Abovebonny:
Oxford definition of "empire": a group of countries or states that are controlled by one ruler or government e.g. the Roman Empire.

Considering Benin's borders never extended beyond the Niger River, let alone outside of Nigeria's boarders, means that it does not qualify for empire status.

The Benin Kingdom was just that, a kingdom.

The map I've provided shows just how small Benin was, comparable in size and influence to the Nri kingdom.

Look at Mali, Songhai, Ghana & Akan these can be classified as empires as they fit the definition perfectly.

I still think The Benin Kingdom was a formidable and rich culture with deep spiritual and militaristic traditions, but they weren't an expansionist enterprise like the other larger west African empires.

Even Oyo, the largest Yoruba kingdom was far greater territorially than Benin.

Please stop overstating history because you have a bias towards a particular topic.

Was oyo really an empire

Babatundey
Balogunodua
Olu317
Obalufon

babtoundey:



This one has started with his provide 1300 written evidence that the world existed.
The same thing he tried on the formal threads that Tao kicked him hard in the head is what he is trying here.

You think we are fools when all you will end up saying is "Benin is Sha great, Benin has Sha recorded many achievements, Benin Sha get plenty juju"

Nobody has time for roborebe. if you believe nothing proves the Benin-Ife relationship, prove it. We have seen the video of your Oba admitting Oranmiyan came from Ife to rule Benin. start by proving that wrong and stop the child play of "provide 11000 written account that a father was once a child"

my problem with you Yoruba's is that you look half message

undeniable the oba said oronmiyan came from ife but you people have refuse finish what he says about oduduwa because that doesn't suit you.

the true story of oduduwa being an individual that sought refuge in ife is with the Olugbo of ugbo land



dont come here to give half scripted page please

Etrusen:
yoruba man from ife by coming from the sky and landing in ife ?

Oh, now you see! But this time you seem to be seeing more than what is actually written. Lol.

Anyways, yes he is a Yoruba man from Ife in the same sense as you are an Edo man from Benin.

Benin mythology claims that Ogiso Igodo sky-dived into Benin city.

Do you agree that Igodo did this is in a literal historical sense?

Or do you think this is just a mythological narrative to glamorize his personality ??

give me a yoruba account that says oduduwa was born and raised in ife

How did I miss this earlier?

Anyways, I have addressed this in a subsequent comment. Refer to the link below for the comment:

https://www.nairaland.com/6291440/benin-remain-center-west-africa/4#96807302

gregyboy:





Was oyo really an empire

Babatundey
Balogunodua
Olu317
Obalufon

pls bro

assist me with the link for the book

Etrusen:
••• the true story of oduduwa being an individual that sought refuge in ife is with the Olugbo of ugbo land

You mean just as the true story of Eweka is with Ogiamien ?? Wonderful!

The difference however between the two, is that Olugbo’s claim doesn’t align with present realities — his kingdom is in far away Ilaje.

But the Ogiamie’s claim, on the other hand, aligns with present realities as his seat of authority (though limited) is firmly rooted till date with Benin kingdom.

So, his account seem to me to have more weight on a relative note.

cc: Babtoundey

Etinosa12345:



pls bro

assist me with the link for the book

https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/180445.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3Ac39e4966e47d057e94d17c9941194586

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/180445&ved=2ahUKEwif8c3qvLrtAhVC4OAKHRvtD2AQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0ZvqIBtL3sSVyWfde-eH8y&cshid=1607296219576

gregyboy:





Was oyo really an empire

Babatundey
Balogunodua
Olu317
Obalufon

my brother we are din with that


Oyo was no where close to Benin because Oyo never fought a war against another tribe the only one they fought was against the Fulani and they were bitten black and blue

Benin empiristic period started before Oyo but Oyo ended before Benin

there has never being anything in history called Yoruba kingdom rather what we have is Oyo , ijesha land osogbo land etc

the Yoruba's are nothing different from the igbos also with owerri land , olu etc just name it


but in the case of benin, it controls everything with one central power just like roman empire


if there. is any kingdom fit for empire in Nigeria, its Benin

gregyboy:


https://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/180445.pdf?refreqid=excelsior%3Ac39e4966e47d057e94d17c9941194586

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.jstor.org/stable/180445&ved=2ahUKEwif8c3qvLrtAhVC4OAKHRvtD2AQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0ZvqIBtL3sSVyWfde-eH8y&cshid=1607296219576

its showing me just one page

do u have the pdf

lemme pm u?

