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 Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 11:41pm On Jul 18, 2007 |
pilgrim.1: Murderer: someone who commits the act of murder; killer Murdered: someone on whom the act of murder is done on; killed You brought in the term 'victim' from thin air. We're not dealing with victims here; a victim is someone who is stabbed in the middle of the night by thugs, who is innocent. I mean how can you attribute the term victim to 2 people who each have weapons and are fighting each other to death? How can you call one of them a murderer and the other a victim?? So its wrong to use the word victim here, or the notion of innocent or guilty. Read the hadith carefully. 2 guys are battling it out with swords. When one kills the other he's the murderer, and the won who is killed, is the murdered. (goes without saying) So the Prophet (saw) says that they both "will go to the Hell-fire", for they both intended to kill each other, and who killed who was irrelevant, since they would both go to the Hell fire if A killed B or if B killed A. Have I made it clear? Sorry if I've confused you. And I picked it up from yours - said so earlier, NO? You said you picked it up from mine first, but I wasnt the first to, eeehhhh trivial matter, forget it  I was being honest - and like I stated earlier, Ibn Kathir's tafsir is not strange to me, nor was I puzzled by what he copped out from the fabricated hadiths. My point was simply that the hadith itself violates what the Qur'an stipulates. But it doesnt. See below. I didn't argue about what crucial part the hadith plays in Islamic theology - as long as they don't use that to dribble concepts into the Qur'an through the back door to make Allah say what he hasn't said in the Qur'an. Dribble cocepts into the Quran? Sir, Islamic Law is based on 4 things: Quran, Sunnah, Ijma and Qiyas. That includes Hadith in there. The words of the Prophet are not to be discarded but rather cherished. Indeed, you can "obtain" a thousand and one things from the words of Muhammad and applaud them - even though Muhammad himself was inconsistent in the hadiths. It is no surprise really that you'd pander to the hadiths that appease your particular denominational or sectarian strain, even though one doesn't need a Harvard degree to see through the inconsistencies in such hadiths, nevermind the double fact that they contradict the express declarations in the Qur'an. Very nice. Now answer my questions. Were in the Quran is it written on how to pray? Were is it written about Mahdi? Both things are in all "denominations" as all Muslims believe in them, so don't try to play that card. Trying to score a cheap applause because you dream that I take my persuasions from Answering Islam! Don't make me laugh. The one thing you can't deny (unless by a diehard dishonesty) is that there is no mention of any Sira'at over Hell in the Qur'an. The whole thing was whipped up to allay the fears of those in the Muslim ummah who might be wondering about the irrevocable decree of Allah in that verse. Does the Quran inexplicably say "There is no Bridge"? No it doesnt. So you're making absurd conclusions. We'll see if this is your own work a little bit later. I'm not pretending myself as a scholar either; and unless you want to make a case that the sources I quoted from were not scholarly (even though they were penned by Muslim scholars), then I can understand how low you'd like to reduce Islamic scholarship. No? It seems you are. You are going against widely accepted core theological concepts in Islam about the Sira'at and saying it doesnt exist, basing your arguments on verse and hadiths. That looks like the work of a self proclaimed scholar to me. My dear, I don't have guns to stick to, in so far as it is Muslims themselves who quarrel over what hadiths are authentic and which are fabricated. In debates with many Muslims, the inconsistencies are glaring, and I've decided to often refer to the hadith that way to make Muslims understand that it's not my responsibility to be sympathetic one way or the other with any sectarian divide in Islam. The inconsistancy is on your part. First you call hadiths fabricated (failing to give specific reasons why) and yet in the very same post you use a hadith to argue your point!! Do you believe hadiths to be fabricated or not? If yes, then why do you quote them  Snivels like yours show how small people think in their pretended readership skills. My argument is not based solely on the vacancy of any verses in the Qur'an not mentioning the bridge over Hell. More than that, I've demonstrated that it is precisely the case of no such bridge from the collective evidences in other references than just Sura 19:71! How come you pretend to have missed that? You are wasting my time. I havent missed those other verses (not suras, tsk tsk call yourself an apostate), and I have said that nowhere in the Quran is the Siraat mentioned. You said, did you not, that the Quran makes no mention of Sira'at, therefore no such thing exists? That is flawed logic. You assume one fact based on another one not being there. I cant believe Im even discussing this with you, with David maybe, but not you! I'm greatly humoured by your logic! You state it yourself and in one fell swoop deflate it yourself - and you try to apply that to the substance of my rejoinder? Titters! Give me strength. You are saying the Sira'at doesnt exist because it isnt mentioned in the Quran? Right? Well Hitler isnt mentioned in the Quran but that doesnt mean Hitler exists!!! If the Quran said "There is no such thing as the Sira'at" then yes, we can safely say the Sira'at doesnt exist. But it doesnt say that. The fact that it doesnt mention it, does not prove that it doesnt exist! arrghh Yeah right. . . even if it is obvious that the hadith references contradict what was stated in the Qur'anic verse in question.[/quote] |
| Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 6:34pm On Jul 18, 2007 |
@Tiptronic, I was particularly referring to the translation you offered to gloss over what the Qur'an clearly stipulates. However, I know what Islam teaches about people going to hell - and it does not only appertains to only those who take their own lives. See the following: NO. I thought the hadith is pretty self-explainatory but obviously not. Look at the last phrase: “He surely had the intention to kill his companion.”. It uses murderer and murdered. Here’s the crux. You are implying the ‘victim’ is innocent, when the hadith clearer states he is not because they were both fighting, and both had the intention to kill one another. You are deliberatley trying to twist meanings, something which is a trademark or self-confessed apostates. Call it a vague reference; at least it was first in your post and I picked it up from there. No, I believe David first made some clumsy references to it. I can't laugh enough, because you're playing hide-and-seek with particular denominational preferences that best speak to your aspirations. A couple of questions for you: WHERE in the Qur'an did Allah mention ANY SUCH BRIDGE over Hell? If Allah has not mentioned any such bridge, what hadith is sufficient to hold that Allah has promised such a bridge and yet did not say a word of it in the Qur'an? Is it not written that Allah has declared that he has everything in the Qur'an? Then from where in the Qur'an is there a mention of any such bridge that we have to smuggle in the idea of a bridge that is non-existent in the Qur'an?