Dtruthspeaker:
I disagree with you all on this for if you knew God, you will know that He is The Most Dangerous Guy in the World and Anyone in Alliance and Connection with Him, is Very very Dangerous Too

MuttleyLaff:
... You want to play hard ball erhn. OK, if that's how you like it, bring it on then.

Why wasn't God dangerous to the Sanhedrin council and the Romans aiding and abetting in put God to death, lmso?

Dtruthspeaker:
Are you seriously saying this with the intention of attempting to weaken my presentation on the Power of God in rebuttal of your claim that "They never ascended to any incorporeal heaven, they got in the air, teleported to another place of earth for their own safety and protection"?

I dont have any need to say anything to weaken your already flawed, unsound, making a mockery of the ethos of 2 Timothy 2:15 substandard presentation. Even my teenager nephews/nieces would do a better exegete of Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 than you have

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Dtruthspeaker:
So how then can they (Enoch/Elijah), being Dangerous people, need to be protected from people?

MuttleyLaff:
You're plucking at low hanging fruits, lmso. Where did you read anyone type about Enoch/Elijah needed to be protected from people, hmm? Posters, like you, just relish reading in something entirely alien to what originally it is you've read, so suit the narrative to your subjective reasonings, smh

Dtruthspeaker:
You said it, "They never ascended to any incorporeal heaven, they got in the air, teleported to another place of earth for their own safety and protection."

"¹Now Ahab told Jezebel everything that Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword.
²So Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “May the gods deal with me, and ever so severely, if by this time tomorrow I do not make your life like the lives of those you killed!”
³And Elijah was afraid and ran for his life. When he came to Beersheba in Judah, he left his servant there,"
- 1 Kings 19:1-3

Not only me, but so too the Bible, in, John 3:13, states that "No one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.” I take my cue from the Bible, lmso, that nobody has ascended to heaven, whereas you believe that Elijah was that dangerous enough not faint, have suicidal thought and begged God to take his life away from him, when the mounting pressure of Jezebel and her husband King Ahab got too much at him

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Dtruthspeaker:
Now to your question why was Enoch and Elijah Taken?

Answer- (1) They Did So Well! I Repeat, That They Did So Well!

MuttleyLaff:
I asked for the reason, I asked for what gave rise to the action that necessitated that they should be translated before they actually obviously died,

lmso and you're repeating a "They Did So Well! I Repeat, That They Did So Well!" sing song, as if like a prized parrot. Does that sound like a correct and knowledgeable answer to you, huh

Dtruthspeaker:
No! you asked why I think that they did not die, which I answered.

Not why "they should be translated before they actually obviously died".

Can you now see that you didnt at all give any correct and knowledgeable answer, huh?

Never mind just answer these three questions in the same numbered format and styled asked
1/ Why was Enoch and Elijah Taken?
2/ What gave rise to the action that necessitated that Enoch and Elijah should be translated before they actually obviously did later physically die and have their bodies decomposed?
3/ Why was Elijah translated, why was Enoch, as well, earlier translated too. What were both of them being protected from that God caused them to be translated?

Dtruthspeaker:
And this is a scrambled thinking. How can you mix The Commendable Conduct of One Sinner (Enoch) with the Provision of God to Save Sinners because you wish to rebut my assertion?

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
- John 3:5

"My friends, I want you to know that our bodies of flesh and blood will decay.
This means they cannot share in God's kingdom, which lasts forever."
- 1 Corinthians 15:50

Why dont you listen to yourself. List down here the necessities a human being is first subjected to for consideration to qualify to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

Dtruthspeaker:
Because of your strong desire to make a rebuttal you have picked up anything that says heavens to present your counter thereby discarding that Genesis 1, is the Omnibus Statement on and about the Environment which Affects us and shall Affect us, which is the Conjoined Twins of heaven and earth.

"In the beginning God created the heaven (not heavens but heaven. And you know this but you just had to twist it) and the earth."

I have been gentle, civil, fair-minded and above board with you, to the extent that I asked you an easy, simple, harmless, innocent and straightforward question about how many heavens there are, but you emphatically came back with a IMHO blasé ignorant response that "There is only one Heaven That Has Been Given To Us, to wit- The Conjoined Twin of the Earth!"

My response to your faux pas, after reproducing "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest
who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.[/I]" - Hebrews 4:14, was asking you that: "[i]Should I provide you with more scripture, other than that Hebrews 4:14 above, showing the plurality of heaven, huh?"

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Dtruthspeaker:
All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep.

Dtruthspeaker:
Of course you know the answer but you just must oppose me because I repeated it. John 11:11-14 "Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep".

But I know you know this!

I will be complicit in perpetuating falsehood if I dont speak up, when it clearly shows you're in error. I dont have to at all oppose you, all thats necessary is that each time you put out crooked sticks, I'll lay a straight stick alongside it, and the work is done for interested parties to see and/or judge for themselves, lmso

You see to a selective memory retention, because you have forgotten that it was your above "All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep" sic that prompted me to question your depth of knowledge and understanding of "Sleep" seeing that you have ascribed this only to "Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep" sic, conveniently brushing aside the eye opener teaching of Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, when in the New Testament, He brought things into perspective when He shared the hyperbolic illustration of Sheol with the story of the Rich Man being elsewhere and Abraham with the Poor Man being on a different side within Sheol.

Until Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ in the New Testament, Sheol in general, without necessarily distinguishing between righteous or unrighteous souls, has been the realm of the whole lot, dead or the whole lot abode of the dead, without any distinction mentioned

We have verses in OT (e.g. Psalm 9:17 etcetera) suggesting that the wicked go to Sheol but it was Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ in the New Testament that brought things into perspective when he shared the hyperbolic illustration of Sheol with the story of the Rich Man being elsewhere and Abraham with the Poor Man being on a different side, also there in Sheol.

Now contrary to your warp bible knowledge, you claim that "All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep" sic, when in fact the Rich man in that parable wasn't "sleep" but equally just like Lazarus, was conscious in that realm of the dead, albeit complaining bitterly and begging for favours

MuttleyLaff:


I dont have any need to say anything to weaken your already flawed, unsound, making a mockery of the ethos of 2 Timothy 2:15 substandard presentation. Even my teenager nephews/nieces would do a better exegete of Genesis 5:24 and Hebrews 11:5 than you have

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If there was a flaw you would have pointed it out, not RAISING FRESH ISSUES or Compelling me to RE-PROVE What Has been Proven!

You have the Power to Accept or Reject Any Evidence that is your God Given Right But When A Thing is Evident, it Requires No Evidence.

MuttleyLaff:

"¹Now Ahab told Jezebel everything that Elijah had done and how he had killed all the prophets with the sword.
²So Jezebel sent a messenger to Elijah, saying, “May the gods deal with me, and ever so severely, if by this time tomorrow I do not make your life like the lives of those you killed!”
³And Elijah was afraid and ran for his life. When he came to Beersheba in Judah, he left his servant there,"
- 1 Kings 19:1-3

I am Certain that you Do Not know that Without The Permission of God, We The Followers and Servants of God Can Not Fight or Destroy or kill!

I am sure you have seen it Written that "There is a time to kill, war, hate, cast away stones, rend and a time to..."

MuttleyLaff:

Not only me, but so too the Bible, in, John 3:13, states that "No one has ascended into heaven except He who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.” I take my cue from the Bible, lmso,
that nobody has ascended to heaven, whereas you believe that Elijah was that dangerous

No. I said and I have always said that man is not going to heaven, for we already have heaven) but the Kingdom of God.

So the question I leave is What is the kingdom of God (The Scope and Effect)? Where (Territory or Place) is the Kingdom of God,? How Vast is the Kingdom of God (Length, Breadth, Height, Width)?

MuttleyLaff:

enough not faint, have suicidal thought and begged God to take his life away from him, when the mounting pressure of Jezebel and her husband King Ahab got too much at him

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Addresed Already!

MuttleyLaff:

Can you now see that you didnt at all give any correct and knowledgeable answer, huh?

Never mind just answer these three questions in the same numbered format and styled asked
1/ Why was Enoch and Elijah Taken?
2/ What gave rise to the action that necessitated that Enoch and Elijah should be translated before they actually obviously did later physically die and have their bodies decomposed?
3/ Why was Elijah translated, why was Enoch, as well, earlier translated too. What were both of them being protected from that God caused them to be translated?

