Abohboy:
The fact that you think that the Benin Bronzes were made in the 1800s shows your stupidity date of discovery is not the same as date of creation.

And on top of that stupidity you go onto say that there are only 16 pieces of Yoruba bronzes not Ife bronzes but yoruba bronzes which is a blatant lie even if we only concentrate on Ife there are at least more then 30 Ife Bronzes

For context on the relative volume of productions at Ife and at Benin in present-times:

The Ife empire reached its end in the 1400s. As such, all its fluorescence (e.g. bronze production, etc.) also experienced decline from that century all the way to the present time — a continuous decline of about 600 years

The Benin ‘empire’ was about to begin (as an empire) in that period, and so was its bronze production also just beginning in that period. Benin ‘empire’ reached its end at the turn of the 1800s.

As expected, its bronze art production must also have been in decline (compared to its prime years) since 1897 till date; a continues decline of about 100 years.

On one hand, we see a steady decline of 600 years till date for the Ife productions. On the other hand, we see a steady decline of 100 years till date for the Benin productions.

In the light of this background information, it becomes clearer why there are more ongoing productions (and find) in the case of Benin, than ongoing productions (and find) in the case of Ife.

Peace!

Go to my DP for “Yoruba art work” dating to 1365.

And there are countless others. By the way the artifact at my DP was discovered in 1957, not 1938.

You are actually too foolish to be indulged. Almost too foolish to be alive.

Another example is the first attachment below (which shows the Obalufon head) dating to circa 1300.

This was unveiled by the then Ooni (from the Omirin room where it has been kept for centuries) in 1937.

I dare you, @mr1759 to post a picture of one Benin bronze which is remotely close to these Ife bronzes in beauty. I dare you.
————————

PS:
(1) The first discovery of Ife bronze artifacts was NOT in 1938.

(2) The German, Leo Frobenius made his discoveries at Ife in c.1911.

(3) Then followed the finds of 1938 at Wunmonije.

(4) Then followed the finds of 1957 at Ita-Yemoo.

(5) Then followed more finds of artifacts at different Ife sites such as: Obalara, Woye-Asiri, Lafogido, Oke-Eso, etc.

(6) Bronze artifacts have also turned up in other parts of Yorubaland such as Owo, Kwara, as well as Ijebu.

niggadee, Christistruth00, nisai, YungMillionaire, rhektor, theInterpreter, gomojam, Adekunle47, r4bbit

(1) The Oghoni [of Ife] was mentioned by the Benin palace to the Europeans in the 1400s, 1500s, 1600s, etc.

(2) The name Eweka (of Ife) was mentioned by the Benin palace to the Europeans in the 1800s., Etc.

Facts dey pepper dem. Haha

(1) Seventeen (17) different obas are supposed to have ruled Benin kingdom from the 1480s to c.1848.

(2) The Europeans are supposed to have visited Benin kingdom from 1480s to c.1848 and met these obas.

(3) These Europeans produced many writings based on their observations in/near Benin and its palace.

(4) Not a single one of these seventeen (17) obas was mentioned by these Europeans who are supposed to have gone to meet them.

(5) Wonderful! Shall we reason like Benin people and conclude that:

(I) Benin had no kings during the period.

(II) Benin had kings who had no names.

(III) No European visited and it was all lies.

My Benin rags, make una come pick one oo.

Peace!

Regarding Names:

Warning To Binis: You will have to make use of your brain.

A little scratch on the surface of linguistics (etymology and glottochronology in particular) would have left you better guided in this specific regard.

For example (on “etymology”), had there not been the need for the older generations to preserve the story surrounding Eweka’s name; its root and hence its meaning would have been completely lost to us.

Following your logic, we may now then propose that the palace probably originally spoke neither Yoruba nor Edo. This proposition is a wrong one, and we can now confidently say it is wrong only because we are lucky enough to have the traditions surrounding that name preserved and passed down to us.

Furthermore, the outward unintelligibility of certain words, etc. can also be explained from the standpoint of “glottochronology”.

Linguistics have have established the following:

(1) The present-day different dialects of a language (the Yoruba language for example) all used to be one and the same exact singular language the farther back in time you go.

(2) The present-day differentiations in these dialects (of the Yoruba language for example) are the result of (a) natural linguistic evolutions, and (b) novel linguistic innovations, among others.

(3) Linguistic studies have reached the conclusion that the dialects spoken in central Yorubaland is the result of far more linguistic innovations than in other parts of Yorubaland.

As such, many consonant sounds (or even complete words) which have remained preserved/unchanged in the Yoruba frontier areas have been been met with some innovative elision/replacements in central Yorubaland in the course of the centuries.

In the light of this education, it is therefore clear why certain words which used to be present in use in the past by all these people is now lost to some (or even all) of them.

Some words which are similarly slipping away even in our present-times is the word “Oluku” (for “friend”) or “Ogho” (for the city of “Owo”) among many others.

(4) This very linguistic concept is the same that applies between languages (not only within a language).

(5) Linguistics show that the present languages of the Yoruba, Igala, Edo, Idoma, Ebira, Nupe, Kakanda, Igbo, and Gbagyi all differentiated in the very distant past from one and the same very language.

In the light of the foregoing education, what appears to be words intelligible only to the Edos are in reality words which used to be mutually intelligible not only to Edos and Yorubas (but also to others as well), and vice versa.

It only so happens that by the passage of time, many words which the Edos still hold in use (due to the very minimal linguistic innovation within their group) have been replaced and lost to time and to innovation among the other related groups.

This explanation is further bolstered by the fact that within the Yoruba group, little linguistic innovation in their language is observed along the eastern Yoruba frontiers, around the north-east Yoruba corner, and in the south-east Yoruba axis — areas nearer to the Edo region where minimal linguistic innovation is also observed.

In addition to the foregoing linguistic explanations, it must also be borne in mind that the influences must have been two-ways rather than one-way.

In other words, while there must have been influence from the Yoruba side, the native Edo side must also have played its role — especially considering the fact that the Yoruba patrilineal monarchs also have native indigenous parents as well among other factors.

In any case, some of the Benin kings’ names (even as evolved as they are ) are still intelligible from a Yoruba standpoint.

Peace!

IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City.

However, the alleged distance of 900 miles is NOT mentioned anywhere in the text.

Instead, the distance between Benin City and the Ogane’s place [as given in the text] is 250 leagues.

However, this number (250 leagues) wasn’t obtained (by the Portuguese) from any Bini informant. This fact is extremely clear from the text itself.

In fact, the Binis who lived in the 1400s/1500s did not measure distance in leagues, miles, etc. As such, they couldn’t have given such information.

Instead, the Binis of the 1400s, 1500s, etc. measured distance in natural terms, e.g. on the basis of celestial bodies such as the Moon, etc.

Interestingly, the distance obtained from the Binis by the Portuguese was given in terms of the Moon. This is given in the text.

The Binis informed the Portuguese that it takes twenty (20) moons journey to go from Benin city to the Ogané’s place.

It was on the basis of this received information (i.e. 20 moons journey away) that the Portuguese imagined what the distance in “leagues” should be.

The distance in leagues was NOT received from the Binis. The text is clear on this. The W/African context is also clear on this.

Having said that, the natural question now becomes:

Is this number (20 moons journey from Benin City to the Ogane’s place) realistic for IFE if it is indeed the Ogane’s place??

In other words, could the distance from Benin City to Ile-Ife possibly have been twenty moons journey in some “traditional” terms? Let’s do the Maths on the basis of average numbers & the “traditional” context.

