@Enigma:

2 Cor 9:7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

^^^ That's not my point, Enigma. When Paul said "every man . . . what he has decided to give", it is on the premise that they have a CHEERFUL attitude to the giving. AND THAT is my point when I say you don't choose what to give.

If I choose what to give, I may as well give $1 when I have $ millions stashed up somewhere. THAT is my point!  

Your walk with God is brought to bear upon your giving, from the cheerful heart that HE has created in you, to give out of.

So, which brings me to the point I am making: since you don't choose what to give, if anyone gives to God cheerfully, whether (s)he calls it a tithe or no tithe, when he has DECIDED in his heart to give as much and to what purpose, it is well with him/her.

You have started misunderstanding me. Do you now see why I do not like extended arguments, Enigma? It's because very soon meanings will get blurred and confusion will set in.

It appears like it is still an Enigma to you, Enigma. You don't choose where to give your money to, and you don't choose how much you give 

@Enigma:
^^^ I have a strong impression in my spirit to reply you here, otherwise I wouldn't.

Joh 3:8 You know well enough how the wind blows this way and that. You hear it rustling through the trees, but you have no idea where it comes from or where it's headed next. That's the way it is with everyone 'born from above' by the wind of God, the Spirit of God."

If by "A tither of today", you mean a Christian who chooses to tithe, and not a conned person who is tithing perforce, or an anti-tither, or a Jew who tithes according to the old covenant, then the answers to your questions are in Jesus' statement above.

A Christian who chooses to tithe, unlike all the categories above, does not pay tithe, or does not refrain from paying tithe; but GIVES a tithe to someone / somebody (organizations inclusive) representative of God.

In that case, the person has the leading of the Holy spirit, and should follow His leading diligently. God may tell you to give your tithe to the family across the street, or to another church where you don't worship, or to a member of your church and not the pastor, or to an unknown location. Those that are led by the spirit are not stereotypically defined. The important thing is to be obedient to God.

Psa 50:10 For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills.

If God instructs me to give 10% of some money I just made in business to someone/somebody, and I know my life is not my own, and I am only a steward of the money and not the owner, then what is the problem? As Christians, we need to always keep that at the back of our minds: all this money talk. . . you don't even own the money in the first case.

@Enigma:

I have some "old" questions for you; I will put them in another post.

Don't bother, I will probably not attend to the thread, since they are old questions. I don't believe in unnecessary arguments, and I won't be saying anything new. Remain blessed.

Did it occur to anyone that Matt 23:23 says

Mat 23:23  "You're hopeless, you religion scholars and Pharisees! Frauds! You keep meticulous account books, tithing on every nickel and dime you get, but on the meat of God's Law, things like fairness and compassion and commitment--the absolute basics!--you carelessly take it or leave it. Careful bookkeeping is commendable, but the basics are required.

Which places tithes, judgment, mercy and faith as aspects of the law? If tithing, not weighty enough, has been abolished, how much more the weightier matters as Christ said: judgment, mercy and faith? Have you guys abolished them as well?

Because I believe the way things work, the weightiest of matters with respect to the "law" will be abolished first, and not the least significant? 
Mar 3:27  Do you think it's possible in broad daylight to enter the house of an awake, able-bodied man, and walk off with his possessions unless you tie him up first? Tie him up, though, and you can clean him out.

@Enigma: There are three statements in question, you say. Now see this:

1. Tithing compulsorily is abolished.
It's great that you agree with me on this statement, but you are yet to provide empirical statistics to show how majority of tithers do it compulsorily. We are waiting, please don't make it an Enigma for us.

2. Tithing based on the law is abolished
Enigma, is your secondary school education abolished because you went to the University? Viaro has dealt with this on this thread, and I don't want to re-belabour the points.

3. Tithing is abolished
Now to adjust and accommodate this lie, you are making an exception on Abrahamic tithes? Your goalpost just became mobile, sir. Congrats and regards.

By the way, please reflect on what it means for something to be abolished, as opposed to being fulfilled and thus no longer compulsory for sustainability.

