Good evening guys,

I’m a little bit worried about my LifePo4 battery that last 5 hours when I Do charge it with electricity. But when I use solar panel it doesn’t last up to 2hours.

Even The controller shows It that That the panel stops charging battery at 95% Instead of it to be at 100%

kiekie1 eleojo23 wilmaria14 GeorgeD1 ceaser your vast experience and suggestions are needed.

GeorgeD1:
i really get amused when i see these postulations on paper how 50% dod of lead acid should be equal to
80% dod of lithium. even now we are seeing weirder assumptions of 30% being equal to 80% lead acid!
i guess its fine when we do these abstract projections but we all know that in the real world things do
turn out differently.
having said that, i think the main attraction for lithium remains its expected longevity due to the possible
many cycles as compared to lead acid. however, if my recent experience with my zenith batteries is anything
to go by, it means lead acid when properly managed can also give many years of use without conking out
(by the way, my guy who bought the used zeniths from me has had nothing but praise for their
outstanding performance). quite remarkable given they already served me for 7 years plus as at the time i
replaced them and sold them off.
then, enter the hoppeckes, the exides, the sonnenscheins which promise up to 15 years of quality backup
for their lead acid batteries and the attraction for lithium further takes a dive.
while the lithium jingle continues unabated, my candid advice to newbies is to be wary of bogus promises
from sellers intent on offloading their lithium wares on them. they will come up with several clever marketing
tactics all intended to make a sale.
if you're just starting off on the renewables journey, you will do well to stick with tried and tested products of
which lead acid batteries is one example. you really don't need to dabble into lithium where you have to
contend with a whole gamut of bos devices including bms, bmv, cell balancers, special chargers with lithium
profile, inverters which have to be tinkered with in order to work with lithium, etc.
the world is already complex as it is, you don't need to complicate things further just because you want to
provide reliable uninterrupted power for your household.
go with what works out of the box. a word is enough...

If I recall the experience you previously shared your zenith operated at between 30 to 50% DOD with cumulative low charge/discharge C rates. As to Exide lead acid, those are monsters in all levels most especially in capacity, weight and volume. Am not sure why one will be comparing that with LFP (in this context) as it will be a very unnecessary effort. Though ofcourse I will pick LFP over those exide especially for household use.

That said, one man's food is another man's poison so yes I also encourage folks to make informed decision for their backup system.

funshyboi:
Good evening guys,

I’m a little bit worried about my LifePo4 battery that last 5 hours when I Do charge it with electricity. But when I use solar panel it doesn’t last up to 2hours.

Even The controller shows It that That the panel stops charging battery at 95% Instead of it to be at 100%

kiekie1 eleojo23 wilmaria14 GeorgeD1 ceaser your vast experience and suggestions are needed.

Hello, you haven't really provided complete details & clear picture of your system !

GeorgeD1:
i really get amused when i see these postulations on paper how 50% dod of lead acid should be equal to
80% dod of lithium. even now we are seeing weirder assumptions of 30% being equal to 80% lead acid!
i guess its fine when we do these abstract projections but we all know that in the real world things do
turn out differently.
having said that, i think the main attraction for lithium remains its expected longevity due to the possible
many cycles as compared to lead acid. however, if my recent experience with my zenith batteries is anything
to go by, it means lead acid when properly managed can also give many years of use without conking out
(by the way, my guy who bought the used zeniths from me has had nothing but praise for their
outstanding performance). quite remarkable given they already served me for 7 years plus as at the time i
replaced them and sold them off.
then, enter the hoppeckes, the exides, the sonnenscheins which promise up to 15 years of quality backup
for their lead acid batteries and the attraction for lithium further takes a dive.
while the lithium jingle continues unabated, my candid advice to newbies is to be wary of bogus promises
from sellers intent on offloading their lithium wares on them. they will come up with several clever marketing
tactics all intended to make a sale.
if you're just starting off on the renewables journey, you will do well to stick with tried and tested products of
which lead acid batteries is one example. you really don't need to dabble into lithium where you have to
contend with a whole gamut of bos devices including bms, bmv, cell balancers, special chargers with lithium
profile, inverters which have to be tinkered with in order to work with lithium, etc.
the world is already complex as it is, you don't need to complicate things further just because you want to
provide reliable uninterrupted power for your household.
go with what works out of the box. a word is enough...