The data to be used for the Math is NOT on the basis of Google map’s algorithm which assumes a walking trip with zero tiredness, zero rests, zero stops, zero pauses, zero relaxations, zero camps, constant rapid pace, etc.

Instead, the data to be used is on the basis of the real life situation, average numbers, & traditional context.

Datum 1: C. G. Okojie’s “Ishan Native Laws and Customs,” p. 210. provides the first data as follows:

The walking trip from Uromi (in Ishan) to Benin City on a course of some 50 miles “traditionally” took an average of 5 months.

~ Cited in A.F.C. Ryder (1965), p.27.

Datum 2: IFE is roughly about 174 miles away from Benin City (even over the ancient Benin-Owo-Ife route).

These two data leave an answer of about 17.4 months [NOT moons] as the “traditional” walking time from Benin to Ife.

In other words, IFE is 17.4 months journey away from Benin city on the average “traditionally”.

Question: How many “moons” are 17.4 months equivalent to? To answer this, two pieces of data will be adduced.

Datum 3: It takes the Moon 27.322 days to go around the earth.

In other words, there are [exactly] about 27.322 days in one “moon”.

Datum 4: There is an average of 30.47 days in one month.

Summary:
(1) The “traditional” walking distance from Benin to Ile-Ife took an average of 17.4 months

(2) 17.4 months are equivalent to 530.178 days (i.e. 17.4 months * 30.47days per month).

(3) 530.178 days are equivalent to 19.4 moons (i.e. 530.178 days / 27.322 days per moon).

In conclusion, the facts and figures turn out to prove that the “traditional” trip from Benin city to Ile-Ife took an average of 19.4 moons.

This answer is therefore astoundingly accurate for all practical intents and purpose.

From this again, we see that Ife is indeed the place of the Ogané of the Portuguese text. The Bini informant knew exactly what he was talking about.

PS: References to this great overlord (to whom Benin obas are subservient) is documented not once, not twice, not thrice by independent Europeans; but at least five separate times spanning centuries prior to the 1800s.

Peace!

You are actually to foolish to be ignored because to ignore has a specially foolish meaning to you. To you it means that you’re stating FaCtS. Joker.

Moreover, you are also resolutely fraudulent because this very crap you heaped above was debunked even to your satisfaction on a different thread.

The Devastating Refutation:
Eyewitness testimony/writings from the late-1400s & early-1500s which references the monarch of the Ife kingdom & his suzerainty over Benin kingdom exist.

NB: Yes, there used to be a debate in academia in the 1970s/1980s (between the mainstream scholars on one hand; and one, two, or three others on another hand) over the identity of this suzerain.

This debate was particularly on the usage of the word “east” in those early writings.

In present time, however, there is no single academic historian who holds the notion that this suzerain (of the early writings) is other than the Ooni of Ife [i.e. Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni Ufẹ̀ in the Ife dialect of the Yoruba language].

The symbol ⟨ɣ⟩ being the voiced velar fricative with its consonant sound as in this audio sample.

This conclusion is reinforced by the fact that no king, throughout the Guinea Forest of West Africa matches the specific sacral details given in those early writings, except the Ooni of Ife.

In addition to this significant fact, the debate over the word “east” was subsequently quelled by the fact that from Atakpame (in present-day Togo) to the kingdom of Benin (in present-day Nigeria), from Èkó (next to the Atlantic Ocean) to Ọ̀yọ́-Ilé (not far from the Niger River) Ife is known by the interesting epithet: Ibi ojúmọ́ ti ń mọ́ wá — i.e. “the place from where the sun rises”.

For some written references to the widespread usage of this epithet (in reference to Ife) among the natives of this region of West Africa, please refer to:

(A) Rev. D. Hinderer, “Diary Impression,” June 4, 1851, Ibadan, C.M.S.

(B) R. Horton (1979), p. 85., citing B. Maupoil (1943), A. Akinjogbin (1967:41-43), R. Smith (1969:31), as well as A. Obayemi (1976:206).

This reverential (rather than literal) epithet of Ife informed the literalist Europeans’ writings whose source(s) are Benin spokespersons of their king.

Hence the appearance of the word “east” in the early European writings in reference to the kingdom of the Ọ̀ɣọ̀ni (who is transliterated in the early writings as “Hooguanee”, “Ogané”, etc.).

Side Note: Binis, till today, still sometimes refer to the Ooni as Oghene. Refer to the entry “ɔɣɛnɛ” (i.e. “ọghẹnẹ”) in Hans Melzian’s “A Concise Dictionary of the Bini Language of Southern Nigeria” where its second definition is given as: “Bini name for the ↄni at Ile Ife”

Moreover, another piece of historical evidence which quelled the academic debate on the word “east” (as is seen in the early writings in reference to this overlord) are early maps.

There are maps (e.g. from the early 1500s) which show the phrase Dominion of the Orguene annotated across the western half of today’s Nigeria.

These historical information leaves anyone (not only the historians) with the only logical conclusion that the appearance of the word “east” in those early writings is of course not literal.

In conclusion, contrary to your ignorant assumption, there are writings from the early 1500s (on the basis of interviews of Bini representatives in the late 1400s) which references the king of Ife & his overlordship on Benin kingdom and other places.

Apart from early writings, there are other types of historical evidence which also establish clearly that there exist a classic (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

These other type of historical evidence which I come to here are classical artifacts from the hard science of archaeology. One crucial examples in this regard is discussed below.

The artifact shown in this link is the image of an Ooni of Ife. ~ S. P. Blier, “Art in Ancient Ife,” 2012, Figure 17.

The Ife naturalism of this artifact, its facial striations, as well as its classical Ife ceremonial costume and the pair of chest ornament help art historians (as well as Benin chroniclers alike) with identifying this image as an Ooni of Ife.

What is very, very crucial here is that this artifact was found in the archaeological deposits of Benin. To be more precise, it was excavated from the royal palace of Benin kingdom.

Furthermore, the production date of this artifact has now been established by science. This artifact is dated, by thermoluminescence technique, to the year 1420 [± 60 years].

~ Calvocoressi & David, “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979, p. 19.

For more pictorial angles (and details) regarding this particular artifact, please refer to:

(A) W. Fagg, “A Bronze Figure in Ife Style at Benin,” British Museum, June 1950, Plate Fa, Fb, Fc

(B) F. Willett, “Ife in the History of West African Sculpture,” McGraw-Hill, 1967, Figure 89.

(C) C. Adepegba, “The Descent from Oduduwa,” 1986, Plate 4.

In other words, a more-than 500-year-old ‘bronze’ cast of an Ooni Ife was discovered in the (archaeological deposits of the) palace of Benin kingdom.

In conclusion, it thus becomes clear that there exists a classical (i.e. pre-1800) father & son relationship between Ife & Benin respectively.

Again, this conclusion which I have inevitably reached is not mine. This is simply the conclusion of historical scholarship. This can be seen in the following works:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A beautiful summary of this conclusion of scholars of
African history (some of whose names and works are listed above) is shown in the page below from Adam Knobler (2016), p.47.

Peace!

KingOKON:
I take delight in curing ego tripping weed smoking wannabe historian like BobRISKY aka TAO12 or 11.

They can only LIE within their villages they dare not take their lies outside their villages

Slave OKON, your oba remains my boy sha.

KingOKON:
Your WEED is truly from Ogbomosho....So the playboy present Ooni of Ife must be IMMOTEP the immortal...Just Oduduwa who killed gods and spirit
Immortal ya ewedu ASS!

OKON, is there any reason why I can see through your fake laughs?

