Darnley:

At the time Jesus was making this statement,He has not bodily ascended to heaven nor did he descend bodily.When He said "no man" or "no one" he mean no man.We have see Angel descended and ascended to heaven in scripture.Yet Jesus said no man.That is to say,he was particular about man and not spirit being.As for man,no one but for Jesus and other heavenly being yes.Jesus said before Abraham I was

I agree with you but I don't know if you agree with me

Stop Twisting God's Word. He Didn't Die.

Darnley:

brother, that the Bible say ,Enoch was taken that he did not experience death or see death, does not mean he did not died. lets look at

that is confusion

Darnley:
John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
those this mean, the disciples that keeping His saying did not see death.In fact almost all the disciple died a shameful death.

we know that most all die
Jesus is talking of spiritual death

Darnley:
furthermore on the subject. the bible say,in Roman 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
if death reigned from Adam to Moses,was Enoch not included?

obviously not:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken so that he did not experience death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. For it was attested before he was taken away that he had pleased God

Hmmmmmmmm, this is excellent!
God bless you!

Darnley:

brother, that the Bible say ,Enoch was taken that he did not experience death or see death, does not mean he did not died. lets look at

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
those this mean, the disciples that keeping His saying did not see death.In fact almost all the disciple died a shameful death.

furthermore on the subject. the bible say,in Roman 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
if death reigned from Adam to Moses,was Enoch not included?

petra1:
Hebrews 11:5
It was by faith that Enoch was taken up to heaven without dying—“he disappeared, because God took him.” For before he was taken up, he was known as a person who pleased God

"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death;
and he was not found because god took him up;
for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."
- Hebrews 11:5

"And no man has gone up to Heaven except He who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - He who is in Heaven.
(i.e. No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"
- John 3:13

petra1, have you at all 2 Timothy 2:15 considered the following:
1/ What particular death in Hebrews 11:5 is being referred to that Enoch did not die from?
2/ How do you harmonise and interpret, the polysemous phrase, lmso, "taken away" in:

"Enoch walked with God,
and then he was no more, because God had taken him away".
- Genesis 5:24

with

"The righteous man perishes, (i.e. dies) and no man takes it to heart;
And devout men are taken away,
while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil"
- Isaiah 57:1

3/ What interesting and noteworthy evil, to come, was Enoch in Genesis 5:24, taken away from? (i.e. What evil to come was it, that caused him to prematurely die so as not for him to partake in it or experience that unarguable evil to come, lmso)

4/ How do you harmonise and interpret, Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 in conjunction with John 3:13 above, and without running the risk of scripture sounding contradictory or looking at variance with each other, lmso, hmm?
cc: Darnley, MaxInDHouse, Blabbermouth, Dtruthspeaker, johnw47,

MuttleyLaff:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death;
and he was not found because god took him up;
for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."
- Hebrews 11:5

"And no man has gone up to Heaven except He who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - He who is in Heaven.
(i.e. No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"
- John 3:13

petra1, have you at all 2 Timothy 2:15 considered the following:
1/ What particular death in Hebrews 11:5 is being referred to that Enoch did not die from?
2/ How do you harmonise and interpret, the polysemous phrase, lmso, "taken away" in:

"Enoch walked with God,
and then he was no more, because God had taken him away".
- Genesis 5:24

with

"The righteous man perishes, (i.e. dies) and no man takes it to heart;
And devout men are taken away,
while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil"
- Isaiah 57:1

3/ What interesting and noteworthy evil, to come, was Enoch in Genesis 5:24, taken away from? (i.e. What evil to come was it, that caused him to prematurely die so as not for him to partake in it or experience that unarguable evil to come, lmso)

4/ How do you harmonise and interpret, Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 in conjunction with John 3:13 above, and without running the risk of scripture sounding contradictory or looking at variance with each other, lmso, hmm?
cc: Darnley, MaxInDHouse, Blabbermouth, Dtruthspeaker, johnw47,

Take the bible for what it says. Enoch was taken up without dying just as elijah. The book of jasher stated that Enoch was taken by chariot of fire.

If the bible says enoch and Elijah did not die

and they were taken up alive. Its wisdom for you to leave it that way

MuttleyLaff:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death;
and he was not found because god took him up;
for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."
- Hebrews 11:5

"And no man has gone up to Heaven except He who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - He who is in Heaven.
(i.e. No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"
- John 3:13

petra1, have you at all 2 Timothy 2:15 considered the following:
1/ What particular death in Hebrews 11:5 is being referred to that Enoch did not die from?
2/ How do you harmonise and interpret, the polysemous phrase, lmso, "taken away" in:

"Enoch walked with God,
and then he was no more, because God had taken him away".
- Genesis 5:24

with

"The righteous man perishes, (i.e. dies) and no man takes it to heart;
And devout men are taken away,
while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil"
- Isaiah 57:1

3/ What interesting and noteworthy evil, to come, was Enoch in Genesis 5:24, taken away from? (i.e. What evil to come was it, that caused him to prematurely die so as not for him to partake in it or experience that unarguable evil to come, lmso)

4/ How do you harmonise and interpret, Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 in conjunction with John 3:13 above, and without running the risk of scripture sounding contradictory or looking at variance with each other, lmso, hmm?
cc: Darnley, MaxInDHouse, Blabbermouth, Dtruthspeaker, johnw47,

Hi Muttley.

The question you all have failed to ask is "Taken to Where?"

Not heaven of course!

Heaven and earth are conjoined twins and I have said it here that heaven means 'Spirit" and Unseen. Earth means "Physical" and the things that are Seen.

No one has taken himself up with his body to heaven, Only The Lord. And Remember, Where does God and The Lord stay or rather where can you always find them?

Certainly not in Lekki or Asokoro or in Camp or Bishop's house on earth BUT in Heaven!

@ Darnley.

The Bible clearly stated that all have sinned and fall short of God's glory {Romans 3:23} and death is the wages of sin! Romans 6:23
So there is no man right from Adam till today who never died. Enoch lived just 300+ and God took him simply means God did not allow Enoch to experience all the agony of oldage, sickness and other pains associated with the deteriorating health issues that goes along with aging!
Thanks for making out time for the wonderful thread, i'll be opting out for now.
God bless you!

