UGBE634:
You see why Egharevba cannot be taken seriously, Ezomo'n'Uzebu as an example is from Ewohimi in Esanland, his descendants greet la-ogiesan. you see why Binis don't take his Akure antecedent heavily influenced his write up of Bini. I can use that video you posted earlier to debunk this work. No Uzamas came from Ife

What is Aywaw and which of his son was called Bini

And also not all Ihogbe chiefs are hereditary, some are by appointment

The Original Ojomo/Ezomo were not hereditary... they were simply valiant citizens who proved themselves in war/battle/chivalry

By some accounts, Oranmiyan conferred his own Ojomo from Usen. Ezomos became hereditary after Oba Akinjuwa (Akenzua), which is most likely the Esan pedigree of Ezomo started and became fixed.

Edigin and Olo (1 & 2)

Ine of Igun (3)

Ihogbe (4)

Infact, I have virtually covered all the families I mentioned.

UGBE634:
See scholes0 there is nothing like an Esogban family, it is not hereditary, it was a title created by Oba Ewedo alongside with Iyase, Uso, Eson, Esama etc these are town chiefs, they are not bastardization of what you have in yorubaland, on the death of an Esogban, the title is given to another family whom the Oba seems fit, one of the patriarch of the Iyamu family has been Esogban before. to be specific he was talking about his Edebiri family.

The Ihogbe chiefs are not from Ife. Where is your proof[b][/b]

I know of Bamawo, I have read of Osa and Osuan, the others you cannot just claim without going down to verify.

Also this is the strength of our argument, you listed several families up to about thirty, then you just assume they are all from Ife, even the Uzamas Don't deviate,

Eson, Ero, Edigin, Ogbebor n'Usen, the Oba, the whole of the Ihogbe class of Chiefs and their descendants who are the official keepers of the Oba's Pedigree and History (Uheloro, Letema, Uhe Obioba, Uheluyi, Ihama, Legema and co), the Adun, The Ine of Igun casters and his people, the Esogban, Eriyo, Elema, Eholo, Ehendiwo, the Ogbe sasa chiefs like the Olukotun and Olukohi .

Odofin (Edohen), Olifa (Oliha) and Aro (Ero). I

Yes the current Esogban family, Edebiris.
See, the Esogban title was created by Oba Ewedo as Asogbon. (Source of wise counsel) He is usually a chief adviser of the Oba chosen from a close relative of the Oba himself , related to him by BLOOD.

Okay, here is what I am going to do... I am going to list each name I mentioned and attach the proof f their Ife pedigree.
Oloton, Bamawo, Osa, Osuan, The Oba.... you've agreed.

Attached below are the following: (pic1)
Ojomo and Odofin
Osolo and Oloton
Oliha and Ine
Aro and Elemo

Ehendiwo: (pic2 & 3)

Ogieva, Ihama and Oloton: (pic 4)

UGBE634:
He is talking about his Esogban family, I pasted this video on a past argument with my kinsmen I already know this, I am also of that of Oloton, I mean all the families I quoted, even the Uzamas

He said he and the entire Esogban family came from ife oooo.
Are you saying Eogban family comes from Ife with one mouth, and saying he didn't with another?

Are you denying that the Ihogbe chiefs are from Ife also?

Or Osa and Osuan?

Or the Ine of Igun?

Or Eriyo aka Obo Oronmila of ife?

Or Edigin, Ehendiwo and Bamawo?

Since you know of the Oloton's pedigree, what will you say about the Elama below?

UGBE634:
Let me see it first, don't give me conditions, I am not the only spectator here

Okay you no wan do Quid pro Quo, but I will engage you none the less, and that is because you are at least level headed.

Listen to the Asogban (Esogban) of Benin. From 09:47 to 10:30


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZQZl-yyNqE&t=812s

Respond with what you hear him say.

UGBE634:
where the Esogban said all the families there migrated from Ife Even the Uzamas

I will give you, but will you agree with the TRUTH after I give you?

UGBE634:
Said it that all the families there came from Ife? Where is the source

Okay which of them?