Address the points I raised for you before I open my eyes. You think you can escape with fake laughs.

OKON right now — see attached.

KingOKON:
Confirmed Rabbit brain it seems you need a stronger WEED to smoke for better understanding

IF the Benin Obas had garrison in EKO, if the Nana of Itshekeri always reported to the Oba, if the Oba knew all that the daily transactions in his empire

I’m glad you wrote IF. Who born monkey?

how come the Ogane who you CRACK head and fellow junk writers claim was superior to the Oba never knew anything about the Europeans

Because to the Oghoni of IFE, no mortal was at par, let alone superior. Neither could a mortal see his face.

Or why NEVER did any of the Obas assigned his men or chiefs to take the Europeans to go see his superior leader or did this superior leader never had emissaries at the Obas palace

Because having W-Africans walk side-by-side with the whites does not help in any way with reducing their chances of falling ill in the course wading through the deeper W/African rain forest of the 1400s, 1500s, etc.

Or is it only know to smoke WEED and type gibberish you sabi.

I am not from Benin kingdom. LMAO!

* Mind you the Oba Palace is several km from the Atlantic river, yet he controlled villages at the shores *

You mean your oba controlled villages, wOw he must be very gReAt. Haha

Komenda village had dealings with the Europeans — because the Europeans love to deal with gullible folks (not too far from the coast) whom they can short-change, e.g. Benin kingdom. Kisses!

Cc: Abohboy

Abohboy:
So you took two pictures online and said that they don't have the same crown? Bring every single picture ever of the king and then we will see every single crown they were, and i'm not yoruba i'm igbo

He is obviously a delusional nincompoop.

@mr1759, are you aware that a king can (and actually does) have more than one crown with varying sizes & designs?

Are you aware that there are certain crown-designs of Benin kings (from artifacts) which do not match any of the various crown-designs used by Benin kings today?

Likewise, the Ife king does have the right to adopt any crown design as he pleases, but there is a sacred one which is worn only once a year during Olojo.

This sacred crown also features the circular & vertical diadem which most of the artifact-crowns imitate.

Ceremonial crowns (i.e. the non-sacred crowns such as those seen in most artifacts) may/may not feature the circular & vertical diadem.

In other words, not all the ceremonial crowns (i.e. the crowns seen in artifacts, or the crowns worn everyday) feature the circular & vertical diadem. Please refer to the 1st attachment for an example.

Having clarified that, the 2nd attachment shows the reigning Ooni (Oba Adeyeye E. Ogunwusi) wearing the sacred (once-a-year) crown featuring the circular and vertical diadem.

The 3rd attachment shows the former Ooni (i.e. Oba Okunade Sijuwade) wearing the sacred (once-a-year) crown featuring the circular and vertical diadem.

The 4th attachment shows the earlier Ooni — that is, Oba Adesoji Aderemi — wearing the sacred crown and it also features the circular and vertical diadem.

Peace!

Cc: niggadee, Christistruth00, nisai, YungMillionaire, rhektor, theInterpreter, gomojam, Adekunle47, r4bbit

KingOKON:
Fishbrain
So for over 400years your Ogane the Suzerain of the Oba never knew the Obas had been interacting with Europeans you and that your Ogane, Ryder of a junk writer and the most dumbest of all in the entire universe

Okon with the wonderfully low IQ,

Komenda villager (of present-day Ghana) have being trading with Europeans for centuries.

This villages and many other villages near the Atlantic coast of W-Africa (like Benin kingdom) still exist today.

The Europeans had direct trade contacts with these vilages (Komenda, your Benin, Cape 3 points) because:

(1) They’re are a group of gullible villages whom the Europeans found easy to short-change in trade.

(2) They are closer to the coast than the deep forest of the interior.

Make your pick as you no get sense. Don’t come back without making a pick. And it’s a trap.

LMAO!

KingOKON:
[s]You lots are simply pathetic and a shame to ordinary common sense, I need not answer @Abohboy because they all were subjects and under the control of the Oba, even Onitsha bowed to the Oba
So for over 400years before the exile of the Benin king to Calabar, the Benin Kings never deemed it fit to report to their "supposedly" higher king the presence of Europeans to him, yet the Benin kings pay homages to him according to you and your " foreign writers".

If that be the case that your Ogane who you claim was suzerain over the Oba is the most foolish of all kings, so for every successive Oba interactions with Europeans they never bothered taking the Europeans to him your Ogane must be an insignificant nonentity to all the Obas until the fall of the Benin Empire. If all the tribes and villages from the shore of EKO down to Warri/Forcados where the Nana controlled all submitted and reported to the Oba whose palace was several km from the Atlantic shore yet the Oba gives no regard to the Ogane, that suzerain leader over the Oba must really be an errand boy to the Oba

So you doubt if Europeans authors never wrote Adventures of imaginary
lands of gold, women in abundance and fighting of African savage tribes to gain popularity or to massage their egos, you are truly a dumb wannabe BobRISKY historian.

@Abohboy all of you, even the upper river Niger area all answered and bowed to the Oba, you can ask your village chief and also the Obi of Onitsha who never existed when the Europeans first set foot on this continent

BobRISKY you can continue smoking you weed from ile Ife maybe you can go add some from Ogbomosho village[/s]

I can’t remember asking you for ocean of tears.

@Abohboy, you have an unfinished baby-sitting job to complete with this “town crier”. LMAO!

Iti-Boribo.

.

Think4Myself:
You're down bad for using your other accounts to like and share yourself

No I’m not from Benin kingdom.

Having debunked your shitty comment, it may now interest you to learn what your own Benin traditions say regarding the introduction of ‘bronze’ casting into Benin kingdom. The tradition goes as follows:

“Oba Oguola wished to introduce brass-casting into Benin so as to produce works of art similar to those sent to him from Ife. He therefore sent to the Oni of Ife for a brasssmith and Iguegha was sent to him.”

~ J. U. Egharevba, “A Short History of Benin,” (4th edn.,1968; First published in 1934), p.11.

Not very surprisingly, this early traditions of the Benin people (which points Ife as the source of their casting tradition) is also corroborated by science.

The Application of carbon-14 & thermoluminescence dating techniques to the Ife artifacts as well as to the Benin artifacts have come to establish that those of Ife were produced centuries earlier.

Refer to pages 18-19 of Calvocoressi & David’s “A New Survey of Radiocarbon and Thermoluminescence Dates for West Africa,” 1979 for details.

mr1759:
[s]IFE / Yoruba do not make bronze sculptures nor are they into bronze casting is purely Benin invention[/s]

Having said that, the attachments below shows the images of two of the few persons who carried on the casting tradition into the 20th/21st century as have been passed down from their predecessors.

This is despite the fact that the casting tradition nearly died out with the collapse of the Ife empire in the 1400s.

Peace!

Cc: niggadee, Abohboy, Christiatruth00, nisai, rhektor, YungMillionaire, theInterpreter, gomojam, r4bbit, Adekunle47
———————

The first attachment is from page 66 of S.P. Blier’s “Art and Risk in Ancient Yoruba,” 2015.

The second attachment is from page 264 of the same work.

theInterpreter:
even awujale of Ijebu even alake of Abeokuta
Oba of benin's shine was in the past

Except that:

He actually has no such “shine” (to the extent often painted by his Nairaland subjects) even in the past.

See the link below for details:

https://www.nairaland.com/6697675/power-oba-benin-wield-past/1#105140109

Make sure to read it to correct misinformation.