Etrusen:
my brother we are din with that


Oyo was no where close to Benin because Oyo never fought a war against another tribe the only one they fought was against the Fulani and they were bitten black and blue

Benin empiristic period started before Oyo but Oyo ended before Benin

there has never being anything in history called Yoruba kingdom rather what we have is Oyo , ijesha land osogbo land etc

the Yoruba's are nothing different from the igbos also with owerri land , olu etc just name it


but in the case of benin, it controls everything with one central power just like roman empire


if there. is any kingdom fit for empire in Nigeria, its Benin

Lol. You’re in public space. Reserve your your embarrassing ignorance for another day.

Now, go read a book!

You may start with the writings of Archibald Dalzel — a French slave trader who lived in Dahomey in the 1700s.

The book is entitled “The History of Dahomey”. Oyo’s imperial domination of Dahomey and other kingdoms in the region fills up the book almost literally.

You must kill your ignorance.

Etrusen:



my problem with you Yoruba's is that you look half message

undeniable the oba said oronmiyan came from ife but you people have refuse finish what he says about oduduwa because that doesn't suit you.

the true story of oduduwa being an individual that sought refuge in ife is with the Olugbo of ugbo land



dont come here to give half scripted page please

You're putting yourself into myth bro, you would endup soiling the thread with myth
You guys should stick to empire debate


TAO11 would mess you up if you debate her on this myth

Are you aware oba eweka11 agreed in 1914 to have been an oduduwa son and he paid homage to ooni and alafin

She will mess you up

Etinosa12345:

its showing me just one page

do u have the pdf

lemme pm u?

This

TAO11:
Oh, now you see! But this time you seem to be seeing more than what is actually written. Lol.

———————

Anyways, Yes he is a Yoruba man from Ife in the same sense as you are an Edo man from Benin.

Benin mythology claims that Ogiso Igodo skydived into Benin city.

Do you agree that Igodo did this is in a literal historical sense?

Or do you think this is just a mythological narrative to glamorize his personality ??

the Benin palace have never denied oronmiyan coming to Benin but they we always tell you that the oronmiyan in question is a grandson to their exiled prince and even the olugbo confirm it that oduduwa at first came to sought refuge

so what again explain that

maybe you claim again that oduduwa was an ife man

I still dey laugh you


madam read this about ogiamien claim





https://www.nairaland.com/6291503/evidences-shows-ogiamien-claim-original

gregyboy:


This

i dont have an account there na

asking me for institutional email

Etrusen:
the Benin palace have never denied oronmiyan coming to Benin but they we always tell you that the oronmiyan in question is a grandson to their exiled prince

And that particular fraud (bolded) has been debunked again and again by historical scholarship.

and even the olugbo confirm it that oduduwa at first came to sought refuge

Olugbo?? You mean the Ilaje king who claimed he owns Ife?? Amazing! He must be right.

so what again explain that. maybe you claim again that oduduwa was an ife man. I still dey laugh you .madam read this about ogiamien claim
https://www.nairaland.com/6291503/evidences-shows-ogiamien-claim-original

Amazing, we must reject the claim of the Ogiamie whose seat is within Benin till date; but accept a certain Olugbo whose seat is in far away Ilaje. Wonderful!

Like I said earlier, to know about the traditions of the British monarchy — you must begin seeking such information from the Bristish Royal family, except on matters where contemporary historical scholarship debunks them.

How is this rocket science for you to grasp?

Cc: babtoundey

TAO11:
Oh, now you see! But this time you seem to be seeing more than what is actually written. Lol.

———————

Anyways, Yes he is a Yoruba man from Ife in the same sense as you are an Edo man from Benin.

Benin mythology claims that Ogiso Igodo skydived into Benin city.

Do you agree that Igodo did this is in a literal historical sense?

Or do you think this is just a mythological narrative to glamorize his personality ??

myth is always done to create fear

talking about igodo

before igodo the ancestral leader of the binis was Idu he was not made king after his death that was where igodo took over

that is why the ancestral shrine of the oba of Benin is erhinmwin_ Idu ( spirit of Idu )

this shrine is handled by the isekhure of Benin



we are not talking about igodo our focus is oduduwa which has always cause problem in history


if you want to talk about igodo you are free but that is after we are done with oduduwa

ogiamen has a seat in benin so what?

what are we now going to say abt oliha

TAO11:
Lol. You’re in public space. Reserve your your embarrassing ignorance for another day.