[/quote][/quote] Be honest, the very fact that you are puzzled as to where Ibn Kathir got the “bridge” from shows you do not even understand how he has gone about putting together his commentary. The bridge over hell-fire, is narrated from a hadith of the Holy Prophet (saw). That is where Ibn Kathir has got it from. Yes, hadith form a crucial part of Islamic theology. As for your Question about it not being mentioned in the Quran: show me where are Muslims shown the method of prayer? They arent. We get that from the Sunnah of the Prophet (saw). Or what about Mahdi or the coming of Jesus (saw)? Where are they in the Quran? They arent, but we obtain them from the words of the Holy Prophet (saw). I've had no issues with anyone on Sura 19:71 other than that those who are pretending a "bridge" over hell should just throw that joke in the bin. No such bridges exists over hell - and I make bold to say that anyone who devised that idea was playing words on the Qur'an. The Holy Prophet has stated that there is a bridge over hell, and this Sira’at is a well known part of Islamic theology. So its only you and your chums at Answering Islam that have these doubts, when you lack understanding of other matters (i.e. what the hadith is and its importance). So if the Holy Prophet has said there is a bridge, we believe him. What You think we are going to believe a bunch of apostates on this matter over our own dearly beloved Prophet lolAnother question I would like to ask here is this: Firstly I try not to act as a Scholar for I am not one. So if you are sincere in your question then ask a learned scholar. But I will give you the best I can. Firstly, what basis do you have to call this a fabricated hadith? If you say hadiths are fabricated, then stick to your guns and never quote me anything from them? But anyway, let us look over your silly fabricated point to the real matter. Is there a bridge over Hell? Does the Quran explicably say there is no bridge over hell? Give me the verses. I don’t think it does. You are falling for a common fallacy here. Just because the Quran doesn’t mention the Sira’at, it doesn’t mean that the Quran says there is no bridge. This example shows your flaw: In Peter’s speech on medical advancements in the 20th century, nowehere did Peter state that theft is wrong. Thus, Peter thinks theft is good. The above is flawed logic to arrive at such a conclusion. So unless the Quran inexplicably states that there is no bridge over hell (Sira’at), you cannot deduce that this Sira’at doesn’t exist. By that very logic, nowhere in the Quran does it state that 2+2=4 (just an example) therefore are you going to conclude Muslims don’t believe that 2+2=4 Of course not.This is the reason of the Hadith because it gives us more information as it’s the word of the Holy Prophet. What are we going to settle for - take Muhammad's word and jettison the Qur'an? Believing Muhammad when he says the Sira’at exists does not jettison the Quran. If the Quran said the bridge does NOT exist, and Muhammad said it did, then yes you could call that contradictory. So there is no jettison of anything here. In fact by believing Mthe word of Muhammad we are obeying Allah, for Allah has said in the Quran: 7:158 Say [O Muhammad]: "O mankind! Verily, I am an apostle of God to all of you, [sent by Him] unto whom the dominion over the heavens and the earth belongs! There is no deity save Him; He [alone] grants life and deals death!" Believe, then, in God and His Apostle-the unlettered prophet who believes in God and His words-and follow him, so that you might find guidance! That's more like the cry of a loser - where do you think I'm coming from? I'm a Christian convert from Islam, and if I didn't know this much, why would I have been able to even enter into this debate at all? You know Arabic? Anyhow, let me give you a little something more to the point that indeed Muhammad himself said that EVERYONE will enter Hell: I’ll be honest and say Ive never heard of Sarwar. But even his translation doesn’t say everyone (Muslims included) will be thrown into hell. It says taken to. I can take you to the pond in the park, but it wouldn’t mean I throw you in there! So refer to other translations also. Or better yet, you know Arabic, so what does the verse say? Let's see if he was stating what in fact Muhammad taught or what the other tafsirs hold: Frankly, you need to look at the verses around it. I assume you have just copied and pasted these from AI so you are not knowledgable of the surrounding verses. If you are, please tell me do you own these books, or do you have a link to them online, so you can post those parts around this verse. When it says “you”, who is it talking about? Look back and the “you” is referring to those that are “worst in obstinate rebellion against”. How did you arrive at the conclusion that this refers to everyone including Muslims? 3. Muslims say this hadith in question is fabricated? How so? Provide your evidence. This is funny. You believe this hadith that says “everybody will initially enter hell”, yet you say the hadith in which the Prophet (saw) talks about the bridge, is fabricated Keep consistant please. Which one is it to be? Are hadiths fabricated or not? If you say yes, you’ve discredited both hadiths and you are left with no argument, and if you say no, then you are left with a refuted argument. Also, please reference the above hadith properly. This is the problem with not being original and pasting somone elses work…you are left running around trying to reference it for them. On the one hand, Allah says everyone enters Hell; No, look at the verses of 19:71 that you’ve posted for crying out loud! It doesn’t say enter, but “arrive at”, or “taken to”. then Muslims run to the aid of fabricated hadiths to build a fictitious "bridge" over Hell. Bros, it will not work - there's NO SUCH bridge over Hell; and the earlier Muslim wake up to that fact, the better for them. Again I have caught you out. Why is hadith A fabricated but Hadith B not? I’ll read up more on the matter, and get back to you when I do  |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 5:01pm On Jul 18, 2007 |
I would love to spend all day debating with you, but unfortunately I dont have the time. BUt you dont need me to teach you. You can find out about these conflicts for yourself. Good luck! Peace |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 4:59pm On Jul 18, 2007 |
@ triptonic, nice tete a tete we have here eh, maybe i should also open up with your obviously false "greetings". So you have conceded to my orginal point: Muslims are in the media a lot more and are potrayed in a negative light. Also glad you finally conceded that the Tigers are in fact a secular group that often use suicide bombings. That is good. Even you should know that is absolute hogwash! If the Iraqis are "fighting for independence from subjugation by western powers" why are sunnis bombing shiite mosques and shiites kidnapping and killing sunnis? Are they western powers? Why are the kurds not fighting for independence too or are they no longer part of iraq? The sectarian strife is no more than idiotic massacres. That has nothing to do with the resistance. It is the resistance that is fighting the Americans and their collaborators, in order to expel them from their land. The line of thought you have used is common for people that do not understand what is happening in Iraq. They just see it in a simple minded USA vs Iraqis (and group the resistance with sectarian murderers), when it clearly is not the case. Maybe if you had kept your suicide bombers, fatwas and days of rage to urselves we wont even care to know if islam is a religion or a cult. You get what you asked for awww see muslims sniveling. They must be really oppressed indeed what a pity! Where are the muslims who are "killed daily" and who are the ones killing them? Americans, Jews, Russians or Germans? Last i checked the muslims in Iraq, Lebanon, Darfur, Pakistan, Palestine are so busy killing themselves that at this rate there will be no muslim left in the next 20 years. Please provide sources for your statements just like I have done at every single point. To think Muslims have killed each other in far greater numbers than non-Muslims have, is just silly. Now here's the hypocrisy of your statement, if indeed western powers are "oppressing" muslims why are muslims the largest block of immigrants to these same "oppressive" western nations? Why don't you all deport urselves enmasse in protest for this o so painful "oppression"? Doesn’t that follow? If indeed Muslims are the most displaced people in the world, the people that need to flee their countries, doesn’t that confirm my point that they are probably one of the most oppressed groups in the world? Two of the largest immigrant groups to the UK were Afghan and Iraqis. Whats the link? Both countries are under murderous occupation, so track back and look at what is causing the mass emmigration from their own lands. Nice to see you conceded tomy point about the failed states. I agree, Afghanistan was so safe that its citizens were glad to see the taliban go. Sorry that doesn’t even make sense. The popularity of a regime has got nothing to do with how safe that place is. Unless you can prove otherwise, I stand by my statement that Afghanistan on the whole was safer than it is today. Back then you didn’t have to worry about having bombs dropped on you, being shot at in the market or your house raided and your family taken prisoner. I should know, Im Afghan. You mean with all the wealth of evidence linking the "magnificent 19" to al qaeda you can still come up with this tripe? This must