Cheers!

macof:
In the name "Atuwatse"
If the Olu of Warri's etymology is correct Uwa as wealth is probably an Edoid input, I always thought it meant "life" "existence" "the world"
Atu Uwa tse. Not At Uwa tse

In Yoruba, “ùwà” means existence.

In Yoruba, “ùwà” means conduct, character.

In Yoruba, “ùwà” means power, glory, opulence.

However, this last usage is already falling into disuse.

This last usage is found in Ijebu names such as:
Tewogbuwa, Gbelegbuwa, etc.

This last usage also seem to be the one in the word: Alaiyeluuwa — i.e., Ẹni tó ni ayé tó tún ni ùwà.

Cheers.
Cc: Omoluabi1stborn

Think4Myself:
Kai see epistle full of lies

Eeyah! I feel your pain. LMAO.

Breaking News:
Your oba ruled Benin kingdom — i.e. Benin city and its surrounding Edoid areas.

No, your oba didn’t rule the island of Lagos. Yes he got tributes from the ruling dynasty for gratitude.

No, your oba didn’t rule the Eastern-Yorubaland.

No your oba didn’t rule Europe & Japan.

Wake up and smell the coffee.

Peace!

Cc: Ademola47, rhektor, nisai, gomojam, r4bbit

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Binis on Nairaland suffer from strong delusions?

Sometimes, I am forced to think that their oba placed a ban on them from using their brains.

Otherwise, how can an adult (presumably) confidently chat the crap below in a public space?

mr1759:
IFE bronzes mysteriously appear in 1938, this appearance has help to prove that the Yorubas also had inventions and civilization in precolonial era. But surprisingly this bronze were from Benin city and was produced by Felix idubor father the year 1931, this art work was for some Yoruba dancers who came to Oba of Benin palace to participate in Oba Eweka 11 end of year event it is never past Ooni image,Also this art skill Felix idubor developed and excel with it,

Unfortunately for you, you chose the wrongest piece of IFE artwork for your propaganda.

The piece of Ife artwork (which you’ve chosen for your propaganda) is known as the “Olokun” head. See the 1st attachment below.

The “Olokun” head first caught global attention in the early-1900s.

A certain German traveler & ethnographer who goes by the name Leo Frobenius (see 1st attachment) had heard frequent stories about it in the course of his travels through West-Africa in the year 1908.

To quote Frobenius’ own precise words, he writes:

“When I came across some experienced explorers in 1908 in the great cities of the Niger on the southern borders of the Sahara, Timbuktu and Wagadugu, and often discussed the antiquity of the far south-eastern cities, Ilife [Ile-ife] was mentioned as the first of five great places and it was only when in Atakpame in South Togoland, that I identified it with Ife. What I was then told in the North was so strange, indeed, that my resolve to visit the place myself at any cost was greatly strengthened.” ~ Page 69.

More details in this same regard is given on another page as follows:

“I had already heard of the existence of an ancient “statue” of the Olokun. All who had told us of it had consistently declared that it was made of stone, but my informants at Wagadugu [in present-day Burkina-Faso] were emphatic that it was fashioned in a manner of its own.” ~ Page 96.

In other words, he had already heard tells about this piece of IFE art from people in other parts of W-Africa even before he visited Ile-Ife to behold it by himself.

The following is Frobenius’ own words on his glimpse (his very first glimpse) of this piece of IFE art.

“The lad and another man took a side-path of their own while we went along the main road to the Ebolokun Grove with the “Ancient,” at a pace suited to his great age.

On arrival under the palm-trees, we found that the young fellow had made a short cut. He was carrying a fairly heavy sack slung across his shoulders. It contained the effigy of the God. After Martius had been summoned from the scene of his labours close by, we waited intently for the sack to be opened. The grey-head placed two stones one above the other and he and his son bared the upper parts of their bodies—the invariable custom at all religious ceremonial—dragged something out of the bag, placed it on the stones, and then—well, then—I did two things : I rubbed my eyes and pinched my leg to make sure I was not dreaming and to avert attention from my exceeding joy.

Profoundly stirred, I stood for many minutes before this remnant of the erstwhile Lord and Ruler of the Empire of Atlantis.

Before us stood a head of marvellous beauty, wonderfully cast in antique bronze, true to the life, incrusted with a patina of glorious dark green. This was, in very deed, the Olokun, Atlantic Africa’s Poseidon!

My companions were no less astounded. As though we had agreed to do so, we held our peace. Then I looked around and saw the blacks, the circle of the sons of the “venerable priest,” his Holiness the Oni’s friends, and his intelligent officials. I was moved to silent melancholy at the thought that this assembly of degenerate and feeble-minded posterity should be the legitimate guardians of so much classic loveliness. For that this head of Olokun was almost equal in beauty, and, at least, no less noble in form and as ancient as the terra-cotta heads, had now been demonstrated beyond all doubt.” ~ Pages 97-98.

From the foregoing passage, it is very clear — even to the dumbest Bini mind — that the head of “Olokun” was shown to Leo Frobenius in Ile-Ife.

Guess the year when these writings was published? Take a wild guess. Not to worry, I’d help.

All the words of Leo Frobenius which I have quoted so far comes from the first volume of his book which is entitled: “The Voice of Africa”. And this book was published in the year 1913.

Frobenius’ visit to Ife and Yorubaland in general was sometimes between 1910 and 1911. He wrote about these dates as follows:

“From now onwards I had to carry out the plans conceived in 1894. I got a sufficient sum for excavation work by way of a loan from the cashbox of a friend, and went on board the Alexandra Woermann with my assistants, Carl Arriens, the artist, and Albrecht Martius, the engineer, in September, 1910. The present book is devoted to an account of this journey and what we accomplished by it. The remainder of 1910 and the early part of 1911 were spent in Yoruba land.” ~ Page 36.

Reference: Leo Frobenius, “The Voice of Africa,” Vol 1, (1913), p.36, p.69, p.96, and pp.97-98.
——————-

In the light of the forgoing facts, could you now come forward to explain to how a certain Felix Idubor’s dad produced this bronze head in 1931, yet it (this same very head) was already shown to Leo Frobenius at IFE in the year 1910-11? No be juju be that!? LMAO!

Cc: niggadee, Abohboy, Christistruth00, nisai, rhektor, YungMillionaire, theInterpreter, gomojam, Adekunle47, r4bbit

The first attachment is from page 308 of L. Frobenius’ book: “The Voice of Africa,” Vol 1 (1913).

KingOKON:
[s]So between the said period where was your Shaki, Modakeke, Ilorin and Ibadan enclaves?

And all that while the Portuguese NEVER thought going looking for your "imaginary " super king in ile Ife..
Continue smoking ya weed[/s]

LMAO!

I am cracking because even your brother, @Abohboy, realized you have a wonderfully low I.Q.

He actually literally dumbed it down to you that white people dared not penetrate deep into the interior of the West-African rain forest at that time.

They have a substantial I.Q. unlike Okon to know that death awaits them from plasmodium parasites, etc. as those are more concentrated the deeper one goes.

Unlike them, West Africans are way highly immune to these parasites. And this was at a time when there is no real antibiotics yet.

As such they restricted their interactions to kingdoms and villages near the coast where their ships were.

Having educated you on what most people learnt in junior high school (thanks also: @Abohboy), the actual relationship between Benin and Yoruba is as seen in the attached summary below.

Moreover, the comparison made of Yoruba cities and Benin (that “Benin was inconsiderable”) by Punch was made before the DeStRuCtiON of Benin.

Regarding your screenshot, now I’m also curious as to why some earlier travelers to Benin exaggerated Benin (rather than paint it in the exact bad way that it was which later travelers did anyways)?

