Aketi2:


Was Allah known to the Arabs? Or was he introduced to the Arabs by Mohammad?

The reason for this question is that the tribe from which Mohammad came out appears to have knowledge of a god called LLah. This is evidence in the attachment of the name of the god LLAH to their names e.g Abdullah.

If this was the case, how can we say he is the one true god given the fact that LLAH is generally identified as the moon god?

Allah has always being there from the beginning.
It was the worship of Allah that was corrupted and replaced with all sorts of idols and objects. This was basically what the prophet came to correct.

Aketi2:


I believe that due to differences in description of the God of the Christianity and Islam, the God of the Christians is different from the God of the Muslims.

Muslims too believe the same.

shadeyinka:

Are you saying that you also worship Yahweh?

Those are the descriptions of Allah.

If Yahweh fits into those descriptions, then Yahweh could be another title for Allah.

shadeyinka:

But God is also a Title. God is not a name.

The Sango and Ogun worshippers ( African traditional religion) believe that God (Olorun) created the world.


Are you saying that Allah and the God of the Sango worshippers are the same? Is there any distinction between the two Gods?

I am not saying so.
I have given the descriptions of Allah by the qur'an and that is how i understand Allah. You should tell me who Yahweh other than being the name of God, sango or ogun is, then i can understand them.

I think you are just playing with words on the issue of name and title of the supreme being.

Maybe, there is no point continuing.

mhmsadyq:


Those are the descriptions of Allah.

If Yahweh fits into those descriptions, then Yahweh could be another title for Allah.

Taqqiya means deception!

You can't say the affirmative that you worship Yahweh because you don't know any Yahweh, you only know Allah!

This means that even though Allah was given almost attributes of Yahweh, they are not the same person.

mhmsadyq:


I am not saying so.
I have given the descriptions of Allah by the qur'an and that is how i understand Allah. You should tell me who Yahweh other than being the name of God, sango or ogun is, then i can understand them.

I think you are just playing with words on the issue of name and title of the supreme being.

Maybe, there is no point continuing.

I play not with words o!

Yahweh has made a promise to love Israel forever
1Kin 10:9:
"Blessed be the LORD your God, which delighted in you, to set you on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he you king, to do judgment and justice."

Unfortunately, Allah has sought to destroy Israel.
al-Bukhari (3166).
the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him – except the gharqad (a kind of thorny tree).’


Would you truely agree that Allah and Yahweh are exactly the same Personality?

If the God of the Jews is the God of the Muslims, why do Muslims hate the Jews with a passion?

shadeyinka:

Taqqiya means deception!

You can't say the affirmative that you worship Yahweh because you don't know any Yahweh, you only know Allah!

This means that even though Allah was given almost attributes of Yahweh, they are not the same person.


I play not with words o!

Yahweh has made a promise to love Israel forever
1Kin 10:9:
"Blessed be the LORD your God, which delighted in you, to set you on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he you king, to do judgment and justice."

Unfortunately, Allah has sought to destroy Israel.
al-Bukhari (3166).
the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him – except the gharqad (a kind of thorny tree).’


Would you truely agree that Allah and Yahweh are exactly the same Personality?

If the God of the Jews is the God of the Muslims, why do Muslims hate the Jews with a passion?

If only you knew the evil the Jews have wrought. Abi you think say those Americans who hate them with passion do so for hating sake.

mhmsadyq:


Muslims too believe the same.

Muslims generally believe and sometimes forcefully assert that both Christians and Muslims are serving the same God. They even call Islam, Abrahamic faith.

How are you my friend!

aadoiza:

If only you knew the evil the Jews have wrought. Abi you think say those Americans who hate them with passion do so for hating sake.

Are all Jews evil?
Certainly not BUT it seems the hatred of Muslims and Allah is total for Israel. Yahweh promised the Prophet David to love Israel and establish them forever .

2Chr 9:8:
"Blessed be the LORD your God, which delighted in you to set you on his throne, to be king for the LORD your God: because your God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he you king over them, to do judgment and justice."


Yahweh promised that Israel would be saved.

Isa 45:17:
"But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."

Rom 11:26:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

The scripture above shows what will happen when Jesus Christ comes back again. All Israel is to be saved: this is the promise of Yahweh!

Contrast with:
al-Bukhari (3166).
the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him – except the gharqad (a kind of thorny tree).’

Do you know that one of the duties of the Islamic "Jesus/Isa" after killing the Dadjjal is to kill the "pigs": (the Jews)

It is strange that Allah wants the exact opposite for Israel: to slaughter them all.

Would one still say that Allah and Yahweh are the same?

shadeyinka:

Taqqiya means deception!

You can't say the affirmative that you worship Yahweh because you don't know any Yahweh, you only know Allah!

This means that even though Allah was given almost attributes of Yahweh, they are not the same person.