AutomaticMotors:


Calm down I was referring to Ile Ife migration nonsense paraded by most Yorubas and not their even more hilarious oduduwa falling from the sky with two chickens tale .... I thought I was specific enough ?

Maybe we should accept the Egyptian migration nonsense of the Benins then, or the one where Oba the son of Osanobua went under the sea to battle Olokun and now owns all the land from Benin to Europe. At least two Yoruba chickens are better than one Edo Chameleon that can't even fly but landed from the Sky.

Sone of you no get zenz. You live in glass houses but don't know how not to throw stones

UGBE634:
Have you gone to interview every family there and you are certain they came from Ife or yoruba or it is because their names sound alike with what you have in Yoruba land, you suggest they are from yoruba. Maybe I should take automaticmotors serious and stop arguing with you.

What interviews? The Esogban and the Ine amongst others said it with their own mouths. I am not assuming.
Don't worry, I know it might be hard to agree.

AutomaticMotors:
Ugbe634 you are arguing Edo history with scholes0 a Yoruba boy from "Ondo"..... You are unbelievable sometimes, let me just let you know this right now!!!

Who is this one? can you argue "Edo" history with me?
Better go find somewher to siddon. this discussion is above your immature wits and hominem attacks. Is the discussion about me or the topic being discussed, mtcheew

UGBE634:
That Udo is older is not in doubt at all, Udo is older and supreme in terms of age and historical importance, you can tell folklores of Udo up to four thousand years. there is a festival or ceremony that is done in Benin, I can't place my hand on the name right now, when they are done doing it, One of the fore-man in the festival would cry with a loud voice nomarehe vbe nor ya he vbu udo, ari-eman gha riu udo ne" meaning who has not eaten let him go and eat in Udo, Eman ( pounded yam) has been taken to Udo. That shows the supremacy of Udo as our foremost town, now Udo is old, she is so ancient as compare to Benin, Benin might not even be older than Urhonigbe, what is going for her is that she is the present seat of the Oba. What made the Court of Uhe chose Benin over Udo might be because she is at the centre of Benin.

The culture of Utesse and Usen was not preserved because it is recent and because they kept in touch but rather because they migrated as a group and secondly because they are at the edge, I bet you if any or both of them had gone to settle at the centre, they would have been swallowed up by now and speak Edo as a mono-dialect.

Time is not even a factor for Udo not been yoruba speaking, it never happened, there was never a yoruba civilization in Udo, Udo was always peopled and a steady rival to Benin just like Ugo, it was not until the reign of the Warrior king Oba Esigie before Udo was finally subdued.

I am not faulting the chroniclers, but the persons who gave out the Information, You cannot override the influence of the Oba on Udo and every other Benin community. The first port of call historically was usually the Palace, especially as it pertains to the history of the people. If you want to get pure Edo history, go and ask Urhobo or Etsako, then merge it with the story of the local Binis and Esan then you will know who is telling the truth and a lie, as against the Oba of Bini story who has successfully made Edo history- yoruba history.

While that might be true that they may have been monolingual in Edo by now, they for sure would still have their pedigree intact. There are countless families in Oredo and Benin metro generally that are well aware of their Ife origins.
The families of; Eson, Ero, Edigin, Ogbebor n'Usen, the Oba, the whole of the Ihogbe class of Chiefs and their descendants who are the official keepers of the Oba's Pedigree and History (Uheloro, Letema, Uhe Obioba, Uheluyi, Ihama, Legema and co), Osa and Osuan, the Adun, The Ine of Igun casters and his people, the Esogban, Eriyo, Elema, Eholo, Bamawo, Ehendiwo, Oloton, the Ogbe sasa chiefs like the Olukotun and Olukohi ... and so on, on, on, on....forth.
The Yoruba presence in Benin is very numerous... Benin city is littered with place names of these Yoruba people, although they are all Benins today.

