stanliwise:

This part remove -1 from your rating. So google is more complex because it was built with more than one language abi? SMH
I was expecting you to talk of google cloud architecture and the search algorithms to make billions of search per seconds. Instead you fall my hand.
You said api are what is used to communicate with a language. Then you just remove -1, API are stateless communication between two applications. It is not to a language.

I stated that it's also complex because of the complicated data structures and algorithms, bro read well before you quote me o. I can't comman be explaining myself.

DanTheGeek:


A basic compiler is not difficult and will probably be very useless (not much use case scenario for it) but a useful compiler can easily take years to build.

Even at that they are not the hardest to build.
Chess Engine today is very hard to build to a notable level. The way computer scientist can advance is unknown due to because it is NP-hard. This means there is not shortcut tomorrow for the solution.

Coming soon PS5 Polygon games engine is very mad, thousand and thousand research where made for the rendering alone. Not to talk of the complex analysis. Please read about it.

Cloud computing Operating systems. Linux tools and distribution are exceedingly difficult to build.

Window operating system is neck bending to code with more than 50 million lines of pure logic. And heavy chains of tools everywhere.

stanliwise:

You have moved from language to API now. You need to slow down and think things out abeg.
Most library are not part of the core language and shouldn’t be referred as the language itself. Many library were built by independent coders.
Golang is the language use for Uber. Does this mean Golang is more difficult than Uber. Certainly not. It is just an instrument to implement the complex polygon logic of Uber.
Google app is more complex than C, python, Golang compilers, although coded with C and Golang

I suspected you don't really know what an API is from this statement. It's a shame. Just delete your posts before somebody hiring sees it.

DanTheGeek:


Not only applications have an API programming languages do too, applications only communicate publicly either stateless or stateful via REST or SOAP. According to wikipedia “In computer programming, an application programming interface (API) is a set of subroutine definitions, protocols, and tools for building application software. In general terms, it is a set of clearly defined methods of communication between various software components”

You just embarrassing yourself bro.

you nor go school, read it clearly nah
You said communicate with a programming language. And I said it is between two applications.

DanTheGeek:


I suspected you don't really know what an API is from this statement. It's a shame. Just delete your posts before somebody hiring sees it.

Please Goan learn what API Means
Application programming interface. If I write an app and I want other app to communicate to my app. I write an api, set of functions. Api are between apps not languages

stanliwise:
Even at that they are not the hardest to build.
Chess Engine today is very hard to build to a notable level. The way computer scientist can advance is unknown due to because it is NP-hard. This means there is not shortcut tomorrow for the solution.

Coming soon PS5 Polygon games engine is very mad, thousand and thousand research where made for the rendering alone. Not to talk of the complex analysis. Please read about it.

Cloud computing Operating systems. Linux tools and distribution are exceedingly difficult to build.

Window operating system is neck bending to code with more than 50 million lines of pure logic. And heavy chains of tools everywhere.

Baba, it's just large not difficult. If you know what you're doing you can build anything but somethings require a large team because of the level of research implementation that needs to be done. The 50 million lines of logic repeatedly call methods from the underlying programming language's API and if it's through a library it still ends up calling an inbuilt method. My recent project I posted here on NL has closet to 50k LOC and it's just a web app with no complex algorithms yet. Simply calling a method multiple times for multiple scenarios can make the application complicated but doesn't take away the fact that all credits are due to the programming language itself, for without the years of hard works of men like Brendan Eich and co, we wouldn't be able to build meaningful software.

stanliwise:
you nor go school, read it clearly nah
You said communicate with a programming language. And I said it is between two applications.

Yes you can communicate with a programming language via its API nah... By "between two applications" I'm assuming you mean two web/mobile/desktop apps talking to each other.

DanTheGeek:


Baba, it's just large not difficult. If you know what you're doing you can build anything but somethings require a large team because of the level research implementation that needs to be done. The 50 million lines of logic repeatedly call methods from the underlying programming language's API and if it's through a library it still ends up calling an inbuilt method. My recent project I posted here on NL has closet to 50k LOC and it's just a web app with no complex algorithms yet. Simply calling a method multiple times for multiple scenarios can make the application complicated but doesn't take away the fact that all credits are due to the programming language itself, for without the years of hard works of men like Brendan Eich and co, we wouldn't be able to build meaningful software.

You practically don’t know what you are saying it is clear.
So if cement was used to build a bridge. You mean people who created the cement did a better job than people who created the bridge?

And please stop saying language API, say Compiler API, language does not have api. Language is just a language. Have you ever heard of anything like Java API or C++ API?