Also, recall that tithes have nothing to do with perfecting any believer, in light of v19. So what are we on about? Is v19 then talking about tithes? That is a very, very narrow way of forcing the scriptures to indicate something that it isn't.

@viaro: You flatter me. and thanks for the post above. Remain blessed!

@Viaro: Once again, we're on the same page It's like we always think alike?

You summarized my point here:

Actually, I believe with you that circumcision is not "abolished" as such - rather, the circumcision done with hands is no longer the basis of a covenant relationship that we have with God. I hope I have managed to put it in simple terms? Let me expatiate.

And then went on to explain it in clear details.

Let me shock you now: but you no try o, my guy. See your name in Full caps: VIARO. Why didn't you reply my email? Na fight?

@Enigma: What was abolished in the Old Covenant is the compulsion of tithes and circumcision, and not the acts or the ideas themselves! But we are entitled to our opinions, as long as we don't mislead others thereby. Have a great week ahead!

@Enigma: Abuse is the result of unbeknown purpose. Did you ever ask WHY God asked the Jews to be circumcised? It was not only for spiritual value, it was for medical reasons, to keep them healthy and sanctified.

The circumcision that was "abolished" is the removal of the notion that a full grown man has to be circumcised before he can be considered Holy before God. If it is easier to circumcise a baby, and it will be good for his health then it is entirely foolish not to circumcise the child because "circumcision has been abolished". Circumcision was not abolished, I repeat. Rather, it is no longer compulsory to be circumcised before you are holy unto God.

Do you see this in light of your argument on tithes being abolished? To see it, you need to ask: WHY did they tithe to God in the first place? If you cannot answer that question then the same fallacy of "circumcision being abolished" that you made above, will be made again.

@KunleOshob: It would be better next time to say it in full "Tithing compulsorily is abolished", and not "Tithing based on the law is abolished" or "Tithing is abolished" because the last two statements are wrong. And when you say what is preached in MOST churches, how are we to believe you? What is your statistical finding on this point? When you rally against the twisting of the scriptures, you should not also twist the scriptures to support your own points, saying tithing has been abolished.

@Viaro: Na so, my brother. That was why I googled anselm.com tithes cos I wondered when I got to anselm.com

Enigma:

Can you sustain that statement when I just said: ?

Yes I can sustain it with the fact that you insist that "tithing has been ABOLISHED", rather than saying that tithing is no longer compulsory, but done out of an act of love.

That's my point.

Enigma:

Yep "precept by precept" indeed. But ask yourself this: which side is forcing something down the other's throat? Is it not the overwhelming majority that insist that "tithing" is compulsory? Are we the minority opponents of compulsory "tithing" not simply challenging that which is being forced down people's throat repeatedly?

Also, how do you do it "precept by precept" - especially on a forum as this as opposed to face- to-face or one on one discussion - without challenging misuse and abuse of scripture?

I think I have been doing that on this thread so far. I have told a story, made numerous references, etc. But then, maybe that's just my opinion, thinking its precept by precept.

It is not simple to take down a house whose foundation is deeper than its height above ground. Some of these people have been fed with untruths from both camps of forceful-tithing and anti-tithing.

Enigma:

Yep "precept by precept" indeed. But ask yourself this: which side is forcing something down the other's throat? Is it not the overwhelming majority that insist that "tithing" is compulsory? Are we the minority opponents of compulsory "tithing" not simply challenging that which is being forced down people's throat repeatedly?

Also, how do you do it "precept by precept" - especially on a forum as this as opposed to face- to-face or one on one discussion - without challenging misuse and abuse of scripture?

Precept by precept? Tell me, Enigma. Do you not understand that whatever you give attention to, in the spiritual, multiplies in effect? The more you decry tithing, the more people will tithe out of fear. THAT IS HOW FEAR WORKS, MY BROTHER! And I'm surprised that you don't know that. Preaching anti-tithing will just increase the number of those implementing compulsory tithing. Rather, let them see the truth as well.