Repeating a Question will not change my answer to it.

If you do not find my answers satisfactory, it's yours to bear.

MuttleyLaff:

"Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
- John 3:5

See, Kingdom of God, not heaven.

MuttleyLaff:

"My friends, I want you to know that our bodies of flesh and blood will decay.
This means they cannot share in God's kingdom, which lasts forever."
[color=#990000]- 1 Corinthians 15:50[/color

Why? Because we are enjoying the goodness of God in that God Confined our Corruption to the earth (physical, flesh or body as you say) alone, so that while it can die in conformity with His Commandment, we, who choose to Live, shall Live by use of Another Body that is not physical and flesh. Inner Man as Paul Said!

But you would not hear me.

MuttleyLaff:

Why dont you listen to yourself. List down here the necessities a human being is first subjected to for consideration to qualify to enter the kingdom of Heaven?

1) The Fear and Understanding of the Lord.
2) The Unlocking and Use of your spirit.
3) The Doing of The Right and Good and the Avoidance of All evil! (Righteousness)
4) A penitent and Contrite Spirit. (Pure in heart)
5) A Humble Soul (Poor in spirit)

MuttleyLaff:

I have been gentle, civil, fair-minded and above board with you, to the extent that I asked you an easy, simple, harmless, innocent and straightforward question about how many heavens there are, but you emphatically came back with a IMHO blasé ignorant response that "There is only one Heaven That Has Been Given To Us, to wit- The Conjoined Twin of the Earth!"

My response to your faux pas, after reproducing "Seeing then that we have a great High Priest
who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.[/I]" - Hebrews 4:14, was asking you that: "[i]Should I provide you with more scripture, other than that Hebrews 4:14 above, showing the plurality of heaven, huh?"

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I will be complicit in perpetuating falsehood if I dont speak up, when it clearly shows you're in error. I dont have to at all oppose you, all thats necessary is that each time you put out crooked sticks, I'll lay a straight stick alongside it, and the work is done for interested parties to see and/or judge for themselves, lmso

You see to a selective memory retention, because you have forgotten that it was your above "All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep" sic that prompted me to question your depth of knowledge and understanding of "Sleep" seeing that you have ascribed this only to "Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep" sic, conveniently brushing aside the eye opener teaching of Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ, when in the New Testament, He brought things into perspective when He shared the hyperbolic illustration of Sheol with the story of the Rich Man being elsewhere and Abraham with the Poor Man being on a different side within Sheol.

Until Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ in the New Testament, Sheol in general, without necessarily distinguishing between righteous or unrighteous souls, has been the realm of the whole lot, dead or the whole lot abode of the dead, without any distinction mentioned

We have verses in OT (e.g. Psalm 9:17 etcetera) suggesting that the wicked go to Sheol but it was Yahshua Ha Mashiach aka Jesus Christ in the New Testament that brought things into perspective when he shared the hyperbolic illustration of Sheol with the story of the Rich Man being elsewhere and Abraham with the Poor Man being on a different side, also there in Sheol.

Now contrary to your warp bible knowledge, you claim that "All "Sleep" Except Those Who have been Sentenced to Hell/The Deep" sic, when in fact the Rich man in that parable wasn't "sleep" but equally just like Lazarus, was conscious in that realm of the dead, albeit complaining bitterly and begging for favours

I am sorry to have troubled you but I can not to be blamed for your lack of understanding of the Bible.

For I am not the giver of Understanding, but a receiver, who has merely disclosed, that which I have received, which you are very much entitled to Reject.

But Understanding is Given By The Lord, and not I

Dtruthspeaker:
[s]If there was a flaw you would have pointed it out, not RAISING FRESH ISSUES or Compelling me to RE-PROVE What Has been Proven!

You have the Power to Accept or Reject Any Evidence that is your God Given Right But When A Thing is Evident, it Requires No Evidence.

I am Certain that you Do Not know that Without The Permission of God, We The Followers and Servants of God Can Not Fight or Destroy or kill!

I am sure you have seen it Written that "There is a time to kill, war, hate, cast away stones, rend and a time to..."

No. I said and I have always said that man is not going to heaven, for we already have heaven) but the Kingdom of God.

So the question I leave is What is the kingdom of God (The Scope and Effect)? Where (Territory or Place) is the Kingdom of God,? How Vast is the Kingdom of God (Length, Breadth, Height, Width)?

Addresed Already!

Repeating a Question will not change my answer to it.

If you do not find my answers satisfactory, it's yours to bear.

See, Kingdom of God, not heaven.

Why? Because we are enjoying the goodness of God in that God Confined our Corruption to the earth (physical, flesh or body as you say) alone, so that while it can die in conformity with His Commandment, we, who choose to Live, shall Live by use of Another Body that is not physical and flesh.

But you would not hear me.

1) The Fear and Understanding of the Lord.
2) The Unlocking and Use of your spirit.
3) The Doing of The Right and Good and the Avoidance of All evil! (Righteousness)
4) A penitent and Contrite Spirit. (Pure in heart)
5) A Humble Soul (Poor in spirit)

I am sorry to have troubled you but I can not to be blamed for your lack of understanding of the Bible.

For I am not the giver of Understanding, but a receiver, who has merely disclosed, what I have received, which you are very much entitled to Reject.

But Understanding is Given By The Lord, and not I [/s]

I will make this a lot easier for you by asking you an easy, simple, innocent, harmless, point black and straightforward question that:
Did Enoch physically die and is now sleep, awaiting the trumpet blow, or not, hmm?

MuttleyLaff:
I will make this a lot easier for you by asking you an easy, simple, innocent, harmless, point black and straightforward question that:
Did Enoch physically die and is now sleep, awaiting the trumpet blow, or not, hmm?

Enoch did not Die, He Lives!

Where? Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!

Dtruthspeaker:
Enoch did not Die, ...

[img]https://s5/images/sourcecfa79666e8110220.gif[/img]
Smh sigh.
Wetin Musa no go see from miguard gatehouse

If by your insistent ignorance, "Enoch did not Die, He Lives!" sic, then answer the following:
1/ Why isn't there any reoccurrence of a human being not physically dying like Enoch according to you alleging Enoch didnt die but lives on, hmm?
2/ Who was Methuselah's father or what is Methuselah's father's name?
3/ What is the meaning of the Hebrew name Methuselah?
4/ Are you at all conversant or familiar with the "Methuselah genealogy flood" prophecy?
5/ After answering #2, 3 and 4 above, has the penny dropped yet for you, as of realising what death Enoch didnt die from, hmm?

Dtruthspeaker:
... He Lives!

"So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
(i.e. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years or so Enoch's life lasted 365 years)"
- Genesis 5:23

You say "...He Lives!", yet Moshe aka Moses, who penned this information, tells us that Enoch lived a total of 365 years, meaning the entire lifetime of Enoch was 365 years, yet you in the most ignorant and falling foul of scripture hermeneutic and exegesis keep putting your foot in your mouth when you say Enoch did not physically die and make it worse, say he lives, when the only part of Enoch that lives, while awaiting the trumpet sound is his soul, as his body has long gone back to being dust, lmso

Dtruthspeaker:
Where? Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!

What is the name of this "Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!" sic called, please bring up scripture verse(s) to back up your answer with. Thank you in advance for complying, lmso

Darnley:
In Genesis 5:22-24,
the bible say" And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.This statement has been misinterpreted to mean that Enoch did not died and was taken to heaven. But looking at the description of those who we believe died from verse 3 to 20 you will notice this expression "all his days" and it means that the person lived for that length of time only "and he died." the same was said of Enoch in verse 23 to mean Enoch died after he lived for 365years.
Also,the phrase "he was not" mean to say he died.Ithen Matt.2:17-18 Bible say, "Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying,
In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not ".
The verses above speak of the infants that were killed by the order of king Herod in a way to kill Jesus.
The scripture say,they are not meaning they died.How then do people say, Enoch did not die.reading Hebrew 11:1-13 you will find out that from Abel vs4 to Sarah vs12 of the genealogy of faith die as stated in verse 13.Enoch is inclusive.
Bible also say Enoch was translated,but what does translated mean

The original Greek word for "translate" is metatithemi.According to Arndt-Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, 1969 edition, the primary meaning is to "convey to another place . . . transfer" (p. 514).