I play not with words o!

Yahweh has made a promise to love Israel forever
1Kin 10:9:
"Blessed be the LORD your God, which delighted in you, to set you on the throne of Israel: because the LORD loved Israel for ever, therefore made he you king, to do judgment and justice."

Unfortunately, Allah has sought to destroy Israel.
al-Bukhari (3166).
the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him – except the gharqad (a kind of thorny tree).’


Would you truely agree that Allah and Yahweh are exactly the same Personality?

If the God of the Jews is the God of the Muslims, why do Muslims hate the Jews with a passion?

You could have opened a thread for this.

Saying Yahweh is a different God from Allah isn't a big deal. After all the beliefs are different.

The Qur'an also says:

[109:1] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"قُلۡ یٰۤاَیُّہَا الۡکٰفِرُوۡنَ ۙ﴿۱﴾

Say: ‘O disbelievers!

[109:2] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"لَاۤ اَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُوۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾

I do not worship that which you worship.

[109:3] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"وَ لَاۤ اَنۡتُمۡ عٰبِدُوۡنَ مَاۤ اَعۡبُدُ ۚ﴿۳﴾

Nor do you worship Whom I worship.

[109:4] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"وَ لَاۤ اَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدۡتُّمۡ ۙ﴿۴﴾

And I shall never worship that which you worship.

[109:5] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"وَ لَاۤ اَنۡتُمۡ عٰبِدُوۡنَ مَاۤ اَعۡبُدُ ؕ﴿۵﴾

Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

[109:6] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"لَکُمۡ دِیۡنُکُمۡ وَلِیَ دِیۡنِ ٪﴿۶﴾

(So) you have your din (religion), and I have my Din (Religion).’


But Allah, the Lord of the world is one!

Aketi2:


Muslims generally believe and sometimes forcefully assert that both Christians and Muslims are serving the same God. They even call Islam, Abrahamic faith.

This isn't true.
Islam remains the only Monotheistical religion on the surface of the earth. This is obvious from the Islamic Shahadah.

Judaism and to a very large degree Christianity are more of Polytheist. At best Christianity can be said to be a monothelete.

But for the fact that Islam believes in a common origin for all three religions, we today see Jews and Christians as misguided Monotheists.

So it depends from where we are looking at it.

mhmsadyq:

But for the fact that Islam believes in a common origin for all three religions, we today see Jews and Christians as misguided Monotheists.

Non- any of the three religions will say you are all misguided because you all seem to want to exclusively corner the God, though you all believe the God is the sole creator of all humans, and instead of being perfect in God's image, you create God according to the puny beliefs and images inside your tiny heads.

That's why I like the human teacher Jesus Christ. He not only said, "love your neighbours regardless of their religions, colours, gender or creeds", but "love your enemies even moreso, including those who slap your right cheek to whom you must turn the left cheek to be slapped seven times seventy times too", which if you did try would make your enemies become lovers of you in return, and the world a paradiso instead of wars all over the earth.

But I guess its as a smart person once said, with parenthesis being my addition:

"The Christian (and Judaic and Islam) ideal(s) have not been tried and found wanting. They have been found difficult; and left untried".
G.K. Chesterton

Or is it not true that all three religions insist you love your fellow human being? In fact, must you not read all three texts to properly practise any of them? Yet you all live by the bread alone and think the crappy beliefs inside your puny heads are what would matter to a Supreme God when what really matters is that you seek to understand how to Godly treat one another.

Pity, is what I say to you all. Pity. And I can not wait for the day the Holy Book of Nigeria becomes the Trinity of the Torah, NewTestament and the Quran. Perhaps then will we stop being malnourished from eating only bread and become the mighty nation that the Lord God has planned for us to become.

budaatum:


Non- any of the three religions will say you are all misguided because you all seem to want to exclusively corner the God, though you all believe the God is the sole creator of all humans, and instead of being perfect in God's image, you create God according to the puny beliefs and images inside your tiny heads.

That's why I like the human teacher Jesus Christ. He not only said, "love your neighbours regardless of their religions, colours, gender or creeds", but "love your enemies even moreso, including those who slap your right cheek to whom you must turn the left cheek to be slapped seven times seventy times too", which if you did try would make your enemies become lovers of you in return, and the world a paradiso instead of wars all over the earth.

But I guess its as a smart person once said, with parenthesis being my addition:

"The Christian (and Judaic and Islam) ideal(s) have not been tried and found wanting. They have been found difficult; and left untried". G.K. Chesterton

Or is it not true that all three religions insist you love your fellow human being? In fact, must you not read all three texts to properly practise any of them? Yet you all live by the bread alone and think the crappy beliefs inside your puny heads are what would matter to a Supreme God when what really matters is that you seek to understand how to Godly treat one another.