Are they simply painting exaggerations to enable them sell their books back in Europe? This appears to be the case.

Prior to joining Nairaland, I only hear about delusions, but since joining I actually engaged deluded folks, i.e. folks from the back-water known as Benin kingdom.

It’s almost as if your oba banned you all from making use of your brains.

First of all, I can only imagine what you all regurgitate into one another’s mouths about other people (e.g. Our oba cOnQuErEd the world from Edo state to Japan).

However, I would have expected that adults (and 21st century adults for that matter) like you all would know that such statements are only as vain as kids’ “My daddy is the strongest in the world” statements.

Every single group in the olden days must have made such delusional-cum-false vainglorious claims. Those claims are not necessarily corroborated at the other end (e.g. Akure, Lagos, Japan, etc.).

Other people in the modern world have realized this fact. Binis, on the other hand, seem to have been left behind and stuck in delusions.

Not only that, you all seem shocked that others don’t accept your delusions. Psychiatrists have got work to do in Benin kingdom if only they knew how many are the patients roaming there.

Abohboy:
[s]The Deji of Akure and poother indigenes of Ondo know through oral stories that the Bini once ruled over them and we know because of the British and also Ijebu oral stories that the Bini took other parts of Lagos I don't see what you're trying to deny although the source is by a bini man the point still stands the story he is talking about is dated back to the 15th-216th century at the peak of Bini power in Nigeria meanwhile your sources are dated to the 18th century when the decline in Bini power started so it's no surprise that the Nupe and Yoruba were able to take back large swathes of land from them[/s]

In the hope that I can cure your delusions, I will cite to you what the Akure (and Eastern Yoruba frontier in general) & Lagos traditions say regarding their respective link, or relationship with Benin kingdom.

Oh by the way, bRiTiSh & IjEbU oRaL sToRiEs say no such crap as you’ve insinuated in your above heap of crap. ‘Weytin be bRiTiSh oRaL sToRiEs sef’?

Now to the traditions of Akure (& the Eastern frontier in general) as you’ve requested:

“An interesting perspective on this subject was given by the Oore of Otun[-Ekiti] to this author during visits to the Otun palace in the 1970s.* According to the Oore, the true picture was that Ekiti kingdoms did not really see Benin as an enemy. … The Oba of Benin was regarded as a “brother” to some Ekiti kings. Paying tribute to the Oba of Benin was out of the question. … In Ado and Akure where bloody battles occurred, there were a special factors at work.” ~ Prof. S. A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People,” Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.216-217.

Before moving to what the “special factors at work” in Akure, etc. are; I would like to remind you about what should have been obvious to any normal person, viz.

Engaging in battles, conflicts with a group is not one and the same thing as being “ruled over”.

Now to the specific factors leading to the conflict with Benin by the Akures, et al.:

“According to Owo traditions, a large colony of Benin traders sprang up in Owo and a large colony of Owo traders sprang up in Benin. From Owo, Benin trade spread rapidly into Ekiti and Akoko. Akure, to the north of Owo, became a major center of Benin trade, with a large colony of Benin traders. …

Wherever there was a sizeable colony of Benin traders, they had the habit of organizing themselves into a community with its own “chiefs,” topped by a head chief with the title of Olotu-Ado or Olotu Ekiran. They also developed the practice of sending their tributes to the Oba of Benin through their Olotu Ado. Usually, these head chiefs wanted to be seen and treated as representatives of the Oba of Benin. Their unmet expectations in this regard came to play some part in causing conflicts with Benin. According to Akure traditions, the first coming of Benin troops to Akure, during the reign of Oba Ewuare of Benin in about the middle of the fifteenth century, was caused by a major confrontation between the Akure government and the leadership of the Benin trading community over a dispute between some Akure and Benin traders in the Akure marketplace.” ~ Prof. S. A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People,” Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.213.

It must have become clear to you (hopefully, Amen) at this point that the Yorubas of the Eastern frontier do not subscribe to the mouth-to-mouth jokes which you all regurgitate to one another at your backwater.

To think you actually believed everyone in the world agrees with you that your “dad is the strongest in the world” is wholesomely pitiable. I can only ask that you grow up.

To conclude then from what the traditions of Akure, et al. have been shown to say; it is super clear that the pictures being painted to you in your back water is the very same picture that kid siblings tell one another — i.e. “our daddy is the strongest in the world.”

“On the whole, the movements of Benin’s men in arms appear to have been intrinsically actions in support of trade and traders. Benin was a great trading state whose rulers paid very close attention to its citizens’ trading activities. The Oba of Benin himself was the patron of some of the most important trading associations that organized trade to various territories outside of Benin. It is in the context of the activities and traditions of these trading associations that we must understand most statements in Benin claiming many distant lands as places in which the Oba of Benin had influence.” ~ S. A. Akintoye, “A History of the Yoruba People,” Amalion Publishing, 2010, p.217.

Having shown that those Eastern Yoruba traditions do not say what you’ve claimed they say; let’s move now to the Lagos traditions and see what they say with respect to the relationship with Benin.

As per the Lagos traditions, the relationship with Benin was in more than one fold.

(1) Benin (like some other immigrant groups) desired to settle on the island (i.e. near the Atlantic coast) for the sake of the booming European costal trade which had began.

The first approach of the Benin immigrants to settle in the island was through warfare. However, they knew better after being decisively beaten back by the natives — the drowning of Ehengbuda in the Atlantic coast of Lagos is not unlinked to this event.

The hostility was soon followed by amicable resolve, and the Benin people later showed up with no show of force, they sought permission to land, and a piece of the island was approved and conferred to them by the natives. Thus did the Benin people settle in on the island peacefully.

(2) After having been living in Lagos for many decades, the Benin group became the largest and the most prominent of all the immigrant groups on that island.

The island which hitherto was a disused pepper farm and fishing settlement of the natives — under the control and ownership of the Olofin (now Oloto) whose office was located on a neighboring island —was soon to have its independence from the Oloto with its own king.

A certain Yoruba noble by the name Ashipa (who is one of the chiefs at Isheri-Olofin) was very ambitious. He saw the need to declare the island independent of the Oloto and have its own independent monarchy as sizeable town settlements had now sprang up in all directions on the land (the island).

This Yoruba chief from Isheri (i.e. Ashipa) then took it upon himself to team up with the immigrant groups (consisting largely of the Binis) and the Benin king in order to attain his aspiration.

The alliance proved successful (as the Benin govt. itself have had prior interest in the area), and Ashipa became the progenitor of a new dynasty of Yoruba monarchs — with a strong tie of gratitude to Benin.

(3) Ashipa’s ties to Benin was soon to be more than one of gratitude. He also had a son born to him by a Benin woman (who apparently comes from the royal family of the Benin kingdom).

The name of this son is remembered in the traditions as Ado. He was born and raised in Benin city. He came to the island later to succeed his father. He is officially recognized today as the first king (proper) of the island as his father’s authority was minimal if not nil.

As such the line of Lagos-island kings are also in this manner descended from the line of Benin kings.


Again, regardless of what you all regurgitate to each other’s mouths in Benin about Lagos, Lagos traditions have something else to say as summarized above.

For reference, see: Alan C. Burns, “History of Nigeria,” (1929), pp.42-44.

Lastly, Nupe did not TaKe BaCk no land. Face it, the evidence shows that Nupe made incursions into Benin kingdom, and even installed envoys who take and remit back tributes. And this happened long prior to the Bristish conquest of Benin — i.e. it happened when Benin was still in its power.