be the joke of the century, the taliban actually considered giving OBL to the US? who are u fooling? Another simple argument. Sources will aid me. There is no ‘wealth of evidence’ linking OBL to 9/11. If there was, the US would have charged him with such a crime, would have clearly stated it on his Most Wanted Page (like clear references to his involvement with Tanzania/Kenya) but there isnt. Did you miss the quote I gave you? Here it is again, clear as day: When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11." ( Muckraker Report ) Furthermore, you fail to prove how the Taliban are actively recruiting foreign terrorists. No the Egyptians and Jordanians are not involved in palestinian affairs simply because they don't care and "palestine" is nothing but a tool in the hands of islamists to achieve the goal of destroying the jews. Filistine? Need i remind you that the ancient filistines died out well before the 5th century BC and were certainly NOT arabs! There is a difference about not caring about a people and actively oppressing them. Please answer this two questions and i will not bother you on this issue again: Both questions you can find using Google. But they are not relevant. Are you disputing the oppression of Palestinians today because of what happened decades ago?? Lets talk about today. It’s the Israelis who are the main oppressing force of the Palestinian people. Do you dispute that? Really? Your warped sense of logic defies belief! What land would the Lebanese army be defending? The very lands that have been over-run by a foreign funded terrorist group it no longer has millitary control over? Why do you cry "defend your land" when Isreal retaliates but keep mute when hizbullah uses those same lands as launching pads to attack Isreal? Smacks of hypocrisy doesnt it? Lebanon was being attack from all possible avenues by the Israelis. If they really cared they would have defended their land, though some actually did. Note how the Lebanese Christians were such loud mouths but when the war started, they were nowhere to be seen. Hezbollah are a Lebanese group, made up of Lebanese. Prove me otherwise. Where else do you want these Lebanese fighters to fight from? Its their land, they are Lebanese. I give you the words of PM Siniora himself: “Lebanese PM Siniora: Hezbollah played important role in liberating land from Israel. Israel`s reaction is disproportionate. High time Israel gives back occupied territory of Shaba.” Glad you conceded to my point about Somalia. Isnt it amazing that you conveniently ignored the fact that Saddam INVADED kuwait and had to be driven out by US forces in 1991? Or is it only "invasion" when it is the US army and the muslim world turns a blind eye when the invading force is muslim? Yes, the secular leader Saddam did invade Kuwait back then. And the US attacked back then. Does that justify this Iraq war happening today Yes that was an invasion, did I say it wasn’t? But you keep on bringing up the past to justify present actions. He did also kill a lot of Kurds, and? Saddam was a brutal dictator, an oppressor and murderer and was a friend of the US back then. I get this funny feeling you expect me to defend Saddam when clearly he’s just as bad as Bush, and was a Secular leader. I'm sure the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait had UN backing. The US does not need to invade Zimbabwe neither are we bothered, Zimbabweans don't go around bombing innocent people in the name of Mugabe! Are you living in the past? Why are you refuting my points about the current 2003 invasion of Iraq with what happened back in Kuwait? The invasion of Kuwait was wrong. FACT. Happened and the consequences followed. Now we’re talking about 2003, keep up. Was the 2003 Iraq War backed by the UN. Want sources? The second part is sweet. Tell me were Iraqis bombing innocent civilians in the name of Saddam? Did Iraq ever attack USA or UK in recent years? So that was the justification of the Iraq war: the fact (read lie) that Iraqis were international terrorists, attacking USA or other western countries? The very fact that the Iraq war was a preemptive strike (words of the US) shows there was no provocation to attack. They didn’t attack to respond to any act of aggression from the Iraqi side. They attacked based on lies that Saddam had WMDs, and could launch an ICBM within 45 minutes at the UK. Want sources? It is easy to cry about invasion when it happens to be the US or Isreal. Where were you when Syria invaded and occupied Lebanon for 25 years? Were was I? I wasn’t even born. Hows that for you. So far the conficts around the world that I have been around for and old enough to understand all centre on invasion by western powers. Are you going to ask me how I felt about the Syrian invasion back then even though I wasn’t on this earth? Again, we are taking current events. Why do keep bringing up the past to justify the present. I have no problem with you highlighting the conflicts in the past sure. But you can’t expect to use those events to justify current ones. Its like saying the justification for invading Iraq was the Syrian invasion of Lebanon. WHAT??!! Where was this muslim world when Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1991? I dunno, I wasn’t there. So lets keep it to events that are recent. Compare Iraqi death toll in 2003 to that in 2007 and it is clear more than 90% of deaths are not from US guns but from muslim suicide bombs! Remove your blinkered glasses, it only takes a few brain cells to work that out! Why stop at 2003? Compare your 2007 to 2001 and tell me what the reason was? Were there any suicide bombers bombing Iraqi markets in Saddams time? The US admits Iraq is a lost war, a total disaster. They will leave Iraq in a worse state than when they entered. Another article that feeds your propaganda? No thank you. Awww robert Fisk again? We have thrashed out his lies elsewhere on this thread, too late. No, its not Aljazeera. It’s a reputable British newspaper. Why in such denial? Isrea DID NOT attack Lebanon, she attacked a legitimate threat using Lebanon as a convenient shield for its crimes. Erm…yes Israel attacked Lebanon. It was IDF that crossed over into southern lebanon, it was Israeli planes that bombed Lebanon “back to the stone age” and it was Israel that shelled southern Lebanon as well as enfore a naval blockade. Next, how many Israelis died during these “6 years of Hezbollah rocket fire”? Sources please. Next, it is a fact that Israel had far more deadly weapons than Hezbollah. You may want to compare these little ball bearings which only killed a relatively few civilians (43) to the cluster bombs dropped on Lebanon that killed hundreds. Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today 13000 rockets? Please tell me that was a typo and not a blantant lie? Provide proof (which you will not find to back up your figure) or withdraw your statement. So why did Israel level the civilian suburbs of Beirut if they were after Hezbollah? That was deliberately targetting civilians, courtesy of the “only democracy in the middle east”. “According to media reports, the USA is transferring GBU 28 bunker-buster bombs containing depleted-uranium warheads to Israel for use against targets in Lebanon.” “There are also reports that Israel has used vacuum bombs in this conflict.” “There are reports that Israel has used incendiary weapons, such as white phosphorous shells, in attacks in Lebanon.” Source: Amnesty International [url=http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,2095871,00.html] EU: Israel Uses "Disproportionate Force" in Lebanon[/url] (Are you going to claim the European Union is a propganda machine too?) No they did not achieve their aims because to do so would have meant the complete destruction of Lebanon since hizbullah's idea of war is to wear burqas and fire rockets from their grandfathers living room so they can cry about "oppression" as soon as Isreali bombs land in retaliation. Lets quote, you are saying Israel’s aim was complete destruction of Lebanon. We all knew that, but thanks for the confirmation. Again, I ask why Israel completely levelled a civilian suburb (well away from the frontline and no way near rocket launch sites) in southern beirut where hundreds died. Why bomb civilian structures like power plants, bridges, roads, etc? Now we know most of those accusations are false and stage managed by pallywood to whip gullible people like you into a frenzy. And Hamas and Fatah are innocent bystanders in this Isreali "dastardly kidnappings"? What a bunch of decietful demons! It would