The presence of Yorubas in Benin preceded Oranmiyan, that is what many don't know (or don't want to agree with, because it breaks with a certain narrative), people want to conviniently agree that Yorubas only started flowing towards Benin/Edo with the Oranyan episode, that is untrue. In fact, let me blow your mind - The Uzama who facilitated the settling of Oranmiyan in the vicinity of Benin were already on ground since the early time of the Ogiso) I am talking of the likes of the Odofin (Edohen), Olifa (Oliha) and Aro (Ero). It is no wonder they shielded their brother from the tumults of Benin when Oranmiyan was trying to settle until he left again. The Ogiso-Ife link will make complete sense to any one who is willing to look with an open mind.

On the rest of what you said, I am glad you agree that the writers were not making up stuff.

RedboneSmith:
I thought it was common knowledge that linguistically, Ogori language (called Oko) belongs to the NOI group (Nupoid-Oko-Idomoid), and as such is closer to Nupe, Ebira, Gwari and Idoma, than to Yoruba or Edo.

If today they speak Yoruba and have adopted aspects of Yoruba culture, it is by the same process by which other small groups surrounded by the Yoruba (eg., the Western Apoi, Ayere-Ahan, etc) are progressively being Yoruba-ized.

N-O-I is just like Y-E-A-I.
So while Oko might be nominally closer to Nupoid compared to the languages in YEAI, it is an independent arm of that branch. The argument being made by the other guy was that the language was Idomoid or Edoid. He seems to be throwing those terms around without really understanding what they actually mean. It is the same as saying Etsako is Igboid or that Urhobo is Yoruboid because Yoruboid and Edoid are said to be on the same branch.
On the other hand, the case with the Apoi is a bit more complex because they intermarried heavily with the Ikale in the past and now are monolingual in a Yoruba dialect. This was what led to the Apoi language shift which is as a matter of fact complete, not in process. (It happened even before Nigeria)
Then in addition, the Ogori and Magongo claim an Ife point of origin just like the Ayere.

Thebadpolitican:



My mum is from ogori my father is an idoma man.... The idoma people calls ogori brothers I also schooled in edo north and I can tell the ogori are also close to the edo just like the idoma, but definitely not yoruba. I guess recent cultural influence brought in the yoruba antiquity

It's all coming together perfectly.

UGBE634:
I don't think that Oral account was gotten from Udo, if it was it is not what I will take so seriously, and these are the reasons for it,
1. there is no sign of yorubaness in Udo, it is not that they migrated to the centre and say okay maybe they were submerged, for example that of Usen is so easy to believe, one can understand that they migrated down and were not submerged totally since they are at the edge,they still manage to retain their dialect alongside incorporating the language of the natives they met on ground. what about Utesse, they seem to speak a strange dialect that seem to be a mixture of yoruba and Edo. so when they talk about their yoruba antecedent, it is easier to believe, but on the other hand, Udo speak pure Bini, and is the house for the mightiest shrine in Idu or Edo land which is the Eriwmin-Idu.

today it is hard not to go online and see an Edo man from other tribal descent maybe Esan or Urhobo talking about Igodomigodo and Idu and featuring Udo, and as they feature Udo, they will be telling you that the yoruba people came around, that is why their group migrated. There is nothing you will tell me scholes0, Udo is the town with the largest tales of migration, Etsako, Esan, Urhobo, Ijaw,they can't all be lying,they couldn't have migrated from there and seem to have very related dialects with Bini and other regions. Udo seem to be the very core of what the very Edo race stand for, Urhobo, Esan, Etsako, Benin etc. the earlier history seem to be influenced by the Oba of Benin and it is just recently after the fall out with the Oba's line that is when the Iyase begun telling his history his own way. If she did migrated from Ife, how did she submerge totally to now become the core of the Edo race, when she is at the periphery, we know Udo to be very ancient and our core. Udo is a strong aboriginal community that is in the western flank. alongside with oral traditions, other facts should help in substantiating these things, it is on these basis that I find this not to be true

If you are talking about the importance of towns in the Edo race, Udo is first, it is the primal town of all Edo people, Udo's influence extend properly beyond Bini even into other Edo tribes, when you see other Edo tribes talk about migrating from Benin , they are not talking about Benin city, they are talking about Udo,

The second would be Benin, then Urhonigbe. Udo is the uniting chord of all Edo people, it is Like the Ife of the yoruba people, there is no way she would have migrated from Ife and not distribute her yoruboid trait, there is no way Udo is a Migrants town from Ife and we are not yorubas, there is no way, because the migrant population from Udo is far larger than any other Benin community.