The same Greek word is rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16. Here we read that after Jacob died his body was "carried over"—transported, translated—to Sychem where he was buried! That's what your Bible says! Jacob was transported or translated to the place of burial!

the Greek word for "carried over" in Acts7:16 is the same Greek word for "translate" in Heb.11:5 I.e G3346
That is why Moses said that God took Enoch. God removed—translated—him so that he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him,just as He did to Moses.

Some believe,he was taken to heaven,but Jesus said, in Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Nairaland,I need your opinion for or against

Enoch and Elijah did not die like normal people do.
While Elijah's case was clearly expressed, the bible did not share how Enoch was taken.

But it is believed that he was taken away and did not die.

Myer:
Enoch and Elijah did not die like normal people do.

C'mon even you too as well. Smh head

OK, oya, let's have this sorted out
1/ Where does the Bible say, Enoch and Elijah did not die, like the way every other normal people dies?
2/ Why wouldnt Enoch and Elijah die, just like every other normal people do die?
3/ What is the valid, legal and legitimate reason for Enoch and Elijah not to die, that has since after them hasn't been met that it be copied by others?
4/ What are Enoch and Elijah physiological make up, that qualifies them to be immortal, be indestructible, be deathless, lmso?

Myer:
While Elijah's case was clearly expressed, the bible did not share how Enoch was taken.

But it is believed that he was taken away and did not die.

The bible clearly stated that Enoch was teleportedly taken away, a similar way Elijah and Philip were transported to a different location.

Death, is inevitable to all human beings. There is no exception to the long Genesis 2:17 - "....you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”"

Dtruthspeaker:


Enoch did not Die, He Lives!

The Bible says, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21. Have you proven that Enoch did not die, that he lives? Are you sure?

Whilst I understand that accepting glaring evidence that Enoch, like every other person died, could cause devastating blow to your probably 'heaven-bound or rapture' belief, but come on... This shouldn't be a problem to The Truth Speaker- a defender and one who speaks the truth. Right?

Okay, so let's be like the Bereans, and "...find out whether these things were so" Acts 17:11.

Speaking of Enoch, the holy scripture says, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him" Genesis 5:24. Please take note of the italicized word- walked. Of course I wouldn't bored you with the definition. You're a learned person.

Now, here's what you're telling us in essence: you're saying that 'Enoch is walking with God'. But the bible says "Enoch walked". Does it mean we don't know our tenses again? Whose report shall we believe, yours or that of the scripture?

So then, if Enoch did not die and lives, he would still be walking (present tense) with God and not walked (past tense). I'm sorry friend, you're spreading falsehood and not the truth.

Dtruthspeaker:

Where? Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!

Does this edifies anyone? I don't think so.

Many thanks.

Myer:

Enoch and Elijah did not die like normal people do.

My stand is that, they die, whether like normal people or not is an issue.

Myer:



But it is believed that he was taken away and did not die.

Pls read my comment from the beginning of this thread.
Also read the following scripture and decide what to believe

Psalm89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? 
Rom.5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Psalm 82:6-7
6 have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Eccl.3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die;

Eccl.8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neitherhath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

1Kings19: 4 But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. 

Elijah requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. This is where Elijah signed his death warrant and granted by God.This is the reason God told him to anoint Elisha in his place

MuttleyLaff:
C'mon even you too as well. Smh head

OK, oya, let's have this sorted out
1/ Where does the Bible say, Enoch and Elijah did not die, like the way every other normal people dies?
2/ Why wouldnt Enoch and Elijah die, just like every other normal people do die?
3/ What is the valid, legal and legitimate reason for Enoch and Elijah not to die, that has since after them hasn't been met that it be copied by others?
4/ What are Enoch and Elijah physiological make up, that qualifies them to be immortal, be indestructible, be deathless, lmso?

The bible clearly stated that Enoch was teleportedly taken away, a similar way Elijah and Philip were transported to a different location.

Death, is inevitable to all human beings. There is no exception to the long Genesis 2:17 - "....you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”"

I'm simply sharing what the bible stated.
Elijah never died but was taken in a chariot of fire. 2 Kings 2:11-12.

Enoch and John the Beloved not dying was implied and not as detailed as Elijah

Darnley:

Pls read my comment from the beginning of this thread.
Also read the following scripture and decide what to believe

Psalm89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? 
Rom.5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Psalm 82:6-7
6 have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

Eccl.3:2 A time to be born, and a time to die;

Eccl.8:8 There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neitherhath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.

1Kings19: 4 But he himself went a day's journey into the wilderness, and came and sat down under a juniper tree: and he requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. 

Elijah requested for himself that he might die; and said, It is enough; now, O LORD, take away my life; for I am not better than my fathers. This is where Elijah signed his death warrant and granted by God.This is the reason God told him to anoint Elisha in his place

While it is appointed for every man to die. God made exception with Enoch, Elijah and John the Beloved according to the bible.

Just the same way an exception was made for Jesus to be born without an earthly father. God makes exceptions whenever he wants to.

Myer:
I'm simply sharing what the bible stated.

My dear sire, with the utmost respect, you're simply sharing what the Bible never explicitly stated nor implied. You sire, in fact, are regurgitating information, when put under the light, exposes bad learning

Myer:
Elijah never died but was taken in a chariot of fire. 2 Kings 2:11-12

I dont know what Bible translation version you've been reading that states that prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire.

Sire, are you 10000% sure that 2 Kings 2:11-12, states that prophet Elijah never died, and to make this worse, are you also confidently saying that prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, huh?

Please kindly type out here, word for word, anywhere in the Bible, that states prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, lmso. Thank you in advance for granting this humble request

Myer:
Enoch and John the Beloved not dying was implied and not as detailed as Elijah

"¹⁹Jesus said this to tell how Peter would die and bring honor to God. Then he said to Peter, “Follow me!”
²⁰Peter turned and saw Jesus' favorite disciple following them (i.e. Apostle John)
He was the same one who had sat next to Jesus at the meal and had asked, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”
²¹When Peter saw this disciple, he asked Jesus, “Lord, what about him?”
²²Jesus answered, “What is it to you, if I want him to live until I return? You must follow me.”
²³So the rumor spread among the other disciples that this disciple would not die.
But Jesus did not say he (i.e. Apostle John) would not die.
He simply said, “What is it to you, if I want him (i.e. Apostle John) to live until I return?”
(i.e. However, Jesus did not say that he (i.e. Apostle John) would not die,
but only, “If I want him (i.e. Apostle John) to remain until I return, what is that to you?)"
- John 21:19-23

No where in the Bible is Enoch implied not dying or not to ever die. What happened was that, Enoch was made to die earlier than the coming death that happened 120 years, after his son Methuselah died. That was the death Enoch was taken away from and to not die from.

As for Apostle John, the disciple, the one whom Yahshua aka Jesus loved, he was the only one among the apostles, who died a natural physical death, as the other apostles died gruesome and extremely unpleasant deaths as martyrs.

John 21:23, is incontrovertible proof that Apostle John was never in the Bible implied to not die. All these your misinformation is nothing other than just the sae old rumour, that you 2000 years later, have fallen a victim to, and ignorantly aiding and abetting spreading this false information here on this thread, smh sigh

I wouldnt bother going into asking you why is it that, Yahshua aka Jesus, handed over the care of His mother, Mary into the hands of Apostle John, the disciple, the one whom Yahshua aka Jesus loved, and no other disciple/apostle, as I know, you'll defo won't understand the question enough to give the correct answer, lmso.

Myer:
While it is appointed for every man to die. God made exception with Enoch, Elijah and John the Beloved according to the bible.

So if you know that death in inevitable, that death is inescapable because it is appointed for every man to die and after that be judged by God (i.e. Hebrew 9:27) then I ask you the following easy, simple, harmless, innocent, point blank straightforward questions
1/ Under what criterion/criteria are Enoch, Elijah and John the Beloved based on that allowed them not to taste death?
2/ What is being achieved from Enoch, Elijah and John the Beloved allegedly by you, not dying?
3/ What is being proven from Enoch, Elijah and John the Beloved allegedly by you, not tasting physical death and decomposition of their mortal bodies?

Myer:
Just the same way an exception was made for Jesus to be born without an earthly father. God makes exceptions whenever he wants to.

