop all sort of logic for organization data storage and retrieval. Some computing scientist are into just networking and transfer of data. They develop all sort of theory for accurate data management and transfer. For example the zip algorithms was the hand work of many computing scientist e.g HuffMan and many but this same guys didn’t make any popular zip app you see today instead their idea were used by programmers to make those apps

No one is refuting the fact that these guys you've mentioned didn't do remarkably well in their time but in today's computing world software engineers have really taken things to a whole different level.

Is there anything you do today that you do not need a software of some sort to first simulate the process to be taken? Rewind the hand of time back to when Turing designed the Enigma machine and hand him a piece a software that simulates the whole process, trust me you would have made his job 1000times easier and faster.

However, the reason why we argue is what I do not understand. If for anything else we both agree that cs is quite broad and regardless of what you specialize in:

Applied Mathematics
Digital Image/ Sound
Artificial Intelligence
Microprogramming
Bioinformatics
Networks And Administration
Computer Architecture Networks
Cryptography
Computer Engineering
Operating Systems
Computer Game Development
Robotics
Computer Graphics
Simulation And Modeling
Computer Programming
Software Development
Software Systems
Data Management
Web Development
Design Databases
Parallel Programming
iOS Development
Mobile Development
Memory Systems
Computational Physics

we all need each other.

wwwtortoise:


Greetings Sir !

Please recommend a user-friendly online platform where I can learn Python for free.

I used codecademy but the free version is limited to only the intro and basics.

PS: I am presently doing my NYSC and eagerly want to learn programming.

Regards.

Download sololearn and thank me later when you've become pro in Python

Karleb:
Don't mind them.

Truth is, it's like that in every discipline.

I didn't study computer science but I know for sure there's more to CSC than writing codes.

the other aspect of C's besides coding is design of computer hardware, how many Nigerian cs graduates can do that?

ARCHEMEDESME:
I've noticed a certain trend ; a lot of self taught developers seem to look down on a cs degree after learning just an aspect of computer science.

For example someone who decides to learn backend web development ( which is a subset of cs)by taking an udemy course thinks he has learnt more than a serious minded cs student . They go about saying stuff like :" I didn't study computer science but I can know more than a cs major" but they seem to forget that computer science goes beyond developing websites. To me it's a waste of time of time studying cs just because you want to be a web developer , correct me if I'm wrong but I think that's what boot camps are meant for .

But that doesn't change the fact that some CS majors know nothing , I've come across some CS majors that can't code but that doesn't make a cs degree worthless.
But do you think such people are right ?

Viewing it from your angle, CS as a course is suppose to give you the framework and guide into that aspect of IT. Its suppose to make you grounded in the rudimentary knowledge of CS cos its a very broad course. From Softwares development to infrastructure architecture or even enterprise management and it still doesn't stop there. During the course, you only get to touch programs that allows machines to communicate in its basic more and the principle of such program for instance, you don't study java, python, c or c+ or c++ as a course but instead, you study linear programming, oop, or automata languages which are not programs but concepts of programming for those that want to pursue programming as a career. In CS also, there is the aspect of software development which deals with software designing, building, integrating and debugging too which is very extensive and a career on its own. Now this is not programming and its a full time job on its own.

Under CS also, we have computer architecture and development. This one you also get to learn how to design systems and develop it to suit business needs and its a basic knowledge for those who want to pursue a career in Business Systems, infrastructure management, support systems and the list is endless. Its also precursor to Operating Systems which is another broad topic and a career on its own as there are several types of OS that requires their own knowledge and skills.

Basically, my point is when you study CS as a course, you are given all round knowledge from programming to architecture and development be anything you choose to be but when you study programming for programming, that's all that you are, a programmer and even more specifically, a type of programmer cos you can't know all the languages.

The life of a programmer is not usually an interesting one cos it require solitude, your intuition and reasoning must be impeccable, you logic must be impeccable. Not those who copy and paste, then edit. That you sabi small Dreamweaver or fit run JavaScript doesn't make you a programmer and still party, the real programmers are always behind the scene, always thinking and hardly engage is social life. They create the framework programs that we know as source code that everybody latches to at their front end. They are those that program backbones for bank infrastructure, NASA systems, military systems, meteorological systems, hackers, geographical data systems or any major systems.