There are variations but Udo is at the core of what Edo is, the oldest families in Benin is from Udo

Lastly Edo is not a corruption of Udo nor was it gotten from it, vive-versa, what we have is that the name Edo was that of a servant who helped the Oba in ascending the throne and in turn the Oba named the Bini city and country they are distinct and light years apart, they did not in anyway affected each others name.

It is not believable, Udo is at the periphery, she is not yoruba speaking, she does not even speak it as one of her dialect, she does not even speak a mix, she speak super pure Bini that a man from The Eastern flank of Urhonigbe and Oza would not have any trouble comprehending. My brother Oudobo does not add up. My brother there is no community that is more Edo than Udo, if at all Udo migrated, then every other Bini communities migrated.

Neccesity is laid on me to defend what is ours, and that I would do passionately, Udo is not a Migrants town at all let alone being one from the south west. Udo is our core, I am an eastern Bini man but I tell you this with all confidence, Udo is our core and our rallying point not just for the Binis but for the entire Edo race. Intuitively and instinctively you will just know it is not true

While it is nice and all to defend the 'Edoness' of Udo this passionately (I would do the same if it were me), you can't possibly be saying all those people cooked up accounts of what they met and decided to lie 'on' the Udo people out of thin air. If there's one thing I have observed about some of these neutral party writings about Nigerian cultures, it is that they try to write to the best of their observation of what they saw and traditions they met.

You for example, claim that in Edo affairs, Udo is supreme - but the actual core of Benin society today which is BENIN CITY would actually disagree vehemently with you, and that was why I asked you that preceding question. You on the other hand only agreed because you knew what would happen if you disagreed. At any rate, Udo as the core of Edo people is an era long gone.

You didn't address any of the points I raised but rather pointed to linguistic evidence and oral accounts alone, while stating that it bodes on you to defend your heritage. While it MIGHT be true that the retention of Yorubanisms is weaker now in Udo than it is in Benin, that is because Benin actually defeated udo and many of its residents fled either to Benin or back west. The ton became empty and desolate and did not start growing again until around the 70s or so. Besides, Benin has been the capital and nexus of Edo people since then. Udo was neglected by the Uhe courts as Benin was the new capital.

In the 1940s P.R Page recorded a Benin tradition that Igodo who first ruled at Udo was not Edo but actually IFE. This was before the second Ife derived dynasty that produced the culture of those in the Usen-Utese axis that were able to retain their dialects because they were; (1) closer in time; (2) in continual touch with Ife.

Anyways, all that being said - It is already rare enough to find a Benin man that is willing to accept the truth about the source of Benin's present ruling dynasty... most deny it outrightly. One on this forum is even saying the story of Oduduwa and Oranyan never existed and that it was cooked up in the Western region of old. Expecting you to accept some other things I am bringing to limelight might be too forward of a push from myself, and I wouldn't expect you to just agree, not at all. So alas, nice one.

UGBE634:
it is

Good. Now that we have established that, check what the people of Udo originally claimed to have come from according to histographers like Darling and notes from the Partridge report in the two screenshots below.

Do you know why Benin's extensive system of deterring moats (iya) was mainly built to focus on and block influence from the eastern flank, and virtually none can be found towards west in the Usen-Udo-Siluko area (Iyekovia) adjoining Ondo even though Udo and Benin were bitter rivals for a very long period of history? The people to the west of the Osse (Ovia) river were NEVER at any time seen as enemies to either of Benin or Udo and they needed to keeep the constant tandemic communication between the Edo and the Yoruba of ife via the Ukoluhe (messengers of Ife) going smoothly and uninterrupted.

Infact, the most important historical and archaeological facts about Benin always point to this area in one way or the other. All the mothers of the early Obas of Benin came from behind the Osse river, up till very much later when the mothers of the Obas started to coming from the Orhiomwon area and further east side.