Pity, is what I say to you all. Pity. And I can not wait for the day the Holy Book of Nigeria becomes the Trinity of the Torah, NewTestament and the Quran. Perhaps then will we stop being malnourished from eating only bread and become the mighty nation that the Lord God has planned for us to become.

Good Philosophy.

mhmsadyq:


Good Philosophy.

It is the Philosophy of the Torah and the Bible and the Quran.

Unfortunately, stupid humans that we are, believe, which divides us, rather than seek to understand, which is what unites us and shall make us not hurt nor destroy in the holy mountain

But with time, the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.

Insha Allah Amen.

mhmsadyq:


You could have opened a thread for this.

Saying Yahweh is a different God from Allah isn't a big deal. After all the beliefs are different.

The Qur'an also says:

[109:1] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"قُلۡ یٰۤاَیُّہَا الۡکٰفِرُوۡنَ ۙ﴿۱﴾

Say: ‘O disbelievers!

[109:2] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"لَاۤ اَعۡبُدُ مَا تَعۡبُدُوۡنَ ۙ﴿۲﴾

I do not worship that which you worship.

[109:3] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"وَ لَاۤ اَنۡتُمۡ عٰبِدُوۡنَ مَاۤ اَعۡبُدُ ۚ﴿۳﴾

Nor do you worship Whom I worship.

[109:4] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"وَ لَاۤ اَنَا عَابِدٌ مَّا عَبَدۡتُّمۡ ۙ﴿۴﴾

And I shall never worship that which you worship.

[109:5] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"وَ لَاۤ اَنۡتُمۡ عٰبِدُوۡنَ مَاۤ اَعۡبُدُ ؕ﴿۵﴾

Nor will you worship Whom I worship.

[109:6] Al-Kāfirūn-الْکَافِرُوْن
"لَکُمۡ دِیۡنُکُمۡ وَلِیَ دِیۡنِ ٪﴿۶﴾

(So) you have your din (religion), and I have my Din (Religion).’


But Allah, the Lord of the world is one!

The Lord of this world is the Prince of this world.
John 12:31:
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

John 14:30: "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me."

John 16:11:
"Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."



I agree with you, the Prince of this world is one.

Note

The earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord.

And not, "everyone shall believe the crap they cook up inside their heads".

shadeyinka:

The Lord of this world is the Prince of this world.
John 12:31:
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

John 14:30: "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me."

John 16:11:
"Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."



I agree with you, the Prince of this world is one.

Another deliberate deflection or nothing relevant from your scripture or both?

mhmsadyq:


Another deliberate deflection or nothing relevant from your scripture or both?

I quoted what was already written 700 years before Islam.

"The Lord/Prince of this world" is a negative term in the bible. It refers to satan himself! Satan became the Lord of this world after tricking Adam and Eve out of their Lordship over this world!

shadeyinka:
How are you my friend!

Are all Jews evil?
Certainly not BUT it seems the hatred of Muslims and Allah is total for Israel. Yahweh promised the Prophet David to love Israel and establish them forever .

2Chr 9:8:
"Blessed be the LORD your God, which delighted in you to set you on his throne, to be king for the LORD your God: because your God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he you king over them, to do judgment and justice."


Yahweh promised that Israel would be saved.

Isa 45:17:
"But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: you shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end."

Rom 11:26:
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"

The scripture above shows what will happen when Jesus Christ comes back again. All Israel is to be saved: this is the promise of Yahweh!

Contrast with:
al-Bukhari (3166).
the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “The Hour will not begin until you fight the Jews, until a Jew will hide behind a rock or a tree, and the rock or tree will say: ‘O Muslim, O slave of Allah, here is a Jew behind me; come and kill him – except the gharqad (a kind of thorny tree).’

Do you know that one of the duties of the Islamic "Jesus/Isa" after killing the Dadjjal is to kill the "pigs": (the Jews)

It is strange that Allah wants the exact opposite for Israel: to slaughter them all.

Would one still say that Allah and Yahweh are the same?

Bros mi I dey alright. Thanks.
The jew have had more than enough time to retrace their steps, but they always falter. These same Jews, after being given all the promises of salvation, still we went ahead to kill Jesus. Six hundred odd years after, they made similar move on the holy prophet of Allah but were humiliated.
Two thousand years after killing the Messiah, their children are boasting on YouTube over what their ancestors did, even calling the Messiah a bastard.

On the jesus coming to kill pigs narration, I have never come across where the pigs were translated to mean the jews.

shadeyinka:

The Lord of this world is the Prince of this world.
John 12:31:
"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out."

John 14:30: "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me."

John 16:11:
"Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."



I agree with you, the Prince of this world is one.

i say this prophecy talks about Muhammad?

Deu 18
14 For these nations whom you shall dispossess listen to soothsayers and diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.