Crvrider:


No one is refuting the fact that these guys you've mentioned didn't do remarkably well in their time but in today's computing world software engineers have really taken things to a whole different level.

Is there anything you do today that you do not need a software of some sort to first simulate the process to be taken? Rewind the hand of time back to when Turing designed the Enigma machine and hand him a piece a software that simulates the whole process, trust me you would have made his job 1000times easier and faster.

However, the reason why we argue is what I do not understand. If for anything else we both agree that cs is quite broad and regardless of what you specialize in:

Applied Mathematics
Digital Image/ Sound
Artificial Intelligence
Microprogramming
Bioinformatics
Networks And Administration
Computer Architecture Networks
Cryptography
Computer Engineering
Operating Systems
Computer Game Development
Robotics
Computer Graphics
Simulation And Modeling
Computer Programming
Software Development
Software Systems
Data Management
Web Development
Design Databases
Parallel Programming
iOS Development
Mobile Development
Memory Systems
Computational Physics

we all need each other.

Coding is a fundamental to all scientist and not just for computing scientist. You are changing the argument now. No one and not me is saying coding isn’t needed by a computing scientist. What I am basically saying is that being a programmer will not make you a computing scientist and no matter how good you code you will never be a computing scientist. To be a computing scientist you need the mathematical and theoretical knowledge of computation whether outside or within a school.

What you mentioned especially the software part are branches of computing science and not necessarily the core. Anyone could learn the branch to some pragmatic level but to go beyond you need a core knowledge of computation.

tensazangetsu20:
Computer science goes more than just coding. What of data structures, algorithms, discrete mathematics, pure mathematics. All which are very important for writing high performing, efficient applications.

all those aspects u just mentioned are actually related to coding( algorithms, data structures etc, help u to design better code) so C's is basically about coding

ARCHEMEDESME:

some people study CS because it's amazing nature . I agree that most people studying CS do it to become software engineers. But some people do it for the theoretical part. I once came across a PhD computer scientist who said that a lot of theoretical computer scientists don't code much , they come up with theories and those under them implement it in a programming language

That is why I have reverted and said there really is no need for this argument. In one way or another all these specialization under the cs spectrum will come together to make the final product.

Microwhy:

Please erase @bolded notion from your mind..
Some self taught programmer go as far back as learning what happen during compilation, what happen just before serial display... Some people have curious mind, so please don't underestimate the ability of self taught not just in CS related but every aspect of life. Some apply principle of reverse engineering during self taught. They will want to learn everything that has to do with that particular niche they are interested in. It will be foolish to challenge such people about their niche and everything that surround it.
Google and YouTube are more than any university degree, you can learn virtually everything you want.

You're right. When it comes to software, all the information, resources and tools are out there. All you need is a computer and an internet connection, and you're good to go. So anyone can learn anything if they are passionate about it.

This is unlike hardware or some other field that might require physical presence and hands-on experience.

stanliwise:


The bold is a disrespect to CSC. web dev backend is a sub-sub-sub-sub of CS.

Who ever looked down on going to school to study CS because he or she has learnt a part of CS is just mistaken. Going to school to study CSC gives one the theoretical background of what CSC is all about. BTW I don’t blame them Computing scientist in Nigeria don’t do any serious computing at all. So we may not know the difference between a CSC graduate and just an ordinary coder. Except in theoretical aspect.

I think u are confusing a web development with coding, while a web developer is also a coder coding goes beyond web dev, there is embedded coding, desktop coding, etc

CodeTemplar:
Oga, backend of enterprise resource apps or MIS apps is like 1% of CS. In industrial settings of serious nations their mechatronics set up feature even CS. It is funny how people forget System engr, Software Engineering, MIS, and other software related programs to focus their energy on CS and think the ability to conjure apps makes them some kind of guru.