Yahshua Ha Mashiach, aka Jesus Christ, is God incarnated, dont ever again, make the mistake of putting Yahshua/Jesus in the same category of Enoch, Elijah and John the Beloved, who each all, are incapable of actualising the latter ending part of John 12:24's: "I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat is planted in the soil and dies, it remains alone. But its death will produce many new kernels—a plentiful harvest of new lives"
cc: Darnley

Myer:


I'm simply sharing what the bible stated.

I understand.

However, we are also enjoined to, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" II Timothy 2:15.

So it's not enough to just quote the Bible. Are you quoting it rightly?

Myer:

Elijah never died but was taken in a chariot of fire. 2 Kings 2:11-12.

Are you sure Elijah did not die? Can you prove it? After the "chariot of fire" incident, do you know where Elijah was taken to?

Be careful not to make assumptions. PROVE IT!

Whilst it is true that Elijah was indeed taken into heaven. The question is: WHICH HEAVEN?

Throughout the Bible, the word “heaven” is used to describe three locations: First, there is the atmosphere that envelops the earth; this is the first heaven. Next, the vast regions of outer space are collectively referred to as “heaven,” or “the heavens” (Psalms 115:16); this is the second heaven. Finally, the location of God’s throne is specifically called “the third heaven” by Paul (II Cor. 12:2).

Since no human being has ever ascended into the third-heaven - God's throne, even David is not in heaven (John 3:13, Acts 2:34), only two possibilities remain for Elijah;

1. Outer space

2. The atmosphere or clouds (1 Thes. 4:17)

We also know for a fact that human beings can't breath in space, so then, we are left with the ATMOSPHERE OR CLOUDS as the only option for Elijah. This is the only logical conclusion considering the facts.

Elijah was indeed taken into the atmosphere or clouds, supernaturally. Actually, he was transported to another location on earth, where he lived the remainder of his days in accordance with the Scripture. Also note, clouds, as mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, are only a few miles above the earth. In fact, flying an airplane is in a sense, going to heaven.

Further proof that Elijah was transported to another location is this. Few years after he was taken away, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, king of Judah, rebuking him for his evil ways (II Chron. 21:12). Of course, this can only happen on Earth, not in heaven!

Regards.

@above post
At last, a timely breath of refreshing good air, voice of reason and an example of someone with a good head on their shoulders

Just imagine saying prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, when the Bible never ever said anything like that, but then we do like reading into the Bible what we like to see written in it, so I dont blame Myer for that slip up. Others, better take note, so not to repeat this bad learning based down from years of bad and unchecked indoctrination

Splinz:

I understand.

However, we are also enjoined to, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" II Timothy 2:15.

So it's not enough to just quote the Bible. Are you quoting it rightly?



Are you sure Elijah did not die? Can you prove it? After the "chariot of fire" incident, do you know where Elijah was taken to?

Be careful not to make assumptions. PROVE IT!

Whilst it is true that Elijah was indeed taken into heaven. The question is: WHICH HEAVEN?

Throughout the Bible, the word “heaven” is used to describe three locations: First, there is the atmosphere that envelops the earth; this is the first heaven. Next, the vast regions of outer space are collectively referred to as “heaven,” or “the heavens” (Psalms 115:16); this is the second heaven. Finally, the location of God’s throne is specifically called “the third heaven” by Paul (II Cor. 12:2).

Since no human being has ever ascended into the third-heaven - God's throne, even David is not in heaven (John 3:13, Acts 2:34), only two possibilities remain for Elijah;

1. Outer space

2. The atmosphere or clouds (1 Thes. 4:17)

We also know for a fact that human beings can't breath in space, so then, we are left with the ATMOSPHERE OR CLOUDS as the only option for Elijah. This is the only logical conclusion considering the facts.

Elijah was indeed taken into the atmosphere or clouds, supernaturally. Actually, he was transported to another location on earth, where he lived the remainder of his days in accordance with the Scripture. Also note, clouds, as mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, are only a few miles above the earth. In fact, flying an airplane is in a sense, going to heaven.

Further proof that Elijah was transported to another location is this. Few years after he was taken away, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, king of Judah, rebuking him for his evil ways (II Chron. 21:12). Of course, this can only happen on Earth, not in heaven!

Regards.

Hey there.

I think that you have ignored a few other options in your analysis.

It is true that the Bible speaks of three heavens: the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space and the third Heaven which is not a part of this creation and where God dwells, but there is at least one other possibility besides Elijah being taken to some one of the twin heavens rather than to the third Heaven.

Man is a soul that is made up of a spirit and a body as Genesis 2:7 teaches:

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

When we die, obviously, our spirits are removed from our bodies:

7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 (NKJV)

How does the Bible refer to the body when it is separated from the spirit that inhabits it? How does the Bible refer to the spirit when it is separated from the house that once covered it?

5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NKJV)

36 “For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell asleep, was buried with his fathers, and saw corruption
Acts 13:36 (NKJV)

These are two of a vast number of Scriptures where the body of a human being is spoken of by the Bible as if it were the whole person to whom it referred.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.”
14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”
16 Then Samuel said: “So why do you ask me, seeing the LORD has departed from you and has become your enemy? 17 And the LORD has done for Himself as He spoke by me. For the LORD has torn the kingdom out of your hand and given it to your neighbor, David. 18 Because you did not obey the voice of the LORD nor execute His fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore the LORD has done this thing to you this day. 19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with you into the hand of the Philistines. And tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The LORD will also deliver the army of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.”
1 Samuel 28:12-19 (NKJV)

3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
Matthew 17:3 (NKJV)

These are two other Scriptures that demonstrate that the Bible also considers the spirits of human beings as if they were the whole person.

That is to say that the Bible thinks of the human person as being a spirit that belongs to a unique body of its own. As such, it treats the "empty house," so to speak, as if it were the same as its owner, the spirit. So, when the Bible says that Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, it doesn't have to be understood as Elijah's spirit going into heaven. It can also be understood as Elijah's body going into heaven.

When we compare this interpretation to Jude 1:9, it seems to me to make perfect sense, since the same thing seems to be what is happening with Moses's body. Both bodies were taken to the Third Heaven for preservation since both saints are meant to be brought back to life for the Tribulation.

15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear,
Deuteronomy 18:15 (NKJV)

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
Malachi 4:5 (NKJV)

It is true that the prophecy in the first passage above was fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 3:22-26), but that does not mean that it is limited to the Lord Jesus Christ. Besides the Lord Jesus Christ, there is only one other prophet that is just like Moses to whom the nation of Israel will listen: Moses himself, which is why there is this bit of Scripture in the Bible as well:

30 And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah, 31 who appeared in glory and spoke of His decease which He was about to accomplish at Jerusalem.
Luke 9:30-31 (NKJV)

Apart from the fact that this Transfiguration was a preview of the Second Advent, which throws into sharp relief the association of Moses and Elijah with it, there is also the fact that they were discussing the upcoming Cross with Jesus Christ on which the Millennium is based. Consider, for example, that the whole story in Revelation 5 is that only because the Lamb had been slain and had thus purchased for God men from every tribe and tongue and nation etc did He have the right to take the scroll and open it to commence the Tribulation at the end of which the Kingdom of Heaven would reclaim the earth from Satan and his kingdom of darkness.

Likewise, Malachi 4:5 speaks of Elijah's role in the Tribulation too, but we know that the Lord Jesus said that John was Elijah too. He was in the sense of one who had a similar ministry to what Elijah would have during the Tribulation:

11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming first and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished. Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to them of John the Baptist.
Matthew 17:11-13 (NKJV)

So, both these men still have work to do here on earth. For this reason, it makes sense that the Lord would be pleased to preserve their bodies in the Third Heaven until it is time for Him to send them back to finish their task as the two witnesses of Revelation 11.

To be clear, this does not violate 1 Corinthians 15:50, because the bodies in question are not doing any inheriting of any sort. They are merely being preserved.

