AlBaqir:


Well if that's your assumption, I respect it and you can add those medals of victory to your fanatical collection of medals. I don't/never debate or discuss to win or lose, such never exist in my religious world. However with my past experience with you, I learnt its impossible and unhealthy to debate ignorance - especially he who think he knows and of course, with intention of I must oppose by all means and in the process you always end up confusing yourself severally, perhaps due to too much copy-pasting and twisting when exposed.

# Yeah, tingtingz too once accused you of confusion on this thread. Try to work on that bro.

# Really its a waste of time and resources debating you. So, you might always see albaqir mute on your comments.

And where did i suggest wining or losing a debate?! I am ignorant good, and you are intelligent and knowledgeable great, i quoted the Qur'an, the verses destroys your arguments, explain if not true, you went on narrating stories, do you think i respond to you guys because of me?! Explain your views and forget long stories...

You guys read, but understanding is missing, tintingz still needs a lot of learning to do, i understand his plight, but you a graduate of Chemistry, also cannot differentiate between cause and risk factors, it is very disappointing, not to mention your numerous gaffe with regards to the Qur'an.

Do not stay mute because of me, explain the verses of the Qur'an to prove your argument and stop appealing to emotion!

AlBaqir:


Obviously you don't understand his point of view which is more "balance" than your own ignoramus comment. That says a lot with your "jazak'Allahu khairan" which is laughable.

I am really sorry for exposing your lies and fake ijtihad, you can't refute my submissions accordingly so you resort to this emotional outburst...running away like a chicken has always been your way, quote my relevant posts and explain your evolution based on the versses therein.

FYI, there happens to be no difference in what I have been explaining and what tbaba1234 posted, if false, quote me, I challenge you!

tbaba1234:


First of all, laws concerning incest in the United States vary according to jurisdiction. It is allowed in some states as long as the couple is of age. I know because I live in the US.

I think one of the biggest challenges is people who know a little about science but know nothing about the philosophy of science. There is no induction process that gives you 100% certainty. None.. So we make conclusions from the fossils we see today till another one shatters previous beliefs. The science of Evolution is an induction process and as such falls short of being a certainty.

Theologically, Islam has little conflict with evolution except when it comes to Man. In that case, we reject the narrative. I do not have to have an opinion of the other aspects.

As regards, flying on horses, you believe that a God made the complexity of the world from a single cell but can not believe, he would show his power in other ways? Unless, we have intellectual humility, knowledge is impossible.

Jazakallahu khairan bro for your insight.

tintingz:
We have shown you proves about evolution to be a fact, you are yet to show us your prove of flying horse(unicorn, Pegasus) Mohammed (SA) rode to heaven, you're yet to show us how Satan laughs and how he enter people's mouth, you're yet to show us where Adam(AS) settled, his skin color, his bones(fossil). Please show us prove of your fairytale.

Shuooo! And this boda claim he studied science?

From scientific and psychology examinations, incest(inbreeding) of first degree relatives causes severe birth defect, disabilities, early death. I can show you like 10 articles on this. This is just one:

The researchers examined four studies (including the Czech research) on the effects of first degree incest on the health of the offspring. Forty percent of the children were born with either autosomal recessive disorders, congenital physical malformations, or severe intellectual deficits. And another 14 percent of them had mild mental disabilities. In short, the odds that a newborn child who is the product of brother-sister or father-daughter incest will suffer an early death, a severe birth defect or some mental deficiently approaches 50 percent.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201210/the-problem-incest

Sighs! This is how you get easily misled. For someone who rejects the Qur'an and the Hadith because he doesn't want to be ignorant, it seems you still need a lot to do to save you from the present ignorance you are swimming inside...

Causes of Birth Defect:

Birth defects can occur during any stage of pregnancy. Most birth defects occur in the first 3 months of pregnancy, when the organs of the baby are forming. This is a very important stage of development. However, some birth defects occur later in pregnancy. During the last six months of pregnancy, the tissues and organs continue to grow and develop.

For some birth defects, like fetal alcohol syndrome, we know the cause. But for most birth defects, we don’t know what causes them. For most birth defects, we think they are caused by a complex mix of factors. These factors include our genes (information inherited from our parents), our behaviors, and things in the environment. But, we don't fully understand how these factors might work together to cause birth defects.

While we still have more work to do, we have learned a lot about birth defects through past research. For example, some things might increase the chances of having a baby with a birth defect, such as:
•Smoking, drinking alcohol, or taking certain “street” drugs during pregnancy.
•Having certain medical conditions, such as being obese or having uncontrolled diabetes before and during pregnancy.
•Taking certain medications, such as isotretinoin (a drug used to treat severe acne).
•Having someone in your family with a birth defect. To learn more about your risk of having a baby with a birth defect, you can talk with a clinical geneticist or a genetic counselor.
•Being an older mother, typically over the age of 34 years.

Having one or more of these risks doesn’t mean you’ll have a pregnancy affected by a birth defect. Also, women can have a baby born with a birth defect even when they don’t have any of these risks. It is important to talk to your doctor about what you can do to lower your risk.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/birthdefects/facts.html

If you do not know, the above site is the United States of America's CDC site, before you think I am quoting from and Islamic or Religious website!

tintingz:

Oga show us where Adam and Eve settled, their (bones)fossil, their skin color and stop telling us some middle east folklore.

You do not believe in the Qur'an, you do not believe in the Prophet (SAW), my evidences are the Qur'an and the hadith, where I need to start from wouldn't be appropriate for this thread.

AbdelKabir:


lol, just watch how shaytaan will give them wahy(revelation) on this that you've brought.

It shouldn't be surprising though, Allah (SWT) had said:

"Do ye not see that Allah has subjected to your (use) all things in the heavens and on earth, and has made his bounties flow to you in exceeding measure, (both) seen and unseen? Yet there are among men those who dispute about Allah, without knowledge and without guidance, and without a Book to enlighten them!" (Qur'an 31: 20)

The bold is very instructive!

AlBaqir:


Oh tingtingz, I forgot to add this to the above points:

# We have hadiths saying that Eve was created from Adam's rib - meaning that both of them were genetic clones. Children from a couple like that - and the grand children - cannot escape deformities and deaths, if incest relationship indeed occurred.

Apparently, you guys do not understand what you are reading, even from science! You are yet to answer my questions, then you want to quickly obfuscate your inadequacies by bringing up irrelevancies!

#FACT! Incest is never the cause of birth defect! if you disagree, bring your evidence

#I do not understand why it is so difficult for you to accept that Allah (SWT) created Eve from Adam (AS), and I still wonder what you are trying to achieve with pushing the acceptance of the theory of evolution when it still has a lot of uncertainties...Is it to appeal to the atheist?! or what?!

Now read the following verses:

And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers. (Q3:49 Sahih International)

By the way, that was Jesus (AS) talking there, did what take place in the above verse from the Qur'an suggest evolution in any way?! Was it not an immediate creation from clay?! How many years did it take for Jesus (AS) to create a bird from clay by the permission of Allah (SWT)?! O, it is Miracle!!! And the creation of the heavens and the earth is not?!

Secondly Allah (SWT) says further, when some Christians are confused and claim Jesus(AS) was divine,:

Indeed, the example of Jesus to Allah is like that of Adam. He created Him from dust; then He said to him, "Be," and he was. (Q3:59 Sahih International)

When clay became bird in an instant from a man (by the permission of Allah (SWT) ), why then are you now looking for evolution up and down?! To prove what exactly?!

Secondly, Jesus (AS) did not have a father o! How do you use evolution to explain this?!

tintingz:
Ok.

But you haven't show evidence of your fairytale claims so far.

Where did Adam and Eve settled, what color are they?

Those are evolutionist claims, I believe we are created and evolution occur. So What'sup?!

So? What those science and theory means?

Lol, the thing about you is that you are confuse and contradicting.

Today you make fun of science being an assumption study, tomorrow you claim you are not against science that it is accepted in Islam, next tomorrow you go against evolution(biology).

Just come out and state your stand, either you reject science or accept science because no scientists will reject evolution as it is part of science, even religious people are using evolution to prove their beliefs.