be wise to read the article before making yourself look stupid. The Israeli secuirty forces themselves say: “Another Israeli security source said an undercover unit had gone to Jenin to arrest the three men, but "al-Saadi identified them and fired," lightly wounding one soldier.” So are the Israeli Security forces part of this Pallywood nonsense…lol Also, it is an act of state terrorism for a state to carry out assasination on others, regardless if they are 'terrorists', according to the UN. Perhaps you might be more interested in the number of civillians who were killed by Hamas in their invasion of Gaza. Care to know how many civillians have died in the Lebanese army onslaught on palestinian refugee camps yet? Can you keep a coherent argument. We were talking about Lebanon and you suddenly jump thousands of miles south to Hamas. Care to refute my figures on the Lebanon war? No, then you conceded that Hezbollah killed more miltary and IDF killed more civilians. Period. Maybe because the IDF don't launch their own rockets from living rooms, mosques, synagogues and on busy streets. If you think outside your islamic fog of deception that should tell you something too. Look at the figures my friend. Which super duper rocket can be launched from the southern suburbs of Beirut The figues reveal who murdered more.Irrelevant tripe! Maybe the Isrealis should teach the Lebanese how to build bomb shelters for their citizens and stop hizbullah from using residential buildings as millitary posts. I doubt if anyone has invented smart bombs that can pick out terrorists in burqas firing rockets from a busy market! Relevant actually. You said, “Do i also need to demonstrate how difficult it is to pick out an enemy that chooses to launch missiles from mosques and residential houses?” And I responded with how was it possible for Hezbollah to achieve precision using inferior weapons, that resulted in nearly three times more military deaths than civlians, yet Israel, with state of the art weapons, managed to kill nearly two/three times civlians as they did Hezbollah? That is a point to ponder. And it is very relevant. I haven’t gone off on a safari and brought up another conflict into question from another time period like you often do. the one source i provided about hamas ideology and you fled the thread in shame. Your "sources" here are nothing more than propaganda conveniently chosen to aid your selective amnesia. You did? I must check it out. This is the first time I have seen you document your opinion using sources and references…it’s a miracle  My sources cant be propganda because I have quoted western newspapers, Amnesty International or UN, the FBI, etc etc…not even a mention of Aljazeera. If you regard everything as propganda, you must be blind to world events, because I must ask where you get your info from?? As for the bold part, that’s how a debate usually works. I argue my point and you counter, with sources if need be I hate to argue with liars honestly? Hizbullah had nothing to do with capturing Gilad Shalit (even though they are presently negotiating over his release), the murder of 4 of his colleagues in a transborder raid that sparked the war? If I has said the above that “Hizbullah had nothing to do with capturing Gilad Shalit” then indeed I am a liar. But you have misread, as I never said such a thing. What I said was the reason for the summer war was not the capture of the 2 soldiers. Israel planned it months before ( a premeditated attack). And I have quoted no other person than the authoritative man on the issue, Ehud Olmert, the Israeli PM himself. You CANNOT claim even he is propaganda or Pallywood “Preparations for Israel's war in Lebanon last summer were drawn up at least four months before two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped by Hizbullah in July, Ehud Olmert, the prime minister, has admitted.” Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,2029732,00.html So the IDF captured their own soldier just so they coould go practice bombing raids on "innocent" hizbullah terrorists? Why would I make such a statement that can easily be verified by research? I don’t. Unlikne your tamil tiger statement. Please see above for clarification since you have misunderstood. I agree, very few countries can endure almost daily bombings of innocent kindergarten children for 6 years unprovoked. Conceded again, thanks. Also, can you give me a source for these awful and constant rocket attacks that killed so many during 2000-2006. Thank you. Conceded that Beslan isnt in Chechnya. Good. Yeah, the rest of us don't care what happens to our brothers killed by terrorist bombs and air craft hijackings. Well that’s your problem, because we do. And here’s a newsflash for you: 9/11 was wrong wrong wrong! Where is the proof of muslims killed in china? Who is persecutting muslims where? The same muslims who go about persecuting christians? Source time! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Muslim#Persecution_of_Muslims_in_China I agree, both Muslims and Christians are being killed there by the Chinese similarly. So there isnt any point to argue here. The muslims are the ones fighting themselves. this idea of blaming everyone for your own self inflicted problems is getting too threadbare. Spin another believable tale. The rest of us are tired of your constant whinning. So the US is not occupying Iraq or Afghanistan, or helping with the Somalia occupation? If you are tired of the constant whining, get western troops out of Muslim lands. And if these Muslims are still stupid enough to kill each other, it wont be any of your problem so you needn’t worry nor listen to any more whining anymore. Let me know when you hear of mass murder of muslims in western countries. hypocrites! Although Muslim are discriminated against, there is no mass murder of Muslims in the West. So what’s your point. We agree then? Who is subjugating you? that the subjugation you all cry about ONLY occurs in muslim nations says a great deal. I would have spared a thot if you were being subjugated in Europe or America. But instead you loud mouthed liars and murderers run to the west, enjoy rights that are NOT available in your theocratic dictatorships and start bleating about subjugation. Define Subjugation= conquest: the act of conquering It is the western powers that are conquering muslim lands. FACT. America has invaded and occupied which other non-muslim land that you want me to cry about?? If they are killing innocent non-muslims in non-muslim lands, tell me, because I will also lambast them for such murder. Which Christian country is being occupied by another Muslim country? Answer that question first before you continue whinning about subjugation!The fact is USA/UK are occupying Muslim lands namley Iraq and Afghanistan. Yes I enjoy a bit of freedom from being bombed by a B52 here in the west. And I would also love for my fellow Muslims around the world to enjoy the same freedom of not being killed or slaughted in their own lands. Whats the problem there? For example I much prefer living in the UK than say Egypt, which is a ‘democratic’ friend of the US, where they torture and imprison their people. Same goes with Pakistan. Such toadies like Musharaf, Mubarak, and various other Arab rulers need to go. They have sold their countries to the West, and do nothing for the interests of their people. Muslims want them out! Give us our own rights to knight anyone we choose without declaring a day of rage on us! You have the right to knight Elvis if you so wish. Go ahead. Be my guest. Don’t expect us to cheer in the streets about it, but yes, go ahead. Give us a right to be able to go to work on trains without fear of satchet bombs.If I could, I would. Give us the rights to go to work in skyscrapers without fearing another 9-11. If I could, I would. Give us the rights to demand rights in afghanistan as christian groups.Give us the rights to read bibles in Saudi Arabia just as your own qurans fill our libraries here (even though you cry that we subjugate you). Just as soon as we can do the same in the Vatican. Give us the rights NOT to have our daughters be forced to wear headscarves to school in Kano. Just as soon as democratic western countries like France and secular Turkey let us wear the headscarf. Muslims love to demand what they deny themselves and others. Sons of a pillaging murderer and peadophile! What lovely words of a Christian! Pilgrim, here’s another perfect example to further argue my case in that other thread: “Sons of a pillaging murderer and peadophile!” Not even you liars give