You only hear C++ compiler API, JAVA compiler API. No dey fall your hand.

stanliwise:

Even at that they are not the hardest to build.
Chess Engine today is very hard to build to a notable level. The way computer scientist can advance is unknown due to because it is NP-hard. This means there is not shortcut tomorrow for the solution.

I guess you should just try building one then. You're comparing something that takes years to get right to something that can be implented in months at most.

DanTheGeek:


I guess you should just try building one then. You're comparing something that takes years to get right to something that can be implented in months at most.

Dont make me laugh you please. I don’t want to. I follow Lc0 and stock fish engine back to back everyday. They have been finding all manner of research through neck and teeth to improve it and you talk a month.

I am developing my chess engine though, I know it will be slow but I can do it in a month but I won’t say I have an engine.

stanliwise:

You practically don’t know what you are saying it is clear.
So if cement was used to build a bridge. You mean people who created the cement did a better job than people who created the bridge?

And please stop saying language API, say Compiler API, language does not have api. Language is just a language. Have you ever heard of anything like Java API or C++ API?

You only hear C++ compiler API, JAVA compiler API. No dey fall your hand.

Somebody just shoot me already. You should've googled Java API before posting nah. O wrong nau. You're just emphasizing on your ignorance.

Btw, is it only cement that's used to build a bridge who have you seen building bridges with just cement. The context is quite different. For software the only major dependency is the programming language.

DanTheGeek:


Somebody just shoot me already. You should've googled Java API before posting nah. O wrong nau. You're just emphasizing on your ignorance.

Btw, is it only cement that's used to build a bridge who have you seen building bridges with just cement. The context is quite different. For software the only major dependency is the programming language.

You are still stabbing yourself boy.
There is nothing like language api.
We only have application API.
When next you hear Java API.
They mean the compiler not the language. Goan quote me anywhere

DanTheGeek:


You clearly don't know anything about APIs. The API is the only reason an application can communicate with the programming language. I can build an Uber clone within a few weeks but a Golang clone will take months to design. Why are you talking like a rookie, you are about to lose my respect.

Google wasn't built with one language nah, it's a combination of many programming languages with complex data structures and algorithms which makes it naturally more complicated than a single programming language. Some libraries are written in C directly for Google.

Most libraries are not part of the core language but are built from what? Sand? Ogbeni park well.

DanTheGeek:


Somebody just shoot me already. You should've googled Java API before posting nah. O wrong nau. You're just emphasizing on your ignorance.

Btw, is it only cement that's used to build a bridge who have you seen building bridges with just cement. The context is quite different. For software the only major dependency is the programming language.

I was simple trying to correct your wrong statement

“The API is the only reason an application can communicate with the programming language”

If you cannot prove the above by today then kindly and peacefully apologize to this group for misleading them and apologize to me for stressing me.
Because how can an application be communicating with a language
You can only communicate with a compiler or an application or a software not a Language.
You have been mislead by hearing Phython API or JavaScript API, not knowing they mean python compiler API and JavaScript compiler(NodeJS) API and you have refuse to take correction.
Let’s draw the line.

ReactGA:
@ op Talk24

I don't even know where to start.

OK first Maths is not the same as statistics.

Secondly, calculus is not really required except u are working on complex algorithm like sub surface scattering, directional occlusion probe e.t.c basically Calculus is for game engine makers and I have never had any reason to use it.


Also matrices is only required in shaders (well its somehow part of game dev) but they are node based shader solutions now. So upcoming game devs might not to learn matrices.

Also when replying to SegFault, endless runner like subway surf, temple run does not need procedural terrain generation just re-render what's behind in front again and it keeps looping.

I think u are an upcoming game dev. Keep it up (I'm also upcoming bt with good experience)

@ SegFault seems you're not really into game dev for you to say Vector calculations are not really needed In depth . maybe u just use unity ones a while or u just have it on ur computer thinking u know unity.

Have u mess around with Vector4 and Quaternion??
Do you know what gimbal lock does??
So many Vector questions I can ask you which I doubt u can answer.

One need in depth knowledge of vectors,geometry and trigonometry to be a good game developer in fact

60% of maths in game dev is Vector calculations d remaining goes to trigonometry and geometry.

In summary game development (along with graphics programming) is arguably the most difficult aspect of programming

Cc : lalastica
Cc: mynd44

Thanks, I'm always happy to learn more from those ahead of me and yes, I'm an upcoming game dev.