Lol, as if you've the technology in your house to do all this?

I posted a video recently about evolution, it answer your question.

There are many intelligent design out there with different stories of how humans came to be, I don't know which intelligent design you're talking of? Is it Zeus, Odin, Obatala, Yahweh, Allah? There are over thousands of intelligent design out there.

The intelligent design i believe gave us brain to reason and science to solve our problems. That's my ideology.


Then why do you say there are things we can't question?

Ok

You should always pay attention and understand other people's point of view.

I am not confused and I do not contradict myself, assumptions and theories can come from anyone, even non scientists, I am not obliged to take such as true or being fact or even as science! The Qur'an tells me to inquire and verify things adequately before accepting, and evolution as not answered all the question thrown at it, you yourself acknowledge that! When things are yet to be proven, I do not waste time in the back and forth of men about the process of evolution? so far, what as it yield? do we know how earth came about or why?! Do we know when we are to die or how to stop death?! Do we now know that there is no afterlife?!

Secondly, I did not say you shouldn't ask questions, I said our knowledge is limited, and science acknowledges that as well. I have the Qur'an that makes sense of it all, and you are waiting...Do you know how long you need to wait?!

AlBaqir:


# Excellent bro. I can't agree more.

# Quran says Allah's practice/Sunnah never changes. Why will incestous children be defectuous and have less chance to survive today but not in the beginning if truly incestous relationship occurred among the children of Adam and Awa for them to have such huge population?


# Just like scientist had proven, Quran also suggest early "human" before Adam on earth.

And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

What do you understand in this verse?

AlBaqir the Shi'a evolutionist

So when Allah (SWT) said He would place on the earth a Khalif, Allah was talking about evolving Adam (AS) from the human-like creatures already known to the Angels?! So tell us from the Qur'an, how Adam (AS) was evolved?! was it that the former human form was brought to the heavens, and then left in the garden to evolve before Allah (SWT) taught Adam (AS) the names of everything?! This is really an interesting aspect of evolution in the Qur'an o!

@Bold, Don't you all know that the reason for congenital disease is due to either of the parents carrying the defect or due to environmental and nutritional conditions during pregnancy?! If none of the parent is carrying any defect, their children would be healthy like any other! Only if you AlBaqir believe that Adam and Eve were created defective by Allah (SWT), then these your assumption would work! It is known that different periods of civilization had different Shari'a! some of the congenital diseases we have today are as a result of environmental conditions, from what we eat to exposures to radiations etc.

Allah (SWT) said:

O mankind, fear your Lord, who created you from one soul and created from it its mate and dispersed from both of them many men and women. And fear Allah , through whom you ask one another, and the wombs. Indeed Allah is ever, over you, an Observer. (4:1 Sahih international).

What was Allah (SWT) telling us @the bold AlBaqir?! Did Allah (SWT) informed us of creating many men and many women from many men and many women?! Or from one man and woman?!

tintingz:
Ok.

That's science or can you use Hadiths or scripture books to examine or explain the galaxy, universe, cosmos, biology, evolution, nature, medics, fossil etc.?

If not for science we won't know all these, we will rely on ancient myths and practice.

The Qur'an says we should observe, reflect and seek knowledge, it says we should explore the heavens if we can, all these clearly shows that Islam is not against science, rather it encourages Muslims to be scientific in their approach to understanding life and the environment. The advance in science has been remarkable, and due to this advancement, we are able to confirm some of the scientific facts in the Qur'an.

I am not here to attack science in general, but evolution, its principles and its evidences...

tintingz:

And where are the evidence you claim?

Even Muslims scientists and Christians are using science to show evidence/proves of the scriptures events, I don't know which other evidence you have claimed apart from using science. Please show us just one evidence you have claimed apart from using science. Show me the flying horse(unicorn) Muhammad (SA) used to travel to heaven, where can it be found, show me how Satan enter people's mouth or laughs. The funniest thing is that Hercules and Perseus rode on a flying horse in Greek mythology.

The evidence that I have that Allah (SWT) is the creator is the Qur'an! Evolutionist claim that life came about by chance, that is scientifically impossible, the theories abound, but none holds water, you cannot use evolution to explain life, yet you want to make fun of religion?!

tintingz:

Science knows how changes occurs, because some are not yet being solved doesn't mean its won't be solved. Can you show us how to cure Ebola from Hadiths?

Wrong, evolutionist, even from your link, stated clearly that the mechanisms for these process is unknown for certain, hence the theories, it is like a guess work, they see a fossil today, then they look for something that resembles human, then they claim, this is one of the ancestors of the human, then they come up with theories, then tomorrow, another discovery, shatters the previous held theories, and then the story continues...The changes are huge, there has been no concrete explanation for the how, it is just assumptions and speculations, with conflicting results after testing...

I had already informed you that the Qur'an and the hadiths are for guidance, they are not scientific journals, even though scientific facts can be found, they are meant to link you to your creator. Islam is not against seeking beneficial knowledge, I have already made that clear.

tintingz:

Humans are said to share DNA sequence with mammals, there are discovery bones of hairy ape-like being about million years ago in museums and science labs. Google and YouTube is your friend.

Yes we share some DNA sequence with other mammals, but that does not prove common ancestry, if this is true, then geneticist would have been able to successfully build a genetic tree for all animals, easily showing the trend of evolution, but this has been impossible, because the data are conflicting...Fossils found have yet to show an intermediate state of evolution, all the fossils were of complete organism, how come?! if they were evolving, then there ought to be that transition state found, this was captured appropriately in my previous link.

Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem:

[W]e are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. .

tintingz:

I believe an intelligent design created us with the process of evolution.

Great! Now what do you think is behind the intelligent design?! For "evolution" to be successful up to this point, that means the intelligent design is being guided and monitored. For modern human to be this intelligent, and reach this level of advancement, do you not see that the "what" behind the intelligent design would be far greater in intelligence than us, and if we, as sophisticated as we are, would never create anything, without attaching the user manual, do you then expect less from the "what" behind the intelligent design?!

tintingz:

Faith is something you give up on, questioning is limited, research is limited even with proves you are not to accept it as long as it doesn't align with your beliefs.

Science is a continual study, a research study that discover new thing, a study that push for answers and to solve problems, it is very different from faith, scientists don't give up.

You do not give up on faith, since certainty only comes at death, your faith would always be questioned, your ability to reflect and think properly would point you to just the fact that all this we have here can never have come to be by chance!

My faith has never hindered me from accepting facts, my religion does not make me anti-science, Islam lets me know the limits, and not to let the little knowledge I have becloud my sense of reasoning and judgment.

If you call my believe in knowing everything after death, which is certain for everyone, as faith, then I can also call your believe in science telling you the answers yet to be known someday which is unknown as faith!

While I am waiting, you also are waiting (in what we believe)...It is as simple as that

tintingz:
Bla bla bla... I'm tired going circle with you.

The link you provided is a christian motivated/affiliated, responding to it is a waste of time as I've read many articles concerning science, did you read the link I provided about evolution? it is not opening? Dont worry i will post out the link write ups. you expect me to read an anti-evolutionary article that is twisted.

And the funniest thing is that, science is very broad and important that rreligious people are using science to prove their claims and to find fault in science itself. How funny.

They forgot that science is base on questioning and theories.

Science have provide evidence to humans questions but you on the other hand you haven't provide just one single evidence, you're just going circle like hula hoop.

And lastly, I don't have faith in science, I find science to be a gift for humans, a gift that makes humans to think and solve their questions and problems.

We are not going in circles, you may go back and read how our conversation had moved to this point, which is, evidences for evolution, especially that of man.

While I admit I didn’t read your links initially, I always provide a quote to help buttress my points, I do not just point you to a link without quoting what I deem useful to our discussion…

Be that as it may, I eventually was able to access the link (and thank you for quoting the article again), and it was an interesting read, unfortunately, the summary of the whole article was that, evolution is a fact, while the mechanism that tries to explain evolution, are basically theories which are being proposed by different individuals, and which research would keep giving us clues to what maybe right or wrong as the case may be. Furthermore, what makes evolution a fact is that there are no other viable process that can be convincingly explained or stand critical examination.