Truth? There are two lies running around:

1. Tithing is EVIL and wrong. (Ministry of anti-tithing, will prevent those who seek to tithe genuinely)
2. Tithing is a must, otherwise you will suffer (Ministry of fear)

I will not support either lie, but rather I will endeavour to use Scriptures to clarify my position to either party without generating strife.

Edit:

Enigma:

Did you see this posted earlier?

The way you go about your views on tithes, you make it appear like you have no regard for those who tithe out of understanding, like I do sometimes. And trust me, I have good understanding of how tithes work for me.

Enigma:


In relation to the bit that I have emphasised:

1. Have you heard of a statement that goes something like: "you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"?

2. Should the pastors trust (or not trust) the person who made that statement --- instead of preaching a lie (i.e. compulsory "tithing"

3. Do the pastors preaching the lie not believe, "my God will supply all your needs"?


Now, I want to make some statements (instead of questions). Believe me this: Christianity is about renewal of the mind; if a person becomes a Christian whose mind is renewed (and keeps being renewed), he will not have problems with being generous whether to the poor or in giving for the advancement of the universal church which, I emphasise does not mean a building or a building project or such nonsense.  The very reason people are "tithing" or even "giving" out of fear is that they don't know the truth --- either because of their own intellectual inadequacy (which might not even be a fault), intellectual laziness (which is a fault) or being deceived by "pastors" preaching a lie (which is worse of all).

Thus the first thing is that pastors should preach the truth and leave it to God the Holy Spirit to renew people's minds and challenge them to give generously as they purpose in their own heart.  Do you know that the preaching of the lie of tithing actually hinders the gospel rather than advancing it?  This is what saddens some of us and motivates us to keep challenging the false teachings!

(Further Edit to clarify: some people are stingy and do not tithe/give because they do not know the truth).

1. Of course!
Joh 8:32  Then you will experience for yourselves the truth, and the truth will free you."
Joh 8:33  Surprised, they said, "But we're descendants of Abraham. We've never been slaves to anyone. How can you say, 'The truth will free you'?"
But the question is, how is truth expressed, when one, like the Jews who claimed they believe in Jesus, believe they are not "slaves"? Is it by forceful arguments?

2. I never said pastors ought to preach lies, take note. I said it is unfortunate that some pastors do so. Some, also preach compulsory tithing out of ignorance, what they have come to believe themselves by rote memorization.

3. Well. . . what can I say? That is an eye-sore of the heart!

See, Enigma, we should not confuse one thing here. Tithing is not wrong, and it is not a lie. Saying that pastors should never preach about tithing is wrong. It is more correct to say that pastors should, if at all, preach about tithing the right way: so that those who have hearts to tithe would do so and not out of compulsive fear. Tithing is not a false truth, but forcing money out of people's hands in the name of fear is what is wrong. There are still pastors, like mine, and like Pastor Tunde Bakare, who have accurate knowledge of tithing and they live by it.

I hope you understand me now.

Edit: See what viaro just said. It expresses my mind accurately. Thanks, viaro!

viaro:

Compulsory tithing and anti-tithing are both unspiritual adventures for the Christian, and people who try to force the one or the other seldom realise the seriousness of what they do.

Enigma:

Your idea is good but it has several problems:

1. It does not take account of the fact that people like felifeli will tell you that "tithing" is not the same as generosity

2. It does not take account that they will tell you that you should not give your "tithes" to the poor ---- contrary to what the Bible says very clearly!

3. It does not take account that Christian giving (or generosity if you like) is not done out of fear that if you are not "generous" or do not pay "tithes", the money will be taken away by armed robbers, medical bills etc . . . .

I can go on and on about these kind of problems with your statement - but I think there is already enough food for thought.

PS if you search the forum, you can find gazillions of posts by me, by Kunle and by many others that: if a Christian knows that there is no obligation to "tithe" but chooses to do so, we have no problem with that ----- in fact, Kunle just said so in one of his last posts on this very thread.

Enigma, the thing is that I do not believe in forcing spiritual principles down people's throat. That is the way of the mule. Or in telling them what to do without any explanation: the way of the horse.

Psa 32:8 I will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.
Psa 32:9 Be ye not as the horse, or as the mule, which have no understanding: whose mouth must be held in with bit and bridle, lest they come near unto thee.