18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Deu 33
1 THIS IS the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the Israelites before his death.

2 He said, The Lord came from Sinai and beamed upon us from Seir; He flashed forth from Mount Paran, from among ten thousands of holy ones, a flaming fire, a law, at His right hand.


Now where is Paran?
Answer: Arabia
Gen 21
17 And God heard the voice of the youth, and the angel of God called to Hagar out of heaven and said to her, What troubles you, Hagar? Fear not, for God has heard the voice of the youth where he is.

21 He dwelt in the Wilderness of Paran; and his mother took a wife for him out of the land of Egypt.

Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael came with a law did Jesus come with any....

Isaiah 42
6 I the Lord have called You for a righteous purpose and in righteousness; I will take You by the hand and will keep You; I will give You for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations [Gentiles],

7 To open the eyes of the blind, to bring out prisoners from the dungeon, and those who sit in darkness from the prison.

8 I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.

11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of the rock [Sela or Petra] sing; let them shout from the tops of the mountains!

16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they know not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known. I will make darkness into light before them and make uneven places into a plain. These things I have determined to do [for them]; and I will not leave them forsaken.

17 They shall be turned back, they shall be utterly put to shame, who trust in graven images, who say to molten images, You are our gods.

19 Who is blind but My servant [Israel]? Or deaf like My messenger whom I send? Who is blind like the one who is at peace with Me [who has been admitted to covenant relationship with Me]? Yes, who is blind like the Lord's servant?

20 You have seen many things, but you do not observe or apprehend their true meaning. His ears are open, but he hears not!


Allah SWT said:

"And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 87)

"That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 88)

"Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood. But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 89)

"Those are the ones whom Allah has guided, so from their guidance take an example. Say, I ask of you for this message no payment. It is not but a reminder for the worlds."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 90)

Before clearing out your misconceptions, let me remind you that contrary to the Qur'an, you Muslims claim that ALL the bible is CORRUPTED and therefore not to be Trusted. But here you are using the same corrupted texts to see how to justify your Mohammed and His Islam. Such misconception is what made even the Qur'an say that the Trinity is God, Jesus and Mary!

haekymbahd:
i say this prophecy talks about Muhammad?

Deu 18
14 For these nations whom you shall dispossess listen to soothsayers and diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do so.

18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Let me help with understanding from the same Deut 18.

Deu 18:2:
"Therefore shall they have no inheritance among their brothers: the LORD is their inheritance, as he has said to them."

Here the tribe of Levi were given any land among their people Israel!

Deu 18:7:
"Then he shall minister in the name of the LORD his God, as all his brothers the Levites do, which stand there before the LORD."

The Brothers here do not mean Arabian, it means Israel!


Deu 18:15:
"The LORD your God will raise up to you a Prophet from the middle of you, of your brothers, like to me; to him you shall listen;"

This explains Deut18:18-19 clearly. The prophet is from their midst not from Arabia

Now, here is the scripture you quoted.

Deut18:18-19
"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brothers, like to you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whoever will not listen to my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him."

How can this "brother" from the same chapter mean "an Arab"! ?

haekymbahd:

Deu 33
1 THIS IS the blessing with which Moses the man of God blessed the Israelites before his death.

2 He said, The Lord came from Sinai and beamed upon us from Seir; He flashed forth from Mount Paran, from among ten thousands of holy ones, a flaming fire, a law, at His right hand.

Now where is Paran?

It is you who need to know the history of Ismael. I know where Paran is!
The answer to these three questions will set you free:
1. Who came from Paran?
2. Is Mohammed the Lord?
3. Who are "these Holy ones"?

The Prophecy above is about the Messiah and His Holy ones are the Angels!

haekymbahd:

Isaiah 42
6 I the Lord have called You for a righteous purpose and in righteousness; I will take You by the hand and will keep You; I will give You for a covenant to the people, for a light to the nations [Gentiles],

7 To open the eyes of the blind, to bring out prisoners from the dungeon, and those who sit in darkness from the prison.

8 I am the Lord; that is My name! And My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images.

9 Behold, the former things have come to pass, and new things I now declare; before they spring forth I tell you of them.

11 Let the wilderness and its cities lift up their voices, the villages that Kedar inhabits. Let the inhabitants of the rock [Sela or Petra] sing; let them shout from the tops of the mountains!

16 And I will bring the blind by a way that they know not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known. I will make darkness into light before them and make uneven places into a plain. These things I have determined to do [for them]; and I will not leave them forsaken.

17 They shall be turned back, they shall be utterly put to shame, who trust in graven images, who say to molten images, You are our gods.

19 Who is blind but My servant [Israel]? Or deaf like My messenger whom I send? Who is blind like the one who is at peace with Me [who has been admitted to covenant relationship with Me]? Yes, who is blind like the Lord's servant?