NL Programmers and argument are like 5 and 6

OGWILLS123:
NL Programmers and argument are like 5 and 6

ABI??

Talk24:
ABI??

I swear if you want see mortal kombat for this section just ask if maths is very important in programming or if self though programmer's are better than uni C.S student you go fight

OGWILLS123:

I swear if you want see mortal kombat for this section just
ask if maths is very important in programming or if self though
programmer's are better than uni C.S student you go fight

Funny you

tensazangetsu20:
No black person is yet to participate in the international Olympiad of Informatics talk less of winning it. The teaching here sucks.

International Olympiad in Informatics? In Nigeria we usually send teams for it every year. The question is whether they're prepared. Most school here aren't interested in the National Olympiad in Informatics (the gateway to the international stage) cause they know they lack the teachers and resources capable of preparing students for it.

I don't know if a black person has ever gotten a medal but I know Nigeria is still yet to win one. You don't start preparing students for these things in SS1 and expect them to go and dominate on the world stage the next year.

stanliwise:
Dont make me laugh you please. I don’t want to. I follow Lc0 and stock fish engine back to back everyday. They have been finding all manner of research through neck and teeth to improve it and you talk a month.

I am developing my chess engine though, I know it will be slow but I can do it in a month but I won’t say I have an engine.

Isn't that what software development is about. I'm talking about an MVP. We can all agree that development never ends, it's a continuous thing. but if you're talking about time to market, programming languages take more time. Only complex 3d games can match the delivery time of programming languages of 1 year and even that depends on your team given that an indie developer will spend more time building than a fully dedicated team.

stanliwise:
Please Goan learn what API Means
Application programming interface. If I write an app and I want other app to communicate to my app. I write an api, set of functions. Api are between apps not languages

This right here is why I say you're kinda wrong. Partially correct but API scope goes beyond REST/Soap and even if it means compiler/interpreter methods it still means the same thing. At least you get the picture I'm painting when I say programming language API and by "an application communicating" with it I mean, your web/desktop/mobile app calling the inbuilt methods of the programming language to make the app more meaningful. If you're not gonna communicate with the compiler or interpreter how else are you gonna build your God damn application?

If the API covers the IDK, classes etc... That's pretty much the accessible part of the language to the developer. Without an API you can freaking use the language.

Najdorf:

International Olympiad in Informatics? In Nigeria we usually send teams for it every year. The question is whether they're prepared. Most school here aren't interested in the National Olympiad in Informatics (the gateway to the international stage) cause they know they lack the teachers and resources capable of preparing students for it.

I don't know if a black person has ever gotten a medal but I know Nigeria is still yet to win one. You don't start preparing students for these things in SS1 and expect them to go and dominate on the world stage the next year.

I doubt Nigerians can compete. Have you see the American team. Look at super coders like Gennady. I don't think there's anybody in Nigeria with ability matching there's men.

stanliwise:
If it is that one then compiler construction dey learn when it comes to Os development, Virtual System, Cloud softwares, Game engines, Bare metals, embedded system.

You already know nah? OS development is the worst of them all.

DanTheGeek:


I've touched virtually everything in programming including OS development and believe me when I tell you that programming language development is the hardest thing to do in programming. You need to first build a lexical analyzer which can drive you nuts if you're not strong with regular expressions then you need to build a parser generator then you have to build an interpreter or compiler depending on the type of language you're building. You see building a full fledged compiler/interpreter isn't beans I'm not talking of a basic one that addresses a tiny problem I'm talking of one that uses an abstract syntax tree to solve countless computing problems and can be used to interact with system hardware including graphics card. And the difficulty depends on how deep you wanna go, like building a programming language without using another programming language.

ehn, bros I've written a lexical analyser without regex, I can even show you the source code on github, lexical analysers are not too hard (parsers are harder) , but I don't think you've gone deep into OS Dev, do you know hard it is too manipulate pages of memory, to create a good algorithm that can swap pages when page faults occur, do you know hard it is to program all those chips and all, do you know how hard it is to build a GUI from scratch, do you know how hard it is to handle and allocate memory appropriately. No just call compiler development for here, game engine development and some others are far harder, by the way interpreters/compilers cannot interact with hardware they must go through the OS through the kernel because compilers are user applications therefore they operate in a higher ring level than the kernel which operates on the lowest, there is a library you have to create and even at that you can't completely interact with hardware straight up, you must use system calls for example read, write, fork, exec, open, close, socket (these are system calls on POSIX compliant systems) .
And lastly I forgot to mention, when writing an OS you don't have access to system calls, libraries and frameworks, you are on your own, and worst of all you have to code I a lot of assembly.