Now, go read a book!

You may start with the writings of Archibald Dalzel — a French slave trade who lived in Dahomey in the 1700s.

The book is entitled “The History of Dahomey”. Oyo’s imperial domination of Dahomey and other kingdoms in the region fills up the book almost literally.

You must kill your ignorance.

madam parts of Dahomey are original Yoruba settlers beyond the Dahomey areas the Yoruba's are once that suffered slavery at the hands binis

or are you going to tell me that the Yoruba's in Brazil and other places were originally there?


this your Oyo fight against Dahomey were the reason I said Oyo never fought another tribe


or you want to remind me of what happen against the Fulani and Oyo ?

Etrusen:
myth is always done to create fear

talking about igodo

before igodo the ancestral leader of the binis was Idu he was not made king after his death that was where igodo took over

that is why the ancestral shrine of the oba of Benin is erhinmwin_ Idu ( spirit of Idu )

this shrine is handled by the isekhure of Benin

we are not talking about igodo our focus is oduduwa which has always cause problem in history


if you want to talk about igodo you are free but that is after we are done with oduduwa

Interesting!

So, after all said and done — the summary of your super-story is that:

Igodo did not really drop from heaven despite the Benin mythological account that says so.
[I already knew he didn’t. I simply brought it up to kill your hypocrisy, deceit and double standards].

Now, on the other hand, do you still insist that Oduduwa really dropped from heaven despite this being a mythological narrative — and despite the Ife account that he is an indigenous human being??

Do you still insist? Would you still be a hypocrite or a normal human? Let’s find out.

TAO11:
The statement attributed to a certain Alaafin along the lines that Oyo-Ile paid tributes (during some reign before his) to Benin is at best a misrepresentation by the reporter and for the following reason:

(1) There isn’t a single account from the vast corpus of Oyo’s traditional oral literature (as well from its earliest written volume — circa.1700) which may be adduced to remotely substantiate such report.

Yet Oyo traditions admit in clear unequivocal terms that Oyo-Ile, in its early centuries, had to pay tributes to the now defunct kingdom of Owu-Ipole. Owu-Ipole for that matter.

The same Oyo traditions admit in unambiguous terms that Oyo-Ile (in its early centuries) only managed to survive military attacks from the Bariba and the Nupe among other disasters clearly admitted in its traditions.

(2) The demographic nature of the Oyo-Ile kingdom (as a frontier settlement up north amidst Bariba and Nupe frontier settlements) supports and bolsters these statements admitted in its tradition.

However, the same report fails to gel (no matter how far we stretch our imagination) with the respective demographic settings of the Oyo-Ile and Benin kingdoms.

It simply makes zero geographical sense that Benin kingdom (which did not obtain tributes from all the kingdoms lying to its west between itself and Oyo-Ile) somehow managed to do so from distant Oyo-Ile.

(3) There isn’t a single account from the vast corpus of Benin’s traditional oral and written literature which may be adduced to even faintly support such report.

As may be expected, the Benin traditions (written or oral) certainly would not have missed the “golden opportunity” of incorporating such an event of imperial nature into its corpus had it ever occurred even slightly.

(4) Similar examples of such proven misrepresentations may be found in reports from Benin.

One interesting example of this is Roupell’s report of statements supposedly from Benin officials along the lines that Benin knew nothing about bronze casting prior to the Portuguese’s arrival in Africa.

This statement proves to be a misrepresentation (or at least an exaggeration of an actual statement) when the contrary vast and overwhelming indigenous accounts of Benin are considered.

Moreover, scientific dating techniques also place some (at least one that I’m aware of) Benin bronze to a date prior to the Portuguese’s arrival in Africa — thus also proving that this report is a misrepresentation (or at least an exaggeration of an actual received statement.

———————
In the light of the foregoing considerations which outrightly uncovers such reports as an exaggeration (or at least a misrepresentation) by the reporter, what then appears to have been the actual context which is supported by multiple independent reports is as follows:

During the wake of Oyo’s civil crisis (towards the end of its imperialism), Oyo did a number of military outsourcing to swell the size of its army in preparation for decisive engagements against a very large Ilorin army which comprises majorly of Oyo Islamic converts, of Fulanis, and of fugitive former Oyo-owned Hausa slaves.