Whereas I cannot speak for your interlocutor about this next point, I think that it should be clear that it is false to say that Enoch, Moses, or Elijah was in the third Heaven just because of the unusual nature of their departure from the earth. They were not, not until the Lord Jesus took all Old Testament saints to Heaven with Him after He rose from the dead. The passage that you referenced is quoted below:

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
John 3:13 (NKJV)

Clearly, it only said that no one had ever ascended to Heaven at the time of the Lord's speaking, not that no one ever would. No human being was allowed into the Third Heaven before Jesus Christ went to the Cross and paid the price for all human sin. That was why every Old Testament believer was taken to Paradise in Sheol until Jesus died on the Cross. Although it was a place of delight where they fellowshipped with God too, it was not "home" for them. That is why the Bible called them "prisoners" in Isaiah 14:17, Job 3:18, Psalm 68:18, and Ephesians 4:8. They had to wait until the Lord Jesus paid the price for their release, and after He did, they went to the Third Heaven with Him, which is why later on, Paul spoke this through the Spirit:

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect
Hebrews 12:22-23 (NKJV)

Then John spoke of the martyred saints who are in Heaven before the Great Persecution too in Revelation 6:9. So, it is pretty well documented in the Bible both that before the Cross, there was no human being in the Third Heaven, and that after the Cross, all Old Testament believers and every New Testament believer that dies are all in the Third Heaven.

This ought to be no obstacle then to accepting the clear testimony of the Scriptures about Enoch's translation.

The argument that you made that because humans cannot breathe outside the earth's atmosphere Elijah must not have gone beyond the atmosphere then can be seen not to have taken into full account the possibility that he had been separated from his body, so that breathing was no longer any kind of issue for him. His spirit was taken to Paradise while his body was taken to the Third Heaven.

The other argument that Elijah wrote some letter after the whirlwind and chariots of fire incident is also pure speculation, from where I stand. There doesn't seem to me to be a single reason why we should think that it must be the same Elijah of whom the Bible speaks in that passage. When we take into account everything else that I have just said above, it seems to me that the already speculative argument completely collapses. It can't be the same Elijah since he was not even on the Earth anymore to be writing a letter. That is to say this argument is not necessary at all to explain Elijah's disappearance when everything else in the Bible is considered. When we consider it, it distorts everything else that the Bible teaches.

MuttleyLaff:
My dear sire, with the utmost respect, you're simply sharing what the Bible never explicitly stated nor implied. You sire, in fact, are regurgitating information, when put under the light, exposes bad learning

I dont know what Bible translation version you've been reading that states that prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire.

Sire, are you 10000% sure that 2 Kings 2:11-12, states that prophet Elijah never died, and to make this worse, are you also confidently saying that prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, huh?

Please kindly type out here, word for word, anywhere in the Bible, that states prophet Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, lmso. Thank you in advance for granting this humble request

"¹⁹Jesus said this to tell how Peter would die and bring honor to God. Then he said to Peter, “Follow me!”
²⁰Peter turned and saw Jesus' favorite disciple following them (i.e. Apostle John)
He was the same one who had sat next to Jesus at the meal and had asked, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”
²¹When Peter saw this disciple, he asked Jesus, “Lord, what about him?”
²²Jesus answered, “What is it to you, if I want him to live until I return? You must follow me.”
²³So the rumor spread among the other disciples that this disciple would not die.
But Jesus did not say he (i.e. Apostle John) would not die.
He simply said, “What is it to you, if I want him (i.e. Apostle John) to live until I return?”
(i.e. However, Jesus did not say that he (i.e. Apostle John) would not die,
but only, “If I want him (i.e. Apostle John) to remain until I return, what is that to you?)"
- John 21:19-23

No where in the Bible is Enoch implied not dying or not to ever die. What happened was that, Enoch was made to die earlier than the coming death that happened 120 years, after his son Methuselah died. That was the death Enoch was taken away from and to not die from.

As for Apostle John, the disciple, the one whom Yahshua aka Jesus loved, he was the only one among the apostles, who died a natural physical death, as the other apostles died gruesome and extremely unpleasant deaths as martyrs.

John 21:23, is incontrovertible proof that Apostle John was never in the Bible implied to not die. All these your misinformation is nothing other than just the sae old rumour, that you 2000 years later, have fallen a victim to, and ignorantly aiding and abetting spreading this false information here on this thread, smh sigh

I wouldnt bother going into asking you why is it that, Yahshua aka Jesus, handed over the care of His mother, Mary into the hands of Apostle John, the disciple, the one whom Yahshua aka Jesus loved, and no other disciple/apostle, as I know, you'll defo won't understand the question enough to give the correct answer, lmso.

I think you like to read your own meaning into the bible otherwise there's no arguing whether or not Elijah was taken up after chariot of fire appeared. It was clearly stated in 2Kings 2:11.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 

This is different from Philip. Acts 8:39
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

While Enoch and John the beloved can be argued, Elijah's case was clearly stated. He did not die.

Myer:
I think you like to read your own meaning into the bible otherwise there's no arguing whether or not Elijah was taken up after chariot of fire appeared. It was clearly stated in 2 Kings 2:11.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

You aren't even man enough to own up to your mistake and bad learning. Was it not you above who typed that Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, huh?

Why are you unwilling to show on here in white and black, where the Bible stats that prophet Elijah, according to you, was take-in a chariot of fire, hmm? Instead of you to acknowledge you unnecessarily read more into the Bible, telling lies that Elijah went up in a chariot you're busy trying this pathetic attempt to brush your blunder under the carpet.

Myer:
This is different from Philip. Acts 8:39
When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

While Enoch and John the beloved can be argued, Elijah's case was clearly stated. He did not die.

Will you just keep quiet. Whats the matter with you sef

John 21:23, is incontrovertible proof that Apostle John can never be argued to not die. The Bible never said Enoch and Elijah never died. In fact 365 years are the total number of years the Bible says Enoch lived. Now if Enoch did not die, then Enoch by now should be circa 6000 years old, nobi so?

Fyi, what Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11 and Philip. Acts 8:39, have in common, is the force that got hold of, snatched and lifted them away. Think of the force that parted the Red Sea, wide enough for the Israelites to walk on a dry sea bed to the promised land

If it makes you sleep well at night, please enjoy ignorantly aiding and abetting spreading all these your false and misleading information here on this thread, smh sigh

Splinz:

I understand.

However, we are also enjoined to, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" II Timothy 2:15.

So it's not enough to just quote the Bible. Are you quoting it rightly?



Are you sure Elijah did not die? Can you prove it? After the "chariot of fire" incident, do you know where Elijah was taken to?

Be careful not to make assumptions. PROVE IT!

Whilst it is true that Elijah was indeed taken into heaven. The question is: WHICH HEAVEN?

Throughout the Bible, the word “heaven” is used to describe three locations: First, there is the atmosphere that envelops the earth; this is the first heaven. Next, the vast regions of outer space are collectively referred to as “heaven,” or “the heavens” (Psalms 115:16); this is the second heaven. Finally, the location of God’s throne is specifically called “the third heaven” by Paul (II Cor. 12:2).

Since no human being has ever ascended into the third-heaven - God's throne, even David is not in heaven (John 3:13, Acts 2:34), only two possibilities remain for Elijah;

1. Outer space

2. The atmosphere or clouds (1 Thes. 4:17)

We also know for a fact that human beings can't breath in space, so then, we are left with the ATMOSPHERE OR CLOUDS as the only option for Elijah. This is the only logical conclusion considering the facts.

Elijah was indeed taken into the atmosphere or clouds, supernaturally. Actually, he was transported to another location on earth, where he lived the remainder of his days in accordance with the Scripture. Also note, clouds, as mentioned in 1 Thes. 4:17, are only a few miles above the earth. In fact, flying an airplane is in a sense, going to heaven.

Further proof that Elijah was transported to another location is this. Few years after he was taken away, Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, king of Judah, rebuking him for his evil ways (II Chron. 21:12). Of course, this can only happen on Earth, not in heaven!

Regards.

No where in the bible was it stated that Elijah was translated to another location.
What was stated was that he was taken to heaven. His next mention was in the book of Malachi 4:5 which says that he would return which Jesus confirmed was John the Baptist.

That Elijah wrote a letter in 2 Chronicles 21:12 does not mean it was a later date after he was taken to heaven.
If you've ever read the books of Chronicles you would have observed that events already documented in the books of Samuel and Kings were also repeated in Chronicles.

I'm glad you quoted the verse "...rightly dividing the word of truth." This is not to be mistaken for complicating scriptures but rather simplifying it.

it is not about what is written alone but how it is read and understood. Luke 10:26
2 Peter 3:15-16 Stop trying to twist scriptures.