20 You have seen many things, but you do not observe or apprehend their true meaning. His ears are open, but he hears not!

Even the dumbest Jew know that this prophecy is about the Messiah!

Rev 19:11-14:
"And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he does judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a clothing dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him on white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."


Is Mohammed the Messiah?

It references the fact that the Messiah's dominion is not just for Israel but the whole

Even though Israel is Blind, the promise is for them and not the Arabs.

haekymbahd:

Allah SWT said:

"And [some] among their fathers and their descendants and their brothers - and We chose them and We guided them to a straight path."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 87)

"That is the guidance of Allah by which He guides whomever He wills of His servants. But if they had associated others with Allah, then worthless for them would be whatever they were doing."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 88)

"Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood. But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 89)

"Those are the ones whom Allah has guided, so from their guidance take an example. Say, I ask of you for this message no payment. It is not but a reminder for the worlds."
(QS. Al-An'aam 6: Verse 90)

Your Islamic apologists are prone to lies and misinformation as seen above.

If Allah has chosen to Jews for guidance on a straight path, how come the same Allah seek their utter destruction. Isn't Allah not all knowing again!?

shadeyinka:
Before clearing out your misconceptions, let me remind you that contrary to the Qur'an, you Muslims claim that ALL the bible is CORRUPTED and therefore not to be Trusted.

Not all! And it has definitely been corrupted since it is in no way in its original form it started out as.

The Torah is the result of a long process of editing (or redaction, as it is called by scholars). This means that there is no one date that one can be pointed to as the date of composition. Most scholars think that the final major redactions took place after 539 BCE when Cyrus the Great conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
https://member.ancient.eu/Torah/

The books of the Christian Bible were arranged in the sequence one finds them in today to tell the story of the creation of the world by a supreme deity, the fall of man from paradise, and humanity's redemption by the Son of God but these books were not written in that sequence nor would the original authors of the Old Testament works have had that particular story in mind.
https://member.ancient.eu/bible/

..the Hebrew Bible did not begin as a single book; rather, it developed over time through the compilation of many Judean texts. The texts, though, were not always understood as divinely inspired, authoritative, holy texts; the role of Judean texts in religious expression developed between the 6th century BCE and 1st century CE.
https://member.ancient.eu/article/1139/early-judaism/

aadoiza:

Bros mi I dey alright. Thanks.
The jew have had more than enough time to retrace their steps, but they always falter. These same Jews, after being given all the promises of salvation, still we went ahead to kill Jesus. Six hundred odd years after, they made similar move on the holy prophet of Allah but were humiliated.
Two thousand years after killing the Messiah, their children are boasting on YouTube over what their ancestors did, even calling the Messiah a bastard.

Even God know that the Jews are rebellious band hard-hearted yet, He chose them from among the tribes of the world.

Are you saying that God made a mistake for choosing Israel?

About crucifying the Messiah:
It was meant to be
1. Jesus even forgave them for this wickedness
Luk 23:34:
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
2. It would have been counterproductive if the Messiah wasn't killed as prophesied
1Cor 2:7-8:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world to our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
3. The Messiah was the sacrificial LAMB of God
John 1:29:
"The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world."

Without the shedding of Blood, no forgiveness of sin is possible
Heb 9:22:
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

aadoiza:

On the jesus coming to kill pigs narration, I have never come across where the pigs were translated to mean the jews.

Let me give you the Hadith and it's interpretation from an Islamic website
Hadith by Muslim
"By He in whose hands my soul rests, Jesus, the Son of Mary, is to descend amongst you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pig, abolish Jizya and wealth will increase to such an extent that one prostration will be more valuable than the whole world and all that it contains."


Explanation:
Here is a quote from the website:

Maulana Sheikh Yusuf Ludhyanwi has stated that in those days, Dajjal will be the leader of all the Jews. Hazrat I`sa peace and blessings be upon him will first put him to death and then make an end to the Jews. Then he will turn towards the Christians and correct them of their misguided notions which stemmed from the beliefs of trinity, crucifixion and expiation.

http://www.inter-islam.org/Biographies/Hazisa135.html

Here is another view:

Depicting Jews – and sometimes also Zionists – as "the descendants of apes and pigs" is extremely widespread today in public discourse in the Arab and Islamic worlds.

For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."[1]
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/muslim-clerics-jews-are-the-descendants-of-apes-pigs-and-other-animals

Unfortunately, even if we have to look at it in its literal interpretation, there exist some huge problems
1. God created the pigs with their nature not to avoid filth. Was that a mistake in creation that should be wiped out?
2. The pig is not the only "unclean" animal that is eaten. Another is the Rabbit/Hare and the Carmel
Lev 11:4,6,8:
"Nevertheless these shall you not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he chews the cud, but divides not the hoof; he is unclean to you. … And the hare , because he chews the cud, but divides not the hoof; he is unclean to you. …
Of their flesh shall you not eat, and their carcass shall you not touch; they are unclean to you."