stanliwise:
Please Goan learn what API Means
Application programming interface. If I write an app and I want other app to communicate to my app. I write an api, set of functions. Api are between apps not languages

You were kinda right before, then you took a swift turn . . .
APIs go far more than a frontend calling a backend service. That would be classified under 3rd party APIs
There are Language APIs which are constructs built on the core layer to help the language interact with stuffs, for example, in Javascript: there is a browser API . . that allows Javascript communicate with the browser. Under browser API for example, there is a Device API , this api contains a Vibrate API which makes your device vibrate . . There is a Storage API, localstorage, cookie and indexed db comes to mind . . Audio and Video API . . the list is very long .

What Dan was trying to tell you that these interfaces are not for you to learn, cos that's how the language communicates with the environment. They are sub-levels, Your own job is the high-level part of it, the 3rd party API part . . .

Truly, APIs goes way beyond /GET /PUT /PATCH /POST and /DELETE request to a server sitting somewhere.
This right here is one of the problems with being "self-taught". While its a good thing, it comes with a whole lot of limitations. Cos 99.99% of the tutorials on what have you, like Youtube, all refer to building 3rd party APIs. And if yo follow these videos rigorously, you think life ends there,
when in fact, it just begun.

SegFault:

ehn, bros I've written a lexical analyser without regex, I can even show you the source code on github, lexical analysers are not too hard (parsers are harder) , but I don't think you've gone deep into OS Dev, do you know hard it is too manipulate pages of memory, to create a good algorithm that can swap pages when page faults occur, do you know hard it is to program all those chips and all, do you know how hard it is to build a GUI from scratch, do you know how hard it is to handle and allocate memory appropriately. No just call compiler development for here, game engine development and some others are far harder, by the way interpreters/compilers cannot interact with hardware they must go through the OS through the kernel because compilers are user applications therefore they operate in a higher ring level than the kernel which operates on the lowest, there is a library you have to create and even at that you can't completely interact with hardware straight up, you must use system calls for example read, write, fork, exec, open, close, socket (these are system calls on POSIX compliant systems) .
And lastly I forgot to mention, when writing an OS you don't have access to system calls, libraries and frameworks, you are on your own, and worst of all you have to code I a lot of assembly.

I didn't build the OS from scratch, it doesn't make sense to. I used a barebones linux distro (Arch Linux) with Python to get up and running taking care of the most complicated parts of the development. Is OS development even possible without a programming language? Maybe (if you build the machine code (without assembly) required to run it which is damn difficult and not recommended) even though it's most likely assembly programming you'd be doing. I agree that OS development is also difficult (complex) but we gotta give credit to programming languages for without them we'd have to write machine code directly.

So have you built an OS completely from scratch? I'd love to hear about it.

cixak95211:


You were kinda right before, then you took a swift turn . . .
APIs go far more than a frontend calling a backend service. That would be classified under 3rd party APIs
There are Language APIs which are constructs built on the core layer to help the language interact with stuffs, for example, in Javascript: there is a browser API . . that allows Javascript communicate with the browser. Under browser API for example, there is a Device API , this api contains a Vibrate API which makes your device vibrate . . There is a Storage API, localstorage, cookie and indexed db comes to mind . . Audio and Video API . . the list is very long .

What Dan was trying to tell you that these interfaces are not for you to learn, cos that's how the language communicates with the environment. They are sub-levels, Your own job is the high-level part of it, the 3rd party API part . . .

Truly, APIs goes way beyond /GET /PUT /PATCH /POST and /DELETE request to a server sitting somewhere.
This right here is one of the problems with being "self-taught". While its a good thing, it comes with a whole lot of limitations. Cos 99.99% of the tutorials on what have you, like Youtube, all refer to building 3rd party APIs. And if yo follow these videos rigorously, you think life ends there,
when in fact, it just begun.

Finally somebody that understands me damn. I tried so hard to explain to no avail.

This is arguably the most valuable post I have ever seen on nairaland...
Let me sum this arguments all from my point of view and years of experience.

Stanliwise, DanTheGeek, SegFault and Cixak. You all are good but if I am to rank the points you made haven followed this discussion from start up to this point. From the scale of 1 - 10

Stanliwise scored - 8 points
DanTheGeek scored - 6 points

While SegFault didn't participated in the Argument, he made some more sense along the line.
Finally Cixak comment was inline with DanTheGeeks whose got 2 point less that Stanliwise so....