This is what is called FUD, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt and it is used by many to fight new technologies they either don't like or understand.
Yes, Lead acid batteries have been tested, but not trusted. Its glaring failures is the reason why the world has constantly being trying to find better alternative since the turn of the centuries and Lithium in its various iterations have been shown to be better in all ways than Lead acid.

For me, while longevity is an important attraction for Lithium, what I like most about it is its ability to hold up its voltage until it is almost completely drained. It is the reason why it is possible to take the advertised AH out of a lithium battery while that is difficult for lead acid. Of course there are so many other advantages, but I will recommend that anyone interested should read up about them.

As to BMS, BMV, Special Chargers etc, most batteries including lead acid requires all of these except a BMS. And the reason why lead acid don't require BMS is because the owners serve as the BMS. With a good BMS, your battery is protected from OVERVOLTAGE, OVERDISCHARGE, OVERCHARGE and even sometimes Short Circuit. With lead acid, the owners will have to do these by babysitting the battery. Every battery require adjustable charger. That some peope use chargers with stock parameters is because the chargers are cheaper and the owners do not know better. If you can not adjust the voltage and current of your charger to match the specifications of your battery, you will soon destroy the battery, lead acid more quickly than lithium as the BMS will always protect your lithium.

Anyone starting off, who has the capacity to get lithium should get it without hesitation, it is your best bet. You will not have to change it in 8 months to 2 years like most lead acid battery. And no one should be deceived by the hype of 10 year old lead acid batteries. In some rare cases that can happen, if the battery bank is large and rarely deeply discharged. For most people with a small bank that sees regular deep discharges, if your lead acid batteries last 4 years, you have done well. And don't be deceived by those 15 years design life. You can only get that from most if the batteries are mostly floating as it happens in some settings especially for telecoms.

And FYI, I currently have two battery banks. A 540AH lead acid that I have had for about 5 years and a 340AH LFP of about a year duration. If I have the means I have now and know what I know now about LFP more than 10 years ago when I started my solar journey, I would have started out with lithium.

funshyboi:
Good evening guys,

I’m a little bit worried about my LifePo4 battery that last 5 hours when I Do charge it with electricity. But when I use solar panel it doesn’t last up to 2hours.

Even The controller shows It that That the panel stops charging battery at 95% Instead of it to be at 100%

kiekie1 eleojo23 wilmaria14 GeorgeD1 ceaser your vast experience and suggestions are needed.

What kind of charge controller do you have and have you set the parameters properly especially, length of absorption, end amps, absorption voltage etc.

GeorgeD1:


be careful bro, 200ah 24v lead acid is far higher in capacity compared to 100ah 24v lithium.
don't get sucked in by the lithium hype.

Lol Oga Boss

GeorgeD1:
i really get amused when i see these postulations on paper how 50% dod of lead acid should be equal to
80% dod of lithium. even now we are seeing weirder assumptions of 30% being equal to 80% lead acid!
i guess its fine when we do these abstract projections but we all know that in the real world things do
turn out differently.
having said that, i think the main attraction for lithium remains its expected longevity due to the possible
many cycles as compared to lead acid. however, if my recent experience with my zenith batteries is anything
to go by, it means lead acid when properly managed can also give many years of use without conking out
(by the way, my guy who bought the used zeniths from me has had nothing but praise for their
outstanding performance). quite remarkable given they already served me for 7 years plus as at the time i
replaced them and sold them off.
then, enter the hoppeckes, the exides, the sonnenscheins which promise up to 15 years of quality backup
for their lead acid batteries and the attraction for lithium further takes a dive.
while the lithium jingle continues unabated, my candid advice to newbies is to be wary of bogus promises
from sellers intent on offloading their lithium wares on them. they will come up with several clever marketing
tactics all intended to make a sale.
if you're just starting off on the renewables journey, you will do well to stick with tried and tested products of
which lead acid batteries is one example. you really don't need to dabble into lithium where you have to
contend with a whole gamut of bos devices including bms, bmv, cell balancers, special chargers with lithium
profile, inverters which have to be tinkered with in order to work with lithium, etc.
the world is already complex as it is, you don't need to complicate things further just because you want to
provide reliable uninterrupted power for your household.
go with what works out of the box. a word is enough...