Let speak the truth to ourselves a Nigeria CSC don't really know other part of the course that's why programmers who are goal oriented seems to go father than normal csc person. I'm a physicist you should know I have good knowledge of electronics, I started programming with a book called software engineering with c++. Now c++ is used in embedded system, so tell me how many Nigeria CSC graduate would write an OS for a small robotic system or even do some other stuff? As far as Nigeria is concerned CSC is over hyoed

ernieboy:
I think u are confusing a web development with coding, while a web developer is also a coder coding goes beyond web dev, there is embedded coding, desktop coding, etc

That's what I'm trying to tell them o! I've been working on generating pure sine wave from a PIC micro controller and I want to integrate the system with esp so that I can control it from all over the world so I have to write server side code. So should I call my self an embedded programmer or a web developer? When im studying physics

tollyboy5:

Don't overhype csc and downplay programmers. My csc friend use to boast that they know most math we physicist study , but the truth is if csc student do alot of calculus and engineers and physicist go into programming you can't just downplay them. CSC is good as hype my first programming language was c++ as a physicist we also did embedded programming which is writing code to the hardware that made me understand the way bios system work and how you could duplicate your own embedded computer. You don't expect we as physicist writing code to and hardware from scratch not to know how to write simple front end code. If you talk about algorithm and data I'll still give that to the statisticians and mathematicians not even the csc. Now tell me what are the special skill of a computer scientist that engineers and other scientist can study and be good at. Leave algorithm out of this many data scientist without csc are good with algorithm

You just said the worst thing ever I just heard. You lack the fundamental knowledge of who a computing scientist is. How can you give data algorithms to statisticians?.

Statistician use mainly algorithms that deals with statistics. Infact I don’t even want to waste my time.
So the algorithms google uses for real time search was invented by who?
Who invented sorting algorithms.
Who invented algorithms for picture generation
For string digestion and language rule digestion.

Who bring algorithms for data storage.

My friend please get informed jare

ARCHEMEDESME:

I absolutely agree that some topics are irrelevant with regards to becoming a software engineer , but I think a cs degree prepares you for a bit of every area

The problennis nor only synonymous with CS but with almost every degree in Nigeria tertiary institutions. Our institutions have never had a good curriculum background for both skills, theoretical and intellectual learning rather we copied the western education wrongly instead of improving on it making a better version.

Every degree in our educational system still require an external or professional learning before a student/graduate can become a master.

This is why most CEOs keep saying Nigeria graduates are unemployable.

Bottom line: I'd rather acquire a skill than spending 4,-7yrs in University.

ARCHEMEDESME:

I absolutely agree that some topics are irrelevant with regards to becoming a software engineer , but I think a cs degree prepares you for a bit of every area

that I s if u study can in a reputable University, not a Nigerian public University

Very interesting topic. I have a Masters degree in Computer Science. I also have Oracle and Microsoft DB Certifications.

I was working in one particular bank like that. I was in Database department. I had a senior in DB dept. then. He studied Mechanical Engr. but became a Database Admin. On one occasion when the system was very slow, the Database response was sluggish. Users across our about 500 branches were complaining bitterly. Then, I told my Senior DB Officer to let us increase the Memory of our IBM Server which housed the Database as a temporary measure while we investigate further. Funnily, he did not know what that will do. He did not know what increasing the Memory of the IBM Server will do to the problem at hand. This is because he does not have knowledge of basic computer architecture. He did not know that Memory capacity, Processor speed and some other factors determine the performance of the Server and the softwares running on the Server.

On some occasions when our Oracle Databse behaves crazily, then our Head of IT comes screaming, I just tell him the problem is from the hardware which is the IBM Server, that it is the Server that is behaving crazy. The Head of IT will run to Server dept and harras the guys there. The guys in our Server dept all studied Elect/Elect Engr. So, they too do not have a proper understanding of computer architecture. You cannot say that they are not qualified because banks employ the very best hands into specialized departments. So, when I send the Head of IT on an errand to Server dept, I and my Senior DB Officer will have time to investigate the problem at hand and solve it.

It got to a time, the Head of IT merged Database dept and Server dept because I was always pushing crazy problems to Server dept which the Servers guys will not understand. So, it became Databse and Server dept. So, we were brought to the same room, five of us then. So, any problem, we solve it together, no pushing of problems to other depts. I started learning about Server Administration while the Server guys too started learning Database so that we could stand in for each other.

Programmers in Software dept too who were formerly pushing their problems to Server Dept whenever their Software was running slowly could not do that again because I would sit down with them, analyse the problem and tell them why it is their Software that is sluggish and needs to be optimised and not the Server.

I have some other funny and crazy experiences in other bank and a telecoms company, but they are very specific and the people involve may be reading this, so I will just continue remembering them and laughing at professional gate crashers who jump into professions and start boasting.