your own criminals the rights not to be sentenced to jail so stop crying. What? Convicted criminals don’t have a right to NOT go to jail…lol…what kind of a jucidiary is that?? Lol Read it again, it makes no sense. So you want us to free our criminals Until you stop gathering to plot attacks against western nations for no reason at all, long may you continue to be turtored in secret prisons. Firstly, nothing happens without reason. Only someone ill-formed would say such a thing. Here’s the crucial difference between me and you. I vehemently denounce 9/11 and 7/7 etc. I also vehemently denounce Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, Iraq etc. Yet you support Gitmo and the torture of Muslims and at the same time support the Iraq war, Afghanistan etc. So tell me, where is the love? Me or you? Whose the bloodthirsty one? You murderers did not even accord Theo Van Gogh the right not to be slaughtered in the streets in his own country! Yes that was a wrong action. But that is one criminal action compared to a whole myriad of oppression, and killings (like Haditha etc) that happens to Muslims. One vs Many. The same rights you granted the German tourists killed in Jordan for "walking on islamic lands"? Hypocrites! How can I be a hypocrite when I condemn all these murders On either side. By definition, a hypocrite must denounce the killings of Muslims and support the killings of Westerners like Van Gogh. That is NOT the case with me. I condemn both. However, maybe you would like to look at yourself. You seem to have no problem with the killings of Muslims (even support their torture), yet you condemn the killing of Van Gogh. Not hypocrisy there? So long as you keep the death and oppression in your own countries people like me could care less. Of course, tell us something new. You don’t give a damn about how many Muslims or non-Muslims are killed in foreign lands (i.e. if it doesn’t bother you, you don’t care). Like Ive always said get the troops out. What a two faced hypocrite. What right have muslims in pakistan to protest against the decision of the British government to knight a British citizen? Was he knighted in Pakistan? Of course you all quickly use the law when it suits your evil and selfish demands. They can voice their opposition if they want. Whether you feel it is justified or not, they can do it. What happened to freedom of speech here? Is the UK a dictatorship where no-one is allowed to critisize the governments actions? No. Qurans i'm sure are allowed in the vatican, the pope has prayed in a mosque before! Are bibles allowed in Saudi Arabia? Bibles are allowed in Saudi, if kept privately. But I have no qualms about the Vatican. If Catholics want a place that is solely for them and their churches, in land with a Catholic majority, then fair play. They can have it. Catholics can have the Vatican and Muslims can have Mecca and Medinah. Awww see the sons of belial. Use the very freedoms of the west to destroy them. so since the west claims to be democracies they have to pander to your every whim? You demand rights in France that are non-existent in your 12th century backward nation of afghanistan? If you want to wear headscarves please go back to Iran where they arrest women for not wearing them properly! Can I also tell the Christian ex-pats in Saudi to get lost back to their own country if they want to build Churches or openly express their faiths? (no, because Im not a bigot) Yes both Muslims and the West has these restrictions on religion (e.g. banning headscarves in France and banning open declaration of faith in Suadi. But this is the crucial difference: Saudi doesn’t and has never claimed to be a democracy, nor have they ever boasted their freedom of religion. But the Western France states it’s a democracy, has freedom of expression and religion and all that stuff. That is the difference. Why should the west not ban headscarves? Fine, the West can ban headscarves. If they really think Islam is a threat, that they feel they must ban the headscarf, then so be it, let them ban. But if they ban, then I don’t ever want to hear these countries gloat about how democratic they are, or how they have such glorious freedom or speech or religion, of about how tolerant they are. That is the crux of the matter. Tell us our rights in afghanistan first before we listen to you! Can i walk around Kandahar with my girlfriend in jeans? Not many, but when has Afghanistan ever claimed to be a democratic or free country On the other hand, the West does. lol you don't even have any rights so what can you be asking for? Muslims slaughter themselves around the world, they don't need US bombs to help them. So Muslims have no rights now? I cant say Im surprised at your attitude…oh the hate, the fear the despising us Muslims. I can feel it through your words. How it must be so painful carrying all that hate around with you. yup dear, so much misinformation, bold faced lies, hypocrisy and propaganda from you my boy. Try not to throw stones if u live in glass houses! Show me the lies! I have refuted your points to death. Are the Tamil Tigers a Hindu Group? See how points you have not answered of mine because you were wrong. I can accept I’ve given you propaganda if I used Aljazeera (although theres nothing wrong with them), Al-Manar or IRNA. But I havent. I have used: Wikipedia Guardian Independent News.com.au (article first read on yahoo news) FBI themselves Ehud Olmert Fundforpeace Amnesty International (could also look at UN here) European Union 9/11 commision report Washinton Post If you discredit these sources as propaganda then you really are left blind. These are hard hitting sources, that you cannot refute. Maybe cross reference your post with sources then I will be able to take you more seriously, and you have a better position to shout Hypocrite/Liar/etc. This could well be my last post to you, because he do not meet my standards of debate, if you post misinformation, no sources an have a basic understanding of world affairs. Good day. Peace! |
| Religion / Re: Is Jesus Christ God? by Tiptronic: 1:14pm On Jul 18, 2007 |
@ Pilgrim, Be fair now. Nohing in that post can be called slandering. I think it is legitimate debate, and seems to be kept civilised, Where has he called Jesus (pbuh) a pedophile? Where has he called Jesus (pbuh) a murderer? Where has he called Jesus (pbuh) a hypocrite? Where has he called Jesus (pbuh) a madman? Where has he called Jesus (pbuh) a liar? etc etc ad nauseam, Those are just the typical insults and blatant hateful slanderings against the Prophet (pbuh) which you see thrown about to 'discredit' Islam. I stand by my point. Peace |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 4:57am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Greetings! @ tiptronic, your ability to manipulate truth and your propensity for revisionism is beyond belief. Some dodgy and biased video? I prefer to deal with better sources. Palestinian oppression is very much a real issue that happens. Why are you denying it? As for maniplulating the truth, Ive given you a lengthy reply that should keep you occupied. You need to inform yourself on a few issues raised before you can accuse others of lying or ignorance. Ive also littered the post with sources and references. Maybe you wanna try the same? Peace! |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 4:53am On Jul 18, 2007 |