Dtruthspeaker:
Hi Muttley.

The question you all have failed to ask is "Taken to Where?" ...
Not heaven of course!

It is MuttleyLaff to you and not Muttley, lmso

Flip to page zero or is it one sef, then post #12 to read my first submission

"... As I've previously said, on top, why not begin to wonder, why was Elijah translated, why was Enoch, as well, earlier translated too. What were both of them being protected from that God caused them to be translated. The answers to these questions, are there, right in the bible why Enoch and Elijah died just like every other human beings dies. They never ascended to any incorporeal heaven, they got in the air, teleported to another place of earth for their own safety and protection...."
- Re: Cultism, The Spiritual Consequences And Deliverance Through Christ by MuttleyLaff: 8:15am On Aug 23, 2019

Why didnt you attempt the four easy, simple, harmless, innocent, straightforward questions? Oya I dare you to give your responses to them

Dtruthspeaker:
...Heaven and earth are conjoined twins and I have said it here that heaven means 'Spirit" and Unseen. Earth means "Physical" and the things that are Seen.

No one has taken himself up with his body to heaven, Only The Lord. And Remember, Where does God and The Lord stay or rather where can you always find them?

Certainly not in Lekki or Asokoro or in Camp or Bishop's house on earth BUT in Heaven! No one has taken himself up with his body to heaven, Only The Lord. And Remember, Where does God and The Lord stay or rather where can you always find them?

Certainly not in Lekki or Asokoro or in Camp or Bishop's house on earth BUT in Heaven!

1/ How many heavens that at least exists correlated by scripture do you know?. Whats their number?
2/ Where according to your understanding do dead people end?
3/ What is the common name of the place where both righteous and unrighteous dead people end up at?
4/ What separates the righteous dead and unrighteous dead in the land of the dead, lmso?
5/ What is/are the name(s) of the place Enoch currently is right now?

Ihedinobi3:


Hi there.

It's an interesting argument that you make and it is, in fact, correct in that it makes clear that Enoch's departure resulted in the same thing that death does for every other person, but it seems to me to ignore the fact that the language used for Enoch was strange in a genealogy where again and again we are told that "he died." Why is Enoch the only one in the whole genealogy of whom something different is said? That seems to be something significant, and that is why the whole business of what happened to Enoch even arises at all.

Furthermore, you yourself quote Hebrews 11:5 while completely ignoring the really straightforward bit that Enoch did not experience or see death.

5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
Hebrews 11:5 (NIV)

That is always very bad practice in interpreting the Bible. The Bible is not to be ignored in the things that it says, even if we feel that it should. If it says that Enoch did not experience death, then Enoch did not experience death. If it also says that Enoch's life on earth was brought to an end as is the case for all who die, then we ought to accept too that Enoch's life on earth ended at some point. Is there a contradiction? It would be wise to not accuse the Lord of lying. He never contradicts Himself. However, He is infinitely wiser than the wisest exegetes, so being patient to hear His explanation is always an excellent policy.

What then does the Bible mean in the case of Enoch?

Before I offer my own answer, I'll point out that Enoch was not the only one whose passage from this life was weird. The Bible records two others.

5 And Moses the servant of the LORD died there in Moab, as the LORD had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NIV)

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!” And Elisha saw him no more.
2 Kings 2:11-12a (NIV)

Now, the first passage above might seem normal, but it would be wise to note that Moses's gravesite was never known to any human being at all, and that is weird for any human being who is said to have died. Some people do die at sea. Some are consumed by animals. Some are cremated. Some are buried. In every single case, the site of one's final departure is not entirely beyond human knowledge, even if it may be unknown at first for lack of a witness. The following is why Moses's gravesite is unknown:

9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”
Jude 1:9 (NIV)

Now, why on earth would an archangel (third highest rank of angels and grand commanders in the Lord's armies) be disputing with the rebel cherub (highest rank of angels and the only one prior to the Satanic rebellion) and ruler of the kingdom of darkness over the physical body of one believer? Why is the body important since every other body has suffered the same fate of decay? This conundrum is how we can be certain that Moses's death was quite unusual.

If we are still skeptical, it is useful to note that even at 120 years old, the Bible made a point of telling us that Moses was not even remotely at the door of death. People that healthy simply don't just die, if they are not violently dispatched from the world. So, Moses's death was unique, just like Enoch's and later Elijah's were as well.

So, what does it mean if these people are gone from this life and yet we have language that is suggestive of an unusual passage from this life? And why does the Bible say specifically that Enoch did not see or experience death?

I believe that the key is in Hebrews 11:5. It says there that Enoch was translated. As you very ably explained, that means that his location was merely changed, but obviously in an unusual way. So, now we must ask about locations.

Prior to the Cross of Jesus Christ, all human beings who died, whether they died as believers or as unbelievers, were taken to Sheol (or Hades, as the Greek has it). Of course, they weren't all put in the same place (that would be absurd), but Sheol was the world of the dead and of the prison of rebellious angels.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:12-19 (NKJV)

11 “Why did I not die at birth?
Why did I not perish when I came from the womb?
12 Why did the knees receive me?
Or why the breasts, that I should nurse?
13 For now I would have lain still and been quiet,
I would have been asleep;
Then I would have been at rest
14 With kings and counselors of the earth,
Who built ruins for themselves,
15 Or with princes who had gold,
Who filled their houses with silver;
16 Or why was I not hidden like a stillborn child,
Like infants who never saw light?
17 There the wicked cease from troubling,
And there the weary are at rest.
18 There the prisoners rest together;
They do not hear the voice of the oppressor.
19 The small and great are there,
And the servant is free from his master.
Job 3:11-19 (NKJV)

5 “The departed spirits tremble
Under the waters and their inhabitants.
Job 26:5 (NASB)

22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:22-23 (NKJV)

26 And besides all this, between us [Abraham, Lazarus and other departed believers] and you [the rich man and other unbelievers] there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
Luke 16:26 (NKJV)