UGBE634:
they might not have gone to Udo, to the Oba, going to Udo will not be necessary,( as to him, he is the custodian of the culture and traditions of Edo people) the people who were interviewed were certainly from the Oba's court in Benin city. The Oba tell the history of these communities on their behalf. with Ife appearing everywhere, it is obvious that this is the Oba and Egharevba's narrative, it is only just recently aborigines who are not comfortable with such started speaking out, and the internet now is helping,go to these various communities Even in Esan and Urhobo, and the local Bini communities, you will find out that the history of the Ogisos is one way not featuring any yoruba and the numbers are the same but that that of the palace Is starkly different, then when you go to the Oba's palace, it is different

So you agree that Udo is older than Benin?

UGBE634:
And where is Ufe located, ? Go to Udo and not that poorly researched work that christ is truth pasted some time ago with visible faults everywhere , Udo is a traditional community and one of our oldest, I would want you to go there interviewing the elders and the king in that community,. I bet my life no one will tell you any Ogiso came from Ife, maybe I might even do so one of these days, when I have the chance to interview the people on their history and the history of the Ogisos when I have the chance to.

I have never heard nor read of the Udo coming from the west, it has always been the other way round. Udo is older than Ondo, seeing how "edonized" some of these Ondo communities are, it is actually to the fact that Ondos migrated and sank into the yoruba sea

I am not arguing with you that if I go there now they won't agree with that narrative. I even told you that the narrative there has actually changed.
Only telling you that that account existed, and it was documented. Even people like Talbot, and later on the likes of Egharevba talked about it when they documented how Udo was the first abode of Ogiso.

babasolution:

Also, some Akoko-edo tribes eg ekpe, and make me etc from the book are originally ogori, they branched out for several reasons

How can Ekpe be from Ogori but claim an Okpameri affiliation and also speak same, but Ogori their purported mother stock that is just a stone throw away have a completely different language?
That makes no sense, no lie.

UGBE634:
scholes0 I like the way you place words, but I would want you to have an understanding of some of these issues, what we find is that to obtain legitimacy from the People, the yoruboid set of Binis seem to want to "yorubanize" Bini history both local and "foreign", whatever we do we should understand that Bini is not really one sect and everyone has the right to tell their history regardless of who is more famous and prominent and we also have a right to accept what we should accept, we have seven main kings in Benin which are (1)Oba of Benin
(2.)Ogie-amien of Utantan
(3)Iyase of Udo
(4) Enogie of Ugo
5 Okaevbo of Urhonigbe
6 Enogie of Egor
7. Elawure of Usen
These stools


it is only perhaps in the mouth of yoruba affiliated kings and people that you will hear of Ogiso coming from Ife, which are the Oba of Benin and Olu-awure of Usen and other yoruba affiliated people, we had moonlight tales in Benin then growing up when Benin was not this urban, it should still be there in the villages, not for once did I hear of any Ogiso coming from Ife, I only read it for the first time on nairaland .

The Oba and the Usen people are not qualified to tell the history of the Ogisos, they don't have the locus-standi to tell it. The Ogisos and her history predates their existence in Benin. The history of the Ogisos is entirely a local business. a business of the aborigines

Actually the people of Udo also agreed and had this narrative that they came from the west of Nigeria. They were a powerful rival to Benin until they were defeated in the Benin-Udo war, and the majority of them returned to the Ufe area. Many didn't get to Uhe and settled across the Ondo region. It is this dispersal from the war that some like the Iyase and some prominent chief in Udo turned around at about the 70s/80s to say the Ondo people originated from them.

UGBE634:
That any sky king branched out from Ife is not true, it is in fact not in tandem with reality

Many seasoned Historians and some Edo oral tradition disagrees.

babasolution:


Yes you can bring what ogori people on ground are saying.

The prof probably is a linguistics prof,he didn't just write stuff,he knew what he was saying,by the say his own postulations is even the closest to Yoruba origin of ogori,there are other books by other ogori profs who outrightly dispute any Yoruba links to ogori,like the book from prof oshiedu and another one which I have forgotten his name.