Quite Vivid & Lucid .. Weldone Sir !

If one must go lithium way, it's best to deeply study it's chemistry before dabbling into it to avoid fire or stories that touch as we've some substandard prototypes with incoherent~falsified datasheet coming into the market these days tho

LIFEPO4 is one of the safest battery chemistries. By a long stretch. I have seen lead acid exploded in cars before.

kiekie1:


Quite Vivid & Lucid .. Weldone Sir !

If one must go lithium way, it's best to deeply study it's chemistry before dabbling into it to avoid fire or stories that touch as we've some substandard prototypes with incoherent~falsified datasheet coming into the market these days tho

More FUD!

If you can afford it, go lithium, and thank me later. If you can not, buy lead acid and start saving for lithium. I don't sell either of them, but I have worked extensively with both.

adrusa:


More FUD!

Lol Chief ! I no dey sell lithium give customer if prospect ain't got budget for neither byd nor pylontech etc stacked in its rack with necessary bms kits. Na felicity go be last resort for now

adrusa:
If you can afford it, go lithium, and thank me later. If you can not, buy lead acid and start saving for lithium. I don't sell either of them, but I have worked extensively with both.

Lol all man to him choice although AGM & Flooded specs still rule for now .. I guess some still don't know we have Die-hard deep cycle batteries with long cyclic/shell life existing till date #Nagode

kiekie1:


Quite Vivid & Lucid .. Weldone Sir !

If one must go lithium way, it's best to deeply study it's chemistry before dabbling into it to avoid fire or stories that touch as we've some substandard prototypes with incoherent~falsified datasheet coming into the market these days tho

If one must go into any backup system it's important to take time to study. There are many and I mean many substandard lead acid and I can perhaps say they exist most in lead acid than Lithium. As to risk, lithium ion (li-ion) are definitely not as safe especially if the person does not know what he is doing and I Stan those that use that chemistry without an appropriate BMS. However LFPs are extremely safe and infact safer than most lead acids.

Having used lead acid and now LFP, my only wish was to have known about it before the time I started using it. I also had many doubts when I first procured my 200AH LFP but in few days I feel in love and just had to increase my capacity.

I have been trying to do a natural depletion on the recent upgrade of mine since over 2 weeks that I put it in service and I have only been able to get above 300AH with just 2cycle thus far, notice the battery voltage after over 50% depletion, that is one of the sweetest part. Also checkout the peak discharge current of 84A today, if I had done that on my previous lead acid the inverter would have surely tripped due to the voltage draw that will reach my the battery cut off voltage set.

Once again this is not a lithium buy recommendation because ultimately one has to face the fact that "one man food is another man's poison".

adrusa:
If you can afford it, go lithium, and thank me later. If you can not, buy lead acid and start saving for lithium. I don't sell either of them, but I have worked extensively with both.

Please any recommendation on reliable seller of LFP, and price range. Thanks

All the Lithium vs Lead Acid discussions, interesting ideas and takes coming up.

I think some of people's experiences are driven by bias in how they obtained their measurements.

I have heard it said repeatedly that voltage will sag beyond useable levels before you get Lead Acid beyond 50% DoD - this is not true at all. A premium inverter like Victron, the lowest Low Voltage Disconnect is around 37v in a 48v nominal system. You can drain your Lead Acid to 100% DoD if you so wish just that it will have a much shorter service life.

If you had an indian type inverter with LVD at 11.5v per 12v nominal, it would appear the battery has given all useable energy early whereas the real bottleneck is the inverter cutoff.