That is, in Sheol, before the Cross, all believers who died were gathered to one place, called Paradise and Abraham's Bosom by the Lord Jesus (see also Luke 23:43). This is because, without a worthy sacrifice, there can be no remission of sins (Hebrews 9:22), so until the Lord Jesus died, the Lord only forgave sins "on credit", so to speak. Animal sacrifice served only as a symbol of the Cross of Jesus Christ, so believers of old who carried it out did it as an expression of their faith in the Messiah who would come later to die for their sins. This is why they were called "prisoners"

18 There the prisoners rest together;
They do not hear the voice of the oppressor.
Job 3:18 (NKJV)

16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
And consider you, saying:
‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness
And destroyed its cities,
Who did not open the house of his prisoners?’
Isaiah 14:16-17 (NKJV)

They were unable to go to Heaven because they were sinners too. But because they believed in the Messiah that the Lord had promised that He would send to die for human sin (Genesis 3:15), they were taken to a place of delight (that is why it is called a Paradise) separate from the place of Torments where unbelievers who died were deposited. This was where they all waited until Jesus came and died for all human sin and opened the way for them to go and be with their Father in Heaven:

8 Therefore He says:
“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:8-10 (NKJV)

As we know, when the Lord Jesus died, He went down into Sheol (Ephesians 4:9 above; 1 Peter 3:19; Luke 23:43). When He rose from the dead, however, He didn't leave Sheol alone. He took with Him all the believers of old and brought them back to the Third Heaven with Him, which is why Paul was able to say the following through the Spirit

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Hebrews 12:22-24 (NKJV)

All this is to say that when Enoch was translated (and when Moses and Elijah were taken in the unique manner in which they each were), they were taken to Paradise where fellow Old Testament believers who had finished their work here on earth were taken too. When the Lord Jesus took these Old Testament believers to the Third Heaven, He took them too.

In conclusion, in so far as you define death as removal from this mortal realm - whatever the means by which this is done, then Enoch died. But clearly the Bible makes something of a subtle difference in how it defines death. This is why the living resurrection of the saints who will be alive when Jesus returns is so important:

51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 15:51-57 (NKJV)

So, some of us have a guarantee from the Lord that we will never actually experience death. Rather, we will live to see the Lord Jesus return and in that moment of His Return we will experience the change of our mortal bodies into immortal, powerful ones like the one that our Lord now has.

I would say then that it would be wise to look at death as the Bible looks at it, not as you yourself do. Death is a truncation of existence on the mortal plane in some radical way that has to do with a disruption of human desire and expectation. Translation and resurrection are something else altogether. Yes, one who has been translated from the mortal earthly plane has had their existence here on earth truncated, but not in such a way that human desire and expectation has been cut short, rather it is in a way that this desire and expectation has been fully met. Enoch walked so closely with the Lord that the Lord took him to be with Him, rather than cut short his life here on earth. You could almost say that there was nothing of any value left for him anymore on earth, so there was no further point sticking around, since all his desire and expectation was with the Lord. Likewise, in the living resurrection, those believers who are changed triumph over death.

The Bible does not treat death like a positive thing. It treats it like an enemy. In fact, it calls it one (1 Corinthians 15:26). This is the reason that it is important that we respect what the Bible says about Enoch. Enoch's translation is in the Bible as a type of the living resurrection of the Church. Dismissing that costs us a significant blessing of encouragement that the Lord provides for us, especially for those who will live through the Tribulation.

[/b]. If it says that Enoch did not experience death, then Enoch did not experience death. [b]

May the Almighty God bless you abundantly.

You've given detail explanation to it in so much that I don't have any thing to say further.

MuttleyLaff:
It is MuttleyLaff to you and not Muttley, lmao

Duly noted Sir Muttleylaff!

MuttleyLaff:

Flip to page zero or is it one sef, then post #12 to read my first submission

"... As I've previously said, on top, why not begin to wonder, why was Elijah translated, why was Enoch, as well, earlier translated too. What were both of them being protected from that God caused them to be translated. The answers to these questions, are there, right in the bible why Enoch and Elijah died just like every other human beings dies. They never ascended to any incorporeal heaven, they got in the air, teleported to another place of earth for their own safety and protection...."
- Re: Cultism, The Spiritual Consequences And Deliverance Through Christ by MuttleyLaff: 8:15am On Aug 23, 2019

Why didnt you attempt the four easy, simple, harmless, innocent, straightforward questions? Oya I dare you to give your responses to them

I have presented my positions on these issues before, no one believed me, neither did they find fault with it, but altogether ignored all I have said. So I only laid the Main Points of my Submission knowing that even though no one would be able to find fault in it, they will not accept it.

I disagree with you all on this for if you knew God, you will know that He is The Most Dangerous Guy in the World and Anyone in Alliance and Connection with Him, is Very very Dangerous Too

So how then can they (Enoch/Elijah), being Dangerous people, need to be protected from people?

Is it not rather that evil people should even flee from them?

Now to your question why was Enoch and Elijah Taken?

Answer- (1) They Did So Well! I Repeat, That They Did So Well!

(2) God Has A Thing For The First eg Satan for evil, AdamEve for Failure and Destruction of man, Abraham for Salvation of man, Job for boasting and winning etc.

By the Bible Records, Enoch Was The FIRST MAN TO WALK PERFECTLY, With God! Knowing God and First, why would God Not Celebrate and Honour him?

Which God did By Doing What Has Never Been Done Before, (WHICH IS A CLEAR CHARACTER OF GOD SEEN ALL OVER THE BIBLE) which is that Enoch Did Not Die, AS OTHERS BEFORE him DID AND OTHERS AFTER HIM DID!

The Same for Elijah, who when God came to Take Him, He Again Did What Has Never Been Done "A Chariot of Fire Picked him Up".

AND THEN TO CLOSE ALL THESE PERFORMANCES THE LORD HIMSELF, CAME DOWN AND DID ALL THAT HE DID, AND THEN, WITH HIS OWN WILL, AND BY HIS OWN VOLITION, TOOK HIMSELF UP (ASCENDED), BY HIMSELF AND DID NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING TO TAKE HIM!

ALL GLORY AND HONOUR AND STRENGTH AND WISDOM BELONGS TO THE LORD FOREVER, FOR INDEED, ALL POWER IS IN HIS HANDS!