What is most amusing is that, evolution itself is not standing the critical examination thus far! This is what you believers in evolution say, evolution is a fact! There are proof of previous life, from fossils and we are able to estimate the age of earth and some of these fossils, although we do not know how these changes occurred, how the transitions came about, or what brought about life itself, we are still searching for answers…While I as a Muslim say, Allah (SWT) is the creator of everything, He sent down the evidence in form of a book called the Qur’an, The creator is the All Knower, the Sublime, I am not searching for any other answers, I know why I am here, and I know what happens after I die…I can also say the Qur'an is a fact! and the historical evidence for it is overwhelming, not to mention the impossibility of a desert dwelling Arab, to produce such a book with scientific facts in it...

While trying to propose the facts of evolution, a quote was presented, which I believe is useful here:

It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.
- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

I was expecting an incontrovertible evidence to buttress that evolution is fact, but I was very disappointed.

Except for the bold, there happens to be no issue at all, nothing suggests evolution about those facts, even when you consider the bold, what Islam says is that we are from Adam (AS), a previously existing man, thus, our life arose from a previously existing life, but when it comes to the statement that humans arose from nonhumans, that is where I demand proofs! And so far, the evidences for this are not substantiated; they are conflicting, and even confusing, then why should I or anyone believe that?! I have mentioned that I do not have issues with facts, it is the assumptions and unsubstantiated theories are what I cannot accept! All what the fossils suggest are different creatures, the relationships being proposed by these evolutionists, are basically their personal theories, thoughts and assumptions about these creatures!

You said you do not want to be ignorant, so you wouldn’t believe Allah (SWT) created us, but you easily accept and believe the theories and assumptions from men who themselves acknowledge that they do not know the answers yet (but hope someday, they would), if that is not faith, then what is it?!

tintingz:
Because they gave reference doesn't mean it can't be twisted, anybody can quote the Quran and twist it meanings. There are christian articles in the reference.

The site you gave is for religious faithed people, they are anti-evolutionary, anti-darwin article. They are trying to link Science with religion which you rejected.

About Center for Science and Culture
http://www.discovery.org/id/about/

Science is not about winning souls or making people to have faith in the study, it is about doing research, experiments which anybody can do.

I've given you a link in my previous post how evolution is fact, you don't expect me to reply that long write ups.

You dismiss a whole article because it has Christian references, and it is anti evolution?! If science to you is not about faith, why are you finding it difficult to read and reflect on contrary views?! You are no different from any religious individual with absolute faith in his/her religion without caring what others have to say. You should learn to be more open-minded.

I do not reject linking science with religion Mister, I even posted a video about scientific facts in the Qur'an! I am against assumptions and unsubstantiated theories...A man said you came from apes, the evidences for this are conflicting and some unsubstantiated, you expect me to take that as a fact?!

Saying that they might have twisted this and that is you finding excuses, I brought out a quote from the whole write up, I did not expect you to refute the whole article, I expected you to have shown the twisting at least from the aspect I had presented here, and prove that evolution of man, is indeed a fact. By the way, the link you presented earlier is not opening... Why not post some of the information here how evolution is a fact?!

tintingz:
Lol, This article was written by some creationist that want to prove an intelligent design created everything in few days, Some Jehova witness-like write ups.

Try again sir.

Science is all about progressive, if there is any gap now that doesn't mean it won't be filled in the future, You claim to study science, haven't you see changes over years after years in all the scientific books you have read?

I'm quite certain the references are not to the bible or Qur'an, but to scientists and scientific journals. The article can easily be referred to as a review, and it is thorough, it pointed out the loop holes and not only the missing gaps, but the contradictions, the assumptions and the impossible claims of evolution. The article is scientific in its approach and was quoting science! Again you should read! I'm sure you just scanned through, counter the claims with facts, not try to attack the author or his affiliations!

If you have faith in evolution, with all the unknowns, the contradictions, the inconsistencies, the trials and errors, the assumptions and theories, and you are willing to defend it come rain come sun, when all you have is just hope that someday scientists would solve some of thiese issues, why do you find it difficult to have faith in Allah and the Qur'an which doesn't change?!

tintingz:
@ sino

Until you show me evidences of your fairytale assumptions then will I take this discussion serious, I think I will stick to albaqir advice.

All well and good, since you hold scientific explanation in very high esteem with regards to the origin of man and the supposed evidences that supports your believe in evolution, let me share something with you, and I’ll like for you to read the whole article, and reflect accordingly.

Human Origins and the Fossil Record

Indeed, the public is commonly told that there are fossils documenting the evolution of humans from ape-like precursors, but a closer look at the technical literature tells a different story. Hominid fossils generally fall into one of two groups: ape-like species and human-like species, with a large, unbridged gap between them. In 2004, the famed evolutionary biologist Ernst Mayr recognized the abrupt appearance of humans:

The earliest fossils of Homo, Homo rudolfensis and Homo erectus, are separated from Australopithecus by a large, unbridged gap. How can we explain this seeming saltation? Not having any fossils that can serve as missing links, we have to fall back on the time-honored method of historical science, the construction of a historical narrative.92

In light of such evidence, a paper in the Journal of Molecular Biology and Evolution called the appearance of Homo sapiens "a genetic revolution" where "no australopithecine species is obviously transitional."93 The lack of fossil evidence for this hypothesized transition is confirmed by Harvard paleoanthropologists Daniel E. Lieberman, David R. Pilbeam, and Richard W. Wrangham:

Of the various transitions that occurred during human evolution, the transition from Australopithecus to Homo was undoubtedly one of the most critical in its magnitude and consequences. As with many key evolutionary events, there is both good and bad news. First, the bad news is that many details of this transition are obscure because of the paucity of the fossil and archaeological records.94

As for the "good news," they still admit: "although we lack many details about exactly how, when, and where the transition occurred from Australopithecus to Homo, we have sufficient data from before and after the transition to make some inferences about the overall nature of key changes that did occur."95 In other words, the fossil record provides ape-like australopithecines ("before", and human-like Homo ("after", but not fossils documenting a transition between them. In the absence of intermediates, we're left with "inferences" of a transition based strictly upon the assumption of Darwinian evolution. One commentator proposed the evidence implies a "big bang theory" of the appearance of our genus Homo.96 This does not make for a compelling evolutionary account of human origins.97

Rather than showing gradual Darwinian evolution, the history of life shows a pattern of explosions where new fossil forms come into existence without clear evolutionary precursors. Evolutionary anthropologist Jeffrey Schwartz summarizes the problem:


[W]e are still in the dark about the origin of most major groups of organisms. They appear in the fossil record as Athena did from the head of Zeus -- full-blown and raring to go, in contradiction to Darwin's depiction of evolution as resulting from the gradual accumulation of countless infinitesimally minute variations. . ."98

This poses a major challenge to Darwinian evolution, including the view that all animals are related through common ancestry.

As suggested, you should read the whole article Here

@tintingz, the evidence I have is the Qur'an, it is a fact and not an assumption! Allah the creator of heavens and the earth, placed in it what he deemed important so that we may connect with Him, all other information not in it or authentically narrated by the Prophet ( SAW ) which Allah sent, are not important in acknowledging His sovereignty, and His worthiness of worship. Allah SWT says you should reflect and think; when you look at the heavens and the earth, and even when you look at your own self, do you think for a moment that the supreme creator is limited by anything which limits us like time and space for you to question His timing and how He populated the world just from two humans?! But again, you believe that we came to being from a singular cell, of which it coming about is unknown to you, and the whole living creation came from this singular cell! This process is so sketchy and confusing, that evolutionists keep churning different hypotheses and theories debunking earlier held beliefs, theories and hypotheses...

Scientists are even confused on how life came on earth, the theories and hypotheses proposed were all unsubstantiated! This does not tell you anything at all? So until Qur'an mentions the number of children Adam had, and the name of the wife Cain married, that is when you would accept it is a fact or acknowledge the truth found in it?!