The bible states it in clear terms that Elijah was taken to heaven in 2 Kings 2:11.
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared aachariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and bElijah went up by acwhirlwind into heaven. 

There's nothing to argue here.

MuttleyLaff:
You aren't even man enough to own up to your mistake and bad learning. Was it not you above who typed that Elijah was taken in a chariot of fire, huh?

Why are you unwilling to show on here in white and black, where the Bible stats that prophet Elijah, according to you, was take-in a chariot of fire, hmm? Instead of you to acknowledge you unnecessarily read more into the Bible, telling lies that Elijah went up in a chariot you're busy trying this pathetic attempt to brush your blunder under the carpet.

Will you just keep quiet. Whats the matter with you sef

John 21:23, is incontrovertible proof that Apostle John can never be argued to not die. The Bible never said Enoch and Elijah never died. In fact 365 years are the total number of years the Bible says Enoch lived. Now if Enoch did not die, then Enoch by now should be circa 6000 years old, nobi so?

Fyi, what Elijah in 2 Kings 2:11 and Philip. Acts 8:39, have in common, is the force that got hold of, snatched and lifted them away. Think of the force that parted the Red Sea, wide enough for the Israelites to walk on a dry sea bed to the promised land

If it makes you sleep well at night, please enjoy ignorantly aiding and abetting spreading all these your false and misleading information here on this thread, smh sigh

Why are you deviating?
Whether he was taken in a chariot of fire or whirlwind, which occurred simultaneously, the fact of the matter is that he did not die but was taken to heaven.

If you don't want to accept that, then write your own version of the bible with whatever twists and concoctions that make you happy.

[img]https://s5/images/ezgif-2-bb81ab7ea10d.gif[/img]
At least you've had the good sense to not repeat that Elijah went up in a chariot of fire

Myer:
Why are you deviating?
Whether he was taken in a chariot of fire or whirlwind, which occurred simultaneously, the fact of the matter is that he did not die but was taken to heaven.

If you don't want to accept that, then write your own version of the bible with whatever twists and concoctions that make you happy.

The only persons I know who are deviating from bible ground rules are you and your incorrigible cohorts

Pride won't allow you admit you made a long standing boo-boo. Why can't you swallow your pride and conceited self-assurance.

Its someone like you who doesnt know what function were the chariot of fire with horses of fire there for performing. You are behaving like a shameless thief caught in the village square with hand stuck in the cookie jar. From your bad Sunday school learning years, you've until today, always believed that Elijah went up in a chariot of fire with horses of fire, lmso.

2Ch 21:12  And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

John Gill also has a plausable eplanation for this:

And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet,.... Not what was written by him after his ascension to heaven, and from thence came to Jehoram, even seven years after that, as say some Jewish writers (z); nor was it a writing from another person of the same name in those times, since of such an one we nowhere read; nor from Elisha bearing the name of Elijah, having a double portion of his spirit on him, since he is never so called; but this was a writing of Elijah's before his ascension, who, foreseeing by a spirit of prophecy what Jehoram would be guilty of, wrote this, and gave it to one of the prophets, as Kimchi suggests, and most probably to Elisha, to communicate it to him at a proper time; and who might, as the above writer intimates, think it came immediately from heaven:

ihedinobi2:


Hey there.

Hello friend.

ihedinobi2:

I think that you have ignored a few other options in your analysis.

Really? Okay, let's see.

ihedinobi2:

It is true that the Bible speaks of three heavens: the twin heavens of the atmosphere and outer space and the third Heaven which is not a part of this creation and where God dwells.

Good.

ihedinobi2:

That is to say that the Bible thinks of the human person as being a spirit that belongs to a unique body of its own. As such, it treats the "empty house," so to speak, as if it were the same as its owner, the spirit. So, when the Bible says that Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven, it doesn't have to be understood as Elijah's spirit going into heaven. It can also be understood as Elijah's body going into heaven.

How can you come up with such wild assumption right after quoting verses like Ecclesiastes 12:7? What's Elijah's body doing in heaven when it's supposed to returned to the dust? Is Elijah's body much more important than the Lord's own that descended into hell for three days and night? Hmm.

ihedinobi2:

When we compare this interpretation to Jude 1:9, it seems to me to make perfect sense, since the same thing seems to be what is happening with Moses's body. Both bodies were taken to the Third Heaven for preservation.

Hello sir, are you kidding me now? Sorry, this is ridiculous!

Please take a look at this again:

ihedinobi2:

5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day.
Deuteronomy 34:5-6 (NKJV)

Right there, the same scripture that you quoted, it is expressly stated where God buried Moses, in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor. Obviously, a location on Earth.

So which of Mose's body was taken to heaven for preservation, and which one was buried in the land of Moab? Oh forgive me, I forgot that it was his spirit that was buried.

Ridiculous!

ihedinobi2:

Clearly, it only said that no one had ever ascended to Heaven at the time of the Lord's speaking, not that no one ever would. No human being was allowed into the Third Heaven before Jesus Christ went to the Cross and paid the price for all human sin. That was why every Old Testament believer was taken to Paradise in Sheol until Jesus died on the Cross. Although it was a place of delight where they fellowshipped with God too, it was not "home" for them. That is why the Bible called them "prisoners" in Isaiah 14:17, Job 3:18, Psalm 68:18, and Ephesians 4:8. They had to wait until the Lord Jesus paid the price for their release, and after He did, they went to the Third Heaven with Him

Really? Okay, let's find out if this thing is so.

Acts 2:34, "For David did not ascend into heaven...". So where's David? "...David... he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us till this day", verse 29. Put another way, David is in his grave. Simple.

This is Peter speaking after the Lord's resurrection and ascension. In essence, Peter is simply amplifying the word of God as stated by Christ in John 3:13.

So how come sir? How could David, a man after God's heart not make it to heaven after the so-called release?

Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).

ihedinobi2:


The argument that you made that because humans cannot breathe outside the earth's atmosphere Elijah must not have gone beyond the atmosphere then can be seen not to have taken into full account the possibility that he had been separated from his body, so that breathing was no longer any kind of issue for him. His spirit was taken to Paradise while his body was taken to the Third Heaven.

Sorry, there's no such possibility. Your wild speculations does not just rubbished sound scriptural truths but even common sense. It's at best, a figment of the imagination, as far as the Bible is concerned.

ihedinobi2:

The other argument that Elijah wrote some letter after the whirlwind and chariots of fire incident is also pure speculation, from where I stand. There doesn't seem to me to be a single reason why we should think that it must be the same Elijah of whom the Bible speaks in that passage. When we take into account everything else that I have just said above, it seems to me that the already speculative argument completely collapses. It can't be the same Elijah since he was not even on the Earth anymore to be writing a letter.

You wouldn't know of course. I mean, how can you know when you don't even know the author of the letter?

Now we know who's speculating.

ihedinobi2:

That is to say this argument is not necessary at all to explain Elijah's disappearance when everything else in the Bible is considered. When we consider it, it distorts everything else that the Bible teaches.

You don't argue facts: they are stated; facts are facts.

The irony here is that, you're not just distorting scriptural truths but doing so in a very dangerous manner.

Regards.

Myer:


No where in the bible was it stated that Elijah was translated to another location.
What was stated was that he was taken to heaven.

What if I tell you that I was in heaven three days ago?

Indeed, ignorance is a choice.

johnw47:

2Ch 21:12  And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,

John Gill also has a plausable eplanation for this:

And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet,.... Not what was written by him after his ascension to heaven, and from thence came to Jehoram, even seven years after that, as say some Jewish writers (z); nor was it a writing from another person of the same name in those times, since of such an one we nowhere read; nor from Elisha bearing the name of Elijah, having a double portion of his spirit on him, since he is never so called; but this was a writing of Elijah's before his ascension, who, foreseeing by a spirit of prophecy what Jehoram would be guilty of, wrote this, and gave it to one of the prophets, as Kimchi suggests, and most probably to Elisha, to communicate it to him at a proper time; and who might, as the above writer intimates, think it came immediately from heaven:

I think that this is also within biblical limits. Isaiah did prophesy specifically about Cyrus way before he even lived, and John prophesies about the Antichrist in much the same way with some considerable detail too.

So you could be right.