MuttleyLaff:

1/ How many heavens that at least exists correlated by scripture do you know?. Whats their number?

There is only one Heaven That Has Been Given To Us, to wit- The Conjoined Twin of the Earth!

MuttleyLaff:

2/ Where according to your understanding do dead people end?

All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep.

MuttleyLaff:

3/ What is the common name of the place where both righteous and unrighteous dead people end up at?

The Righteous go to the Place of Sleeping (Ask Samuel) the Unrighteous Go to hell (Ask Korah and Co)

MuttleyLaff:

4/ What separates the righteous dead and unrighteous dead in the land of the dead, lmso

I answered this up there without knowing that this was coming.

The Righteous Sleep, the Unrighteous Torment in hell!

MuttleyLaff:

5/ What is/are the name(s) of the place Enoch currently is right now?

The Question I have been waiting for, ENOCH IS IN ANY TERRITORY OR PLACE THAT IS WITHIN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Or let me put it in another way, Enoch is in Any place which Belongs To God.

Proof!
The Earth is God's Foot Stool, So Imagine How BIG, The House The Foot Stool Must Be to Contain it. (Praises Be Ti God That we All know How "big" a foot stool is in proportion to a House)

Then Imagine The Places and Lands That God Could Possibly Own.

Yes, Inside One of Those Lands and Places, You Will Find Enoch There!

ADDENDUM!
This is Also Where You Appreciate The Gravity of In "My Father's House, There are Many Mansions"

Truvel:
Stop Twisting God's Word. He Didn't Die.

you may say,I am twisting the word of God,
please can you tell me,if Enoch is listed among the dead that will rise first or how will Enoch rise, since you claim he didn't die.

Darnley:

you may say,I am twisting the word of God,please can you tell me,if Enoch is listed among the dead that will rise first or how will Enoch rise, seems you claim he didn't die.

He Is In Heaven.

Ihedinobi3:



The Bible does not treat death like a positive thing. It treats it like an enemy. In fact, it calls it one (1 Corinthians 15:26). This is the reason that it is important that we respect what the Bible says about Enoch. Enoch's translation is in the Bible as a type of the living resurrection of the Church. Dismissing that costs us a significant blessing of encouragement that the Lord provides for us, especially for those who will live through the Tribulation.

Please,can you prove to me how the old testament character become a living example for the church?
whatsoever,that happen in the old is a shadow of the new testament.Jesus is the first and type of the living resurrection of the church.No human being including Enoch have a glorified body like that of Jesus to ascend to heaven.

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

MuttleyLaff:
"By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death;
and he was not found because god took him up;
for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God."
- Hebrews 11:5

"And no man has gone up to Heaven except He who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - He who is in Heaven.
(i.e. No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man"
- John 3:13

Alright.

petra1, have you at all 2 Timothy 2:15 considered the following:
1/ What particular death in Hebrews 11:5 is being referred to that Enoch did not die from?

Perhaps, you should tell or give us the list of the type of deaths we should pick from.
That one Adam died, he has died it for all of you born of the first Adam. Enoch cannot come and re die that one, death also reigned through him since he is a son of the first Adam.

The other death I know will be the bodily death, if them talk say pesin no die, then na dis death gan gan them they talk.

"We shall not all sleep (I.e. Die), but we shall all be changed" - Apostle Paul
I am making two inferences from the above scripture

1. It is not an impossible science for a man not to die

2. Whenever them talk say pesin no die, in most case, it means the person didn't die bodily.

PS: I still have not claimed whether Enoch died or not o! I'm just taking things a step at a time.

2/ How do you harmonise and interpret, the polysemous phrase, lmso, "taken away" in:
"Enoch walked with God,
and then he was no more, because God had taken him away".
- Genesis 5:24

with

"The righteous man perishes, (i.e. dies) and no man takes it to heart;
And devout men are taken away,
while no one understands. For the righteous man is taken away from evil"
- Isaiah 57:1

As for me o, I don't see the correlation between "God took him" and "the righteous man is taken away from evil".

3. There were plenty righteous men in the bible that were not taken away from evil.

4. Someone should help me check - If Enoch was not taken away, would he have witnessed Noah's flood?
(I'm still not saying anything o, I'm just puting one brick on another as I am given.

3/ What interesting and noteworthy evil, to come, was Enoch in Genesis 5:24, taken away from? (i.e. What evil to come was it, that caused him to prematurely die so as not for him to partake in it or experience that unarguable evil to come, lmso)

MuttleyLaff and other interested readers, I didn't read this before I penned down my inference 4.
Who knows, my fourth inference and Muttley Baba's third question might correlate.

4/ How do you harmonise and interpret, Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 in conjunction with John 3:13 above, and without running the risk of scripture sounding contradictory or looking at variance with each other, lmso, hmm?
cc: Darnley, MaxInDHouse, Blabbermouth, Dtruthspeaker, johnw47,

The key to understanding Jesus statement lies in one of these questions

1. How many heaven/heavens are there?
Tip:
i. This firmament above is called heaven
ii. Paul said someone (which many believe to be him) was caught up to the third heavens
iii. If we are using the Earth as a model for heaven, the 7 continents of the earth might as well be a model for the number of heaven(s) we have.

Question 2
Which Heaven was Jesus talking about?
The firmament-al heaven? Definitely not!

I don't want to argue or shove my resolve on Enoch's death/continual abiding since it has no salvational value.
Believing Enoch died or did not die will not add a crown to your big head when you are to be rewarded - so, make I dey my lane jare (Stance reserved).

Dtruthspeaker:
Duly noted Sir Muttleylaff!

MuttleyLaff, will just that way do fine. You can drop the "Sir" hang on, as who the "Sir" appendage epp, lmso, hmm?

Dtruthspeaker:
I have presented my positions on these issues before, no one believed me, neither did they find fault with it, but altogether ignored all I have said. So I only laid the Main Points of my Submission knowing that even though no one would be able to find fault in it, they will not accept it.

You made me hysterically laugh, where you conceitedly said "... knowing that even though no one would be able to find fault in it ..."

Dtruthspeaker:
I disagree with you all on this for if you knew God, you will know that He is The Most Dangerous Guy in the World and Anyone in Alliance and Connection with Him, is Very very Dangerous Too

You want to play hard ball erhn. OK, if that's how you like it, bring it on then.