The fact that we are here, and we reproduce to beget more offsprings which can either be male or female, is enough to show that Adam and Eve gave birth to female and male children! It is a no brainer...it is a fact, that is what happens when we reproduce sexually, saying the Qur'an didn't mention female children is silly, since Qur'an had already stated we are all children of Adam and Eve, and we are either male or female! The number of children cannot be counted, because according to the Qur'an, we are still the children of Adam, and until the end of the world, there would be more children of Adam.

I am sure you know we all would die some day, and your almighty science is yet to unravel this mystery, and stop the process of ageing or dieng, then we all would know who is on the right path and who isn't. Religions generally provides answers to a fundamental question, which is what is our purpose on this earth, it would be foolhardy to believe there is a supreme being, who created us, and then left us without informing us why he created us and what are our obligations to Him. And of course, the choice is yours, you can believe in whatever you want, be it science, Buddha or even nothing, but how would you know it is the right choice?!

I would suggest that RABIUSHILE04 should edit the topic by adding "some"....

I personally had read a book by a Sufi which was tailored to the Qur'an and sunnah, not to mention the fact the the author criticised the practices of those ignorants who claim to be Sufis. Sufism is not the issue, it is the practices introduced by the people who are ignorant or those exploiting the ignorance of the laymen that is the real issue.

AlBaqir:
^^Really you have time for this guy. Discussing with him is a waste of time.

Says AlBaqir who intends to smuggle evolution into the Qur'an

You haven't answered my question o, how did Allah create Adam through evolution from the Qur'an?

tintingz:
Bla bla bla, so Cain marriage is an irrelevant issue? I will never live in ignorance anymore. Many religious people don't even ask this question, they don't even know answers to the question, all we read are assumptions.

You've already failed an argument if you say(Cain marriage is irrelevant). Cain marriage is very important when it comes to how people came to be not only about Adam and Eve.

There are different assumptions of how he got a wife, some said cain fought Abel to marry his sister, some said Cain went to the land of Nod near Eden to marry which raise the question "are people already existing in the land".? The Quran nor the bible didn't clear this, where Cain got a wife.

You claim that evolution theories are assumptions that the long duration of years for humans to evolve is impossible but you accepted that Adam, Eve and their children procreates within some few years. The thing is there are no evidence to the former.

Science is all about questioning, observing, discoveries experiments. There are evidence of hairy early humans, there are evidence of signs and symbols on walls by early humans, there are evidence of dinosaurs, there are evidence of astroids etc. The ones you called assumptions are observations and science are still doing research and experiments, and they are making progress.

The question you haven't answer is who did Cain marry and how many children did Adam had?

I just explained to you what the Qur'an is about, I don't know why you keep telling about a story not recorded in the Qur'an. I askee you a question, is it not possible that Adam gave birth to female children? We know the result of a sexual reproduction is either male or female. This suffices to show that these offsprings of Adam, continued mating and reproducing!

You said you do not want to be ignorant, but you cannot even differentiate facts from assumptions and speculations of men! How did life came about on this earth? Is there any fact from science/evolution with regards to this? You always amuse me, also what is the purpose of man on this earth? Any scientific facts?

Islam had already explained why we were created and our purpose on earth, the origin of life, and the ultimate end. The marriage of Cain adds no value to my accepting that we were all created by Allah (SWT), and to Him is our final return. The Qur'an alone is proof of the existence of a creator, and once that is acknowledged, then His words are the absolute truth!

If you cannot explain life on earth with science, and you believe that all living creatures on earth came to being by a process which cannnot be explained, and that a unicellular organism was formed and evolved through time, to give rise to what we have now, then why is it difficult for you to believe that we all came from Adam and Eve ?!

Secondly you are waiting for science to still find the answers to a lot of unknowns, of which the exact date thst would happen is unknown, and you claim you don't want to be ignorant?! Compare to one who has acknowledged the existence of the creator, submitted to the creator, believes in the words of the creator about life on earth and looks forward to meeting the creator after death! Who is the ignorant? Do you know the probability of this earth being a result of chance?

Cain married a woman, and Adam had numerous children!

tintingz:
You're dodging the question.

Why didn't the Quran mention who Cain married to?Where does it mention any female children? Why didn't the Quran clear the gap once and for all. The bible gave more details but it fails to answer the question and even cause confusion and debate among bible followers.

The thing is it is a Jewish story(book).

You know the Quran is silent about some things but when science gave answers to some things you reject it because it doesn't flow with your ideology.

I thought you make fun of science being an assumption study.

What a confused, illogical individual.

If the question about who Cain married, is the question, then I have already answered that in my previous post.

You didn't watch the video, and you still don't get it!

Qur'an is silent on irrelevant issues! What would it benefit you to know who the children of Adam (AS) married?! Does the information help you in being a better Muslim?! The Qur'an is a Book of guidance! There are scientific facts, and historical facts in it, but it is not a book of science or history, it is meant to guide you to your creator! If you want every details to be in the Qur'an, do you know how big that would be and how complicated it would have been to the people 1400 years ago?!

The Professor in the video did talk about facts in the Qur'an, which is quite impossible to know by the Arabs or anyone in the world 1400 years ago, that is something to reflect on and suffices as reasons to believe.

I do not place scientific assumptions above clear Qur'anic verses and authentic narrations, not everything in scientific journals are scientific facts or true, I have written papers were in my discussion proposed ideas (theories) that were possible cause for a divergent result from what was reported by other scientist, of course such theories would have to be tested, and the results may lead to another theory, or hypotheses, these are the research gaps that further the cause of research. Furthermore, some scientific research that has to do with evolution, origin of man etc. are basically ideas of the proponents, based on no real evidences, except for few observable natural phenomena, which may be very wrong. If you had a good background in science, and understood the scientific method properly, you wouldn't be arguing this with me! There is a difference between theories and facts...

Note, I never made fun of science, I only made fun of you guys for believing in the assumptions of scientists (e.g. Yawning is for cooling the brain), and claiming them to be facts, and the trying to correlate evolution with Islam...

tintingz:
As a researcher and a logical person I believe in pre-Adamite because the question will be "How did Cain got a wife"?

Even in Christian beliefs there is still a debate who Cain married to, his sister? Because according to bible Cain went to another land(Land of Nod) after killing his brother. Are people already existing in this land? some christians believe Cain got a wife in the Land of Nods.

There are still questions religion need to answer.

And don't think I will buy the fairytale story of twin sisters born with Adam sons.

Is it not possible that after the birth of the male children, Adam and Eve gave birth to female children?! I do not doubt the fact that there was life on earth before Adam (AS), what the Qur'an says is that Allah (SWT) created Adam and Eve for the earth and created them perfect, and all things on earth and in the heavens were created subservient to Man! When the Qur'an is silent on some issues, or there are no authentic information from the narrations, it clearly means the knowledge about such things are not necessary for our salvation. For example, asking how Adam and Eve populated the world, what suffices is that we are descendants of these two, and that can be proven clearly from the Qur'an.

Islam clearly identifies that the first man and woman were Adam and Eve, and Allah (SWT) created them. In fact Allah (SWT) stated clearly he created Adam from the soil, and from all references, it did not happen on this earth. So evolution, in terms of origin of man, does not correlate with Islam.

I was expecting AlBaqir, to come up with some theories, but I guess he is still doing some further research...

Anyway, below is a video of a Professor interviewed on the Deen Show, The first 6 minutes thereabout explains some of my objections on this thread, and my opinions with regards to science and Islam.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSHXuZgbeRQ&t=1538s

Allah (SWT) says:

"Do ye not see that Allah has subjected to your (use) all things in the heavens and on earth, and has made his bounties flow to you in exceeding measure, (both) seen and unseen? Yet there are among men those who dispute about Allah, without knowledge and without guidance, and without a Book to enlighten them!" (Qur'an 31: 20)

AlBaqir:
SCIENCE AND RELIGION

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." So said Albert Einstein.