Now don't prosecute me... The analysis I have given is just from my point of view following the points you made meanwhile, developing a programming language is not the hardest thing to whom ever mentioned or supported this

Case closed!

SegFault:

ehn, bros I've written a lexical analyser without regex, I can even show you the source code on github, lexical analysers are not too hard (parsers are harder) , but I don't think you've gone deep into OS Dev, do you know hard it is too manipulate pages of memory, to create a good algorithm that can swap pages when page faults occur, do you know hard it is to program all those chips and all, do you know how hard it is to build a GUI from scratch, do you know how hard it is to handle and allocate memory appropriately. No just call compiler development for here, game engine development and some others are far harder, by the way interpreters/compilers cannot interact with hardware they must go through the OS through the kernel because compilers are user applications therefore they operate in a higher ring level than the kernel which operates on the lowest, there is a library you have to create and even at that you can't completely interact with hardware straight up, you must use system calls for example read, write, fork, exec, open, close, socket (these are system calls on POSIX compliant systems) .
And lastly I forgot to mention, when writing an OS you don't have access to system calls, libraries and frameworks, you are on your own, and worst of all you have to code I a lot of assembly.

Did someone call me?

cixak95211:


You were kinda right before, then you took a swift turn . . .
APIs go far more than a frontend calling a backend service. That would be classified under 3rd party APIs
There are Language APIs which are constructs built on the core layer to help the language interact with stuffs, for example, in Javascript: there is a browser API . . that allows Javascript communicate with the browser. Under browser API for example, there is a Device API , this api contains a Vibrate API which makes your device vibrate . . There is a Storage API, localstorage, cookie and indexed db comes to mind . . Audio and Video API . . the list is very long .

What Dan was trying to tell you that these interfaces are not for you to learn, cos that's how the language communicates with the environment. They are sub-levels, Your own job is the high-level part of it, the 3rd party API part . . .

Truly, APIs goes way beyond /GET /PUT /PATCH /POST and /DELETE request to a server sitting somewhere.
This right here is one of the problems with being "self-taught". While its a good thing, it comes with a whole lot of limitations. Cos 99.99% of the tutorials on what have you, like Youtube, all refer to building 3rd party APIs. And if yo follow these videos rigorously, you think life ends there,
when in fact, it just begun.

API are not beyond applications, whatever the end result maybe, no machine respond without API. We know the first kind of software in a machine are Logic gates and circuit, they also have their own API.

Language do not communicate, that particular statement is wrong, Instead you communicate with a Language compiler.

API are advance form of the language that abstract communication. It is what we used to construct communication and then sometimes compile to bitcode.

C compiler has it own way of building you app to communicate with machine, so also so Java VM. What ever library code you call depends on how your application are constructed. That is what API means
You can communicate with virtually anything, any software or sub software has it own API, machine could have it own API but such API are interpreted by a particular Application kernel in it 10010101011... form. It just depends on which API you call

DanGeek made a terrible mistake by saying “An applications communicate with a language using Api” I then told him it is not so
JAVA API means java compiler API.
It doesn’t mean Java Language API. Different is small but important.

Moreso I am not self taught, I went to school to learn computing science and I know what I am talking about

Let's make arguments like this real time on WhatsApp too
https://chat whatsapp com/DRg75NfBai3HmwmGlscAcx

Add dots where there's space. Nairaland bot won't let me post complete link like so

stanliwise:

API are not beyond applications, api are between applications, whatever the end result maybe, no machine respond without API. We know the first kind of software in a machine are Logic gates and circuit, they also have their own API.

Language do not communicate, that particular statement is wrong, Instead you communicate with a Language compiler.

API are advance form of the language that abstract communication. It is what we used to construct communication and then sometimes compile to bitcode.

C compiler has it own way of building you app to communicate with machine, so also so Java VM. What ever library code you call depends on how your application are constructed. That is what API means
You can communicate with virtually anything, any software or sub software has it own API, machine could have it own API but such API are interpreted by a particular Application kernel in it 10010101011... form. It just depends on which API you call

DanGeek made a terrible mistake by saying “An applications communicate with a language using Api” I then told him it is not so
JAVA API means java compiler API.
It doesn’t mean Java Language API. Different is small but important.

Moreso I am not self taught, I went to school to learn computing science and I know what I am talking about

All you're just trying to do is to divert our attention from your statement that APIs are REST/SOAP only... You didn't even mention soap, you said they are restful when they can actually also be restless but this only applies to integration of third party apps. This your new post is just buttressing my point and creating more confusion on where you stand.