Why wasn't God dangerous to the Sanhedrin council and the Romans aiding and abetting in put God to death, lmso?

Dtruthspeaker:
So how then can they (Enoch/Elijah), being Dangerous people, need to be protected from people?

You're plucking at low hanging fruits, lmso. Where did you read anyone type about Enoch/Elijah needed to be protected from people, hmm? Posters, like you, just relish reading in something entirely alien to what originally it is you've read, so suit the narrative to your subjective reasonings, smh

Dtruthspeaker:
Is it not rather that evil people should even flee from them?

"Elijah walked a whole day into the wilderness. He stopped and sat down in the shade of a tree and wished he would die.
"It's too much, LORD," he prayed. "Take away my life; I might as well be dead!"
(i.e. ... he said. “Take my life, for I am no better than my ancestors who have already died."
- 1 Kings 19:4

Let me lean on you and breathe down your neck a bit, let's see how 2 Timothy 2:15 savvy you are. Why did Elijah, in 1 Kings 19:4 above, have the blues, become suicidal and even made an official request to God to please snuff him

Dtruthspeaker:
Now to your question why was Enoch and Elijah Taken?

Answer- (1) They Did So Well! I Repeat, That They Did So Well!

Look at this wayo-wayo cunning man's joke for an answer to the questions: "Why was Elijah translated, why was Enoch, as well, earlier translated too. What were both of them being protected from that God caused them to be translated"?

I asked for the reason, I asked for what gave rise to the action that necessitated that they should be translated before they actually obviously died, lmso and you're repeating a "They Did So Well! I Repeat, That They Did So Well!" sing song, as if like a prized parrot. Does that sound like a correct and knowledgeable answer to you, huh?

Dtruthspeaker:
(2) God Has A Thing For The First eg Satan for evil, Adam Eve for Failure and Destruction of man, Abraham for Salvation of man, Job for boasting and winning etc.

"However, many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first."
- Matthew 19:30

I am sure you never thought of Matthew 19:30 above, before putting your foot in your mouth up there will your "God Has A Thing For The First" miscalculation remark, lmso

Dtruthspeaker:
By the Bible Records, Enoch Was The FIRST MAN TO WALK PERFECTLY, With God! Knowing God and First, why would God Not Celebrate and Honour him?

You're revelling in your leaps and bounds eisegesis.
If Enoch was the first man to walk perfectly, I wonder why the need for God, in the person of Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, to come down to earth, to redeem, save and reconcile man back to God and kick start the process of man, slowly but surely be in the likeness of God, dare I say enroute to a state of "perfection"

Dtruthspeaker:
Which God did By Doing What Has Never Been Done Before, (WHICH IS A CLEAR CHARACTER OF GOD SEEN ALL OVER THE BIBLE) which is that Enoch Did Not Die, AS OTHERS BEFORE him DID AND OTHERS AFTER HIM DID!

The Same for Elijah, who when God came to Take Him, He Again Did What Has Never Been Done "A Chariot of Fire Picked him Up".

AND THEN TO CLOSE ALL THESE PERFORMANCES THE LORD HIMSELF, CAME DOWN AND DID ALL THAT HE DID, AND THEN, WITH HIS OWN WILL, AND BY HIS OWN VOLITION, TOOK HIMSELF UP (ASCENDED), BY HIMSELF AND DID NOT REQUIRE ANYTHING TO TAKE HIM!

ALL GLORY AND HONOUR AND STRENGTH AND WISDOM BELONGS TO THE LORD FOREVER, FOR INDEED, ALL POWER IS IN HIS HANDS!

You are one helluva the extremest times the extremest, opposite of a class act. Smh

Dtruthspeaker:
There is only one Heaven That Has Been Given To Us, to wit- The Conjoined Twin of the Earth!

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest
who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession."
- Hebrews 4:14

Should I provide you with more scripture, other than that Hebrews 4:14 above, showing the plurality of heaven, huh?

Dtruthspeaker:
All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep.

What is the reason why the phrase "sleep" for the. What is the rationale that qualifies all dead people to be described as to be "sleep"?

Dtruthspeaker:
The Righteous go to the Place of Sleeping (Ask Samuel) the Unrighteous Go to hell (Ask Korah and Co)

What is/are the specific names called where "The Righteous go to the Place of Sleeping (Ask Samuel)" sic is and hat is/are the specific names called where "the Unrighteous Go to hell (Ask Korah and Co)" sic, is/are? Where specifically naming, is Samuel and where is Korah?

Dtruthspeaker:
I answered this up there without knowing that this was coming.

You answered it clearly not knowing anything at all what I attempted to talk about.

Will you just please now give an answer to:
What separates the righteous dead and unrighteous dead in the land of the dead, lmso. Thank you

Dtruthspeaker:
The Righteous Sleep, the Unrighteous Torment in hell!

In Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ' the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, was Lazarus in a blissful state of sleep, hmm, smh?

Dtruthspeaker:
[s] The Question I have been waiting for, ENOCH IS IN ANY TERRITORY OR PLACE THAT IS WITHIN THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Or let me put it in another way, Enoch is in Any place which Belongs To God.

Proof!
The Earth is God's Foot Stool, So Imagine How BIG, The House The Foot Stool Must Be to Contain it. (Praises Be Ti God That we All know How "big" a foot stool is in proportion to a House)

Then Imagine The Places and Lands That God Could Possibly Own.

Yes, Inside One of Those Lands and Places, You Will Find Enoch There!

ADDENDUM!
This is Also Where You Appreciate The Gravity of In "My Father's House, There are Many Mansions"[/s]

Instead of dodging, ducking and diving, could you gently and calmly, just now answer the question I asked you please, that:
What is/are the name(s) of the place Enoch currently is right now? Thank you

[img]https://s5/images/ezgif-2-bb81ab7ea10d.gif[/img]
I trust my guy Blabbermouth, lmso.
Nice one! Nice inputs. lmso

Oopsy daisy

MuttleyLaff:
Oopsy daisy

ha ha ha, maybe not daisy this time
but rose?