Similarly, Ibadan or Ilorin had no boundary with Benin. So, your talk of getting back some land is simply laughable. Ibadan and Ilorin are far away from Benin. And the Ibadan and Ilorin incursion into Benin kingdom also happened prior to the British conquest of Benin — i.e. they happened when Benin was still in its power.

Peace!
Cc: Ademola47, rhektor, nisai, gomojam, r4bbit, macof

KingOKON:
[s]BobRISKY the one and only weed smoking wannabe historian, so in 1556 and at other times when Benin and the Europeans were busy having intellectual discourse where were your Shaki, Ibadan, Abeokuta, Ilorin towns.I bet Oranmiyan and co were still hanging on trees back then while the soldiers from the Obas palace were busy merchandising at EKO...Fast forward to 1890s "Unharmed" visitor according to who? Well good enough he ain't no coward like his subjects in Ilorin, Abeokuta and Ibadan who welcomed the British soldiers with fanfares. Well no surprise cause they longed yearned to be free from the Obas control, EKO was now at liberty because of the Obas exile. You and your Ryder of a writer came to the party very late, not until the exile of the Oba of Benin was there anything of significance West of the Benin Empire. The Oba was the OverLORD[/s]

Okon with the wonderfully low I.Q.

What version of crap did you just heap?

Crap-08-52-AM?? LMAO!

Give me evidence, I can’t remember asking you for crap.

MufasaLion:
You subtly kind of act savage in your response. I asked the question because I wanted to know what I didn't know.

I'm a neutral person and please I don't wanna be caught in whatever squabble.

MufasaLion:
You subtly kind of act savage in your response. I asked the question because I wanted to know what I didn't know.

I'm a neutral person and please, I don't wanna be caught in whatever squabble.

Anyways, thanks for the enlightenment.

Apologies.

Warm Regards!

KingOKON:
.Even the Oba of Lagos will testify to that.

Okon with the wonderfully-low I.Q.

Any I.Q. increment in recent times? Obviously none. Moving on …

I’ve been waiting on you for months now to provide an indisputable evidence (a video) showing where Oba Akiolu (a 21st century king) said or implied that Binis ruled even a plot of land in Lagos-island.

You fled to voluntary exile once this request was put to you, only to return from exile to continue peddling the very thing for which you had gone on exile.

The Oba was exiled to Calabar because he was a threat to the monopoly of trade at the port especially that of lagos.

Chief Ovaranmwen, the reigning Chief of Benin then was actually banished from his land to the forest.

He was banished not because of trade but because he ordered the killing of unarmed visitors to his land.

He was to be hanged like his men, but he was spared and only banished to the forest because he pleaded to have known nothing about the attack.

While he was exiled, the Ibadan, Abeokuta and Ilorin Chiefs were sending emissaries to the British so as to gain favors and celebrate the fall of their Overlord King

You Binis have to make up your mind on one of two things.

Were the Yoruba kingdoms (of Ibadan, Abeokuta and Ilorin) conquered by the British long before the Benin chiefdom was conquered — in which case they were already open to relationship with the British?

Or was the Benin chiefdom conquered first and Chief Overanmwen banished before the British supposedly began relationship with Ibadan, Abeokuta, and Ilorin?

Make up your mind.

In any case, there is no relationship between Benin & Abeokuta (that any historian is aware of) except that:

“As a town, Benin was inconsiderable compared with places like Ibadan, Iseyhin, Shaki, Modakeke, and Abeokuta.”

~C. Punch, 1889 Journal; cited in H.L. Roth (1903), p.vii.

Another relation I can recall between Benin & Ilorin is as highlighted in the attachment below.

IF any of these relationship look to you like a vassal & overlord relationship; Benin clearly is the vassal.

CC: Naigleria1

An Interesting Post:
Lieutenant John King, R.N. who visited the Benin area sometimes between 1815 and 1820 has the following to say about the actual crown (i.e. the primary/initial crown) of the Itsekiri nation:

“At Warri "the actual crown of the sovereign is a sort of large cap in the shape of a cone three feet high, covered with coral beads and with a couple of birds' heads on top" (King).”.

~ John King, c.1817, cited in H. L. Roth, Great Benin: Its Customs, Arts, and Horrors, (1903), p.27, note 1.

This description of the primary Itsekiri crown (from J. King’s eyewitness observation) matches nothing else but the signature Yoruba crowns popularly known as: Adé-Ńlá which is said by the Yoruba kingdoms holding them to be the actual crown (design) with which the Ife princes originally left Ife to establish their own respective kingdom.

These Ade-Nla crowns are usually adorned only once during sacred installation rites by the kingdoms who hold such jewels. An example of what Ade-Nla crowns look like is as attached below.


The logical implication of the foregoing information is that this primary (or “actual”) crown of the Itsekiris is the actual crown (among his royal share) with which Ginuwa left the Benin palace in the mid/late-1400.

It then follows logically that the Benin palace itself is a Yoruba place (in a foreign land) as have been noted by the early received Benin traditions as well as the Yoruba traditions which notes that Ade-Nla was given to the princes from IFE as a part of their royal gifts.

This explains, more clearly, why his (Ginuwa’s) group was accepted by the autochthonous group of the land without any resistance — i.e. an Ade-Nla crown which established his legitimacy as a “son” of Oodua.

History proves itself again for the umpteenth time.

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366, gomojam, r4bbit

gregyboy:
[s]The first history of Oduduwa ever told by yorubas to europeans in 1894Oduduwa was a female goddess
[/s]

I ask again, what version of crap is this?
——————

Anyways, the refutation of the comments you wove around your first screenshot is as shown below:

(1) First of all, it is clear from my comment that the specific point I made is about a deity Oduduwa — not the historical personage who himself was deified.

(2) The word “deified”, by the way, refers to the idea of elevating a human to the status of a deity usually after such person has passed on.

In such cases, the human-gender doesn’t necessarily determine the deity-gender.

In other words, a historical man may be admitted into a pantheon as a male deity, or a female deity, or as both.

In Benin kingdom for example, despite the historical Oduduwa being recognized (even there) as a man, he is deified as both a male-deity & a female-deity.

Olokun is a woman historically, yet she is deified both as a male-deity and as a female-deity, in Yorubaland.

(3) Your screenshot (which reference I provided) is on a deity Oduduwa, in the specific context of religion.

The title of the book makes it clear that it is not about history. It is not a history book at all in the first place.

Moreover, the chapter’s title also makes it specifically clear that it is about divinities not the actual humans themselves who were deified. The chapter’s title reads as “CHIEF GODS”.

As such, the reference I gave to a non-history book is in agreement with the point I was making.

And the point I was making on that thread, quoting word-for-word, is that:

“And there are books on the Yoruba people’s religion, etc. (published before Johnson’s history) which shows the name Oduduwa as one of these heavenly deities. See A.B. Ellis (1894).”

(4) And why did this issue of deities come up in the first place?

It came up because Crowther didn’t write about Ife’s history — being that he is a linguist and as such is concerned with grammar books, etc. — but at times devotes very minuscule pages to accounts of some stories/histories in the introductory remarks.

In one of his introductory remarks, he touched on the story of creation at Ife, which features heavenly beings — not historical beings — whose names differ one version of the story to another.

It was in this context (i.e. the context of deities) that I cited Oturupon-Wonifa as well as A.B. Ellis (1894) for the names Oduduwa, et al. as deities featuring in the story about Yoruba deities or heavenly beings.

(5) Johnson’s later work, on the other hand, is a work on history (a comprehensive one at that), and as such covers the history of the Yorubas from the beginning to the king-Oduduwa period and beyond to the 1800s.