Rather, I believe in laying down precepts step by step and clarifying any step for those who dont understand.

The "facts" that a pastor has drummed into someone's ears for decades cannot be simply unearthed by using arguments. One must open their eyes and see for themselves: precept upon precept.

@Enigma: As to your first set of questions,

1. Yes, it is not only "possible", but I believe that is the case.

2. Yes, it is a worthwhile exercise, but in the procedure of the exercise it is necessary not to generate strife in the body of Christ, arguing over whether tithes are to paid or not; because tithes or no tithes, its our hearts that God ultimately judges. I sincerely believe that this thread has provided a lot of information for those who really want to know what to go with.

3. It is unfortunate that many so-called Christians do not have a heart to give, and so some pastors have to MAKE them give by instituting tithes and declaring it compulsory, driving fear into their hearts if they do not pay the tithe. It is very unfortunate, and it makes me really sad. If the people would independently have a heart to give, pastors wouldn't need to resort to such things. They would tell them the truth.

See how this applies to giving out of love, and to paying tithes out of fear.

1Jn 4:18  There is no room in love for fear. Well-formed love banishes fear. Since fear is crippling, a fearful life--fear of death, fear of judgment--is one not yet fully formed in love.
1Jn 4:19 We, though, are going to love--love and be loved. First we were loved, now we love. He loved us first.
1Jn 4:20  If anyone boasts, "I love God," and goes right on hating his brother or sister, thinking nothing of it, he is a liar. If he won't love the person he can see, how can he love the God he can't see?
1Jn 4:21  The command we have from Christ is blunt: Loving God includes loving people. You've got to love both.

You cannot be truly generous without loving people and God. But, driven by fear, you can "pay" tithes without loving people, and without any wholesome regard for God.

@Enigma: I counter felifeli's statement, and I say this, sir

Psa 112:1  Hallelujah! Blessed man, blessed woman, who fear GOD, Who cherish and relish his commandments,
Psa 112:2  Their children robust on the earth, And the homes of the upright--how blessed!
Psa 112:3  Their houses brim with wealth And a generosity that never runs dry.
Psa 112:4  Sunrise breaks through the darkness for good people-- God's grace and mercy and justice!
Psa 112:5  The good person is generous and lends lavishly;
Psa 112:6  No shuffling or stumbling around for this one, But a sterling and solid and lasting reputation.
Psa 112:7  Unfazed by rumor and gossip, Heart ready, trusting in GOD,
Psa 112:8  Spirit firm, unperturbed, Ever blessed, relaxed among enemies,
Psa 112:9  They lavish gifts on the poor-- A generosity that goes on, and on, and on. An honored life! A beautiful life!
Psa 112:10  Someone wicked takes one look and rages, Blusters away but ends up speechless. There's nothing to the dreams of the wicked. Nothing.

We should never blur the distinction between tithes and generosity. Jesus kept on preaching about generosity of material things, generosity of heart (selflessness), generosity of spirit (a craving for things of God, above physical things). What felifeli said in the quote above applies to generosity, and not to tithes.

One may not pay tithes and yet be generous, and be established in peace. The MOTIVE counts very much with God.

@KunleOshob / Viaro: We may disagree that tithing was abolished in the New Covenant or it was not, but we have one common point: we agree that it is not compulsory or perforce. If then tithing is not compulsory or perforce, I personally don't see why those who want to go ahead and give it (not compulsorily) should not!

@Viaro: hehehe. What leaves off from you and goes around, sits in your closet and waits for the day you will open it! BTW, check out anselm.com today and you will be surprised.

@Joagbaje: Excellent, sir. Just excellent. Thanks for sharing.

@kunbee: How would I disagree? Aya won lode. Iya won lode.

@Kunbee: Yes mummy

@Kunbee: Don't you like my joke ni? And don't you call me your son anymore, you hear?

The tree was not evil, it was just like every other tree except for the fact that eating from it would make them sentient: consciously perceiving. It was their disobedience that was a sin, the tree was totally harmless on its own.