Ihedinobi3:


I think that that statement from Hebrews 11 is not confusing in the slightest. It would do you good to let it be what it says it is.


The physical death is one that we all experience unless it pleases the Lord to except us from it, and the Lord is perfectly at liberty to grant us an exception from it, just as He clearly did in the case of Enoch and will do in the case of those who experience the living resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ.

Edited.

yes that's how i see it too, thanks for your writings
a lot of work goes into them

johnw47:
ha ha ha, maybe not daisy this time
but rose?

"For it is clear that wise men die, and the foolish and the senseless both perish and leave their wealth to others."
- Psalm 49:10

"⁶“Indeed I said, ‘You are gods,
and all of you are sons of the Most High.
⁷However, as all human beings do, you will die,
and like other rulers, you will fall.’"
- Psalm 82:7

"⁶“Indeed I said, ‘You are gods,
and all of you are sons of the Most High.
⁷However, as all human beings do, you will die,
and like other rulers, you will fall.’"
- Psalm 82:7

"What man can live and never see death?
Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah"
- Psalm 89:48

Well apparent the bot knows about Psalm 49:10, Psalm 82:7 and Psalm 89:48, it knows that Enoch being human, died just like every other human being died, hence why it hid that post and gave the poster a deservedly good ban to reflect on holding an opinion that is at odd with what scripture says

Ihedinobi3:
I think that that statement from Hebrews 11 is not confusing in the slightest. It would do you good to let it be what it says it is.

The physical death is one that we all experience unless it pleases the Lord to except us from it, and the Lord is perfectly at liberty to grant us an exception from it, just as He clearly did in the case of Enoch and will do in the case of those who experience the living resurrection at the return of Jesus Christ.

Edited.

johnw47:
yes that's how i see it too, thanks for your writings
a lot of work goes into them

"“No one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”
- John 3:13

A lot of work needs to go into cutting the teeth with Psalm 49:10, Psalm 82:7 and Psalm 89:48 above to start with, lmso. For Enoch not to have tasted death, for Enoch not to have died, is tantamount to saying that Enoch is God. Even God died and resurrected from the dead three days after (i.e. John 2:19)

All this nonsense talk that Enoch did not die or did not taste, is absurd and incongruous with bible core truths. It is a travesty of 2 Timothy 2:15 to say someone like Enoch, made in the likeness and image of a fall from grace to grass Adam, did not taste death. Who dash the proverbial monkey, that kind banana pass not to die, huh?

MuttleyLaff:
"For it is clear that wise men die, and the foolish and the senseless both perish and leave their wealth to others."
- Psalm 49:10

"⁶“Indeed I said, ‘You are gods,
and all of you are sons of the Most High.
⁷However, as all human beings do, you will die,
and like other rulers, you will fall.’"
- Psalm 82:7

"⁶“Indeed I said, ‘You are gods,
and all of you are sons of the Most High.
⁷However, as all human beings do, you will die,
and like other rulers, you will fall.’"
- Psalm 82:7

"What man can live and never see death?
Who can deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah"
- Psalm 89:48

Well apparent the bot knows about Psalm 49:10, Psalm 82:7 and Psalm 89:48, it knows that Enoch being human, died just like every other human being died, hence why it hid that post and gave the poster a deservedly good ban to reflect on holding an opinion that is at odd with what scripture says



"“No one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.”
- John 3:13

A lot of work needs to go into cutting the teeth with Psalm 49:10, Psalm 82:7 and Psalm 89:48 above to start with, lmso. For Enoch not to have tasted death, for Enoch not to have died, is tantamount to saying that Enoch is God. Even God died and resurrected from the dead three days after (i.e. John 2:19)

All this nonsense talk that Enoch did not die or did not taste, is absurd and incongruous with bible core truths. It is a travesty of 2 Timothy 2:15 to say someone like Enoch, made in the likeness and image of a fall from grace to grass Adam, did not taste death. Who dash the proverbial monkey, that kind banana pass not to die, huh?

God can make exceptions to the general rules
many others will not be tasting death also:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Php 3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 
Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

^^ we shall be like Him when He appears, changed from mortal to immortal
death has nothing to do with it, but life has

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

^^ we which are alive are changed and caughtup to the Lord, we who are alive don't die



Heb_11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

KNOWMORE56:



[/b]. If it says that Enoch did not experience death, then Enoch did not experience death. [b]

May the Almighty God bless you abundantly.

You've given detail explanation to it in so much that I don't have any thing to say further.

Thank you for your very kind words.

johnw47:


yes that's how i see it too, thanks for your writings
a lot of work goes into them

I'm always blessed to be of service to fellow believers, however the Lord is pleased to use me. And I thank you for your very kind words.

johnw47:
God can make exceptions to the general rules
many others will not be tasting death also:

"We die only once, and then we are judged.
(i.e. Indeed, just as people are destined to die once and after that to be judged)"
- Hebrews 9:27

I doubt you understand that, a living saint, first had to die, died to self, which is the precursor before being born again. No human being, no being, born of a woman can ever escape not dying. Now here's the shockingly point and interesting part, every human being has to taste death twice. It is for the righteous human to first die to self onwards to become born from on high (i.e. born again) and secondly to eventually die the physical death, meaning the death from the spirit/breath leaving the body, the body going into the ground, decomposing into dust and the soul go to a holding place to await judgment as per the instructive Hebrews 9:27 seen above

Remember, as I started off, that I mentioned that every human being has to taste death twice. Well, the unrighteous, won't die to self, the unrighteous aren't born from on high (i.e. are not born again), so this means, they only experience the physical death of their spirit/breath leaving their body, their body going into the ground, decomposing into dust and their soul go to a holding place to await judgment as per the instructive Hebrews 9:27. Obviously, to have a rendezvous with their second death in the Lake of Fire, along with Hades/Hell/Gehenna/Sheol/grave and Death itself, lmso

The saints have died twice already, hence won't because of the sake of having the righteousness of God in Christ wouldnt partake in honouring an invite to the fireworks display of the Lake of Fire, lmso. This thumb nail brief explanation, is fyi, how many others (i.e. saints) will not be tasting death also. If as a saint the judgement trumpet is blown, then in a twinkle of an eye, such who havent the opportunity to physically die, would be transformed, to shed their bodies, swapping it for spanking Eden revisited glorified bodies that A&E lost (i.e. Job 29:14 and Isaiah 61:10)

johnw47:
1 Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 
1 Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1 Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Php 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 
Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