(6) In sum, the issue of omission does not come up in the case of Crowther because his grammar work (with some accounts) is not intended to (and did not) cover all the way up to the king-Oduduwa period.

Similarly, A. B. Ellis’ work (which focuses on religion, etc.) is obviously not a history book, and as such is not supposed to (and did not) cover anything about king Oduduwa.

The specific mention of Odua in this work was clearly shown under the chapter entitled “CHIEF GODS”.

In other words, a deity Odua (whose gender doesn’t necessarily follow that of the actual human who was deified) is the only relevant point of reference as far as this non-history book is concerned.

In recognition of this unique gender-phenomenon in the deification of Yoruba personages, R. F. Burton in his 1863 publication writes in the * footnote of page 186 as follows:

“The fact that this deity is male, female, and hermaphrodite, is a fair specimen of pagan vagueness.”

Moreover, I have also alluded already to the kingdom of Benin where king-Oduduwa is of course known to have been a man, but is in the same breath deified as both a male deity, and a female deity.
——————-


The refutation of your second screenshot is as shown below:

The opinion expressed in your 3rd screenshot is that of a certain Ryder from the year 1965.

Guess what has happened between 1965 and 2021 in the field of historical scholarship of African history.

The field of historical scholarship of African history has unanimously debunked that opinion from Ryder.

See for example:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A summary of this unanimous conclusion of scholars is aptly put in a 2016 publication as attached below in the first screenshot below.

[s]Benin people adopted the story of Oduduwa for political and cultural unification wirh yorubas after amalgamation 1915

Prior to then there was nothing like Oduduwa tales in benin history[/s]

The second screenshot attached below shows your kings with pure Yoruba titles, viz.

Ọba, Àdìmílà, Õṣà’Kejì; as well a link between your kings and Odùduwà.

NB: This was published in the year 1906 by R. E. Dennett following years of field work in Benin and among the Kongos.

So, now that your proposition of 1914/1915 has failed embarrassingly, I hereby ask that you should move your date farther back — and don’t forget to tell us the reason behind whatever new date you come up with.

Peace!

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366, OLOKUN175

OLOKUN175:
[s]Oduduwa is a myth, the Oba certainly do have something to do with Yoruba but the Oduduwa and Ife tale is horsepile of Bullshit[/s]

No wonder you didn’t write this crap with your UGBE634 moniker.

You knew well there is zero evidence for what you’re about to write — and that what exists, instead, are historical evidence to the contrary of what you wish to peddle.

Lol.
Cc: Ademola47

MufasaLion:
So this is the stolen crown?

No.

The stolen crown is a silver European style crown. It went missing sometimes this year or so.

The image attached is only a sample of what Ade-Nla typically looks like in the Yoruba kingdoms.

And the Itsekiris’ Ade-Nla (if missing) must have gone missing in the 1800s or early 1900s. Search EUrOpEaN museums.

Read the comment you quoted one more time, slowly this time.

Peace!

gregyboy:
[s]Read your history and then read my screenshot[/s]

Akùrì, refer to following comment for a dumbed down explanation of your screenshot which you clearly have no clue on:
——————
The fact you truly believe that this screenshot refutes anything says it all about your grasp of English.

To help your life, I will dumb-down the content:

(A) The general Yoruba tradition is that they and their kings trace back to king Oduduwa of Ife.

(B) The exact words “the heritage of Oduduwa” is not necessarily the same precise wording used by them

However, their wordings of the traditions is obviously to the same effect.

(C) There is at least one of these kingdoms (i.e. Oyo) which has something quite strange to say.

(D) This strange claim is found by this scholar (whose screenshot you attached) to be a latter claim which Oyo itself didn’t have/belief ab-initio.

(E) This scholar found that Oyo (being imperial later) then came up with this for propaganda of superiority over its father, the Ooni.

Having dumbed-down your own screenshot for you, I am aware that the whole of points (C), (D), and (E) may not be very obvious to you from the screenshot.

As such, I will cite the specific passages from the same material where Prof. R.C.C. Law made it clear.

R.C.C. Law writes, while debunking the spurious & strange one-off accounts which intends to challenge the Ooni’s superiority as follows:

“Certain traditions relating to the ancestry of the Oni of Ife appear to have been devised specifically in order to counter the Oni's very plausible claim to paramount status. ... This denial of true royal ancestry to the Oni of Ife offered an opportunity for other kings to claim for themselves primacy of status among the descendants of Oduduwa.”

~ Page 212.

Moreover, after combing through the evidences, R. C. C. Law then summarizes his find on the last page as follows:

“SUMMARY
…The article considers the political implications of the Yoruba traditions of origin, and seeks to relate the existence of certain variants of the tradition to the use of it for purposes of political propaganda. In particular, it is suggested that the tradition was manipulated and modified in an attempt to support the claims to paramountcy of the king of Oyo, when this kingdom became the most powerful state in the Yoruba area during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries…”.

~ Page 224.

Cc: Ademola47, Nisiw366.

gregyboy:
[s]Unless fairytale were trueOromi Yan was an idol worshiped in oyoSamuel Johnson made him a living entity im his book he wrote in 1897.....So how come an idol came to benin... Read my screenshot and know abundance peace[/s]

What version of crap did you heap here?
——————
Your Screenshot:
Your screenshot is an opinion of a certain Ryder from the year 1965.

Guess what has happened between 1965 and 2021 in the field of historical scholarship of African history.

The field of historical scholarship of African history has unanimously debunked that opinion from Ryder.

See for example:

A. Akinjogbin (1967), F. Willett (1973), R. C. C. Law (1973), R. Horton (1979), A. Obayemi (1980), R. Smith (1988), B. Adediran (1991), D. Bondarenko (2003), S. A. Akintoye (2010), A. Ogundiran (2020), et al.

A summary of this unanimous conclusion of scholars is aptly put in a 2016 publication as attached below in the 2nd screenshot below:

Cheers!
Cc: Nisiw366, Ademola47

You see, there is actually nothing wrong with having more than one moniker in case one gets banned.

What is wrong, instead, is to dissociate yourself from your own monikers like it’s a plague. Lol.

I once called you out for your childish acts with your alternative monikers. You feigned dumb and denied.

Now see your moniker here as well as the attachment below. Lol.

In any case, your comment below which you’d copied
from the other thread (under your moniker UGBE634) has been debunked at that thread.

I will debunk it here as well as shown below.

OLOKUN175:
Your sister has extended her claim to the Ogisos.When you seem successful with one claim with one or two binis agreeing with you no matter how absurd it may seem you move on to the next claim

Focusing on the word claim, could you point out one of the points I’ve educated you on which is a mere claim of mine rather than the submission of historical scholarship on the basis on extant, classical received Benin traditions from Benin?

After that, do the same check for your submissions and revert here to tell us what you find—let me know who is clinging to a personal wishful thinking & sourceless latter-day poor fraudulent revision.

Why is the Ogiso Edo and not Ife.

Lol. First of all, “ogiso” is not a given/personal name.

Rather, it is the Edo word for the office held by these monarchs who first ruled the Edos.

The discussion here is NOT about the word with which the autochthonous people (the Binis) described that office in their own language.

Neither is the discussion here about the mythologies woven around the holders of the office (at least the 1st of them) by the Bini people perhaps due to their leadership shrewdness — e.g., Sky descent.

Rather, this discussion is about the place from where the initiative for that monarchy was born/despatched.

The earliest Benin traditions (undisputed by modern historical scrutiny) answers that the place is IFE.