Splinz:

The Bible says, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" 1 Thessalonians 5:21. Have you proven that Enoch did not die, that he lives? Are you sure?

If you are not satisfied with the Clear Oddity of the Report Surrounding his "Plucking", that is Before him it is stated "and he died, and he died and he died"

In his case, it was stated, "and he was not;" (did you ask the question why he was not?) And the Bible Answers, because, "God took him"

Then, the Bible again returned "and he died, and he died and he died"!

If this Unusual Event/Anomally is not Noteworthy, well it is your judgement and I do not have power to alter it, for i stand by what is there.

Splinz:

Whilst I understand that accepting glaring evidence that Enoch, like every other person died, could cause devastating blow to your probably 'heaven-bound or rapture' belief, but come on... This shouldn't be a problem to The Truth Speaker- a defender and one who speaks the truth. Right?

I intend to avoid all occasions of foolishness so I already know that Enoch's Living or Death, is not my Death, which I wish to Avoid At All Cost, So, save that he is a good example of how to walk with the Lord and Please Him, he has no connection with my death which I wish to avoid.

Therefore, Enoch's Dying, does not change anything in me just like his father Jared, Ma-halale-el and others, meant nothing to me.

Splinz:

Okay, so let's be like the Bereans, and "...find out whether these things were so" Acts 17:11.

Speaking of Enoch, the holy scripture says, "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him" Genesis 5:24. Please take note of the italicized word- walked. Of course I wouldn't bored you with the definition. You're a learned person.

Now, here's what you're telling us in essence: you're saying that 'Enoch is walking with God'. But the bible says "Enoch walked". Does it mean we don't know our tenses again? Whose report shall we believe, yours or that of the scripture?

So then, if Enoch did not die and lives, he would still be walking (present tense) with God and not walked (past tense).

I have already presented my case above and I stand on it and I will not be saying anything beyond the scriptures, which I know and understand to be True.

I will not be adding to my statement just like I would not be adding to the Bible.

Splinz:

I'm sorry friend, you're spreading falsehood and not the truth.

Does this edifies anyone? I don't think so.

Many thanks.

I Spoke Only the Truth in my heart, to accept or reject it, is in your power, but I spoke the Truth!

Splinz:


Hello friend.



Really? Okay, let's see.



Good.



How can you come up with such wild assumption right after quoting verses like Ecclesiastes 12:7? What's Elijah's body doing in heaven when it's supposed to returned to the dust? Is Elijah's body much more important than the Lord's own that descended into hell for three days and night? Hmm.



Hello sir, are you kidding me now? Sorry, this is ridiculous!

Please take a look at this again:


Right there, the same scripture that you quoted, it is expressly stated where God buried Moses, in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor. Obviously, a location on Earth.

So which of Mose's body was taken to heaven for preservation, and which one was buried in the land of Moab? Oh forgive me, I forgot that it was his spirit that was buried.

Ridiculous!


Really? Okay, let's find out if this thing was so.

Acts 2:34, "For David did not ascend into heaven...". So where's David? "...David... he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us till this day", verse 29. Put another way, David is in his grave. Simple.

This is Peter speaking after the Lord's resurrection and ascension. In essence, Peter is simply amplifying the word of God as stated by Christ in John 3:13.

So how come sir? How could David, a man after God's heart not make it to heaven after the so-called release?

Let God be true and every man a liar (Romans 3:4).


Sorry, there's no such possibility. Your wild speculations does not just rubbished sound scriptural truths but even common sense. It's at best, a figment of the imagination, as far as the Bible is concerned.



You wouldn't know of course. I mean, how can you know when you don't even know the author of the letter?

Now we know who's speculating.



You don't argue facts: they are stated; facts are facts.

The irony here is that, you're not just distorting scriptural truths but doing so in a very dangerous manner.

Regards.

I don't really see anything that limits God as to His Will. The only limits that I know of are those that He imposes on Himself. If God says that He will do a given thing, then He is bound by His Word to do it. Otherwise, nothing forces Him to do things this or that way. For this reason, a general principle does not bind God to do the exact same thing in all cases when He is free to make exceptions.

It is a general principle that the bodies of human beings and animals decay, but the Lord has not bound Himself to carry out this sentence on every single case. This is precisely why the Bible gives us Enoch, Moses, and Elijah as special cases in all human history (and we also have the saints who will live to see Jesus return to take into consideration too).

I don't see the point in comparing the Lord's experience to those of these three men. The Lord's Body never decayed and He was resurrected in a perfect, eternal body too, so I would think that He is demonstrated in the Bible as being preeminent in every way. None of these other men has been resurrected. When Moses and Elijah among them return to the earth, they will come back in mortal, sinful bodies, and they will be susceptible to death still, which is why they will be able to be killed by the Antichrist. So, I don't agree with your position on them.

Regarding Moses's gravesite, I don't disagree that he was buried on Earth at first. My position goes beyond what happened to his body at first. I hold that it was eventually taken to the third Heaven. I have raised Jude 1:9 to explain this. Do you have some other way of explaining it that does not only not attack some other part of the Scriptures, but in fact upholds and illuminates the rest of the Bible?

Regarding David, I did say that it is the body that was being spoken of.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions. I don't claim any right to either make or change them for you. And it is of little consequence to me what your judgment of me is. I certainly don't see what difference it makes to the validity and truth of your position or of mine for that matter.

I called it speculation for the same reason that anyone who says that they just had a letter written to them this month by my dad only because the letter bears his name would be talking madness since my dad hasn't been alive for three months now. It would be absurd to make such a claim. My dad is not the only human being by his name or profession. Very few people are. I find it hard to believe that there was only one prophet Elijah in Israel at the time. There may have been, but why should I assume that there was? I can admit that one oversight on my part was the possibility that Elijah wrote that letter before he was taken from the earth. That is not strange in prophecy. But it is madness to claim that after the Lord had him anoint a successor to his ministry and after the multiple testimonies to the effect that the Lord was about to remove him from his place over Elisha as the foremost prophet over Israel, Elijah would still be around writing letters.

14 And he said, “I have been very zealous for the LORD God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.” 15 Then the LORD said to him: “Go, return on your way to the Wilderness of Damascus; and when you arrive, anoint Hazael as king over Syria. 16 Also you shall anoint Jehu the son of Nimshi as king over Israel. And Elisha the son of Shaphat of Abel Meholah you shall anoint as prophet in your place. 17 It shall be that whoever escapes the sword of Hazael, Jehu will kill; and whoever escapes the sword of Jehu, Elisha will kill. 18 Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”
1 Kings 19:14-18 (NKJV)

1 And it came to pass, when the LORD was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the LORD has sent me on to Bethel.” But Elisha said, “As the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So they went down to Bethel. 3 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Bethel came out to Elisha, and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master from over you today?” And he said, “Yes, I know; keep silent!” 4 Then Elijah said to him, “Elisha, stay here, please, for the LORD has sent me on to Jericho.” But he said, “As the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So they came to Jericho. 5 Now the sons of the prophets who were at Jericho came to Elisha and said to him, “Do you know that the LORD will take away your master from over you today?” So he answered, “Yes, I know; keep silent!” 6 Then Elijah said to him, “Stay here, please, for the LORD has sent me on to the Jordan.” But he said, “As the LORD lives, and as your soul lives, I will not leave you!” So the two of them went on. 7 And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went and stood facing them at a distance, while the two of them stood by the Jordan. 8 Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground. 9 And so it was, when they had crossed over, that Elijah said to Elisha, “Ask! What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?” Elisha said, “Please let a double portion of your spirit be upon me.” 10 So he said, “You have asked a hard thing. Nevertheless, if you see me when I am taken from you, it shall be so for you; but if not, it shall not be so.” 11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. 12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more. And he took hold of his own clothes and tore them into two pieces. 13 He also took up the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood by the bank of the Jordan. 14 Then he took the mantle of Elijah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, and said, “Where is the LORD God of Elijah?” And when he also had struck the water, it was divided this way and that; and Elisha crossed over. 15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. 16 Then they said to him, “Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the LORD has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.” And he said, “You shall not send anyone.” 17 But when they urged him till he was ashamed, he said, “Send them!” Therefore they sent fifty men, and they searched for three days but did not find him. 18 And when they came back to him, for he had stayed in Jericho, he said to them, “Did I not say to you, ‘Do not go’?”
2 Kings 2:1-18 (NKJV)

I confess to being very unwilling indeed to believe any claims that Elijah was dropped off somewhere else on Earth after catching a supernatural ride on a whirlwind. It doesn't fit the Scriptures at all. As you can see up there in the text, you are not the first to think such a thing. Like those sons of the prophets, you are wrong too. But you don't have to believe me.