These are profs that probably researched the topic.

The book provided facts and evidences to back up its claim.

The Yoruba origin story is mostly moonlight tale no much concrete facts to back it up.
Though the book postulated that ogori is direct from ife,it stated that ogori metamorphosed to a unique tribe after its very long journeys and stay faraway from yorubaland.

The links with Yoruba are only at the earliest stages,not different from say itsheriki link with Yoruba.

Like the itsekiri, the ogori became a unique of its own,even more distinct than the itsekiri because ogori lived with the Edo and idoma people for very long time.

Also note the even within the Yoruba itself,they have disputing origin stories so we can't just rely on any oral unresearched story by elders in ogori.

There were many things in that history of ogori book that were shocking to me,i also used to believe the supposed undoubted link of ogori to Yoruba until I read that book.

There are other surprising things in the book eg of the fact that ogori was once far larger than ebira,and ogori even originally owns most of ebiraland.

Whether it's true or not ,it's worth considering,
All am saying is that the ogori are deeper than simply a Yoruba subtribe that many ogorians even refer themselves as.

It goes deeper than that if you are willing to look

Oga, I haven't even said Ogori are Yoruba, I am only disputing your spurious claim that Ogori are either of Idomoid or Edoid... which are both VERY false, Why are you typing a letter? .
When did you live in Benin? During the time of the Edo sky skings from Ife or during our second dynasty of Owomika (Eweka)?

babasolution:


Am telling you I have read history and origin books of ogori written by ogori profs,the one I remember correctly is the one by prof Akerejola, the former "king" of ogori,he explained that ogori lived with idoma for over 200years,he also explained that the ogori lived with lived in benin too for a long while after living ife it's from there he postulated they crossed the river into the igala- idoma region and settled,he also explained that there are remnants of ogori who migrated to nasarawa and other parts of kogi eg kakanda,theres even a part of ogori called ENI who are even said to be pure benin origin,this is from an ologori himself,not my words, ogori culture is very very distinct from Yoruba ,so is the language,they only adopted a lot of yoruba culture,likewise many akokoedo people,who also speak yoruba fluently,also many akoko edo peoples have similar culture to ogori,you probably aren't from ogori if not you'll understand.

Says all we need to know.
Kakanda are now a remnant of Ogori.
What Nigerians don't know is that the fact that an elder/chief or even king says something, or that someone publushed something in a book doesn't make it factually or historically accurate. Even false narratives grow with people's age. So a man or woman can be of advanced age and still end up telling you pure sakamanje fabu.

Btw: Since you are retorting that I am not from Ogori, do you want me to bring you what REAL OGORI PEOPLE on ground are saying?

The following are debatable:

Long leg (Which is an expression in many nigerian languages directly translated into pidgin)
Buka.

babasolution:


You are wrong,have books,oko is grouped along idoma,also the ogori lived with idoma for centuries according to a book written by an ogori prof. It as a relationship with idoma but it's not idoma,it's a combination of several languages idoma being a major one.

Also ,why do you think ogori-magongo is non edoid.

Ogori even by basic layman observation doesn't look yoruboid,it's more similar to Edo culture and systems.

It looks to me like you are confused. It is clear from your unsure stance on whether to latch on to Edo to Idoma cultures.
They lived with Idoma for centuries but are very similar to Edo culture. They are even Edoid WHILE THEIR LANGUAGE IS more of Idoma (according to you) confusion pro max.

By the Way, there is no way to look Yoruboid. Igala are Yoruboid but have their own culture. Yoruboid is a linguistic classification, not a culture or outlook.
Same goes with all the other linguistic groupings. Infact, the Edo groups to the south of Ogori are very different from Benin culturally. Same way Degema in rivers state or Epie in Bayelsa (which are also Edoid) are also very distinct and different from Auchi or Okpella.

babasolution:


You are wrong,have books,oko is grouped along idoma,also the ogori lived with idoma for centuries according to a book written by an ogori prof.It as a relationship with idoma but it's not idoma,it's a combination of several languages idoma being a major one.