In practice, to safely deep discharge Lead Acid, you must understand how amps rise as voltage drops for thesame amount of power and size your cables, busbars, breakers and fuses appropriately.

I went for LFP because of superior safety and stability. I went for a premium pylontech as I am entirely offgrid and needed a product that could deliver under heavy duty daily use.

For my chemistry, 3.2v per cell is about the safe discharge limit before destructive chemical processes and imbalances begin in the cells. This is about 80% DoD. I routinely did 75% DoD for almost a year until I added the last set of 4 bricks.

This precise cutoff is also helped by having an inverter capable of invoking a disconnect based on SoC. In the Victron world, the PylonTech battery can broadcast its precise SoC to the Victron GX who then communicates to the MultiPlus or Quattro's inbuilt battery monitor. So even as my batteries age, I can assure I always cutoff at 25% SoC/75% DoD and a little above 3.2v per cell.

This is far more reliable than voltage based cutoffs especially in situations where you do not/cannot put in a full charge into the battery. Once I discovered Victron's shutdown on SoC feature, I visited all sites I support (even the lead acid ones) and performed the settings change for free. For lead acid, I can ignore voltage based cutoff and simply set a true 50 to 55% DoD limit.

These value added features not easily recreated el cheapo are the justification for a premium inverter with comms and a premium battery that can speak to the inverter and charge controllers directly.

Indeed in a controlled setting where the KwH energy needs are fixed, given thesame nominal voltage and a target 50% DoD for Lead Acid (you will replace the bank every 2 to 4 years) and 80% DoD for Lithium.

125Ah Lithium at 80% DoD will give about thesame energy as 200Ah lead acid at 50% DoD.

For sure the lifespan of the lead acid battery will be much shorter in this scenario than it's Lithium equivalent. This is just one of the many tradeoffs that must be made.

In most systems 100% DoD is not feasible unless the battery capacity was understated ab initio

funshyboi:
Good evening guys,

I’m a little bit worried about my LifePo4 battery that last 5 hours when I Do charge it with electricity. But when I use solar panel it doesn’t last up to 2hours.

Even The controller shows It that That the panel stops charging battery at 95% Instead of it to be at 100%

What is the size and type of LFP you use?

Do you mind mentioning the size of the solar panels and type of charge controller you use?

What type of inverter do you use?

What is the size of the load connected to your inverter?

The above may help get a clearer insight what is happening to your setup.

kiekie1:


Hello, you haven't really provided complete details & clear picture of your system !

Attached is the picture
Up on the roof I have a 160 and 80watts panels connected in parallel and the battery is 40 amps (480watts)

mctfopt:


What is the size and type of LFP you use?

Do you mind mentioning the size of the solar panels and type of charge controller you use?

What type of inverter do you use?

What is the size of the load connected to your inverter?

The above may help get a clearer insight what is happening to your setup.

40 amps (480watts) is the size of the battery
The size of the panels are 160 and 80 ways connected in parallel

The type of inverter is attached in the picture

Mainly the load I connected to my system are just one 32inches LG TV and 2 phones charging simultaneously

Thanks as I await your response

adrusa:


What kind of charge controller do you have and have you set the parameters properly especially, length of absorption, end amps, absorption voltage etc.

I use wpm controller, (picture attached)
About parameters I don’t think I know my way around that there are only 3 buttons on the controller can guide on how to set the parameters guess I have pressed the wrong things.

adrusa:


What kind of charge controller do you have and have you set the parameters properly especially, length of absorption, end amps, absorption voltage etc.

He probably uses a PWM CC to charge it. The float voltage setting may not be up to the value required to give the battery a full 100% charge whereas the AC charger gets the battery to full.

Again he needs to be sure of the voltmeter he reckons with if it is programmed for use with Lithium. Lead acid 100% charge is a little different from LFP 100% charge.

Edited: Seen that he uses a PWM. @Funshyboi, maybe you should refer to the controller's manual for going about the settings.