Since we are speaking of facts, I have posted the passages and I have been posting Scriptures along with everything I have said. I certainly have offered interpretation for what I have posted, but you can disregard my interpretations and describe how your own position fits with what the Bible actually says, that is, with the facts themselves. So far, it seems to me as if you have been taking wild liberties with the Scriptures here.

No head, no tail, body making no sense, but nothing other than less amusing to read confused-up dot com long winded nonsense. The terrible air of finality espoused in the post(s) is unforgivably cringeworthy to read. I know I can enjoy better go sweep leaves up in my front lawn and garden or watch paint dry

MuttleyLaff:


If by your insistent ignorance, "Enoch did not Die, He Lives!" sic, then answer the following:
1/ Why isn't there any reoccurrence of a human being not physically dying like Enoch according to you alleges didnt die but lives on, hmm

Bros oh, you are asking the wrong person oh! I have No Power to Appoint who shall be Taken and who shall not be Taken at all, for there to be a reoccurrence.

Abeg oh, I do not Determine these things.

MuttleyLaff:

2/ Who was Methuselah's father or what is Methuselah's father's name?
3/ What is the meaning of the Hebrew name Methuselah?
4/ Are you at all conversant or familiar with the "Methuselah genealogy flood" prophecy?
5/ After answering #2, 3 and 4 above, has the penny dropped yet for you, as of realising what death Enoch didnt die from, hmm?

I do not know the Relevance of these things and frankly I do not wish to know,Yeah, I Fear False Prophets well-well, so I do not go outside my KjV Bible, for that one, I know very well and I am very satisfied with the results I have obtained from it.

Since I am very Satisfied with All I have done to verify the Truthfulness of the KjV Bible, I seek not another.

Therefore, what is in the KjV, is Good and True, and I accept it and What isn't, I am very much fine to live without it and dispense with it.


"So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
(i.e. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years or so Enoch's life lasted 365 years)"
- Genesis 5:23

MuttleyLaff:

You say "...He Lives!", yet Moshe aka Moses, who penned this information, tells us that Enoch lived a total of 365 years, meaning the entire lifetime of Enoch was 365 years, yet you in the most ignorant and falling foul of scripture hermeneutic and exegesis keep putting your foot in your mouth when you say Enoch did not physically die and make it worse, say he lives, when the only part of Enoch that lives, while awaiting the trumpet sound is his soul, as his body has long gone back to being dust, lmso

Do not lose focus of the question! The question is not "how long Enoch lived on the face of the earth" But whether he died after 365 years on the face of the earth

MuttleyLaff:

What is the name of this "Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!" sic called, please bring up scripture verse(s) to back up your answer with. Thank you in advance for complying, lmso

You have to Ask The Owner and King of Those Territories, not I, for I do not own them, therefore I can not know their Names.

As to the Territories/Domain of God you already know that

1) "The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." Psalm 24:1.

2) Isaiah 66:1 "Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:

Let us put Aside the identifying of the Throne and look at the footstool.

I had explained it earlier in this manner.
"The Earth is God's Foot Stool, So Imagine How BIG, The House, (That Contains) The Foot Stool Must Be to Contain it. (Praises Be To God That we All know How "big" a foot stool is in proportion to a House, that is how small it really is).

And Footstools Are Kept Inside a House, when in use.

This is Also Where You Appreciate The Gravity of "In My Father's House, There are Many Mansions". John 14:2

Could you Ponder about how large a House must be to contain Many Mansion which contains a footstool?

Dtruthspeaker:
Bros oh, you are asking the wrong person oh! I have No Power to Appoint who shall be Taken and who shall not be Taken at all, for there to be a reoccurrence.

Abeg oh, I do not Determine these things.

What is easier to do? Give your response to the asked question or to wail, bleat and give a "Bros oh, you are asking the wrong person oh! I have No Power to Appoint who shall be Taken and who shall not be Taken at all, for there to be a reoccurrence. Abeg oh, I do not Determine these things" reply. Smh sigh.

Dtruthspeaker:
[s]I do not know the Relevance of these things and frankly I do not wish to know, Yeah, I Fear False Prophets well-well, so I do not go outside my KjV Bible, for that one, I know very well and I am very satisfied with the results I have obtained from it.

Since I am very Satisfied with All I have done to verify the Truthfulness of the KjV Bible, I seek not another.

Therefore, what is in the KjV, is Good and True, and I accept it and What isn't, I am very much fine to live without it and dispense with it.[/s]

What a right load of hay stacks of codswallop. I bet you wouldnt know the relevance of those four easy, simple, direct, harmless, innocent, point-blank and straightforward questions, as you dont want your illusion to be destroyed from realising the truth, lmso. Since you still want to enjoy perpetuating the export of false information please feel free to be my guest at doing just that. I am not on this thread responding because of you but only for the sake of those you might mislead with ignorant ill-informed, undereducated Bible knowledge and bad theology

Dtruthspeaker:
Do not lose focus of the question! The question is not "how long Enoch lived on the face of the earth" But whether he died after 365 years on the face of the earth

"So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
(i.e. Altogether, Enoch lived a total of 365 years or so Enoch's life lasted 365 years)"
- Genesis 5:23

Did you skip English language and grammar lessons when in school ni. When you say "...He Lives!", this proves you lost focus, even before any form of question is asked you, because the word "lived" carries an interpretation that means the whole days someone was alive or the whole days someone lived.

There is no question, all there is there, is that Enoch, just as we all human beings do physically die, he too, died after 365 years on the face of the earth. Period. Unlike the other patriarchs who lived circa 800 to almost 1000 years, it was only Enoch whose life was cut short by dying at a young age of 365 years in comparison to others' ages in the biblical time line history

Dtruthspeaker:
You have to Ask The Owner and King of Those Territories, not I, for I do not own them, therefore I can not know their Names.

As to the Territories/Domain of God you already know that

1) "The earth is the LORD'S, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." Psalm 24:1.

2) Isaiah 66:1 "Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:

Let us put Aside the identifying of the Throne and look at the footstool.

I had explained it earlier in this manner.
"The Earth is God's Foot Stool, So Imagine How BIG, The House, (That Contains) The Foot Stool Must Be to Contain it. (Praises Be To God That we All know How "big" a foot stool is in proportion to a House, that is how small it really is).

And Footstools Are Kept Inside a House, when in use.

This is Also Where You Appreciate The Gravity of "In My Father's House, There are Many Mansions". John 14:2

Could you Ponder about how large a House must be to contain Many Mansion which contains a footstool?

Here you go again waffling stuff and nonsense, pretending that you really know the subject you're talking on, but when I lean on you and breath down neck, you uncomfortably wince, make a run for it, give some lame and flimsy excuse for not answering easy, simple, harmless, innocent, point-blank and straightforward questions directly asked you

Now watch this and see how you won't disappoint me from not giving your responses to the following questions, lmso:
1/ What physically is God's form?
2/ Is God contained in form?
3/ You typed that "Enoch did not Die, He Lives!" then you follow on, added "Where?" with you answering with: "Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!," so I hereby, now again, for the umpteen time re-ask you:
What is the name of this "Beyond the Territories of the earth which are in and within The Kingdom/Domain of God!" sic called that you believe "Enoch did not Die, He Lives!" is in, please bring up scripture verse(s) to back up your answer with. Thank you in advance for complying, lmso

I dont need to ponder on anything that I already know, as you can see from me asking you those first two questions above. if the throne is a section of a palace, (i.e. in heaven) and a footstool is a foot rest (i.e. on earth), imagine the extent of the palace, talkless the extent of the kingdom, but I aren't at all, interested in talking in talking about them lot, but all along have only been interested in telling me what is/are the name(s) of the place called, that according to the best of your knowledge and understanding where Enoch is, going by your submission that "Enoch did not Die, He Lives!" The place where Enoch is, should have a name, wouldnt it and you as intelligent and well-informed as you like portraying yourself to be, ought to know what the Bible specially, particularly and specifically calls this place?