I repeat, Oko is not Idomoid. It is not closer to Idoma than Benin is to Igbo. If you are claiming oko is a 'combination' of several languages, then it basically becomes a creole.

If you insist otherwise, show us a construction of proto-Idoma and proto-oko and show us the parallels that makes it any more closer to one another than Yoruba is to Igbo.

babasolution:
Also ,why do you think ogori-magongo is non edoid.

I am not the one 'thinking' it. Ogori is not Edoid because it simply isn't. It is not Edoid by any measure. Not cultural, not linguistic, not material. Not even oral history which can be as wild as the imaginative depth of the human mind.
Now back to you, how is it Edoid?

babasolution:
Ogori even by basic layman observation doesn't look yoruboid,it's more similar to Edo culture and systems.

How do you mean by this though? what layman observation? On a first time visit to Ogori.. there is nothing about the place that makes one think they are in a culturally distinct zone from Yorubaland (facts)


If the Ogori people themselves (who are very much Yoruba-ish to me) continue to claim Ife and Yoruba links, then that is what they are! How are they more Edoid? or even Idoma? Even on this very thread, ogori people have confirmed it.. You on the other hand keep saying something else.

babasolution:


True,ogori may have had contact but not necessarily originating from Yoruba as widely claimed even by ogori/magongo people.

Ogori language, oko is grouped with idoma and Nupe,it is said to be idomoid,and prof akerejola wrote in his history of ogori book than ogori lived with idoma for up to 200years.

Ogori is a distinct tribe,but my hypothesis is that we are more edoid than yoruboid

There is nothing Edoid about Ogori.
Neither is it Nupoid or Idomoid... I don't know how you guys interprete what y'all read.

The Oko-Eni-Osayen language that the Ogori people speak is an independent branch of N-O-I (Nupe-Oko-Idomoid) languages of Volta-Niger.
Meaning that it is as close to Idoma as Yoruba is as close to Edo or igbo.

LightOnScams:


Well, when someone mentions the Yoruba language, your mind doesn't go to Ijebu, does it?

My mind goes to the collective actually, not just any one group. I don't think of yoruba in my head and be like ''My own group in Ondo state are not part of those Yoruba people".
In your own case however, I also understand that there are geopolitical idiosyncrasies.

LightOnScams:
There's a difference between Proto-Yoruba, Proto-Yoruba-Itsekiri and Proto-Yoruba-Itsekiri-Igala.
Here's a node tree of the breakoff showing Itsekiri taking a different path of evolution, I'd appreciate any source from you saying otherwise.

This particular schematic diagram you posted is just one of several models out there, and even from this one sef, you can see that Both Itsekiri and SEY have the direct same root. The research wasn't even sure how to characterize the association of SE Yoruba, notice the use of the dashed lines... And the reason why he was faced with that conundrum is because he thinks Itsekiri is an independent branch. With that pre notion already in mind, something as clear as the place of SEY with the rest of her Yoruba co-branches like NEY, CY, SWY suddenly became confusing and unclear.

It just is not possible for Itsekiri to 'ghost jump' over hundreds of kilometres from the urheimat of the Yoruba peoples around the Niger-Benue confluence area and suddenly land in the creeks of the southwestern Niger delta without leaving path traces. It only follows perfect logic that they descended from the south eastern Yoruba stock that were flowing south eastwards... Infact, this can be perfectly seen in the kinship ties that continues to exist between Southestern Yoruba groups like the Ilaje and Ijebu with Itsekiris till date. Itsekiri is SEY.

Pattern of development actually looks something more like the attached diagram.
The SE Yoruba are all a single original stock. This is also the position of prof Ogundiran whom you quoted earlier

LightOnScams:

How's it obvious? I mentioned it already tho. Check the first page.

I no care about cohesion sha, but there are things we can't stop.