# Quran talks about human originating from one source.

# And it further says variations in color and tongue is for the purpose of knowing each other.

# Allah however concludes that the best in His sight are the pious.

* Surah al-Hujurat: 13

Basically, this is faith based evidence which might be proven philosophically. However, science has done a fantastic job verifying technologically, this:

# All man originate from a man.

# All other forms of skin colors originated from black African skin.

How will you feel if a Chinese for example trace his root back to your family e.g in Ijebu @ Empiree

tintingz nko?

@Bold, Science or Geneticists as well as Evolutionists do not claim that humans as we know it came from just 2 people or “one man”i.e Adam (and Eve) , as stated in the Qur’an and Bible, in fact, it is said to be highly unlikely, not to mention the fact that there were other humans during the periods of these scientific Adam (y-chromosomal Adam) and Eve (Mitochondrial Eve) and it is even stated that these two probably did not live together nor mate together!Source This is indeed contrary to what can be found in the Qur’an. Another discrepancy is the years in which some of these ancestral humans were said to have lived, while a report suggests about 135,000 years ago, another report states over 500,000 years ago Source, not to mention the discovery of another human (although primitive), over 2 million years ago Source, these reports would be in conflict with what is known in the religious circles, except you want to state that Allah (SWT) had created other humans before Adam and Eve (remember, these two were not primitive)…This would have to be substantiated from the Qur’an clearly. Also, the Qur’an states clearly that the creation of Adam and Eve was not here on earth, therefore I wonder how you want to reconcile these divergent views…The pertinent questions that needs answers are, when did Allah (SWT) created Adam (AS)? And when was he on earth with Eve? Do you have the answers AlBaqir?! Or you believe what science says, that modern humans evolved from primitive humans (more than 2) here on this earth?!

Empiree:
Toor....you do have point. But for the fact that he is the only one wearing yellow shoes amongst others could mean coincidence Either way, me no sabi that kind ahadith from both "SuShia". The good news is those ahadith are statements of their scholars not divine statement of nabi(SAW)

Yes it might have been a coincidence, and actually I did present another picture of another Shi'a leader, also putting on a yellow shoe. you are right that those narrations were never from the Prophet (SAW), and were also never from the ahl-l-bayt. It should be noted that the Shi'a hadiths are not from just ordinary scholars, they are said to be narrated from the supposed infallible Imams, since the Shi'as for the greater part of their history, believed these narrations to be the ultimate truth, my question to AlBaqir is, were those ayatollah and their followers of the past (the Shi'a of the past), misguided?! How and why were they not able to apply the "new" methodology of rejecting narrations, does this not cast a big doubt on their religion?! One other issue is that, you would never see AlBaqir quote any of their scholars who had rejected these narrations and called them fabrications, even to quote a modern day scholar, you no go see! Do Shi'as not have scholars of hadith?! I am still waiting for him to bring the scholars verdict on the narration in question...

Empiree:
They accept refugees or not, Muslim countries collectively are a failure to their people.

They should be the one more vocal at accepting refugees rather than the West.

Any wonder why refugees turned to the West for santuary instead of their brethren?.

We had to protest refugees ban for them to be welcomed in the US whereas Allah says that His earth has space. These refugees would come to the US and some of them convert to their fake religion bcuz of our failures.

Either way, Muslim countries are not doing enough whatsoever. I'm not gonna defend any of them blindly. Some of them go as far as helping kufar bomb their fellow Muslim countries. What a shame!

If not that Americans stand with Muslims on this, I'm sure crazy Christians would be saying " but Muslims are not allowed to seek residence in the land of kufar".

It is high time for them to put their sectarian differences aside and do the needful. They should be the ones making noise about accepting refugees. Not the West.

But Turkey and Jordan, which are majority Muslim countries, or we can call them Muslim countries, accepted the highest percentage of refugees, and they are not making any noise about it, not to mention the following information from huffingtonpost:

"With Saudi Arabia’s non-signatory status, the Syrians residing in Saudi Arabia are classified as “Arab brothers and sisters in distress” instead of refugees covered by UN treaties. According to Nabil Othman, the UNHCR regional representative to the Gulf region, there were 500,000 Syrian refugees in Saudi Arabia at the time of his statement. The government itself of Saudi Arabia has stated that it has, over the past five years since the start of the conflict hosted 2.5 million refugees."

Source

I think you have been swayed by the mainstream media to believe contrary to the facts on ground.

The words of the Prophet (SAW) are always true, the narration which states we should obey the leader is very instructive, Yorubas would say, “ti owo eni o ba te iku ida, ko kin bere iku to pa baba re” that is, when you are not capable to defend yourself, you don’t go inquiring what killed your father...Well that is a story for another day... As it is already established, revolt, protests, uprising, civil disobedience etc., is frowned at in Islam. Of course there are other views that accept peaceful protest with guidelines, some of which are as follows:

1. They shall not be accompanied by any Haraam activity such as violence, disrupting the peace, vandalism, coercion of unwilling people to participate by threats of violence, damage to persons or property, music, dancing, vulgarity, rowdy and uncouth behaviour, hindering the safe movement of non-participants or any other act that is un-Islamic in nature. All of the above acts are incorrect. In all of the above cases, support is being shown to others who are oppressed, but by the above acts, the protestor is 'oppressing' his own soul in the process. The protestor's activity should not become a manifestation of "Rabbana zalamna anfusana - O Allah, we have indeed oppressed ourselves." The organisers of these protest events have a greater responsibility to take the necessary measures that none of the above things take place, by arranging marshals and so on.

2. It shall not lead to the neglect of one's primary responsibilities such as proper fulfillment of Salaah on its time, or a student neglecting his studies, or an employee neglecting his work duty unless permission is sought from the employer

3. The act of expressing protest must not be considered as the end-all and be-all of a Muslim's responsibility towards the oppressed. Such an attitude needs revision. Rather, it should be regarded as a means for greater involvement in the struggle against oppression. Muslims should never allow themselves to get ensnared in the deceptive thinking that by merely joining a protest event or two, they have truly fulfilled their duty towards the oppressed.

4. On the point of burning flags and effigies, caution must be exercised in not allowing the main issues from becoming obscured or covered. For example, at certain protest events, flags (and effigies) of countries that are friendly towards an oppressive regime are also burnt. From a strategic point of view, this may not be the ideal form of protest. Citizens of those nations, who may not fully understand the rationale behind this, will not take kindly to watching their country's flag being burnt. Driven by a spirit of patriotism, they may in turn develop negative attitudes towards the oppressed people. This is counter-productive to the purpose of the protest, which was supposed to have influenced public opinion and not the other way around. The focus must therefore be kept primarily on the oppressor and must not shift away from the actual villains towards their supporters and sympathisers. It is observed that some protest events unwittingly fall into this trap.

Source
Now coming to the Nigerian protest, aside the fact that it may not necessarily abide by the above guidelines, the questions are, after the protest, what next?! "You" said it is peaceful protest, would sending a delegation to table your issues with this government not achieve the same result or even better?! A protest can easily turn into chaos, and loss of lives and properties, is that what we want?! If you say the government does not listen, do you think they would listen to you if you are doing a peaceful protest, inside the national stadium, and every other Nigerian is going about his or her own business?! If we shut down Nigeria, in the name of protest, who would lose?! Is it the masses who are already finding it hard to survive and have no food at home except for his daily hustling, or the politician, who has enough food for a month in his store house?!

Islam is a practical religion; there is wisdom behind every statement of the Prophet (SAW). During Abacha's regime, why didn't people protest?! What would have happened to those calling for protest?! What would have happened if people gathered and started protesting against his regime?! Someone cited the Arab spring, so self-immolation is something laudable and worthy to emulate?! And how has it helped the people so far?! Is the success of changing leadership comparable to the civil wars, loss of lives and properties?! Are the countries that successfully overthrew their government living in Eldorado? Did it not all start with a "peaceful" protest?!

Now none of these protesters are giving practical solutions to our problems, everyone is looking up to the government to do the magic, I don't know when complaining about a problem is a solution to the problem, do you think the government doesn’t know that things are bad?! Is this government not doing anything at all?! We are in recession! Youths are unemployed, we do not have electricity! We have security challenges! Things are now expensive! etc. Yeah that is what we are going to go shout, then what next?!