In summary, the self-taught programmers that think they know all about computing and that studying Computer Science is waste of time, they are still working on small projects, when they handle big projects, then they will know that Alli Baba is not at the same level with Funny Bone.

ernieboy:
I think u are confusing a web development with coding, while a web developer is also a coder coding goes beyond web dev, there is embedded coding, desktop coding, etc

web dev are people which are in the business of creating new technologies for web. End coder are frontend are backend.
Contributors are language designers, library’s designers.
Idea developer are people who contribute new web techniques to web word e.g Gang of Four

Should I go on?

Yet web dev is a sub sub of CSC.

Corporate2020:
Very interesting topic. I have a Masters degree in Computer Science. I also have Oracle and Microsoft DB Certifications.

I was working in one particular bank like that. I was in Database department. I had a senior in DB dept. then. He studied Mechanical Engr. but became a Database Admin. On one occasion when the system was very slow, the Database response was sluggish. Users across our about 500 branches were complaining bitterly. Then, I told my Senior DB Officer to let us increase the Memory of our IBM Server which housed the Database as a temporary measure while we investigate further. Funnily, he did not know what that will do. He did not know what increasing the Memory of the IBM Server will do to the problem at hand. This is because he does not have knowledge of basic computer architecture. He did not know that Memory capacity, Processor speed and some other factors determine the performance of the Server and the softwares running on the Server.

On some occasions when our Oracle Databse behaves crazily, then our Head of IT comes screaming, I just tell him the problem is from the hardware which is the IBM Server, that it is the Server that is behaving crazy. The Head of IT will run to Server dept and harras the guys there. The guys in our Server dept all studied Elect/Elect Engr. So, they too do not have a proper understanding of computer architecture. You cannot say that they are not qualified because banks employ the very best hands into specialized departments. So, when I send the Head of IT on an errand to Server dept, I and my Senior DB Officer will have time to investigate the problem at hand and solve it.

It got to a time, the Head of IT merged Database dept and Server dept because I was always pushing crazy problems to Server dept which the Servers guys will not understand. So, it became Databse and Server dept. So, we were brought to the same room, five of us then. So, any problem, we solve it together, no pushing of problems to other depts. I started learning about Server Administration while the Server guys too started learning Database so that we could stand in for each other.

Programmers in Software dept too who were formerly pushing their problems to Server Dept whenever their Software was running slowly could not do that again because I would sit down with them, analyse the problem and tell them why it is their Software that is sluggish and needs to be optimise and not the Server.


In summary, the self-taught programmers that think they know all about computing and that studying Computer Science is waste of time, they are still working on small projects, when they handle big projects, then they will know that Alli Baba is not at the same level with Funny Bone.

That's cool but still you don't need a CS degree to know/do all that, anyone can learn this online, with certifications or experience. When you work on big projects, you are more likely to specialize cos big projects require working in teams.

stanliwise:

Coding is a fundamental to all scientist and not just for computing scientist. You are changing the argument now. No one and not me is saying coding isn’t needed by a computing scientist. What I am basically saying is that being a programmer will not make you a computing scientist and no matter how good you code you will never be a computing scientist. To be a computing scientist you need the mathematical and theoretical knowledge of computation whether outside or within a school.

What you mentioned especially the software part are branches of computing science and not necessarily the core. Anyone could learn the branch to some pragmatic level but to go beyond you need a core knowledge of computation.

Is it not possible then for a self taught who is well grounded in programming not to be knowledgeable in computational skills?

Look there are certain careers in life where you can do quite well without being admitted to study in the university and programming is one of them. Even your computational analysis is also another.

On the other hand maybe I misunderstand you. Please kindly explain what you mean by computational and why you think it is a skill for the high and mighty.

PS: have you seen a programmer who built an operating system/programming language from scratch, and I am not here talking about an android or iOS app?

It takes a lot of cerebral concentration!

GoodBoi1:

That's cool but still you don't need a CS degree to know/do all that, anyone can learn this online and with experience

My brother, local Nurses in Ajegunle, Ajangbadi, Ijora-Badia, Okokomaiko, Bariga, e.t.c. also do surgical operations. Same thing professors of Medicine do, but when yawa gas, na then you go know say khaki no be leather.