Why single out the pig for extermination? What is the offence of the pig?

Peace!

budaatum:


Not all! And it has definitely been corrupted since it is in no way in its original form it started out as.

The Torah is the result of a long process of editing (or redaction, as it is called by scholars). This means that there is no one date that one can be pointed to as the date of composition. Most scholars think that the final major redactions took place after 539 BCE when Cyrus the Great conquered the Neo-Babylonian Empire.
https://member.ancient.eu/Torah/

The books of the Christian Bible were arranged in the sequence one finds them in today to tell the story of the creation of the world by a supreme deity, the fall of man from paradise, and humanity's redemption by the Son of God but these books were not written in that sequence nor would the original authors of the Old Testament works have had that particular story in mind.
https://member.ancient.eu/bible/

If the book of the Jews (the Old Testament) and the Book of the Christians (the Old Testament plus the New Testament) has been corrupted
1. Why do you still need it to validate your Prophet?
2. Did the Jews and the Christians conspire to corrupt their scriptures?
3. Can you give a date (when) to the corruption?
4. Can you give the objective (why) of the corruption?
5. Can you show us what was corrupted?

For one to show that a currency is fake, one need to show
why the counterfeit was made,
what was counterfeited (difference between the real and fake)

How can you tell me that a $100 bill is fake without showing me the original? Does it make any sense to you?

Could it be that you simply want to give "a dog a bad name" to justify drowning it?

shadeyinka:

If the book of the Jews (the Old Testament) and the Book of the Christians (the Old Testament plus the New Testament) has been corrupted
1. Why do you still need it to validate your Prophet?

Which "your prophet"?

shadeyinka:
2. Did the Jews and the Christians conspire to corrupt their scriptures?

In some instances, yes. In some others, no. But that word "corrupt" is a bit too heavy. Edited, is more accurate.

shadeyinka:
3. Can you give a date (when) to the corruption?

Stop being lazy and go read the references. It gives dates for the editing.

shadeyinka:
4. Can you give the objective (why) of the corruption?

Stop being lazy and go read the references. It tells why it was edited.

shadeyinka:
5. Can you show us what was corrupted?

Stop being lazy and go read the references. It gives examples of the editing.

shadeyinka:
How can you tell me that a $100 bill is fake without showing me the original? Does it make any sense to you?

No one is claiming the Bible is fake. And the fact you get rid of the originals does not make it fake. It's good to know it is not the original though, because you can at least go seeking instead of waiting lazily to be shown.

shadeyinka:
Could it be that you simply want to give "a dog a bad name" to justify drowning it?

Could it be that you want to hold on to little you believe, so you cover your eyes so you may not see and know?

Hello Buda,
Would you believe I didn't see that it was you until after your response. My response was for "the muslim" according to their own beliefs

budaatum:

Which "your prophet"?

Not for you please.
My response was for "the muslim" according to their own beliefs

budaatum:

In some instances, yes. In some others, no. But that word "corrupt" is a bit too heavy. Edited, is more accurate.

I agree the word corrupted is too heavy unfortunately, this is what the modern Muslim narrative want to project.
At the time when Islam was at its infancy, Allah asked Muslims to refer to the people of the book to confirm that Mohammed was speaking the truth!
If the bible was already corrupted (at the time of Mohammed), why would Allah refer Moslems to it?

Mohammed himself judged from the "book of the Jews": there was a hadith that reported that a Jewish woman was caught in adultery and the Jews brought the woman to Mohammed for Judgement and Mohammed said: "What is written in the Taurat" and a Jew read the portion while covering the part on "stoning". Another Jew opposed this and read the part on "stoning" so that the judgement of stonning was passed on the woman.

Mohammed never once suggested nor insinuated that the scriptures before the quaran has been corrupted. It is the modern muslims on seeing lots of contradictions that came up with that view.

budaatum:

Stop being lazy and go read the references. It gives dates for the editing.
Stop being lazy and go read the references. It tells why it was edited.
Stop being lazy and go read the references. It gives examples of the editing.

Muslims who claim corruption should show the "why" and the "how" and should expain if the when was before Islam or after Islam was established.

budaatum:

No one is claiming the Bible is fake. And the fact you get rid of the originals does not make it fake. It's good to know it is not the original though, because you can at least go seeking instead of waiting lazily to be shown.
Could it be that you want to hold on to little you believe, so you cover your eyes so you may not see and know?

Like I said, the post refer to those who label the bible as corrupted!
The accusers should prove their claim as it affects Islam!

Can we understand every difference between the bible and the Quran as a corruption of the Bible?