What I am trying to say is, if we want quick "change", we need a revolution, an uprising, and that does not guarantee success, and a wonderful life afterwards, and the fact that peaceful protest would be an unnecessary waste of everybody's time and energy and may lead to chaos, when a delegation, representing the masses, would be better off. And also if those who are in power do not give a damn ([b]men whose hearts will be hearts of devils in the bodies of men!), [/b]and you insist on protesting continuously which would definitely escalate, they would unleash mayhem on you the citizenry such that you would beg on your knees for it to stop, then you would know the wisdom behind seeking better ways to effect a positive change and seeking the face of your Creator!

If you are in doubt, ask the people of Syria!

We have 2 more years to tolerate this government, of which I am positive that things would become better by then in sha Allah, and if not, we can always vote for another change, except, the fact remains that we as a people are not sincere with what we really want and clamoring for.

“Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.”
(Q 13:11)

Change Starts with YOU!!!

Empiree:
Sino is being blocked I think

I thought the anti-spam bot had repented from banning ni o!

AlBaqir:
^^^ sino, please try again later. What you posted is from letmeturnthetable.com

# The guy basically ignores the commentaries of the hadith by his own scholars, especially Ibn Hajar in Fath al-Bari.
He was 1080 inches tall in heaven, and retained the same height on earth. There are plenty of reports about this in Tarikh Tabari.


# Anyway, if the population translations are wrong, why do they agree with what is in Fath al-Bari which is regarded as the Sunni best commentary of Sahih Bukhari?

# https://islamqa.info/en/20612
This Wahhabi website ^also affirms the popular understanding of the hadith.

The author quoted scholars, are they Shi'as or Sunnis?! By the way, I'm sure you do not know the affiliations of the author. Ibn Hajar (rahimahullah) was indeed a respectable scholar, he was not infallible like your Imams who said wearing yellow shoes "strengthen your pen!s", his statement was basically his own understanding, it is not binding, since the narration clearly states that this height was in heaven, and didn't say that the height was also the same on earth! In fact, the two narrations clearly were talking about heaven/paradise and not earth...Hence, the translation and understanding of the scholars presented by the author, appears to be more accurate.

Secondly, Islamqa made their own argument as expressed in the following quote:

"The Muslim is obliged to believe in every idea for which there is evidence in the Qur’aan or saheeh Sunnah from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “I believe in Allaah and in that which came from Allaah in the sense meant by Allaah. I believe in the Messenger of Allaah and in what came from the Messenger of Allaah in the sense meant by the Messenger of Allaah.” See al-Irshaad Sharh Lam’at al-I’tiqaad, p. 89."

To simply put, we believe in the authentic words of Allah (SWT) and that of the Prophet (SAW) as the absolute truth, the way Allah (SWT) and the Prophet (SAW) meant them, if we are able to understand them, and explain them, all well and good, and we also believe, as long as it has been established to be authentic, even if we cannot explain or understand them.

An example is the statement of Allah (SWT) that He created the heavens and the earth in six days. This is quite difficult to explain, when science is saying that a planet takes 1 - 10 million years to form. We can say that only Allah (SWT) knows what he meant by six days, we cannot reject such statement, because we do not understand, or because science is saying that it is quite impossible! It is even more dangerous to base your rejection on science, because tomorrow, science may say, due to new research and findings, it is "possible" that the earth was formed in less than what was previously stated and another debate ensues...

AlBaqir:


You are most welcome brother. Have you ever consider this:

According to Sunnism, Prophet Adam (alaih salam) and his immediate descendants were 1,080 inches tall. The tallest man alive today, Sultan Kosen (from Turkey) is 99 inches tall. This change in height happened within 8000 years.

This is what one can call super-evolution. There has never been anything like it in all history. Besides, 8000 years is too short for the kind of genetic mutations required for such changes.

Besides, due to the extremely slow mutation rates in humans, if truly Prophet Adam was 1,080 inches tall 8000 years ago, we all today would also be 1,080 inches tall.

Mutation rates are extremely slow and usually happen over hundreds of thousands of years, sometimes even millions of years
It is interesting that Sunnis reject the scientific theory of evolution, but accept an evolution model that is based on unrealistic mutation rates.

Empiree, Rilwaynee001, lanrexlan

Hadith about height of Adam and later generations explained

نشرت بواسطة: Waqar Akbar Cheema 10:47 PM في 60 , adam , bukhari , cubits , decreasing , Hadith , Height , sixty , stature 7 تعليقات
بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم الحمد لله وحده و الصلاة و السلام على من لا نبي بعده و على آله و أصحابه أجمعين
Here is a brief response to two objections on hadith for allegedly contradicting historical and related information; i.e. Adam's height of 60 cubits and about relation between the height of successive human generations.

Some have raised questions about hadith description of Adam’s height and statement about the height of his progeny.

The hadith goes as:

عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه، عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم، قال: " خلق الله آدم وطوله ستون ذراعا، ثم قال: اذهب فسلم على أولئك من الملائكة، فاستمع ما يحيونك، تحيتك وتحية ذريتك، فقال السلام عليكم، فقالوا: السلام عليك ورحمة الله ، فزادوه: ورحمة الله، فكل من يدخل الجنة على صورة آدم، فلم يزل الخلق ينقص حتى الآن "


The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.(Sahih Bukhari, Book 55 Hadith 543)

Two points are important here:

1. Adam’s height

2. Relation between the heights of successive human generations

It is said that historic information contends against both these assertions.

We deal the two briefly below;

1. Height of Adam:

The height of Adam was sixty cubits according to this hadith but other hadith reports clarify that it was so in the heavens.

عن أبي هريرة رضي الله عنه، قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: «إن أول زمرة يدخلون الجنة على صورة القمر ليلة البدر، ثم الذين يلونهم على أشد كوكب دري في السماء إضاءة، لا يبولون ولا يتغوطون، ولا يتفلون ولا يمتخطون، أمشاطهم الذهب، ورشحهم المسك، ومجامرهم الألوة الأنجوج، عود الطيب وأزواجهم الحور العين، على خلق رجل واحد، على صورة أبيهم آدم، ستون ذراعا في السماء

Allah's Apostle said, "The first group of people who will enter Paradise, will be glittering like the full moon and those who will follow them, will glitter like the most brilliant star in the sky. They will not urinate, relieve nature, spit, or have any nasal secretions. Their combs will be of gold, and their sweat will smell like musk. The aloes-wood will be used in their centers. Their wives will be houris. All of them will look alike and will resemble their father Adam (in statute), sixty cubits tall in the heavens."

(Sahih Bukhari, Book 55 Hadith 544) Commonly used translation misses the translation of the last two words in the original- highlighted in red in Arabic above. See Ustadha Aisha Bewley’s translation, Hadith 3149 HERE

Scholars like Imam Abu al-‘Abbas al-Qurtubi [1] and lately Shaykh Anwar Shah al-Kashmiri [2] have said that it means the inmates of Paradise will have the height of their father Adam who was sixty cubits in the heavens.

This clarifies the first point that Adam’s height was 60 cubits in the Paradise according to this hadith and it does not say anything about his height after he landed on this planet. More on it follows under the next point.

2. Relation between the heights of successive human generations

The hadith also has the following statement towards its end;

فكل من يدخل الجنة على صورة آدم، فلم يزل الخلق ينقص حتى الآن
Normally it is translated as;


“Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.”

It is said that “ancient records or the fossil beds” do not support any such assertion. While that may be true we need to see if the hadith has been understood the right way in the first place?