How even is your panel insolation? Shading? Orientation? Not to forget that the monsoon is still upon us, hence harvest from panels will still be in the troughs and except the panels are well oversized to cater to insolation downtimes, you can only expect increased yield during the dry months.

kiekie1:


Quite Vivid & Lucid .. Weldone Sir !

If one must go lithium way, it's best to deeply study it's chemistry before dabbling into it to avoid fire or stories that touch as we've some substandard prototypes with incoherent~falsified datasheet coming into the market these days tho

Li-ion 18/65/0s are about the most flammable and incendiary of the lithium chemistries, yet it was originally used in electric vehicles with huge successes. The shift to LFP from Li-ion 18/65/0s in electric vehicles is due to the former having lighter density for power, easy to customize the shape for the application and of course a higher safety margin from likelihood of fire.

I have had a personal experience of 18/65/0s fire (in my crib) and I later discovered the problem to be due to cell mismatch by the guy that handled the assembling. I got to know this because I later sourced for cells (cells salvaged from electric cars on display in showrooms and dealerships) from him and noticed those disparities while bottom balancing the cells before assembling. In fact, about 5 out of the total 800 cells are dead cells and the dude would have just assembled it together as a pack.

As a matter of fact, you can safely use 18/65/0 cells in 2s and 3s config without BMS provided you DO NOT discharge 'em so much; they don't go out of sync for a long time without BMS if you don't deep discharge them, but that doesn't invalidate the importance of the BMS.

LFP is much more safer, even in thermal runway scenarios. And with the use of BMS is absolutely far more safer. My LFP supplier claims the cells were sourced as grade A cells (agreeing with your point that lithium must be good cells in order to even consider using them) before they were assembled into the pack, so your suggestion that most packs (in those plastic covers) are from salvaged/used packs is untrue. Ojeysky is another member that I believe observes adequate diligence in his LFP cells acquisition. The other LFP packs in the market that I have heard about is Felicity product and even though it appears they give false declaration of their pack's capacity (the second point you raised that I'll agree with), I doubt if their (felicity) compromise and inefficiency will border on their product causing a conflagration.

Misuse and users' failure to adhere to manufacturer's specified use in the case of LFP is what may likely lead to any fires, but even then the (electronics) BMS will likely succumb before it gets to that point.

Abdomox:


Please any recommendation on reliable seller of LFP, and price range. Thanks

I may give you my contact, but the guy oftentimes runs out of stock. We still had a small fight two weeks ago when I learnt he has sold out after I'd expressed interest in buying a few days before.

Of course, he sold out because LFP is apparently gaining traction. I was only cross with him because he didn't inform me to quickly buy as he was running low.

So you might wanna keep this in mind.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Indeed in a controlled setting where the KwH energy needs are fixed, given thesame nominal voltage and a target 50% DoD for Lead Acid (you will replace the bank every 2 to 4 years) and 80% DoD for Lithium.

125Ah Lithium at 80% DoD will give about thesame energy as 200Ah lead acid at 50% DoD.

For sure the lifespan of the lead acid battery will be much shorter in this scenario than it's Lithium equivalent. This is just one of the many tradeoffs that must be made.

In most systems 100% DoD is not feasible unless the battery capacity was understated ab initio

@bolded
What about LTO that claims 100% DoD without significant negative impact on cycle life?

I think one of us here uses LTO. Dapsyra, I think. He does not come online here much. Him feeding peeps his experience too will not be bad.

ceaser:


He probably uses a PWM CC to charge it. The float voltage setting may not be up to the value required to give the battery a full 100% charge whereas the AC charger gets the battery to full.

Again he needs to be sure of the voltmeter he reckons with if it is programmed for use with Lithium. Lead acid 100% charge is a little different from LFP 100% charge.

Edited: Seen that he uses a PWM. @Funshyboi, maybe you should refer to the controller's manual for going about the settings.

How even is your panel insolation? Shading? Orientation? Not to forget that the monsoon is still upon us, hence harvest from panels will still be in the troughs and except the panels are well oversized to cater to insolation downtimes, you can only expect increased yield during the dry months.