If God had told them not to swim in a particular river, and they did, sin would have still set in anyway. So would we then say the river was evil? No. All that God made was good.

Sin was brought into being by attributes of disobedience, pride and rebellion in Lucifer, which were fruits of HIS OWN decision.

@Romsky: hahahaha. You dig?

@Abu Zola: Yes, I know. My pidgin english is still in infant stage but I felt the joke would be better in pidgin. Thanks!

It's Abu Zola again. This is just a light-hearted joke aimed for Christians, and not at Christianity. May you be blessed.

A child actually said all of this!

I have outlined all the whoopsies in red.

Creation

In the beginning, which was close to the start, there wasn't anything except God, darkness and some gas. The Bible says, "The Lord, thy God, is one," but I think He has to be much older than that.

Anyway, God made the world and then He said, "Give me some light," and somebody gave it to Him. He split an atom and made Eve. Adam and Eve didn't wear any clothes, but they weren't embarrassed because God hadn't invented mirrors, yet.

Adam and Eve sinned by eating one bad apple and they were driven out of the Garden of Eden. I'm not sure what God drove them in because He hadn't invented cars, either.

Adam and Eve's son, Cain, hated his brother as long as he was Abel. After a while, all of the first people died, except Methuselah, who lived to be, like, a million years old.

Noah

The next important person was Noah. He was a really good guy, but one of his kids was a Ham. Noah built a big boat in his back yard and put his family and a lot of animals in it. He asked his neighbors to join them, but they said they would have to take a rain check.

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and Joseph

Next were Abraham, his son Isaac and his grandson Jacob. Esau was Jacob's brother, but Jacob was more famous because Esau sold him his birthmark for some pot roast. Jacob had a son, Joseph. Joseph wore a really loud sports coat.

Moses

Moses was the next important man. His real name was Charlton Heston. Moses led the Israel lights out of Egypt because of the bad Pharaoh. God sent ten plagues on the Egyptians. Some of the plagues were mice, frogs, bugs, lice and no cable.

Every day in the desert, God fed the Israel lights some manicotti. He gave them His "Top Ten" commandments. They were things like: don't lie, don't cheat, don't dance, don't smoke, don't covet your neighbor's stuff (whatever that means). He also told them to humor their fathers and mothers.

Joshua

Moses' best helper was Joshua. He was the first person to use spies. He fought the battle of Geritol. That's when the fence fell down on the town.

David

David came after Joshua. They made him king after he killed a giant with a slingshot.

Solomon

One of David's sons was called Solomon. He had, like, 300 wives and 500 porcupines. They told us in Sunday School that he was a really wise man, but that doesn't sound too wise to me.

Jonah and Other Prophets

After Solomon came a whole lot of major league prophets. Jonah was one of them. He was swallowed by a whale, then barfed up on the beach.

There were some other minor league prophets, but they weren't too important.

The New Testament

When the Old Testament was done, they started the New Testament. Jesus was the Star. He was born in a barn in the town of Bethlehem. I wish I had been born in a barn, too, because then, when my mother says to me, "Close the door. Were you born in a barn?" I could say, "As a matter of fact, I was."

Jesus argued a lot with the Chief Priests and Democrats. He had twelve opossums. Most of them were good, but Judas Asparagus was not. He was so bad, they named a really yucky vegetable after him.

Jesus healed some people and leopards. Then He preached to the Germans on the Mount. But the Chief Priests and Democrats were mad at him and put Him on trial. Pilot was too chicken to stick up for Him, so he just washed his hands.

Jesus died for our sins and came back to life again. He went to heaven, but will come back at the end of the aluminum. We can read about this in the Book of the Revolution.

What's Really Important

One warm summer evening a mother was driving with her three young children. A woman in the convertible in front of them stood up and waved. She was STARK unclothed. As the mother was reeling from shock, the five year old said, "Mom, that lady isn't wearing a seat belt!"



Ketchup

A mother was struggling to get the ketchup out of the bottle when the phone rang. She asked her four year old daughter to answer it. She heard her daughter say, "Mommy can't come to the phone. She's hitting the bottle."