Examples:
1. Jesus was neither crucified nor killed in the Quran
2. Mary the Mother of Jesus was confused with Miriam the sister of Aaron
3. Trinity in the Quran is God, Mary and Jesus
4. Joseph requested his master to put him inside the prison according to the Quran

For the Muslims, all these and many more are explainable from the fact that the Bible is CORRUPTED!

haekymbahd:

i say this prophecy talks about Muhammad?

This is a LIE, the Arabs are dubious people using you as a dummy. According to the story Abraham had 8 sons one from Haggar, one from Sarah and six from Keturah. God emphatically told Abraham "i have heard your supplications over Ishmael, he will also grow up and become great but my covenant will be established with Isaac the son Sarah will bear for you" {Genesis 17:18-21} and before then when Haggar was pregnant the angel of God told her "your child will become a trouble maker, using swords against everyone and everyone will also raise swords against him" {Genesis 16:11-12}

So it's clear that Ishmael and Isaac had different destinies which is never the same!

18 I will raise up for them a prophet (Prophet) from among their brethren like you, and will put My words in his mouth; and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

The Israelites and Arabians never see one another as BROTHERS so that prophesy can't be for Muhammad. Again Moses was both God and Prophet simultaneously {Exodus 7:1} just as Jesus was both God and Prophet that's why Peter said the prophecy was about Jesus of Nazareth! Act 3:22-24 ; Deuteronomy 18:15-18

Muhammad a descendant of Ishmael came with a law did Jesus come with any....

Jesus surely came with laws that's what is called the law of Christ {Galatians 6:2} unlike Moses whose laws were written on stone tablets Jesus' laws were written on the heart of his followers {Jeremiah 31:33} so the laws Jesus brought will not be forced on people rather they will embrace it not out of fear or grudgingly but with LOVE for God and make it their own principles. 1Thessalonians 4:11

That's why there is no PEACE among Arabs because the laws Muhammad gave them must be enforced with swords!

shadeyinka:

Even



Let me give you the Hadith and it's interpretation from an Islamic website
Hadith by Muslim
"By He in whose hands my soul rests, Jesus, the Son of Mary, is to descend amongst you as a just ruler. He will break the cross, kill the pig, abolish Jizya and wealth will increase to such an extent that one prostration will be more valuable than the whole world and all that it contains."


Explanation:
Here is a quote from the website:

http://www.inter-islam.org/Biographies/Hazisa135.html

Here is another view:

Depicting Jews – and sometimes also Zionists – as "the descendants of apes and pigs" is extremely widespread today in public discourse in the Arab and Islamic worlds.

For example, in a weekly sermon in April 2002, Al-Azhar Sheikh Muhammad Sayyid Tantawi, the highest-ranking cleric in the Sunni Muslim world, called the Jews "the enemies of Allah, descendants of apes and pigs."[1]
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/muslim-clerics-jews-are-the-descendants-of-apes-pigs-and-other-animals

Unfortunately, even if we have to look at it in its literal interpretation, there exist some huge problems
1. God created the pigs with their nature not to avoid filth. Was that a mistake in creation that should be wiped out?
2. The pig is not the only "unclean" animal that is eaten. Another is the Rabbit/Hare and the Carmel
Lev 11:4,6,8:
"Nevertheless these shall you not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the hoof: as the camel, because he chews the cud, but divides not the hoof; he is unclean to you. … And the hare , because he chews the cud, but divides not the hoof; he is unclean to you. …
Of their flesh shall you not eat, and their carcass shall you not touch; they are unclean to you."

Why single out the pig for extermination? What is the offence of the pig?

Peace!

Yes Muslims hate the Jews, but your claiming that the "pigs" in that hadith narration is a lie—and certainly one of the numerous concoctions in all these books of ahadith. Even this particular narration, without the false interpretation, is still very much debatable in some quarters. I remember Mundir Markaz in Agege, Lagos, condemning the Hadith a few years back. He also cited some of your points as to why the hadith should not taken seriously.

I don't give a hoot about some bloody Sunni clerics, or their proclamations. I'm on my own, so I dont follow any stupid sect nor do I imbibe the ways of the contraption called the Muslim world. You'd be making a valid argument if you show me where Allah SWT called the Jews pigs in the holy Qur'an or his prophet SAW referred to them as such.

God know that the Jews are rebellious band hard-hearted yet, He chose them from among the tribes of the world.

About crucifying the Messiah:
It was meant to be
1. Jesus even forgave them for this wickedness
Luk 23:34:
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."
2. It would have been counterproductive if the Messiah wasn't killed as prophesied
1Cor 2:7-8:
"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world to our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."
3. The Messiah was the sacrificial LAMB of God
John 1:29:
"The next day John sees Jesus coming to him, and said, Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world."