The traditions of Oyo are extremely clear about such military outsourcings where it speaks of military allies from the Bariba country, as well as a report from Clapperton of some effort to outsource the Benin army for the same purposes.

These outsourcing efforts as may be expected would not have come free of charge on a plater of gold.

In fact, even at the the time of Oyo’s imperial rule, we read in Archibald Dalzel’s “The History of Dahomey, (1793)” that Oyo sometimes pays its allies to punish provincial rebellions on its behalf by military action and economic embargo.

An example of its payments to its “Lagos” ally in order to punish Badegree may be found on page 183 of the above-referenced material.

The King of “Lagos”, acting on behalf of Oyo (having received payments and more promises), prevented the Badagrees from receiving food supply from “Lagos”, while also taking many Badagrees as captives for its own use.

In the light of this background, payment to its allies for military engagement appears clearly to be the only explanation for the proven misrepresentation in this report.

This explanation gels with the fact of Oyo’s civil troubles which was prior to 1911.

This explanation gels with the pre-1911 Clapperton’s report on Oyo’s interest in enlisting its Benin allies among other allies to quell a large provincial rebellion.

This explanation gels with the absolute silence of such statements from the vast corpus of both Benin traditions and Oyo traditions.

Lastly, this explanation gels with the demographic absurdity consequent from the report.

Cheers!

cc: Balogunodua, babtoundey, DenreleDave, SaintBeehot, gomojam, scholes0, nisai, LegendHero, Newton85, macof, barbilius, Alba3, reallest, SaintBeehot

Gregyboy got banned for no reason, they are cowards

I would be replacing gregyboy if you dont see my comment know i got banned too unjustfuly


Etrusen
Etinosa1234
Samuk
Davidnazee

gregyboy:



You're putting yourself into myth bro, you would endup soiling the thread with myth
You guys should stick to empire debate


TAO11 would mess you up if you debate her on this myth

Are you aware oba eweka11 agreed in 1914 to have been an oduduwa son and he paid homage to ooni and alafin

She will mess you up

this are what the Yoruba's capitalize on after 1897


if you want to know about the cruelty of the Yoruba's specifically read about how midwest was form and Akenzua 11 struggle

they thought Benin will be totally weaken after 1897



thats why you see tao11 always posting a picture of the again written yoruba/ awolowo meeting of obas


before 1800 the yorubas can never in history be compare with benin

very Afonjalistic people!!!!

https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.waado.org/nigerdelta/ethnichistories/egharevbalectures/Fifth-Omoigui.htm&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwjw-qWBhLrtAhVQDOwKHVA8A2EQFjAKegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw24UrtoRkICCSaeg3IRA78M

TAO11:
And that particular fraud (bolded) has been debunked again and again by historical scholarship.

Olugbo?? You mean the Ilaje king who claimed he owns Ife??Interesting!

Amazing, we must reject the claim of the Ogiamie whose seat is within Benin till date; but accept a certain Olugbo whose seat is in far away Ilaje. Wonderful!

Like I said earlier, to know about the traditions of the British monarchy — you must begin seeking such information from the Bristish Royal family, except on matters where contemporary historical scholarship debunks them.

How is this rocket science for you to grasp?

you nor fit talk where oduduwa come from tao ?


am still waiting

TAO11:
Interesting!

So, after all said and done — the summary of your super-story is that:

Igodo did not really drop from heaven despite the Benin mythological account that says so.
[I already knew he didn’t. I simply brought it up to kill your hypocrisy, deceit and double standards].

Now, on the other hand, do you still insist that Oduduwa really dropped from heaven despite this being a mythological narrative — and despite the Ife account that he is an indigenous human being??

Do you still insist? Would you still be a hypocrite or normal human? Let’s find out.

madam you can never twist story for your gain

all traditional rulers in Yoruba land agreed that oduduwa was never an ife man and that he can from some where


so am asking you where he came from

you still dey say na ife man


I wonder oo

Etrusen:
madam parts of Dahomey are original Yoruba settlers

No!

beyond the Dahomey areas the Yoruba's are once that suffered slavery at the hands binis

No!

or are you going to tell me that the Yoruba's in Brazil and other places were originally there?

No!

this your Oyo fight against Dahomey were the reason I said Oyo never fought another tribe

Don’t be scared to kill your ignorance. Read a book!

or you want to remind me of what happen against the Fulani and Oyo ?