C'mon johnw47, you know better not to be proof-texting with scripture here now. Please show me an example of person(s) yet, that you know of who has/have pulled off 1 Conrithians 15:51-53 and Philippians 3:20-21. Will you kindly give name(s) of person(s) please?

johnw47:
^^ Jesus doesn't have the living Faithful die to change them

"Jesus said this and then added, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I will go and wake him up."
- John 11:11

"Then Jesus went inside and said to them,
"Why are you crying and carrying on like this? The child isn't dead. She is just asleep.""
- Mark 5:39

"He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep."
And they began laughing at Him."
- Matthew 9:24

Every human being that crosses over from the land of the living into the land of dead automatically is oblivious of things and events happening in the land of the living while being there in the great beyond, so just like when being alive but having a siesta that you are unconscious of whats physically happening around you, so it is with dead people, because they are unconscious of what's happening in the land of the living while they themselves are in the great beyond, it is said they are sleeping, because in reality, they are still alive, their souls are alive, awaiting judgment day, but they are not alive to our world anymore, they literally and technically are asleep. Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, as you can see in the three verses above made testament to this "sleeping" fact, lmso

johnw47:
1 Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be:
but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

^^ we shall be like Him when He appears, changed from mortal to immortal
death has nothing to do with it, but life has

1 Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
1 Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

^^ we which are alive are changed and caughtup to the Lord, we who are alive don't die

Please stop all this putting on condom after orgasms. You're jumping the gun. You're trying to run in the Olympics without first waiting to tie up your running sneakers' laces. You habitually have started again, proof-texting with unrelated and unconnected bible verses that are at odds with the decree.

johnw47:
Heb_11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

You need to make up your mind over which particular death is it, that the Bible is talking of in circa Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 that Enoch shouldn't see, because after all, some thing must kill a man and Enoch was no exception to this rule, even the Son of Man, divinity and humanity merged, God incarnate, died. What particular death, again, I ask you, did the patriarch Enoch, not see?
cc: Blabbermouth

Darnley:


Please,can you prove to me how the old testament character become a living example for the church?
whatsoever,that happen in the old is a shadow of the new testament.Jesus is the first and type of the living resurrection of the church.No human being including Enoch have a glorified body like that of Jesus to ascend to heaven.

Rev.1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I already answered you with my main ministry account, but for some reason the mods aren't responding to my emails to untag my post and unban my account. So I'm hoping that this one does not suffer the same fate. My answer right now may be slightly different though, since it is not easy for me to repeat things the exact same way.

As you said, Old Testament things like "festival(s) or . . . new moon(s) or sabbaths . . . are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ" (Colossians 2:16 NKJV). That is, they were types of Christ and the Work that He would later do through His Cross. So, this is an established principle in the Bible. Consider the following too as another example:

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:14 (NKJV)

So typology is an established biblical principle. But we should consider what a type is according to the Bible's usage of the term.

A type is an illustration or a demonstration of something rather than the actual thing itself. So, for example, Adam is most definitely not Christ, but he was the progenitor of the human race, so in that sense, he illustrates Christ as the head and origin of a new human race, which is the point of Romans 5:14 above. Using the other example in the Colossians passage above, a festivals, new moons, sabbaths and the like were certainly not Christ, but each of them demonstrated in some way what Christ actually is. Among these examples, the Sabbath was a day set aside for the cessation of human effort. The point was in order to remind the Hebrews that it was really God Who gave everything, not the effort that they put in. This is why, for example, the Lord promised them that during the Sabbath year, He Himself would provide all that they would eat, so that they would not have to work at all.

20 ‘And if you say, “What shall we eat in the seventh year, since we shall not sow nor gather in our produce?” 21 Then I will command My blessing on you in the sixth year, and it will bring forth produce enough for three years. 22 And you shall sow in the eighth year, and eat old produce until the ninth year; until its produce comes in, you shall eat of the old harvest.
Leviticus 25:20-22 (NKJV) (Compare Exodus 16:29)

This is a lesson in humility. Because human beings were created with a natural drive to work, we easily forget that whatever we have is not really the result of our hard work, rather it is a gift of God and our work is merely obedience and gracious opportunity given to us by the Lord to share in His "labor" (compare 1 Corinthians 15:10; Philippians 3:10). This is why the Sabbath was instituted to refocus us on God's Sufficiency to provide for us. As such, the Sabbath is an illustration of Christ as God's Provision for Eternal Life for us. In Christ, we have all that we need to live (Romans 8:32; 2 Peter 1:3). This is why all we need to be saved is faith in Him with no work of any sort added to it (Ephesians 2:8-9). This is how Sabbath is a type of Christ. Note that "type" and "shadow" mean the same thing biblically.

The important lesson here is that, biblically, a type of something is not the thing itself. So, just as the seventh day is not Christ and Adam is not Christ, Enoch's translation is not the same as the living resurrection. These are all graphic demonstrations of the real thing itself, just as a model airplane is only a model of the real thing rather than the real thing itself (arguing that both are the same tech or machine is beside the point, since the issue is that one functions in a way that illuminates how the other one functions too without being the same thing as the other one; no one has ever travelled in a toy model plane before, for example).

Another important lesson here is that everything in the Old Testament was pointing to the New. So, of course Enoch could be a type of the saints who will be resurrected while still alive and it wouldn't in any way violate the Scriptures. Rather, it would confirm the Scriptures.

So, even though I will be repeating myself, I will summarize as follows:

1. Not only are Old Testament saints part of the Church, so that their experiences are important examples for us to learn from (1 Corinthians 10:6,11; compare vv 1-4; Hebrews 3:16-4:2), but in many ways their experiences are demonstrations of what the reality of life after the Cross is for believers of this Age, which, of course, is what you yourself say too with "whatsoever,that happen (sic) in the old is a shadow of the new testament". It is not at all weird that Enoch's translation is then a biblical graphic of the living resurrection.