How do you suggest I increase The float voltage setting to be up to the value required to give the battery a full 100% Is it from the CControler. Because I noticed I’m just pressing the 3 buttons on the controller and Nothing is changing. Help your boy pls, he’s just an hobbyists

Oh nice. I just couldn't be bothered with getting premium cards abeg, where the money sef?. I have 3 Pi units and just want to avoid replacing cards every other week.

NiyiOmoIyunade:
Remember I have a fairly decent coding background, the scripts will not run a second iteration until the first one is done so 6 iterations may run in 55 seconds or 1 minute 10 seconds - the goal is to pound the system but keep my dashboard data always live (10 secs or less refresh rate).

The real issue is how the OS handles memory, may not cleanly release memory after program terminates and therefore make the system appear short on resources. For a long time, I thought the limiting factor was processor but my deep dive under the hood revealed memory and memory management to be the real issue (was logging system stats every 5 mins and parsing the outputs)

I see you are using a Pi4 with 4 times the RAM I have so that explains the stability you have .

Because I use a premium EVO SD card, I have no fear of frequent reboots - in any case the scripts I have *sync* the system before performing a reboot so all files and logs are safely written to disc first.

I see the battery chemistry wars are on again.

Each man to his own tent please. Yes, we're trying to get newbies informed and provide guidance where possible. Inevitably, we're colouring our perspectives with our experiences. The truth in the matter is, applications are client specific, even amongst the varied lithium types. I have LFP, lead-carbon FLA and VRLA. In times past, I've used Li-Ion (I didn't like the experience) but it's about knowledge. There were times constraints forced a particular type. Even now, I have multiple arrays feeding multiple banks for multiple levels of redundancy - two of them fully automated for some years now with almost no tinkering (security lights CCTV) asides upgrades.

Check your pocket. Check your unique needs. Investigate what might work for you. Do appropriate research. Give it your all. Have no regrets. Upgrade/swap as needed and as affordable.

There's always a bigger dog in the adjoining yard. A properly planned journey is oftentimes fun. Experience the world of RE within your limits. Or be full of lamentations.

Edit: I love my LFPs; I really do. They've survived the worst. I left them idling without charge for almost 2 years yet met them fully functional. Li-Ion tends to somehow go bad if you abandon them after a full charge. You can't try that stuff with lead acid for 3 months, full charge or not. 6 months and they're literally bricks.

I've boiled an FLA bank daily for almost 2 weeks, which revived the dying cells (desulphators were coupled in). Overcharging Lithium once or deep discharging them once is sufficient to ruin your bank permanently. Some cells simply won't recover. Same goes for VRLA.

Once again, as evidenced by Dapsyra, GeorgeD1 and NiyiOmoIyunade and I, what works ... works, so long as it's tailored to your needs.

Abdomox:


Please any recommendation on reliable seller of LFP, and price range. Thanks

You can reach the guy that coupled my first 200AH LFP, check my previous posts for his contact. He sells the 200AH 24v (25.6v norminal) at 500k now.

Meanwhile you can ask him to use a BMS with user management interface (he now does that), it will take your cost up by a few amount but it's better to be able to see how each of your cells is performing. It helps for troubleshooting.

funshyboi:


Attached is the picture
Up on the roof I have a 160 and 80watts panels connected in parallel and the battery is 40 amps (480watts)

Hello, I guess we've had a private chat few days ago .. I don't basically know the loads?
The make , origin & picture of your battery ?
Solar to pwm & pwm to battery guage ?
Are your mismatched panels brand new or refurbished? What're individual panel voltages on your DC meter ?

ceaser:


I may give you my contact, but the guy oftentimes runs out of stock. We still had a small fight two weeks ago when I learnt he has sold out after I'd expressed interest in buying a few days before.

Of course, he sold out because LFP is apparently gaining traction. I was only cross with him because he didn't inform me to quickly buy as he was running low.

So you might wanna keep this in mind.

Please help with his contact. Thanks