Yes, I will.

There was rebellion within Oyo rank and files. The rebels fled to Ilorin where they were granted freedom by the Yoruba secessionist leader.

The rebels converted to the Islamic faith and pledged allegiance to a Fulani preacher.

A combined army of Oyo rebels, Ilorin residents, Fulani preachers, and fugitive Hausa slaves from Oyo marched out in a series of battles (attacking and) defending their newly found faith and community against the shrunk Oyo army.

In a similar vein, Benin also had its civil crises which similarly grounded the capital, caused Benin to be deserted and reduced to a mere village. [I have cited the reference for this earlier on].

Like I said: Read a book. History is not to be imagined.

Cc: Balogunodua, babtoundey, DenreleDave, SaintBeehot, gomojam, scholes0, nisai, LegendHero, Newton85, macof, barbilius, Alba3, reallest, SaintBeehot

Edeyoung:


Gregyboy got banned for no reason cowards

I would be replacing gregyboy if you dont see my comment know i got banned too unjustfuly


Etrusen
Etinosa1234
Samuk
Davidnazee

OK bro

Etrusen:
you nor fit talk where oduduwa come from tao ?
am still waiting

Lol!

Since I already said it, then the ball is in your court to read the comment again — but this time around with your eyes open.

Etrusen:
madam you can never twist story for your gain

all traditional rulers in Yoruba land agreed that oduduwa was never an ife man and that he can from some where

so am asking you where he came from

you still dey say na ife man

I wonder oo

Interesting! All traditional rulers said that?? Wow!

Oh, except the traditional rulers of the actual kingdom where Oduduwa himself reigned.

—————————
Let’s try something similar for Benin and see how it goes:

All aboriginal families/institutions within Benin (who are independent of the present dynasty) insist that the present dynasty of Benin is of foreign origin from Ife.

How does that sound? Well, it actually sounds more legit than the one above.

TAO11:
No!

No!

No!

Don’t be scared to kill your ignorance. Read a book.

Yes, I will.

There was rebellion within Oyo rank and files. The rebels fled to Ilorin where they were granted freedom by the Yoruba secessionist leader.

The rebels converted to the Islamic faith and pledged allegiance to a Fulani preacher. The combined army of Oyo rebels, Ilorin residents, Fulani preachers, and fugitive Hausa slaves from Oyo marched out in a series of battles defending their newly found faith against the shrunk Oyo army.

Similarly, Benin also had its civil crises which similarly grounded the capital, caused Benin to be deserted, and reduced to a mere village. [I have cited the reference for this earlier on].

Like I said: Read a book. History is not to be imagined.

did the benin civil war stop Benin from being independent until 1897 ? the answer is NO


how come your claimed mighty oyo was destroy

Etrusen:
did the benin civil war stop Benin from being independent until 1897 ? the answer is NO

how come your claimed mighty oyo was destroy

Lol. None of the two civil wars stopped either of them from being independent.

Their respective independence only stopped with British take over.

Stop hoping to learn history through Nairaland comments. Be bold enough to face your ignorance and kill it.

Go read a book!

TAO11:
Interesting! All traditional rulers said that?? Wow!

Oh, except the traditional rulers of the actual kingdom where Oduduwa reigned.

—————————
Let’s try something similar for Benin and we see how it goes:

All aboriginal families/institutions in Benin (who are independent of the present dynasty) insist that the present dynasty of Benin is of foreign origin from Ife.

How does that sound? Well, it actually sounds more legit than the one above.

OK madam give an account of the ife people saying he was an ifeman


we are not done with oduduwa because you have not proven oduduwa was an ife man

but benin history being on the east of ife always give you how he came to be but you people are always carried by population problem ( although lots claim they have nothing to do with oduduwa )

Benin is oduduwas origin no matter how you deny it because Benin is even more older than ife and is on the east wing of ife , these are my two reserve reasons

please tell me again how did oduduwa come to be ?

am waiting

Oyo fell far before the british takeover

TAO11:
Lol. None of the two civil wars stopped either of them from being independent.

Their respective independence only stopped with British take over.

Stop hoping to learn history through Nairaland comments. Be bold enough to face your ignorance and kill it.

Go read a book!

i really think you are proud and you are been driven by Afonjing likers and sharers

simple question



when did oyo fall?



i wan go sleep I will reply your answer at dawn


please solve the assignment above