2. Our Lord Jesus is certainly the first and only person yet resurrected, but He is not a type by any means, since His Resurrection is the exact same Resurrection that the Church and the Friends of the Bride from the Millennium will experience (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).

3. I actually made a clear argument that Enoch is just like all other believers who died and went to be with the Lord: unresurrected. He is not in a glorified body. Translation is not resurrection. It is only a type of the living resurrection, that is the resurrection of the saints who will be alive at the return of Jesus Christ.

johnw47:



God can make exceptions to the general rules
many others will not be tasting death also:

1Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Php 3:20  For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: 
Php 3:21  Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

^^ we shall be like Him when He appears, changed from mortal to immortal
death has nothing to do with it, but life has

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

^^ we which are alive are changed and caughtup to the Lord, we who are alive don't die



Heb_11:5  By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Thank you for sparing me the need to respond. Your answer is spot-on.

I can see the gymnastics that your interlocutor is pulling too, but I have come to associate him with a hardhearted arrogant and violent handling of the Scriptures, so it doesn't surprise me, and it is why I prefer to have nothing to do with him on this space (or anywhere else, in fact), if I can help it. None of us is perfect, and even the very best pastor-teachers are bound to get a few things wrong, but there is a difference of day and night between making mistakes because of the sin nature and wilful disobedience and rebellion.

Regarding the above, there really is nothing unclear about this position. I won't presume to give you advice, but it seems to me like a good policy to stay away from people who twist the Scriptures and lie about obvious things:

9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
Titus 3:9-11 (NKJV)

Debates are intellectually satisfying, but in many cases indeed they do very little spiritual good. At least, the Bible seems to me to say so (see above) and I have found that it is true in my own experience. Sometimes, it is necessary to resist a fool so that an example may be made of him for the sake of others, but in general, it is best to simply leave fools to their folly so that we are not caught in the same trap as them.

4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him. 5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
Proverbs 26:4-5 (NKJV)

I do get involved in discussions and debates both here on Nairaland and elsewhere in order to examine what I believe and to help others see the truth that the Bible teaches, if they are willing to treat with me. So, I'm not saying that all debates are wrong, but it seems prudent to me to be discriminatory in our choice of debates to get involved in.

Cheers.

ENOCH DIDN'T DIE . ENOCH IS A REGENERATION OF THE SPIRIT. IN JOHN 3 : 13, JESUS IS SPEAKING OF THE MOVEMENTS OF THE SPIRITS IN A WAY THAT ONLY BORNAGAINS CAN FATHOM. AND GOD IS THE SUPREME SPIRIT. I ONLY HOPE THAT NICODEMUS GOT THE POINT.

cheers

orisa37:
ENOCH DIDN'T DIE.

ENOCH IS A REGENERATION OF THE SPIRIT. IN JOHN 3 : 13, JESUS IS SPEAKING OF THE MOVEMENTS OF THE SPIRITS IN A WAY THAT ONLY BORNAGAINS CAN FATHOM. AND GOD IS THE SUPREME SPIRIT. I ONLY HOPE THAT NICODEMUS GOT THE POINT.

Not you as well, joining the gang. Smh.

MuttleyLaff:
... Elijah was carried away, the same way Philip in Acts 8:39-40, was carried away to another location not for the eunuch to see him no more again

Just as with Elijah and Philip, so was Enoch, teleported to another place from whence he later died his physical death, when it was time for Owner of breath to ask for it back

Enoch is currently in Sheol albeit the Abraham's bosom aka Paradise sectional part of the Sheol, otherwise known as the grave too. I enjoy entertained by the whining pretentious empty barrel, biblically undereducated ignoranus, busybody and gossiper who takes delight in unashamedly parading his ignorances in full public glare and are so quick to defensively be waving Proverbs 26:4-5 in the air, at any sight of anyone placing up a straight stick alongside his laid down on the ground crooked sticks. Smh sighing at the pathetic sight of all that. Mtcheew. KMT.

MuttleyLaff:


Why wasn't God dangerous to the Sanhedrin council and the Romans aiding and abetting in put God to death, lmso?

Are you seriously saying this with the intention of attempting to weaken my presentation on the Power of God in rebuttal of your claim that "They never ascended to any incorporeal heaven, they got in the air, teleported to another place of earth for their own safety and protection"?

MuttleyLaff:

You're plucking at low hanging fruits, lmso. Where did you read anyone type about Enoch/Elijah needed to be protected from people, hmm? Posters, like you, just relish reading in something entirely alien to what originally it is you've read, so suit the narrative to your subjective reasonings, smh

You said it, "They never ascended to any incorporeal heaven, they got in the air, teleported to another place of earth for their own safety and protection."

MuttleyLaff:

I asked for the reason, I asked for what gave rise to the action that necessitated that they should be translated before they actually obviously died,

lmso and you're repeating a "They Did So Well! I Repeat, That They Did So Well!" sing song, as if like a prized parrot. Does that sound like a correct and knowledgeable answer to you, huh

No! you asked why I think that they did not die, which I answered.

Not why "they should be translated before they actually obviously died".

MuttleyLaff:

If Enoch was the first man to walk perfectly, I wonder why the need for God, in the person of Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, to come down to earth, to redeem, save and reconcile man back to God and kick start the process of man, slowly but surely be in the likeness of God, dare I say enroute to a state of "perfection[/i

And this is a scrambled thinking. How can you mix The Commendable Conduct of One Sinner (Enoch) with the Provision of God to Save Sinners because you wish to rebut my assertion?

MuttleyLaff:

Should I provide you with more scripture, other than that Hebrews 4:14 above, showing the plurality of heaven, huh?

Because of your strong desire to make a rebuttal you have picked up anything that says heavens to present your counter thereby discarding that Genesis 1, is the Omnibus Statement on and about the Environment which Affects us and shall Affect us, which is the Conjoined Twins of heaven and earth.

"In the beginning God created the heaven (not heavens but heaven. And you know this but you just had to twist it) and the earth."

MuttleyLaff:

What is the reason why the phrase "[i]sleep" for the. What is the rationale that qualifies all dead people to be described as to be "sleep"?

Of course you know the answer but you just must oppose me because I repeated it. John 11:11-14 "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep".

But I know you know this!