Some scholars actually contend that it does not even mean this in the first place. Commenting on the highlighted phrase, one of the greatest scholars of our day, Mufti Taqi Usmani states:

ليس معناه أن قامات الناس لم تزل تنقص في كل قرن، بل المراد أن الجسم الإنسان لم يزل ناقصاً بعده. ويؤخذ هذا مما قدمناه عن شيخ مشايخنا الكشميري رحمه الله أن ستين ذراعاً إنما كانت مقدار قامة آدم عليه السلام في الجنّة، فلما نزل عنها عاد إلى القصر، ولم يزل أبناؤه يولدون بقرب من هذه القامة إلى يومنا الآن، وإنما يرجعون إلى أصل قامتهم حينما يعودون إلى الجنّة. فقوله عليه السلام: "لم يزل ينقص": معناه: أنه لم يزل يولد ناقصاً، والله سبحانه وتعالى أعلم

“It does not mean the height of people has not ceased decreasing with every generation, rather it means the human body has not ceased to be imperfect thereafter. This is taken from what has reached us from the teacher of our teachers (Anwar Shah) al-Kashmiri, may Allah have mercy on him, that sixty hands was the height of Adam in the Paradise and when he fell from it he became short and to this day of ours his children have not ceased to be on almost the same (short) height. And they will return to their original height when they go back to Paradise. So the saying of Prophet (May peace be upon him), "they have not stopped being short" means that have they not stopped being born imperfect i.e. on the same short height. Allah the Perfect and Almighty knows best!” [3]

Simply put in the Paradise Adam’s height was 60 cubits however on Earth it was reduced from its original perfect height and it continues that way to this day. However, when humans will eventually return to Paradise they will attain the same height.

This not only gives the plain and unproblematic interpretation of the last phrase it also tells us that Adam’s height seized to be 60 cubits after his landing on the Earth.

Indeed Allah knows the best!

-- by Waqar Akbar Cheema


________________________________________
[1] Al-Qurtubi, Abu al-Abbas, al-Mufhim lima Ashkala fi Talkhis Kitab Muslim, 23/45
[2] Al-Kashmiri, Anwar Shah, Fayd al-Bari, Vol.6 p.5
[3] Usmani, Muhammad Taqi, Takmila Fath al-Mulhim, Vol.6, p.158

It is instructive to note that the author of the above article falls back on scholars in the religion, not just being extremely arrogant and claiming to be more intelligent and rational. Well, as the Yorubas would say, “imo loladinni, ogbon ori o gbe” loosely translated to “Islam is a religion of knowledge, not personal opinion/intellect”.

AlBaqir:
^^
I trust you will try your best to twist and untwist the hadith. The comment under review is on the hadith of Abu Hurayrah who says:

# "Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure) . People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation".

How could you say the comment under review is on the hadith, when you clearly also quoted that "This has already been explained before in the chapter on the attributes of Paradise." And I brought what the Sheikh intended from his own explanation in the same book! Na wa o!

AlBaqir:

How does Adam looks like which will make everybody that will enter Jannah turned exactly like him before he can be allowed to enter Jannah?

Adam (AS) is the first human, I am sure you know Allah (SWT) created him and his wife perfect, I guess it is now wrong for us all to return to such perfection after gaining Allah's pleasure.

AlBaqir:

# If Quran says on that day " some faces (not skin) will be bright" and "some faces (not skin) will be dark". What does that mean? Its simply expression of "felicity and doomness" respectively. Even here on earth due to different circumstances, all human express "bright and red faces".

How nice of you to indicate it wasn't skin Allah (SWT) was referring to, I would ask, I guess there is no skin on our faces, and perhaps it is ok if a racist call you black face?! I was also wondering where you got your translation of skin from the Sheikh's commentary, but anyway, the Sheikh had already made clarification by pointing us to another narration that captured what was intended, which was basically illumination and lack of it, as the case may be!

I forgot to even ask, how does a black man show bright and red faces?! or how does a black man show a dark face?!

AlBaqir:

#Am afraid, all the stories you brought up doesn't add up. In fact according to your hadith the " black descendants " of Adam are destined for hell. And "white descendants" are destined for Paradise while at creation and the Lord says, "I do not care" on that selection.

LOL, you seem desperate, bringing up the same issue that had already been put to rest. Why not rewrite the narration again, this time, write nigga descendants. I asked you a question on the thread where you were adequately refuted, are you as black as a charcoal a reference made in the narration in question?!

AlBaqir:

# Any hadith or comment you see in shia book that promote racism which no doubt contradict Quran and the Sunnah of Nabi is 100% fabrication. The world await you to say the same with your hadiths rather than twisting what is untwist able.

You do not have any authentic narration! I gave you a challenge in the other thread, I guess you are still doing your research ...We have a process, we do not just reject narration on silly premises, and furthermore, our scholars are sound from the earliest to the modern, they carry out due diligence in authenticating narrations. It is not the job of any tom dick and harry to reject an hadith, when knowledge seems a strange phenomenon to such people.

^^^Jazakallahu khayran for sharing bro, you guys are inspiring my artistic side sleeping for a while now to wake up! I must write something very soon in sha Allah!

AlBaqir:


You can download Fath al-Barr from this website:
https://archive.org/download/WAQfbssb/fbssb06.pdf

Check page 423 especially. However I have attached the screenshots of the page and the front page.

Many thanks for the page number and link, but I have my own Fath Al-Baariy...

Now the Shiekh stated in his commentary that the issue with regards to the image of which people of Jannah would enter paradise is further explained in the chapter (Attributes of Paradise). While trying to see the Sheikh describe how black skin is a defect so as to qualify him as a racist, all I found was the below in the aforementioned chapter:

- حَدِيثُ أَبِي هُرَيْرَة فِي صِفَة أَهْل الْجَنَّة أَوْرَدَهُ مِنْ طَرِيقَيْنِ ، وَقَدْ ذَكَرَهُ مِنْ طَرِيق ثَالِثَة سَيَأْتِي فِي هَذَا الْبَاب أَيْضًا ، وَقَدْ ذَكَرَ بَعْضه فِي صِفَة آدَم مِنْ وَجْه رَابِع .

قَوْلُهُ : ( صُورَتهمْ عَلَى صُورَة الْقَمَر لَيْلَة الْبَدْر )
أَيْ فِي الْإِضَاءَة ، وَسَيَأْتِي بَيَان ذَلِكَ فِي الرِّقَاق بِلَفْظِ " يَدْخُل الْجَنَّة مِنْ أُمَّتِي سَبْعُونَ أَلْفًا تُضِيء وُجُوههمْ إِضَاءَة الْقَمَر لَيْلَة الْبَدْر " وَفِي الرِّوَايَة الثَّانِيَة هُنَا : " وَالَّذِينَ عَلَى أَثَرهمْ كَأَشَدّ كَوْكَب إِضَاءَة " زَادَ مُسْلِم فِي رِوَايَة أُخْرَى " ثُمَّ هُمْ بَعْد ذَلِكَ مَنَازِل " .

3006- Abu Hurayrah’s narration on the attributes of people of paradise is reported in two ways, and it has been mentioned in a third way, and would be presented in this chapter also, and part of this has also been mentioned in the attribute of Adam (AS) in a fourth way….

His statement: (Their image would be like the image of the full moon), that is, with respect to illumination, and this would be further explained in the chapter of “Mercy” with the statement “ there would be 70,000 Amongst my Ummah who would enter Jannah (paradise) with illuminated faces like that of the moon on the night of a full moon” and also the second narration here: and those after them would have illumination like the intensity of a star” and Muslim went further in another narration, “then after that, ِabodes/houses”

I don’t know that illumination is now related to skin color, and then if it is so, that means the Qur’an is also racist for saying the faces of the disbelievers would be black and those of the righteous would be white!

Allah (SWT) says the interpretation of the meaning:

On the Day when some faces will be (lit up with) white, and some faces will be (in the gloom of) black: To those whose faces will be black, (will be said): "Did ye reject Faith after accepting it? Taste then the penalty for rejecting Faith." (Qur’an 3:106, Yusuf Ali)

Mr AlBaqir, when Allah (SWT) says those going to hell, their faces would be turned into “black”; I guess that is a praiseworthy blackness and not a defect?! By the way, the same words “sa wa da” is used. Again this is said to happen on the Day of Judgment, whereby Allah (SWT) would look at nothing but the deeds of man, I now wonder the correlation with racism? A white man who would enter hell would have his face turned black, and a black man entering paradise would be illuminated, white and bright like that of a full Moon! I guess white men are as white as a full Moon Mr. AlBaqir! Not even forgetting the fact that in another narration, the intensity of your "whiteness" would have to do with your deeds!