Beauty

A little boy watched, fascinated, as his mother covered her face in cold cream. "Why do you do that?" he asked.

"To make myself beautiful."

When she began to rub it off, the boy asked, "Why are you doing that? Did you give up?"


Children and Childbirth

The baby was coming way too fast so the paramedics were called. To make it worse, when they arrived, there was a power outage. The paramedics asked the four year old sister to hold the flashlight for them.

Despite the difficulties, all went well and the mother delivered a baby boy. The paramedic smacked him on the behind and he began to cry.

Looking over at the wide eyed little girl, the paramedic asked her what she thought about what she had just witnessed. She said, "That naughty boy should have never crawled in there. Spank him again!"


Day After Christmas

The pastor was looking over the crèche the day after Christmas when he noticed that the baby Jesus was missing. He went outside and saw a little boy pulling a new red wagon. In the wagon was Jesus.

We walked up to the boy and said, "Hi, there. Where did you get the baby Jesus?"

The boy answered honestly, "In the church."

"Why did you take him?" the pastor asked.

"Well," said the boy, "I prayed to the Lord Jesus and asked him for a wagon for Christmas. I told Him that if He gave me one, I'd take Him for a ride in it."

First of all, I must apologize. My pidgin English is only manageable 

There was once a Nigerian hunter, very powerful and feared by all the animals. He could also speak and hear the animal languages. He once went on an expedition in the jungle, but he slipped and fell in the river, almost drowned, and lost his gun, weapons and magical amulets. Shivering, cold, and vulnerable, he was wondering how he would survive.

So, wandering about, he notices a leopard heading rapidly in his direction with the obvious intention of having him for lunch.

"O boy I don enter yawa!", he exclaimed. Then he noticed some bones on the ground close by, and immediately settled down to chew on the bones with his back to the approaching giant leopard. Just as the leopard was about to leap, he shouted,

"Nothing dey like leopard meat o! Kai! Those wey dey chop 404 never chop better meat. I fit still see another leopard chop sha?"

Hearing this, the leopard halts his attack in mid-stride, as a look of terror comes over him, and slinks away into the trees. "Whew," says the leopard. "Na small remain sha. E for don BE for me be that."

Meanwhile, a monkey, who had been watching the whole scene from a nearby tree, laughs and figures he can put this knowledge to good use and trade it for protection from the leopard. So, off he goes after the leopard as it runs away. The hunter saw the monkey and knew what it was up to, so he sat down on the ground backing the two of them.

The monkey soon catches up with the leopard, spills the beans and strikes a deal for himself with the leopard. The leopard is furious at being made a fool of and says, "Here monkey, hop on my back and see what's going to happen to that conniving hunter."

The hunter sees the leopard coming at full speed with the monkey on his back, and thinks, "What am I going to do now?" But instead of running, he pretends he hasn't seen them yet ,  and, just when they get close enough to hear, he shouts,

This monkey na mumu o! Sho! E don tey wey I send am, shey e never reach make him bring me another leopard? 

Davidylan, I was looking through all the religion topics, too! I found out too that most new topics are not engaging and the best topics are in the past, sometimes a new post resurrects them into the present. What happened to the people you listed? Were they banned?

@woye77: Tithing is important, but not compulsory. Love is compulsory. Faith is compulsory. Tithing is important, but you must understand it.

It's probably even better to take the money, throw a party, invite your friends and blast the money; than to drop the money perforce because you see it as a compulsory thing.

Did you really read the article by Pastor Bakare? I am not a member of his church, but I can say surely that It's enlightening!

Really cool!

You're welcome, Viaro. Actually, YOU led me to the post. I did not even know that Tunde Bakare said all of the above, until some minutes ago. I saw anselm.com in your post #141 above, wondered what it was, googled anselm.com tithes, and a nairaland thread dated November 28, 2009 came up as 2nd result. On that thread, YOU and chukwudi44 were discussing.

This thread: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-358631.0.html

YOU also mentioned anselm.com there, and then later posted this very link. That was how I read the article and re-posted here. How's that for a dose of karma?