———————
Now to the name itself, having clarified that the Edos may call such temporary representatives by any title they wish in their language; or weave any mythology they wish around them:

In the worldview of the Yorubas, a person assigned to carry out tasks in a foreign land (in the interest of the Ife-Yoruba court or any Yoruba court for that matter) is simply a “chief” (i.e. olóyè/onóyè) of the court.

The title applied by the native Edos to these Yorubas envoys (the first and by extension all three of them) who have been assigned the task of introducing some monarchy form to the natives is ogiso.

This word comes from a phrase which itself is rooted in two basic words. One of these two Edo words viz. ogie is recognizably cognate with Yoruba, Igbo, etc.

The second of these two words is iso which unlike th first may have evolved way, way earlier from a basic common etymon in the proto-YEAI cluster; or perhaps even from the proto-Benue-Kwa cluster.

It is important to add that this word developed into a mythical attribute from a praise attribute; just as the Omonoba Akenzua II (reign: 1933 - 1978) also has the praise name: “Akenzua n-iso n-orhọ”.

The Edo word “ogie”, as noted above, is cognate with some other words in the proto-YEAI language cluster.

In other words, it evolved (as others) from a common etymon in that cluster. Some of the cognates in their respective languages are:

Oche (Idoma), Orodje (Urhobo/Isoko) Onóyè (Yoruba), Ovie (Urhobo/Isoko), Ogie (Edo), Oje (Esan), Eje (Proto-Igboid), Eze (Modern Igbo).

It is noteworthy to state that these words technically speaking is not strictly equivalent to the word “king”, although it has evolved in modern times to mean one and the same thing.

For a fact, these words originally signifies the following linguistically:

“The Honorable”, “Office-Holder”, “Ruler”, “Chief”, etc.

From the standpoint of historical studies/research as well, kingship (in its actual sense) has not developed in the Edo forest prior to/during the Ogiso period.

As such, the pre-existing Edo word, “ogie”, could not have had a meaning equivalent to such concept. This is not to say some form of political organization would not have been in existence amongst them.

These and several other evidences must in fact have informed Bondarenko’s consistent clarification of the Ogisos as no monarchs in the strict sense of the word, but actually some supreme supra-chiefdom rulers.

1. Because there are several folklores concerning the Ogisos in Ugo about Peace, honesty, natural Justice,and so on and not one about Ife.

2.There are descendants of Ogiso in Benin and not Ife, They are one of the 74 families in Benin, they are pure Edos by Blood and they trace their Origin to Ugo and not Ife.

3. The Oba placed himself as a continuation of the Ogisos so as to pass the Message to the Binis or Edos that he is pure Edo by Blood in other to Garner and gather their support against the Ogieamien who gives them tough time at every ascension with the claim that they are foreigners.

4. To discontinue his relationship with the yorubas, because he knows by saying he is a continuation of the Ogiso, he would alter his link with Yoruba and Ife after the bad bromance the father had with western region before 1963 which he was already a grown man and an adult with Education to see these things.
We can see from the following point that Oba Eredieuwa is aware that the Ogiso is stuck in Antiquity and the story Egharevba collated from his father's court is not really a testament of the realities on ground.

1. You’ve been confidently chatting sh*t all along.

First of all, if by “Ugo” you’re trying desperately to give the impression that the Ogiso monarch was first despatched to Benin town from Ugo, then you lie as there is no objective reference for that anywhere. Not even the recent fraudulent revisions say that.

But if by “Ugo”, you mean that the original site of the Ogisos’ court is situated within Ugo (rather than within Benin town itself), then you lie again — even though it makes no difference to the point my point wherever they ruled from.

The late Dr. R. E. Bradbury (who during his days was the outstanding authority on Benin and the Edo speaking peoples — with years of intensive anthropological field work in Benin, and contributing a volume on the Benin Kingdom to the Ethnographic survey of Africa) already notes in his 1957 publication
that the original site of the Ogiso court was within the present limit of Benin “town”.

All in all, the earliest Benin traditions (undisputed by modern historical scrutiny) notes that the first ‘Benin’ monarchs who came to be mythologized as Ogiso are actually emissaries from Ife (the first 3 of them) prior to when the Binis continued the political organization by themselves also as a non-dynastic “monarchy”. See: Egharevba (1936) p.7; Bondarenko & Roese (2001), p.10; Bondarenko & Roese (2015), p.54.

2. Could you explain how the descendants of the Bini Ogisos should have been in Ife (and not Benin) based off of the fact that the system was launched to Benin from there?

Moreover, you bungled again with your “Ugo” fraud. The Ogiso ‘dynasty’ (so-called) was not a dynasty in the sense of the word. In other word, it was never a father to son affair. You never knew this. ~ See: Ibid.

Moreover, the Ife Yoruba-line is said to have ended at the time of the third of them at a time when Ife was convinced that the autochthonous people (the Binis) are now capable of running such system effectively by themselves. I have cited the evidence for this.

By the way, I noticed you never cited a single material, not even a toilet roll. You mean we must agree with anything you type because your moniker is UGBE? LMAO!

3. Of course, I am aware that Omonoba Erediauwa (in whose time Edo history went fraudulent) was trying to miraculously convert himself to patrilineal Bini by coming up with the fraud that Oranmiyan is descended from Ogiso Owodo.

I am aware that he is patrilineally Yoruba. I am aware that he was just being fraudulent. I have repeated this with historical evidence since ‘forever’. You’re not the first to tell me that.

However, no one historian ever said that Owodo is an Ife-Yoruba man — literally no historian said that.

Instead, what historians find on the basis of the early Benin traditions is that:

The first chief (mythologized as “ogiso” by the natives) was sent from Ife. The third was the last in the Ife line. The Edo continued the system themselves. The system was not a father to son affair.

4. On the basis of the foregoing point 3 your logic that the Ogiso was initiated by the Edo is embarrassingly flawed.

The historical sources are clear, the monarchy began as a internal Edo affair only on the fourth reign.

As such, Erediauwa’s fraud is consistent while also not disrupting a thing from the early Benin traditions that Ife is the home of only the first 3 of the “Honorables”.

In other words, Ife is the origin of the system even as per the Benin traditions which has remained logical in the light of thorough scrutiny by the historians.

Peace!

[s]Also on the bini Edo tale
1. Bini is the same thing as Edo, It is like my name is Osato and you named me Ola and I became popular with it, mixed blood ke, Urine blood ni.but on a second thought the name Bini would tilt to two sources more than the Ile Ibinu story
1.the itsekiris who claimed they named Bini Ubini and they told the Portuguese that there is a kingdom a powerful kingdom inside known as Ubini
2. The name Benyn means Kindness in Portuguese language. Some sources said that the name was given to the Binis by the Portuguese after the hospitality they received from the Binis.
Peace!.[/s]

What a lying d!ckhead!?

(1) No where did the Itsekiris claim that they named the Binis or their land. Absolutely no where. Wait, do you have any clue what it means to name sb or sth?

(2) Oluwa oo, I though have seen it all. Anyways to educate folks (from you Bini clowns misinformation), Benyn doesn’t mean jack in Portuguese.

“Sources”? Do you have any clue what sources mean??

Anyways, what sOuRcEs said that the Bini were nAmEd by the Portuguese? We’re waiting. Lol.

Cc: Gbajure.

Born2Breed:
[s]Which one fell from the sky sorry which one came from mecca? [/s]

The so-called Pa IDU came from mEcCa, the so-called Ogiso IGODO fell from the SkY. /s

Cc: macof.