@ tiptronic, i very much appreciate your attempt at rationalising the issue of islam and its continous bleating about a peace that exists only in the imagination but like all muslims you have chosen to serve us a diet of 20% truth and 80% falsehood. I will attempt to point out the inherent flaws and gaping holes in your poorly researched treatise. Greetings! We'll see. [Quote]Christianity is equally portrayed poorly in the media. Dan Brown perhaps caused a much larger furore than the Danish cartoons did when he wrote the davinci code. the same blasphemous book has been made into a movie and yet NO ONE is declaring a day of rage. In the US, prominent men of God like Jerry Falwel and Pat Robertson are reviled and labeled "christian extremists" and yet no one is shedding crocodile tears. Perhaps you would be more honest with yourself if you admit that the reason islam is so much in the news is because of YOU! Like millions of Americans and perhaps Europeans, i never gave islam much more than a fleeting thought until 9-11. [/quote] No. Christianity is not protrayed in the same light as Islam. You can only name two labelled 'extremists'. Pretty much every Muslim that appears on the media is labelled an "extremist". Just have a look at the news and tell me is Islam or Christianity in the news more? Please don't insult my intelligence. [Quote]A point of note - the tamil tigers are a hindu based group and not secularists; at least you have not labeled them christians. There is a HUGE difference that you have conveniently chosen to ignore. The Tamil tigers are fighting a battle for independence. They don't go around bombing Kenyans, Americans, Germans, Spaniards in the name of their hindu god. [/quote] See this is easy. Its a simple factual case that can be verified easily. The tamil tigers are not a 'hindu group'. The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, popularly known as the Tamil Tigers, is an avowedly secular rebel movement of the country's Tamil ethnic minority. It carried out scores of suicide bombings from the late 1980s until a cease-fire in 2002. The conflict between the Tigers and the government, which is dominated by members of the Sinhalese majority, began in 1983 and claimed an estimated 65,000 lives. Source. That should have cleared that up for you, as there is no need to make incorrect statements like that. I never said they do those actions in the name of their hindu god. If anything, by claiming they were secular, that would be obvious that they dont do such actions in the name of God. Try to stay consistant. They are fighting for independance? Just like the Iraqis are fighting for their independance from subjugation by Western powers? Does that excuse their actions. You may also want to enligten yourself a bit more on the Tamil Tigers either through Wikipedia or read this. Here is the question you should answer, what was the purpose of bombing Bali, 9-11, 7-7, Nairobi? Why was a nun in Somalia killed for the comments of a Pope in faraway Rome? The first three were terrorist actions. Unjustly targetting civilians, just like the Tamil Tigers do. The last was petty criminals, and they were caught up with by the UIC. [Quote]The media would care less if muslims restricted their evil activities to Pakistan, Iran and other muslim enclaves. No one is interested in what Osama looks like, all we ask is that he keeps his bombs and evil ideology to himself. Trust me, no one will shed a single tear if terrorists decided to kill other muslims in the name of allah.[/quote] Maybe you could also keep your bombs of their lands? Now there's a thought. [Quote] Africans are more impoverished than muslims, have had to endure centuries of slavery (also perpetrated against them by the arab world) and still have to deal with everyday cases of institutionalised racism - why are they not bombing everyone? 6 million jews went through gas chambers during the 2nd world war and yet Germany has not had a single case of suicide attacks from an aggrieved Jew. What special form of "oppression" are muslims always crying about? [/quote] Racism? Im sure the thousands of Muslims that are oppressed and killed daily would rather endure this 'racism' tham what they are suffering. The Jews pretty much got what they wanted: their own state, strict laws of anti-semitism which leads to some nice immunity of their crimes, massive and unwavering support from the worlds super power, what more could they ask for. It seemed to work out pretty well for them. [Quote] Sierra Leone, Liberia, Congo Democratic are examples of countries steeped in civil war and yet we are not hiding in bomb shelters.[/quote] Those countries aren't occupied by any super power. But all of them (afghanistan, sierra leone, liberia and DRC are all failed states, civil war destroys countries my friend) What "peace" was afghanistan gaining under the taliban? the peace of the graveyard? The same taliban that served and still serves as a recruiting ground for terrorists and provided a safe haven for al qaeda? The peace you are obviously unaware of. After the Taliban swept through the country, there was no civil war in the areas controlled by them. Afghanistan was a hundred times more safer than it is now. The Taliban dont recruit any foreign terrorists. That is nothing more than ill-informed opinion, that I suggest you back up with proof. America decided to attack, invade and occupy Afghanistan based on the assumption that Bin Laden was responsible for 9/11 despite the Taliban requests to show proof in order to hand OBL over falling on deaf ears, and despite the fact that the US has no actual evidence against OBL. 9/11 is nowhere to be mentioned on OBLs Most Wanted FBI page, and here's the reason why: When asked why there is no mention of 9/11 on Bin Laden's Most Wanted web page, [Rex Tomb, Chief of Investigative Publicity for the FBI] said, "The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden's Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11." ( Muckraker Report ) Let's be sincere here, who is oppressing the palestinians? As at 1948, the westbank (judea and samaria) belonged to Isreal, before it was invaded and captured by Jordan during the war of independence. Gaza belonged to Egypt before 1967 and was being used as a base to launch attacks at Isreal. Who is oppressing the Palestinian people? In case you haven't noticed neither the Egyptians or Jordanians are involved in Palestinian affairs let alone oppressing them. It is clearly the Isreali forces that are oppressing the people of filistine. Why do you Christians have a problem accepting this fact? Is it in your religious dogma to support the Jewish people no matter what? As for the Lebenese, no can say they are surprised. A bunch of cowards who would rather kill Muslims than fight to defend their land during the last summer Israeli-Lebanon war. [Quote] lol the islamic courts was an illegal structure put together by somali islamists in 2000 as a rival to the already existing Transitional Federal Government (TFG) of Somalia! Please remember to remind those who are used to seeing the word "invaders" as refering to the USA that your "invaders" here refers to Ethiopia![/quote] The TFG was completely useless at keeping law and order let alone running the country. Legal or not, the UIC showed how capable they were, when even Western commentators admit that Somalia enjoyed a six month or so period of stability and calm, something which eluded Somalia for years. Who did the UIC invade? Who did they attack? Who did they even threaten to attack? A resounding NOONE. Yet because they were an Islamic group, the West saw to it they were attacked and yet another Muslim country subjugated to foreign occupation. Yes the Ethiopians were the invaders, but surprise surprise, with full US backing and military support. Why do you assume its soley Americans Muslims hate as occupiers? If its the British, Ethiopian, Israeli all the same. [Quote] 1. There was no war in Iraq pre-2003 but it was embroiled in a bitter 8yr war of attrition with Iran, the same Iraq invaded Kuwait and Saddam killed millions of kurdish minorities with chemical weapons. Amazing that the muslim world has been silent about this only to jump to 2003 as if Iraq was always a paragon of peace. Dont forget that Saddam is known to have payed families of suicide bombers![/quote] You call that justification for war with Iraq The fact that they were at war with Iran (which ended in 1988, nothing to do with 2003) almost two decades prior, meant that the US was justified to attack What kind of warped logic is that? Attack and occupy countries that are at war with someone else! You have to be joking.Iraq's link with 9/11 or OBL turned out to be a lie (dont argue with me on that, argue with the 9/11 commission report) and the infamous weapons of mass deception never materialised, but hey, at least we got rid of a dictator!! The Iraq war was illegal, without UN backing and flawed from start to end. When can we expect America to invade other countries with dictators, like Zimbabwe etc? 2. Lest i forget, the problem in Iraq is not really caused by the invading Americans but by sunnis and shiites who think the only way to settle disputes is by bombing themselves to jaanat! NO, the problem is always occupation. Occupying and stealing a countries natural resources is never right. It only takes a few brain cells to work out. Look at Iraq and its death toll in 2002 and then look again at it in 2003 onwards. What was the one determining factor of change, US invasion. Another interesting article you might wanna get your teeth into: Independant Newspaper [Quote] errm maybe you want to direct this to the appropriate quaters - hizbullah.