Like dialectal levelling.
I notice something though, which is that the Okuns who deny being Yoruba the most are those that grew up elsewhere up North (usually in mixed/multi ethnic northern metropoles), and not even the ones who grew up in their very own okun towns and villages or in the SW with their other kith. If indeed like you say... villages like Ipawo and Itapaji self identify as being Yagba and not Ekiti, then it is next to impossible for them (in this age) to not self identify with their Ijesha or Igbomina brothers. What is your assessment of this observation?

LightOnScams:

While we agree that Itsekiri being related to the Oyo Yoruba, why do you consider it a subgroup of a language far up North than others in the same SE language stock? We know why. The spread you talk about started with the Oyo/Ibadan military expansionism.

I don't get it.. No one is saying Itsekiri is a subgroup of Oyo... so what do you mean by 'subgroup of a language far up North'? Both Itsekiri and its SE Yoruba brethren are daughter dialects of the Yoruba lects. Also, unlike you, I am not using Yoruba interchangeably with Oyo. If the need be for me to reference Oyo specifically, I will call them out by name.

LightOnScams:
Personally and to many, the use of the term dialect to refer to Itsekiri is in many ways derogatory. Itsekiri, according to most[b], broke out earlier from the Proto-Yoruba-Iteskiri group just like the Igalas did earlier[/b]. Why force the subgroup term on them? I'm curious

Itsekiri didn't break out of Proto Yoruba. Itsekiri actually broke out of South Eastern Yoruba and migrated into the insular creeks. If itsekiri broke out of Proto Yoruboid, it would be closer to Igala than it is to Ikale, but it isn't. A Yoruba and an Itsekiri can both be called Olushola, but an Igala can't.
To your last point, well, I don't think the Yoruba identity is being forced on them, but believe you mean when I tell you that I have seen some Itsekiris who identify as the Yorubas of the Niger Delta.

LightOnScams:

Yoruba, like we all know, is a recent ethnic term. According to Akin Ogundiran (2021), the term "Yoruba" evolved from the word "Yagba" in the 19th century during the slave trade era.

We understand that Itsekiri was left out in the formation of the Yoruba identity. B[b]ut considering them a sub-group or dialect is what I don't agree with.[/b]

You are not right.
Also, on the degree of dialectal differences in Yoruba, this excerpt further confirms it... And that is why the so called "general" Yoruba was able to spread so rapidly across the entire breadth of Yorubaland.
Carving out independent niches for our groups is 'sexy' and all that, but abeg let us try to be realistic while at it.

The dialectal differences in Yoruba tbh are not even that drastic. Except we want to exaggerate them… Well, at least compared to some other languages I am conversant with.

Field work proved that prople as far west as Bante and Chetti (In Benin Republic) did not require a separate text to understand the so called Yoruba bible perfectly, and these are populations that were never exposed to MSY.

Then with the eastern dialects, intelligibility with SWY is usually more in one way that the other. Most likely because Oyo/Egba on which MSY is based on are like simplified EY. The Easterners will understand all the western speech, but the westerners will still grasp like 80% of an Ikale man.

LightOnScams:

Well, like I said before, I'm frustrated seeing many Yagba people not knowing it.

My roommate back in school was one. He grew up in Isanlu, but only understands Yoruba. Like fr? I chose not to speak in Yoruba throughout our stay due to what I tag the "Yorubanization of Okun". I don't even understand Yoruba that much, lol. I don't really care about it, it interferes with my speaking.

From some of the things you've said so far, I do not think the majority of your time growing up was in Yagba land. It is actually kind of obvious, lol.
As for your Isanlu friend being unable to speak Yagba, it shouldn't be that surprising that you would think it was so unusual that it should come as a such a 'shocker' to you (like fr, as you put it). it is actually quite the norm (at least these days) and increasingly so.
It is unfortunate but dialectal levelling is the norm in Languages with dialects. It is happening in Europe with German, Italian etc. Same in West Africa and Nigeria here as well.

I personally belong to a Yoruba dialectal area that is not NWY, so I very well understand the sentiment you have, but our dialects are dying unfortunately. On the overall effect of this, I am actually quite torn on the issue of whether everyone should continue speaking dialects in their own little social/clan enclaves or whether the levelling should continue and create stronger cohesion.. The thing dey dicey.