Even if we agree (for the sake of irrelevant argument) that it is the skin color that is being referred to in the statement of the Sheikh, so a black man who would enter paradise would be turned to a white man, but his being black in the world did not have any effect on him from entering paradise in the first instance, so what is the big issue about changing your skin to white? Mind you, your age would also be changed; I guess that is discrimination too, because some people would want to claim elders in paradise abi?!

Is there any other statement of the Sheikh that you haven’t shared with us?

Please also note that your own narrations (presented here) as found in your books are quite glaring as being racist, and massively derogatory to black folks, it is quite appalling and I know there is no way you can defend them, other than reject them in totality. I’m sorry, but your books are not comparable to ours, neither is our religion based on excuses nor fabricated narrations…

Empiree:
Now, here is my opinion on this subject. Reason i can't defend "hadith" quoted in your op is

# it is not qola rosul

# there appears to be opinions of scholar(s) within it

# it is effrontery on Black as people

# it doesn't have explanation because , as op emphasized, it appears to be literal and direct

# it is not like those ahadith usually quoted by christians that appears to mock Black or Black people.

^

those ahadith are clearly metaphorical but this one is off. There is nothing to suggest or relate to it metaphorically. Therefore, I am not going to waste my time defending it. The brothers should have brought meaningful explanation to refute op. But so far it is not the case unfortunately. What is quoted in the op is different from the use of "black and white" used in the kitab and sunnah.

Until there is a meaningful explanation for it, it should just be dismissed as hearsay. This doesn't in anyway relegates status of whoever of our scholar(s) said it.

Lastly, it is funny how Shia imam wears yellow sandals.

Looks like egunmoggaji. The related Shia hadith quoted by sino is also guilty of what is quoted in the op. So both sides are actually guilty of racism. There is no other proper way to relate the Shia hadith metaphorically either. We know FOR SURE with no benefit of the doubt that neither Allah nor His nabi(saw) gave preference to any color. The best thing to do is to dismiss these nonsense ahadith as trash.

They are completely different from those ahadith of "qola rusul" except for very tiny ones. So there is no need to try to defend indefensible.

I'm sure President Mugabe would love to see Ayatollah wearing yellow shoes. Would love him more if it was white shoes. For the fact that he's the only one in the picture wearing yellow shoes shows that it is his opinion not general rule.

Empiree, the reason nobody cared about the narration in the OP is because it is a Shi'a narration, they are the "baba isale" of fabrications, you would see how AlBaqir quickly provided a link to claim such narration that is derogatory to blacks can also be found in Sunni books of which he had been adequately refuted on the said thread.

All Shi'a narrations are from the infallibles, the Imams who knew everything, including science, the Shi'a claim they are the ones practicing the true Islam, unfortunately, their books which were authenticated by their earliest scholars, are filled with lies....If your books are filled with fabrications which were not detected by the past scholars, and were the basis of their theology, then on what foundation is your religion?!

If those men putting on yellow shoes were just laymen on the streets, I wouldn't have bothered much. But what a wonderful coincidence isn't it? A narration praising wearing yellow shoes, and then all of a sudden, you see Shi'a religious leaders putting on yellow shoes...With just some big gold chains, rings and sunshades, they could easily go as pimps...

AlBaqir:



It is in Fath al-Barr as stated. However attached is th Arabic text.

Bros, can you state the chapter and page number? I have read through some chapters and I did not find the quote there.

thank you.

AlBaqir:


Sorry bro if you are disappointed. This thread and many other threads of the sane genre are opened for people to learn, contribute and argue in a polite manner. However, some of us are customers of each other. We know each other well well. Some doesn't have any good thing to contribute other than derailing thread, abusing, cursing, calling names etc without rationality. Sometimes if you tried to reason with them and force them to obey rules of mature dialogue, they will never yield. Hence, the only way you can keep them off the loop is to reply them in kind.

Personally, I have once opened a thread on the way forward to mature dialogue: www.nairaland.com/2211625/islamic-approach-dialogue-advice-muslims

And I have pleaded time and again that people should try and compose themselves and follow the rules especially as established in the book of Allah, and the Sunnah of His Prophet. But trust me, "omo ilè niwon. Bo gbewon sori bedi won a jabo".

Welcome to Islam section where sectarianism and fanaticism prevail over sensibility, rationality, good mannerism.

I had once opined you would be very good in acting, the way you script your lies are very creative. By the way, who started the name calling?! the funny thing again is the fact that you agree that you indulge in irrational cacophony, making you no different from the supposed irrational and "omo ile" group of people. Imagine, you claim someone is mad, and then you eventually join him in the madness?! Subhanallah! Very intelligent of you innit?!

As to your rebuttal on yellow shoes, apparently, most of you do not read your books, not to mention that this can also be found on another Shi'a SITE. I quite find the yellow shoes odd, if not that these religious men have read this narration, I wonder what would make any man put on a yellow shoe (well yellow snickers can still fly), perhaps, those religious men are "fashionistas" right?...You would reject anything as long as you are trying to come off as what you are not.

AlBaqir:
^^^
Mr sino,
# Your case is sorry, Mr sino. I have once given you hadith where our Aimmah say it loud and clear that any hadith that contradict the general principles of the Quran or devoid of common sense/intellectual thinking is definitely not from them (even if the chain is Sahih). Do you want me to quote it again perhaps your glasses malfunction then? Shia do not hell-bent as you guys claiming all their ahadith are authentic and accurate. There are loads of fake ahadith in Shi'i books of ahadith. This is one area you fanatics never want to agree with when it comes to your fabricated Bukhari and Muslim.

You mentioned above how you reject narrations, I would have gone back to describe how all your great scholars of the past believed all these narrations as the absolute truth including the yellow shoe "theory", I guess they were "cavemen", and you modern guys are better informed, intelligent and wiser than them...

But let's test your hadith rejection principle...

"The following tradition is recorded in the book Ikmal al-Din wa Itmam al- Ni’ma of Shaykh al-Saduq with a chain that ends at the companion of the Prophet, Jabir bin ‘Abdillah al-Ansari who asked the Prophet (saw) as follows: ‘will the Shi’a benefit from the Qa’im (as) during his concealment?’ He replied: ‘Indeed! By the One who charged me with the office of Prophethood, they will benefit from him and be enlightened by his light and guardianship during his concealment just as mankind benefits from the sun even when the clouds have enveloped it’" (Bihar al-Anwar, volume 52, chapter 20, page number 92)

So Mr. AlBaqir, is the above narration accepted or rejected?! Remember the rules...

1. Does it contradict the general principle of the Qur'an?!
2. Is it devoid of common sense/intellectual thinking?!

Note:
1. The Qaim is said to be in hiding for over 1200 years, there is no where in the Qur'an that we should take guidance from an Imam in hiding, not to mention that the concept of Imamah is not in the Qur'an, references to these 12 personalities is not in the Qur'an, and the general principle in the Qur'an is that only Allah (SWT) guides, and He (SWT) sent Prophets and messengers to guide the people, and again, no where are those who Allah (SWT) send are said to be guiding people from "behind the clouds". Even Jesus Christ (AS) who Allah (SWT) clearly mentions and took alive to the other side, is not said to be guiding anyone, not even his disciples he left, in fact, Jesus (AS) informed them of the coming of another messenger who would guide mankind.

2. Common sense and thinking logically, dictates that it is quite impossible for any human to be alive for that long, it is scientifically impossible, and not to mention the impossibility of receiving guidance from an unseen individual of which his location is unknown. Perhaps we may argue that with the sophistication of technology, perhaps the hiding Imam, may send broadcasts on social media once or twice, so as to keep guiding the misguided Shi'a, but there happens to be nothing from this Imam for over 1200 years, or do you have anything from him?...So one would seriously wonder, what is the function of this Imam in hiding?! How do you get guidance from this unseen individual? Does this make sense?!