[/quote] There is no way anyone in their sane mind would say that Israeli attacking Lebanon the way it did was a measured or proportionate force. No way. And did they ever achieve their aims? No. Whats the big deal, Isreal is always doing such dasterdly kidnappings and [url=http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21304344-1702,00.html]assasinations[/url] Perhaps i also need to remind you that Lebanese are not only made up of muslims. 60% and? The Bekka valley and sourthern Beirut suburbs were very much Muslim though. Do i also need to demonstrate how difficult it is to pick out an enemy that chooses to launch missiles from mosques and residential houses? The figures speak for themselves: (wikipedia) Lebanese combatants dead: 600 (taking max est) Lebanese civilians dead: ~ 1000 Israeli defence forces dead: 119 Israeli civilians dead: 43 The MAJORITY on the Israeli side were military, while the MAJORITY on the Lebanese side were civilians. Tells you something. How were these guerilla fighters able to maximise military fatalities, yet kept civilians deaths to a minimum, but the Israelis (with US supplied smart bombs and high tech equiptment) managed to kill twice as many civilians as they did Hezbollah? Do we need to prove to you that the isreali victims of hizbulah's 6 yr indiscriminate and unprovoked bombing campaign that provoked this war are also humans who just don't happen to be muslim arab? Firstly, provide sources like I have done so tirelessly. Hezbollah attempted to carry out cross border attacks against IDF military, and capture soldiers, which once proved effective at negotiating prisoner exchanges. But that had nothing to do with the summer war. The war ignited over the capture of the Israeli soldiers and the attack on their patrol (supposedly) Fact was, Israel was going to attack anyway, it was just a matter of time. [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,2029732,00.html]Olmert said sohimself[/url] [Quote] The most shocking abuses in Chechnya are by the muslims themselves. Beslan anyone?[/quote] Beslan isnt it Chechnya And beslan happens all the time in Chechnya. You can stay informed by checking out this news agency: Kavkazcenter.com [Quote]What a silly claim. Are there no muslims in india?[/quote] Yes there are. Did I say otherwise? So if Nigeria goes to war with Cameroon over Bakassi you will claim it is another act of aggression against muslims? The fact that you need to cling to spurious and unreasonable claims such as this is proof that you really are just looking for any excuse to justify the unjustifiable. OK, can you justify Indian rule over Kashmir? [Quote]There are equal and if not worse examples of christian persecution in those countries most especially China. Why are the muslims the only ones always in a rage?[/quote] Because Muslims care what happens to their brothers on the other side of the world. The fact that some Christians were also persecuted in China doesnt justify the killings of Muslims there. You do acknowledge the persecution and suffering of Muslims in such places dont you? [Quote]If you are only at peace when your environment is peaceful, then you can't really claim to be a peaceful individual. Being peaceful is when you can stay calm in the midst of a storm. Islam is only a "peaceful religion" when everyone submits to them. [/quote] Exactly @ the bold part. And right now, countless wars are being waged on Muslim lands, so its only natural for them to react. [Quote]The usual victims excuse. At this rate one would think only muslims understand what persecution means. the same muslims who persecute christians in their own enclaves. What a bunch of hypocritical murderers.[/quote] Let me know when you hear of mass murder against Christians in these Muslim enclaves. Because at the moment it seems the Christian West is doing all the killing of Muslims. Question: do you expect Muslims to be subjugated like this and not fight back? [Quote] What rights? The same rights they deny others in their own enclaves? Do those rights include trampling on the rights of others? What rights do muslims have to denounce the knighthood of Salman Rushdie when bibles are forbidden in Saudi Arabia? What rights do muslims have to demand headscarves in France when they deny christians the right to build churches in Kano?[/quote] The right not be slaughtered by a 2000lb bomb from a B-52. The right not to be piled naked into pyramids and humiliated in prisons. The right not to be caged without trial and tortured in secret prisons overseas. The right not to be shot at or killed in your country. Etc etc ad nauseam. I'm talking about death and oppression in a grand scale here. Muslims have ever right to voice their opposition to any Knighthood, is that against any law. Are Qurans allowed in the Vatican? As for headscarves, remember its the Western democracy of France, the civilised country, the one that boasts religious freedom and all that tripe that is banning such a thing. Muslims have never claimed to be shining democracies etc etc , but the west does yet, hypocritical as they are, ban the headscarf. What rights do you have to emigrate to another country and then demand that things be done your own way? All the rights of that country actually. Don't know where you live, but here, its every citizens right to scream at the top of their lungs what they want and how they want it. Whether anyone will actually listen to them is a seperate matter entirely, but to answer your question, people have every right to do so, apparently. Muslims who seek spurious "rights" should learn to go back to their backward 12th century caves and demand their rights there! Why should be bother about Human Rights, when we are losing the very Humans those Rights are supposed to protect? But I suppose its OK to kill and slaughter Muslims around the world. Quite a bit of misinformation presented there David. Did you think I wouldnt know my stuff? Wise up my friend, and provide sources and references like I have if you want to maintain integrity. Peace! |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 2:46am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Pilgrim, I really don't know what point you're trying to make. This is just foolish and I can't have a discussion based on some random video you have plucked, and fail to make clear what your point is? Go ahead and make it clear. Are you saying all these reports of dead Palestinians are actually fake and that they arent killed? The thousands of Palestinians that have died over the years have in fact been auditioning for a movie? There is a dedicated movie set by the name of Pallywood set up in Palestine to direct fake movies? Why am I wasting my time here? As for proganda, its been around for as long as an organised media has been. Everyone uses it around the world. You should really know that. How about you post some real news article about the palestinians that we can easily debate, or do you still believe the palestinians are not being oppressed? |
| Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 2:27am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Pilgrim, Why give the impression you are making a point, when you can't actually make the point? This started from my original comment that those who commit suicide are to punished in the hell fire, as is stated in the Quran: 4:29 , And do not kill yourselves (nor kill one another). Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you. Hadith - Bukhari 7:670, Narrated Abu Huraira And then you answer with a very vague reference to 19:71, which we shall examine for your benefit. 19:66 Man says: "What! When I am dead, shall I then be raised up alive?" Honestly I think the above is quite clear. It does not come close to suggesting everyone will enter the hell fire. If you are still in doubt, let us look to the Tafsir Ibn Kathir on these verses (although they are pretty clear IMHO) Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement, So now its ovr to you. What exactly is it that you are arguing. Oh and if you disagree with translator of the Quran, whom without which you would be left dumbfounded as to what the Quran meant, then you should go and learn Arabic so you will have no need for translators. Peace. |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 1:42am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Pilgrim, I think it is safe to say that this clip in itself is propaganda of sorts. It is obviously biased coming from an American director. It is quite absurd to suggest that the Palestinian suffering is one big movie set with actors, directors, make-up people and cameramen. Its quite an insult to be honest. The clip in itself shows no sign of any research. It has one scene all the way through of a particular event, which it fails to document properly, location, date etc, and just gives its own commentary on the matter. Not worth a discussion point to be honest, else I could post many videos of some real persecuation, which is no acting and we could debate that. Peace |
| Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 1:35am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Pilgrim, But what is this supposed to mean? You need to state clearly what it is you are trying to argue for. Are you trying to say all humans will enter the hell fire? And you could maybe seek the translations of others such as Yusuf Ali, Shakir etc, since no translation can be 100% accurate. @ Weslayan, thanks for the explaination. Yes, I suppose its similar in Afghanistan too. We have many many ethnicities, languages, tribes etc. It really is a patchwork of differences and diversity. The pashtuns make up the majority and are generally in the south and east of the country. There are the other ethnic groups (Hazaras, Uzbeks, Tajiks,etc) many of which speak Dari. So yes, complicated stuff lol. |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 1:17am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Greetings Pilgrim, So please do tell me who is oppressing the Palestinian people? Who has them under occupation? As for your clip, I don't think it is needed here, nor proves much. It looks quite old, and without further information, I can't really comment. Of course there will be bias in such a shady video clip. But tell me straight what your point in posting it was? Is it to prove to me that in fact the Palestinian people are being killed and oppressed and anything they say is just pure propaganda? Peace |
| Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 1:06am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Wesleyan, I myself am from Afghanistan. Truth be told, I don't know a great deal about Nigeria, but I always thought it was pretty much 50/50 Muslim/Christian, with the north/south divide. So there are also enclaves of Muslims down south then? |
| Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 12:47am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Greetings! I apologise David, but I fail to see your point. The Surah says (and it always helps to read before and around it): 19:71 And every one of you will come within sight of it: [55] this is, with thy Sustainer, a decree that must be fulfilled. Please would you care to explain? WesleyanA, I have only joined now, so I haven't yet familiarised myself with the workings of the forum. I must confess Im not Nigerian, but one particular friend of mine (a Christian no less) is Nigerian and is such a nice person. Words fail me, but he has never said I word to hurt anyone, even if it be in jest. I generally find the very few Nigerians I have met to be extremely pleasant people. I suppose I just get on well with Africans in real life. It just clicks. |
| Religion / Re: Sharia: Thou Can Commit But Thou Must Not Be Caught by Tiptronic: 12:37am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Hamas openly advocates an islamic state Greetings, I will believe this ye truthful one, when i see proof. Peace |
| Religion / Re: Islam And Peace by Tiptronic: 12:31am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Greetings, The reason why much of the violence seems to be coming from Muslims is multi-faced. Firstly we have the issue of potrayal of Muslims and Islam in the Western media, arguably the most powerful media outlet across the world. It just so happens that Islam bashing and sells for these people. It gets them viewers and readers. But the media definately focuses and scrutanises Islam and Muslims a lot. The Middle East is probably one of the most volatile regions on the planet, hence it will of interest as the scene of world coverage for decades to come. For example: Did you know before the sectarian violence in Iraq, it was actually the Secularist Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka that held the record for most suicide bombings? Can anyone put up their hand and tell me they knew this fact? Most probably not. We all automatically assume this phenomineon is soley attributed to Islam, even though its root stem in Seculrism. You see its what we hear on the media that shapes many of our views. The media will continously go on about suicide bombings perpetrated by Muslims, but they will not give so much airtime when its other places. In a way, its a case of misinformation by ommission. There is no doubt the Muslim world is steeped in a lot of violence. But only a fool will take this statement at face value and not look beyond. It is also a fact that Muslims are amungst one of the most poverished and persecuated people across the world, in number and place. Muslims are being oppressed a lot throughout this world. Naturally no-one likes oppression, and you cannot expect people to be oppressed in silence. Look at Afghanistan- Afghanistan was already a war-torn country before, suffering badly at the hands of the Soviets and others before. But when the country was finally gaining some peace, especially the majority of the country under Taliban control and not the frontline to the North East, Afghanistan is ruined and massacred yet again. Palestine - a people oppressed on a daily basis, prisoners like they are; can you expect there to be no violence? Somalia - a similar story to Afghanistan. There was a much needed lull in years of violence when the Islamic Courts came to power. But when the invaders entered, we see how Somalia has decended back into chaos. Iraq - there was no war in Iraq pre-2003. Yes, millions of children were dying at the hands of the sanctions imposed on the Iraqi people by the United States, but the death toll was nowhere near this high. The bloodshed in Iraq is overwhelming, but that can only be expected when a certain country sees fit to invade and occupy another soveriegn nation like that. Lebanon - we had the war last summer, well can I call it a war? It was more like a massacre by the Israeli planes and troops. It was the Muslims of Lebanon that had death fall on them from the skies. Chechnya - a convenient story that the world media gives next to no coverage of. After all, who would want to know about how the Russians are slaughtering the Muslims in Chechnya on a daily basis? The abuses and deaths in Chechnya are shocking, yet out of the worlds sight. Kashmir - again, the usual story of an occupation of Muslims by India. And there are many more examples of suffering Muslims in China, in Buddhist majority Myanmar, India, Philippines, Of course in a time of peace Islam is a peaceful religion with a peaceful following. But at the time of war, when faced with death and persecution, don't expect Muslim to allow themselves to be trodden over. They will be loud, and demand their rights and take up arms if necessary. Peace |
| Religion / Re: Is Jesus Christ God? by Tiptronic: 12:00am On Jul 18, 2007 |
Greetings, Such a simple question, that is at the heart of Christianity, yet you have uncertainties, different thoughts etc about it. Doubts on such a fundamental issue strikes at the very heart of Christianity. Notice this. When people try to discredit or disprove Christianity, they he plenty to choose from ranging from this question, the Bible, the Trinity etc (all fundamental and crucial parts of the religion's dogma). For example, when have you ever seen a Muslim need to resort to slandering against Jesus Christ? Never. Yet look on the other hand, and the only things Christians and others can muster when trying to disprove Islam, are things that are not the fundamental core tenets of the religion. They always seem to pick up things like suicide bombings, terrorism, Muhammad's marriage to Aisha, etc etc. Sign of the Ultimate Truth Peace |
| Religion / Re: Moslems Are You Ready To Commit Suicide? by Tiptronic: 11:49pm On Jul 17, 2007 |
Greetings, The Holy Quran expressly forbids any Muslim to commit Suicide. Hell is prescribed for such a person. So how the Original Poster can infere that it was the Holy Book which taught him to do this is insane, when it inexplicably forbids such an action. Poor man, may Allah have mercy on him. There is no such need to resort to such extreme measures. We must face the hardships as they are a test, and not take such a ill-fated route. I think its safe to say that this is a relatively isolated case. Peace |
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