Without the shedding of Blood, no forgiveness of sin is possible
Heb 9:22:
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."

My answer to this would make this spiral into a religious argument, which is something I have promised myself never to involve in again.

Are you saying that God made a mistake for choosing Israel?

How should I know how God's mind(s) function(s)?
Did He make a mistake when He created the Garden of Eden and decided to plant the forbidden tree therein? Only He knows what He does and why He does them. Whatever explanation we come up with on His ways are mere conjectures.

So, you are saying you did not bother reading before you responded?

Trust me. I not only believe you, I very know, as it is something I've continued to repeatedly warn you about to no avail, it is seeming.

shadeyinka:
Hello Buda,
Would you believe I didn't see that it was you until after your response. My response was for "the muslim" according to their own beliefs

Not for you please.
My response was for "the muslim" according to their own beliefs


I agree the word corrupted is too heavy unfortunately, this is what the modern Muslim narrative want to project.
At the time when Islam was at its infancy, Allah asked Muslims to refer to the people of the book to confirm that Mohammed was speaking the truth!
If the bible was already corrupted (at the time of Mohammed), why would Allah refer Moslems to it?

Mohammed himself judged from the "book of the Jews": there was a hadith that reported that a Jewish woman was caught in adultery and the Jews brought the woman to Mohammed for Judgement and Mohammed said: "What is written in the Taurat" and a Jew read the portion while covering the part on "stoning". Another Jew opposed this and read the part on "stoning" so that the judgement of stonning was passed on the woman.

Mohammed never once suggested nor insinuated that the scriptures before the quaran has been corrupted. It is the modern muslims on seeing lots of contradictions that came up with that view.



Muslims who claim corruption should show the "why" and the "how" and should expain if the when was before Islam or after Islam was established.


Like I said, the post refer to those who label the bible as corrupted!
The accusers should prove their claim as it affects Islam!

Can we understand every difference between the bible and the Quran as a corruption of the Bible?

Examples:
1. Jesus was neither crucified nor killed in the Quran
2. Mary the Mother of Jesus was confused with Miriam the sister of Aaron
3. Trinity in the Quran is God, Mary and Jesus
4. Joseph requested his master to put him inside the prison according to the Quran

For the Muslims, all these and many more are explainable from the fact that the Bible is CORRUPTED!

The Real Name of Allah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7l7f1qFsGE

Here's a short clip by Christian Prince answering the question.

aadoiza:

Yes Muslims hate the Jews, but your claiming that the "pigs" in that hadith narration is a lie—and certainly one of the numerous concoctions in all these books of ahadith. Even this particular narration, without the false interpretation, is still very much debatable in some quarters. I remember Mundir Markaz in Agege, Lagos, condemning the Hadith a few years back. He also cited some of your points as to why the hadith should not taken seriously.

I think it was Prophet Mohammed's hatred of the Jews (especially) that which gave rise to the Hadith by Muslim of Muslims killing the Jews at the end time that has caused all these justifications and labeling.

Unlike you, most Christians who read the Hadiths never bother to ask if the Hadith is strong or weak (Just as we generally treat snakes, all snakes are dangerous poisonous or not). For me, I regard hadiths by Muslim andbBuhari as credible.

aadoiza:

I don't give a hoot about some bloody Sunni clerics, or their proclamations. I'm on my own, so I dont follow any stupid sect nor do I imbibe the ways of the contraption called the Muslim world. You'd be making a valid argument if you show me where Allah SWT called the Jews pigs in the holy Qur'an or his prophet SAW referred to them as such.

I think the same argument goes for the corruption of the Bible. Neither the Qur'an nor Prophet Mohammed insinuated that.

aadoiza:

My answer to this would make this spiral into a religious argument, which is something I have promised myself never to involve in again.

Okay!

aadoiza:

How should I know how God's mind(s) function(s)?
Did He make a mistake when He created the Garden of Eden and decided to plant the forbidden tree therein? Only He knows what He does and why He does them. Whatever explanation we come up with on His ways are mere conjectures.

We know the mind of God through the scriptures. God shows us only what we needed to know and we can thus say
1. Nothing by God is an accident or a mistake.
2. God knows the end even before the beginning
3. God knew that man would turn evil even before God decided to create him.
4. God had made a solution for man's Failures before creation of the world.

Rev 13:8:
"And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

budaatum:
So, you are saying you did not bother reading before you responded?

Trust me. I not only believe you, I very know, as it is something I've continued to repeatedly warn you about to no avail, it is seeming.

I didn't pay attention to the poster: I payed attention to the post!

shadeyinka:

I didn't pay attention to the poster: I payed attention to the post!

You did not pay any attention to the post! Lol!

If you had paid attention to the post you would not have asked the questions you asked because the answers are in the links you should have paid attention to if you had paid attention to the post.